do teachers always write with perfect grammars?

[ksinger]

About the grammar issue, of course teachers make mistakes, just like everyone else.

About the parenting issue, I teach 7-8 year olds, I have no children of my own, and I have no experience teaching or working with the big kids. For those who do, bless you.

I've had students who showed up to school and you could tell they hadn't taken a bath recently. Their clothes were dirty, and so on...There's not much I can do about that other than possibly send him/her to the nurse to find ore appropriate clothing and clean up a bit. I can and do, however, spend extra time with these children. If they act out or are doing poorly with their academic skills, I can modify work, be patient, and help instill a sense of self-confidence. I try to see things from their point of view. I also show them that I truly care about their well-being. Are these things that a parent should be doing? Yes, absolutely. It doesn't always happen though, sadly.

I know this was off-topic but I wanted to address Jennifer's comments. The example I mentioned is just one that I could have given. I don't pretend that I'm this child's parent because obviously I'm not. When the child is with me, however, I do everything I can to make him/her have a successful day.

And bless you for all that Zoe. I know I come across negatively, perhaps because I get to hear the frustration at the end of my husband's day. But I have seen my husband interact with the kids AND their parents. He is no-nonsense but very encouraging, and to the parents he tells the truth with as much respect, diplomacy, and tact that he can. He is skilled in all of those, but pointing out to a parent that their child is failing, and it's likely mostly their own fault, is like treading a minefield, as I'm sure you can attest. And at the age that he gets them, the die is pretty much cast. The heavy "molding" period is generally past, and at that point you can only nudge a bit.

I truly never knew my husband had such a streak of idealism in him. I thought I knew him well, but that surprised me, with as hard-headed (in the sense of realistic rather than stubborn) as he is. But as he points out when I'm ready to bang my head against a wall, you can't DO what you guys do and NOT have that idealism. Those that can't maintain it generally toss in the teaching towel pretty quickly.

As you mention about the child who hasn't bathed, how DO you tactfully take a parent to task for THAT? You want to say, "For God's sake lady, see to it that your child doesn't smell like a goat when he gets here!" (But of course you can't say that, but you're thinking it. And then mom comes in bra-less, wearing a wife-beater and smelling of booze at 9am for that teacher conference. True story. Not making that one up.) If the parent is so remiss that their child is filthy, can anyone think that they are going to be anything but defensive if you point out that fact to them? Even the dimmest parent understands that you are criticizing their parenting skills, and deep down they likely know they've failed, and it makes them defensive. That's just human nature. People are famously irrational and denial-prone when it comes to their kids.

To Jennifer, believe me, teachers appreciate parents with your attitude more than you can ever know. But even people like you have more expectations of what teachers area "supposed" to be doing or noticing or mitigating, than you migh consciously be aware of at any given time. The number of threads over the years that have been opened here on PS to be outraged about some aspect of how teachers are failing to do this or that, are numerous. Bashing teachers for their supposed failures is a perennial national pastime after all. Many parents want teachers to be all things. Bolster my child's self-esteem. And I want high standards....BUT I'm going to be highly pissed if my child comes home disappointed to have not made the grade, and will take it out on YOU. (Here in the US, we now routinely have double-digit numbers of valedictorians, a state of affairs that owes most of its beginning to whining litigous parents) Teach them hygiene and sex-ed say some, others, no way! Teach them morals, but only MINE please, not that other guy's. See them clearly and dispassionately (because I CAN'T) and save them from the fact that they're depressed, even though I refuse to notice myself. The contradictory lists go on and on. And when that teacher fails in some way to function as that surrogate parent, I'm going to sue the school for some sort of negligence.

I desperately wish that the teachers could grade some parents for the job they do or do not do, to raise their kids to be human, and to send them to school clean, nourished, prepared, and focused on learning, and have that grade have TEETH of some kind, kinda like the screws they put to the teachers as supposedly the most important influence on Little Johnny's success or failure (which of course, just ain't so). Pipe dream I know....

 

[Haven]

Swimmer--All of those items you list are so true. I just typed out some more, but realized they're all variations on the same theme that teachers are expected to parent, and educate.

Now that I teach college I cannot discuss my students' performance with parents. I used to joke that it was one of the luxuries of the job, but the truth is that for every difficult parent out there, there are at least a couple fabulous parents. I often wish I could call home and share a piece of really great news with mom or dad, especially when I know a student still lives with his parents. And I definitely miss being able to call home to tell mom or dad that a student is acting strange, and something is definitely amiss.

There are so many wonderful, caring parents out there, too. I always appreciated the fact that I could build a relationship with those families in order to help their children succeed.

 

[Jennifer W]

Swimmer, you have my deep and heartfelt sympathy. That sounds like a list drawn up from bitter experience...

Zoe, seeing neglect like that must break your heart. I can't imagine how hard that is to deal with on a day to day basis. Poor little mites.

Ksinger, I take your point. I have a friend who attends her daughter's school as often as the child, to 'sort things out' and get her own way. She's a very high achiever and projects her ambition onto the kid, with quite unreasonable demands on what seems like a very good (and patient) group of teachers. If I was a teacher there, I would have punched her by now...

I personally have no expectations of teachers here - the ones who taught me were in the main truly dreadful. There were a few exceptions, who were remarkable educators and good people, and the contrast was stark. Mr Beaumont, if you're reading this, you should know that you were inspirational! Based on my own experience of school, my only real expectation is that they don't make things worse(grammar, for example) and keep the homophobia and racism to a bare minimum. I went to what was considered a very good school, so I'm not optimistic about the ones with lesser reputations. My mother taught for over 30 years and she practically weeps over standards now.

 

[zoebartlett]

I actually work in a fairly affluent community, so I don't see the cases I mentioned too often, but it does happen. I have worked in different districts in my state and in a different part of the country where my students' parents weren't so well-off. I actually felt a lot less pressure in these less affluent communities because parents didn't have the same high level of expectations. Of course, I don't mean to generalize, but that's been my experience. There's often a fine line between helping a family out and suggesting things to help the children and overstepping. Honestly, in most cases, I speak to the principal, the guidance counselor and/or school nurse, and then they speak to the parents about hygiene (and/or other) issues. If needed, child services would be called, but I've never had to do that.

ETA: It's funny, the turn that this thread took.

 

[Bliss]

It's nice to have grammar whiz or two here! It's definitely a lost art... I feel like every time I read a board online, it's subconsciously eroding my sense of correct grammar and spelling. The young kids seem to have a much looser grasp on proper grammar and I'm wondering if that's because times are changing and they're being taught different rules? My question is, at what point does something that is grammatically incorrect become acceptable? For example, so many people say: There's things you need to know... Not there ARE things, but there's things (=there is things). To me, that's like saying "My feet is cold!" Does that only sound odd to me? Also, more and more I keep hearing people using phrases like "That's between him and I." Is this now acceptable?

I know the whole point of language is to communicate & I suppose as long as you understand each other the job is done. But gosh, maybe I'm a dinosaur now because the young people mix up plural subjects with singular verbs all the time. Or perhaps they're teaching that in schools these days? Also, it seems like "less" is used now in place of "fewer" - all very minor things but yeah... I feel like a dinosaur at 34!

Speaking of grammar - aside from typos, when it comes to spelling, so many people nowadays spell definitely as definately I think that's the next one to become acceptable in written form!

 

[Jennifer W]

Zoe, it's odd, but when I worked in child protection services, I saw some pretty bad neglect in more affluent communities. It certainly wasn't the norm, but I was surprised at how many cases there seemed to be in quite 'nice' neighbourhoods. We did regularly receive calls from nursery and primary school staff in one of the worst areas to say that a parent had turned up drunk or under the influence of drugs to collect a child. I wonder what chance these children have in life, if their parents will behave that way. Often, the staff only knew there was a problem because the parent had come in to complain about something, obviously drunk or drugged and became abusive or violent. I don't know how school staff cope with that level of difficulty, and I take my hat off to them.

 

[soocool]

I have always tried my best to stay out of the teacher's way throughout DD school years. There were two things which truly irritated me in how the teachers approached teaching in elementary school.

The first thing that drove me up the wall was allowing the kids to spell words based on how they sounded the words out or in other words, incorrectly. I, on the other hand, would make DD correct her mispelled words before turning in her work. This accomplished two things and DD is grateful to me for this. First,it taught DD to use the dictionary and, secondly, DD is one of the very few students who can spell without using a spell checker. Isn't it easier to establish good habits up front rather than to relearn?

The second thing I can remember is her 6th grade teacher giving her a C on a math test despite getting the correct answer. You see, she used algebra and showed all her work. The teacher's response to me was that she wasn't allowed to teach algebra in 6th grade. That had to wait until 7th grade (middle school). Apparently, DD was to take an educated guess as to what the answer should be and show her work for that. A meeting with the principal and teacher quickly changed that grade. Oh, and DD scored an 800 on the math portion of her SAT's.

I am far from knowing if my grammatical usage is always correct or not and I don't know if a teacher's grammatical usage both within and outside of the classroom is correct as well. Kids are subjected to a variety of "speech" and "grammatical" idiosyncrasies in their everyday lives, from the books read in school, (i.e. Tom Sawyer), movies, musical lyrics, magazines, newspapers, and they people they deal with on a day to day basis.

 

[Haven]

I have always tried my best to stay out of the teacher's way throughout DD school years. There were two things which truly irritated me in how the teachers approached teaching in elementary school.

The first thing that drove me up the wall was allowing the kids to spell words based on how they sounded the words out or in other words, incorrectly. I, on the other hand, would make DD correct her mispelled words before turning in her work. This accomplished two things and DD is grateful to me for this. First,it taught DD to use the dictionary and, secondly, DD is one of the very few students who can spell without using a spell checker. Isn't it easier to establish good habits up front rather than to relearn?

It sounds like your daughter's school used a whole language approach. Inventive spelling is often encourage in whole language curricula, and while it isn't as popular today as it once was, the debate over its usefulness still rages on amongst literacy educators. The opposite end of the spectrum would be a phonics-based approach. Today's trend is to try to balance the two.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

I have always tried my best to stay out of the teacher's way throughout DD school years. There were two things which truly irritated me in how the teachers approached teaching in elementary school.

The first thing that drove me up the wall was allowing the kids to spell words based on how they sounded the words out or in other words, incorrectly. I, on the other hand, would make DD correct her mispelled words before turning in her work. This accomplished two things and DD is grateful to me for this. First,it taught DD to use the dictionary and, secondly, DD is one of the very few students who can spell without using a spell checker. Isn't it easier to establish good habits up front rather than to relearn?

It sounds like your daughter's school used a whole language approach. Inventive spelling is often encourage in whole language curricula, and while it isn't as popular today as it once was, the debate over its usefulness still rages on amongst literacy educators. The opposite end of the spectrum would be a phonics-based approach. Today's trend is to try to balance the two.

My kids' school has the students write out words as they sound. When my older son first starting bringing home work with such spelling I thought it was cute and we enjoyed seeing that and I didn't question that method. Now my kids are in 4th and 2nd grade and there doesn't seem to be a problem with them being taught that way... I didn't know that this teaching style is debated. The only thing that bothers me is that the kids haven't been taught to use the dictionary nor does it seem to be encouraged. Actually, from what it sounds like, when they were given student dictionaries last year, the first thing the boys did was look for bad words! That is probably normal though. lol

 

[MichelleCarmen]

This is one of my MAJOR pet peeves. I am a stickler for grammar and punctuation and it drives me nuts when teachers butcher the English language. I don't like it when anyone does it, but to me, it's worse when the people who are educating our children are doing it incorrectly. Have you read the book, Eat, Shoots & Leaves by Lynne Truss? It's a humorous book about a zero tolerance policy regarding poor punctuation and grammar.

My grammer is terrible so I wouldn't know if my kids' teachers made a mistake... but, I wanted to mention that my older son's teacher had recommended a book series (Magic Tree House) that she thought would be excellent for him. A few years later, when my younger son was the same age, a different teacher told me to NOT have my son read that series b/c she said that the sentence structure was terrible. That kind of surprised me considering the popularity of the books!

 

[CaliSun]

do they ever make mistakes with their grammars and spellings?...

A friend's wife is a graduate student of English - - and a teacher.... and can't spell or use correct grammar. It makes me think she cheated on all of her tests!
I'll leave it at this, the grammar and spelling is so confusing and incorrect, that it's hard to figure out the message she is trying to convey.

It is really awful; I'm a little embarrased for her but then again, if you can't bother to use spell check then no one can help you!

 

[packrat]

I clicked on the second page by accident so haven't read the first page. Oops.

Bliss, I say "are things"! I don't know which is proper, but it just sounds better to me to say "There are things I need to do" than "There is things I need to do" I figured since things is plural are is the one to use?

I have one I have wondered about for several years-they built a new middle school here years ago, and there is a big stone wall out along the street at the entrance. It says Welcome, everyone learns here. It just looks weird to me and I've often wondered if it's proper or if I'm just easily irritated.

 

[junebug17]

I haven't read all the responses, but I can't recall any of my children's teachers making any glaring errors. I'm sure teachers make mistakes sometimes, but I would hope the errors are infrequent and minor.

 

[zoebartlett]

Invented/inventive spelling is still alive and well in elementary schools. I encourage my students to write down the sounds they hear in words. We have core words (sight words/high-frequency words) that the kids learn each week and then are required to spell correctly in their daily writing. Other than that, I'd rather have my kids write down the sounds so they don't always get hung up on using a dictionary for every word. This way, they can get their thoughts out and write a complete story. Imagine how frustrating writing would be if you constantly had to look up everything. I know that would turn me off. Basic dictionary skills (and teaching alphabetical order) are taught in first and second grade, usually. My kids know how to use them and I encourage them to use one, but I also encourage invented/inventive spelling.

 

[zoebartlett]

This is one of my MAJOR pet peeves. I am a stickler for grammar and punctuation and it drives me nuts when teachers butcher the English language. I don't like it when anyone does it, but to me, it's worse when the people who are educating our children are doing it incorrectly. Have you read the book, Eat, Shoots & Leaves by Lynne Truss? It's a humorous book about a zero tolerance policy regarding poor punctuation and grammar.

My grammer is terrible so I wouldn't know if my kids' teachers made a mistake... but, I wanted to mention that my older son's teacher had recommended a book series (Magic Tree House) that she thought would be excellent for him. A few years later, when my younger son was the same age, a different teacher told me to NOT have my son read that series b/c she said that the sentence structure was terrible. That kind of surprised me considering the popularity of the books!

I've never heard of a teacher NOT recommending the Magic Tree House series. It's a really good one and the kids learn so much from the stories. One series I can't stand is Junie B. Jones by Barbara Park. Talk about bad sentence structure! I'm all for encouraging reading of any kind, and yes, if those books get someone hooked on reading, that's great. But I won't teach using them and I don't have them in my classroom library.

 

[soocool]

Invented/inventive spelling is still alive and well in elementary schools. I encourage my students to write down the sounds they hear in words. We have core words (sight words/high-frequency words) that the kids learn each week and then are required to spell correctly in their daily writing. Other than that, I'd rather have my kids write down the sounds so they don't always get hung up on using a dictionary for every word. This way, they can get their thoughts out and write a complete story. Imagine how frustrating writing would be if you constantly had to look up everything. I know that would turn me off. Basic dictionary skills (and teaching alphabetical order) are taught in first and second grade, usually. My kids know how to use them and I encourage them to use one, but I also encourage invented/inventive spelling.

I would think that a 5/6 year olds wouldn't be looking up that many words when they begin to write. My DD is in her final year of high school and based on the feedback she gives me, those students who have to hand write their responses in their blue books have received very poor marks from their teachers. But when the type out their responses, their grades improve immensely (thanks perhaps to spell checker?) Answers to mid-terms and finals are put on scan cards so no need to check a student's writing skills or abilities. All I know is that DD and perhaps a handfull of other students received very high scores on an assignment that had to be completed in long hand rather than typed on a computer (journal style). It was in English class and I truly do not know what the point of the exercise was because the parents weren't targeted for the feedback, and according to DD, her fellow classmates only cared that they received a poor grade as opposed to be concerned that they could not spell.

 

[zoebartlett]

Soocool -- Ah, I wasn't thinking of older kids when I posted. Yes, by the time children reach high school, I don't think there's an excuse for words to be misspelled.

I teach 7-8 year olds and I see it all the time. I don't make a big deal of it, unless it's a word that I've taught or I know they've learned to spell in the past.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

Invented/inventive spelling is still alive and well in elementary schools. I encourage my students to write down the sounds they hear in words. We have core words (sight words/high-frequency words) that the kids learn each week and then are required to spell correctly in their daily writing. Other than that, I'd rather have my kids write down the sounds so they don't always get hung up on using a dictionary for every word. This way, they can get their thoughts out and write a complete story. Imagine how frustrating writing would be if you constantly had to look up everything. I know that would turn me off. Basic dictionary skills (and teaching alphabetical order) are taught in first and second grade, usually. My kids know how to use them and I encourage them to use one, but I also encourage invented/inventive spelling.

Both my kids have done journals every year. Maybe they're more creative because they're focusing entirely on their stories rather than spelling. My younger son constantly writes "books," and sometimes comes up to me and asks how a word is spelled. At school, though, he just writes what he is thinking instead of looking a word up or asking his teacher and they have the weekly sight words tests.

RE: the Magic Tree House...even though one of the teachers suggested avoiding that series, both my kids have read most of the books. I pretty much let them read anything within reason. My older had decided he wanted to read Stephen King (lol!) and I told him he has to wait until he's 16. He has read all the Goosebump books. Are those ones considered good? They do seem to be below his reading level, but he loves to breeze through them so seems like they're light fun reading. He did read the first couple of Harry Potter books and I did talk to a librarian and she said they were for 12+ so comprehension could be an issue.

 

[swimmer]

I teach HS Jrs, Srs, and freshmen in college and I CARE ABOUT SPELLING and correct grammatical usage. Usually I just mark up a paper till my head is about to explode and then write "I quit reading here, please write in proper English and return to me tomorrow for a re-grade." A few years ago some fabulous students got me a custom order set of stamps that say "pick a thesis and stick with it," "awkward phraseology," "comma usage," and "are you proud of this work?" Of course, they were awesome students and never saw my commonly used "blah, blah, blah stop writing the same thing over and over," or "do you know what that word means?" That is a huge peeve of mine, using the thesaurus does not make a person "sound smarter" it usually does just the opposite when terms are used incorrectly.

 

[Haven]

Invented/inventive spelling is still alive and well in elementary schools. I encourage my students to write down the sounds they hear in words. We have core words (sight words/high-frequency words) that the kids learn each week and then are required to spell correctly in their daily writing. Other than that, I'd rather have my kids write down the sounds so they don't always get hung up on using a dictionary for every word. This way, they can get their thoughts out and write a complete story. Imagine how frustrating writing would be if you constantly had to look up everything. I know that would turn me off. Basic dictionary skills (and teaching alphabetical order) are taught in first and second grade, usually. My kids know how to use them and I encourage them to use one, but I also encourage invented/inventive spelling.

I think inventive/invented spelling is great for younger children, especially when we consider that writing is not only about creating a final product, but it is also an aid to thinking. I think forcing emergent writers to spell correctly would be an enormous turn off, and it would make writing an impossible tool for them to use for thinking.

I wrote that response to SC because her post made it sound as if her daughter was the only one amongst her peers who learned to spell and use a dictionary as an older student. That comment made me believe that her they were never explicitly taught spelling or dictionary skills, which would be in line with the way *some* whole language proponents teach literacy.

My favorite button says "Apple Piking is my middle name." My cousin made it for me during Apple Fest a couple years ago, and I cherish her invented spelling on that button.

ETA: Zoe--You sound like a wonderful teacher, your students are lucky to have you.

 

[zoebartlett]

Thanks Haven! I'm sure you are too and I wish we could get together and chat. I'm sure we'd have a lot to say!

One of my student's parents has asked me about spelling a few times this year. I don't think she's a fan of invented spelling. She expects everything to be spelled perfectly. I've tried over and over again to explain how it works but she's not happy. Oh well.

 

[Haven]

Thanks Haven! I'm sure you are too and I wish we could get together and chat. I'm sure we'd have a lot to say!

One of my student's parents has asked me about spelling a few times this year. I don't think she's a fan of invented spelling. She expects everything to be spelled perfectly. I've tried over and over again to explain how it works but she's not happy. Oh well.

I agree on all fronts!

I'm sorry to hear about this parent. My friends who teach elementary school are truly the most passionate, wonderful, PATIENT people I know. They face so many challenges from parents, I'm continually in awe of their grace under fire.

 

[ksinger]

Invented/inventive spelling is still alive and well in elementary schools. I encourage my students to write down the sounds they hear in words. We have core words (sight words/high-frequency words) that the kids learn each week and then are required to spell correctly in their daily writing. Other than that, I'd rather have my kids write down the sounds so they don't always get hung up on using a dictionary for every word. This way, they can get their thoughts out and write a complete story. Imagine how frustrating writing would be if you constantly had to look up everything. I know that would turn me off. Basic dictionary skills (and teaching alphabetical order) are taught in first and second grade, usually. My kids know how to use them and I encourage them to use one, but I also encourage invented/inventive spelling.

I think inventive/invented spelling is great for younger children, especially when we consider that writing is not only about creating a final product, but it is also an aid to thinking. I think forcing emergent writers to spell correctly would be an enormous turn off, and it would make writing an impossible tool for them to use for thinking.

I wrote that response to SC because her post made it sound as if her daughter was the only one amongst her peers who learned to spell and use a dictionary as an older student. That comment made me believe that her they were never explicitly taught spelling or dictionary skills, which would be in line with the way *some* whole language proponents teach literacy.

My favorite button says "Apple Piking is my middle name." My cousin made it for me during Apple Fest a couple years ago, and I cherish her invented spelling on that button.

ETA: Zoe--You sound like a wonderful teacher, your students are lucky to have you.

Hubs and I had a roaring discussion about spelling. As usual, I've been edumacated.

My question is this, at what point - typically - is correct spelling required? Haven, you allude to the fact that not teaching spelling and dictionary skills is in line with some whole language proponents. I'd be curious to know if there have been any studies done to see, at the end of the day (meaning graduation) if students taught by whole language precepts, are any more literate or better spellers than those taught in a more traditional manner. Hubs thinks probably not, but then he's not an elementary teacher...

 

[Haven]

ksinger--I'd be interested in reading such studies, as well. There is research to support both a whole language approach and a phonemic approach to literacy education, of course, and the current trends really do focus on merging the two approaches by using the so-called "best practices" of each.

As for spelling, it develops in stages so it's difficult to say when correct spelling is required. Most linguists identify five stages of spelling, and while different linguists and educators use different names for the stages, I'll choose use terms with which I'm most familiar here. You'll see that the stages overlap, and that is because individuals develop their literacy skills at different rates.

I apologize in advance if anything below doesn't make sense. I'm typing this out in rush so I can get dinner ready. I'm just too excited to talk about literacy to wait to post until later!

1: Prephonemic, ages 1 to 7. This stage is marked by the fact that children do not use the alphabetic principle in their writing. They may use a mixture of letters and numbers, or things that look like letters, but what they do use does not correlate with speech sounds.

2: Alphabetic, 4 to 9. This stage is marked by the fact that children use the alphabetic principle. At first, they may use one letter to represent an entire word, then they may use the first and last consonant sounds, and eventually they will begin to use vowels. The letters use will make some sort of logical sense to the child (e.g. "jr" as in "jriv" for "drive").

3: Word Pattern, 6 to 12. This stage is marked by the fact that children begin to incorporate spelling conventions into their writing. The conventions used are typically modeled from whatever they've been exposed to in their reading. They will also use visual features (in addition to the sound features they've been using) to spell words (e.g. the use of "rale" for "rail" will be based on their understanding final-e markers.) Children in this stage can spell most single-syllable words correctly.

4: Syllabic, 8 to 18. This stage is marked by the fact that children apply their knowledge to multisyllabic words. They can double the final consonant or drop a final e when using inflectional endings, and other such things.

5: Morphemic, 10 and up. This stage is marked by the fact that children can apply the principle of meaning to their spelling. They understand that words with similar meanings have similar spellings even though they may have different pronunciations.

ETA: GAH! Did you mean when is correct spelling required in school? Ha, I think so, and here I am typing out all of these nerdy details that don't really apply to the question.
My only answer to your real question is: I don't know. Different schools have different requirements, and they vary widely based on the school's approach to literacy education. I've worked with teachers of emergent writers who require correct spelling from the very start (a big no-no in my professional opinion) and jr. high teachers who don't require correct spelling at all.
Helpful, right?

 

[ksinger]

ksinger--I'd be interested in reading such studies, as well. There is research to support both a whole language approach and a phonemic approach to literacy education, of course, and the current trends really do focus on merging the two approaches by using the so-called "best practices" of each.

As for spelling, it develops in stages so it's difficult to say when correct spelling is required. Most linguists identify five stages of spelling, and while different linguists and educators use different names for the stages, I'll choose use terms with which I'm most familiar here. You'll see that the stages overlap, and that is because individuals develop their literacy skills at different rates.

I apologize in advance if anything below doesn't make sense. I'm typing this out in rush so I can get dinner ready. I'm just too excited to talk about literacy to wait to post until later!

1: Prephonemic, ages 1 to 7. This stage is marked by the fact that children do not use the alphabetic principle in their writing. They may use a mixture of letters and numbers, or things that look like letters, but what they do use does not correlate with speech sounds.

2: Alphabetic, 4 to 9. This stage is marked by the fact that children use the alphabetic principle. At first, they may use one letter to represent an entire word, then they may use the first and last consonant sounds, and eventually they will begin to use vowels. The letters use will make some sort of logical sense to the child (e.g. "jr" as in "jriv" for "drive").

3: Word Pattern, 6 to 12. This stage is marked by the fact that children begin to incorporate spelling conventions into their writing. The conventions used are typically modeled from whatever they've been exposed to in their reading. They will also use visual features (in addition to the sound features they've been using) to spell words (e.g. the use of "rale" for "rail" will be based on their understanding final-e markers.) Children in this stage can spell most single-syllable words correctly.

4: Syllabic, 8 to 18. This stage is marked by the fact that children apply their knowledge to multisyllabic words. They can double the final consonant or drop a final e when using inflectional endings, and other such things.

5: Morphemic, 10 and up. This stage is marked by the fact that children can apply the principle of meaning to their spelling. They understand that words with similar meanings have similar spellings even though they may have different pronunciations.

ETA: GAH! Did you mean when is correct spelling required in school? Ha, I think so, and here I am typing out all of these nerdy details that don't really apply to the question.
My only answer to your real question is: I don't know. Different schools have different requirements, and they vary widely based on the school's approach to literacy education. I've worked with teachers of emergent writers who require correct spelling from the very start (a big no-no in my professional opinion) and jr. high teachers who don't require correct spelling at all.
Helpful, right?

Haven, you should know by now that I am intensely interested in all things education. No problems. It's all pretty fascinating.

Interesting, that first stage, considering it from a personal perspective, because my mother made cards with sandpaper letters on them for me as a very young child, and would trace my finger over the letter while saying the sound. (Montessori approach as I recall). I was reading by age 3. A case of developmental readiness along with fortuitous exposure I suspect.

I guess I am just constantly appalled at how truly poor so many people's spelling/writing skills are. Of course hubs points out that for our district at least, we have SO many kids coming in who are illiterate to one degree or another: lots of hispanics, many of which are functionally illiterate in their native tongue, as well as English. Teaching reading to those kids is, let's just say....a challenge. I guess spelling is a low-priority when so many are lacking in just basic reading skills.

 

[ksinger]

Thanks Haven! I'm sure you are too and I wish we could get together and chat. I'm sure we'd have a lot to say!

One of my student's parents has asked me about spelling a few times this year. I don't think she's a fan of invented spelling. She expects everything to be spelled perfectly. I've tried over and over again to explain how it works but she's not happy. Oh well.

I agree on all fronts!

I'm sorry to hear about this parent. My friends who teach elementary school are truly the most passionate, wonderful, PATIENT people I know. They face so many challenges from parents, I'm continually in awe of their grace under fire.

And that parent needs to quit whining so much and step up and insist on it HERSELF. If spelling is that important to Mom, and she disagrees with you or feels the schools are not doing enough, the Mom should teach it AT HOME. I'm a big believer in parents not complaining all the time to the teachers, but in doing something on their own. And teaching spelling isn't rocket science after all. Surely Mom can drill her kid at home? When I started falling behind in grammar in the 4th grade, my mom didn't run to the school to bitch, SHE taught me grammar, and I was fine to go from there on out. If a parent can, they should. It's that attitude again, that only teachers are supposed to teach certain things to your kid. Weird, when you think about it.

 

[zoebartlett]

Ksinger -- From my experiences, once a teacher teaches specific sight words (often repeated throughout the grades, depending what the word is), those words should be spelled correctly in a child's daily writing. We focus heavily on spelling patterns, and we use a combination of our reading program (blah!) and a few other resources.

When I teach revising and editing, my kids don't get that a writer's work is never done. They think, "I'm done. I finished writing. I wrote a story with a beginning, a middle, and an end. I put my name and date on the paper. That's all." Not so! I have a writing conference with a child before he/she publishes a piece. During that time, I go over spelling more thoroughly, and I'll usually show that child the "book way" to spell hard words. I don't like calling it the "right way" because to that child, she DID write it the correct way (by writing the sounds she heard when she 'stretched' it out). By the way, I give out mini slinkys (slinkies?) to help them s-t-r-e-t-c-h out those words. Dorky, I know! It's a long process but it's great when a child publishes a story that she wrote and she feels proud of her efforts.

At my school, our kids use "Words I Use When I Write" dictionaries. They're just a list of commonly used words written in alphabetical order. As far as I know, there are two versions, one for lower elementary grades and one for upper grades. There are also many blank lines in these dictionaries, so that if a child asks how to spell a word, you can either write it on a blank line or you can encourage him/her to write the sounds they hear (I do both).

About the parent issue, I agree! I'm sure that's being done at home too.

 

[Haven]

Zoe--Is it bad that I have my college students create a "personal dictionary" that is really a mini, personal word wall filled with the words that they commonly misspell or misuse?

Sometimes I wish I could put up a word wall in my classrooms--it would really help!

I love your slinkies. Like I said, I bet you're an awesome teacher. I'm going to have to tell my grad students about the slinkies, they'll love it!

 

[Haven]

Haven, you should know by now that I am intensely interested in all things education. No problems. It's all pretty fascinating.

Interesting, that first stage, considering it from a personal perspective, because my mother made cards with sandpaper letters on them for me as a very young child, and would trace my finger over the letter while saying the sound. (Montessori approach as I recall). I was reading by age 3. A case of developmental readiness along with fortuitous exposure I suspect.

I guess I am just constantly appalled at how truly poor so many people's spelling/writing skills are. Of course hubs points out that for our district at least, we have SO many kids coming in who are illiterate to one degree or another: lots of hispanics, many of which are functionally illiterate in their native tongue, as well as English. Teaching reading to those kids is, let's just say....a challenge. I guess spelling is a low-priority when so many are lacking in just basic reading skills.

Your mother sounds like she was really committed to your literacy development--I wish more parents were like her!
You read at a very early age, that's impressive.

As a reading specialist, I teach reading to college kids, and I used to teach reading to high school kids. It can be a challenge, but for me, it is a JOY. I love teaching reading, and I consider it a privilege to do so. Reading specialists at the secondary and post-secondary level are growing in number, and for those of us who feel it is a calling to do what we do, it really is pure joy to teach young adults and adults how to read, and how to enjoy reading. I wouldn't switch my specialty for all the money in the world.

I keep a file filled with cards from former students, and so many of them tell me that after taking my class they now enjoy reading. Every time I hear a student say that, or read it in a note, it melts my heart. Mission: accomplished.

(We learn other things, too, but I firmly believe that instilling an appreciation for, and a love of reading is the best thing we can do for struggling readers. After all, it doesn't matter how many reading skills they develop--if they never put them to use, what's the point?)

I love teaching writing just as much. Writing this post is making me anxious for the spring semester to begin! I'm also going to be working with two elementary ed students who are taking my "Foundations of Reading Instruction" class as an independent study, and I'm so excited to teach *how* to teach reading to undergrads, as well. I get to teach reading instruction for graduate students, but haven't yet taught undergrads.

 

[ksinger]

Haven, you should know by now that I am intensely interested in all things education. No problems. It's all pretty fascinating.

Interesting, that first stage, considering it from a personal perspective, because my mother made cards with sandpaper letters on them for me as a very young child, and would trace my finger over the letter while saying the sound. (Montessori approach as I recall). I was reading by age 3. A case of developmental readiness along with fortuitous exposure I suspect.

I guess I am just constantly appalled at how truly poor so many people's spelling/writing skills are. Of course hubs points out that for our district at least, we have SO many kids coming in who are illiterate to one degree or another: lots of hispanics, many of which are functionally illiterate in their native tongue, as well as English. Teaching reading to those kids is, let's just say....a challenge. I guess spelling is a low-priority when so many are lacking in just basic reading skills.

Your mother sounds like she was really committed to your literacy development--I wish more parents were like her!
You read at a very early age, that's impressive.

As a reading specialist, I teach reading to college kids, and I used to teach reading to high school kids. It can be a challenge, but for me, it is a JOY. I love teaching reading, and I consider it a privilege to do so. Reading specialists at the secondary and post-secondary level are growing in number, and for those of us who feel it is a calling to do what we do, it really is pure joy to teach young adults and adults how to read, and how to enjoy reading. I wouldn't switch my specialty for all the money in the world.

I keep a file filled with cards from former students, and so many of them tell me that after taking my class they now enjoy reading. Every time I hear a student say that, or read it in a note, it melts my heart. Mission: accomplished.

(We learn other things, too, but I firmly believe that instilling an appreciation for, and a love of reading is the best thing we can do for struggling readers. After all, it doesn't matter how many reading skills they develop--if they never put them to use, what's the point?)

I love teaching writing just as much. Writing this post is making me anxious for the spring semester to begin! I'm also going to be working with two elementary ed students who are taking my "Foundations of Reading Instruction" class as an independent study, and I'm so excited to teach *how* to teach reading to undergrads, as well. I get to teach reading instruction for graduate students, but haven't yet taught undergrads.

Well, all I can say that is that if there is good teaching in Oklahoma (and there is), and real learning (which again, there is), it is "in spite of" rather than "because of". Google Josh Brecheen for the latest outrage to a decent education here in this state. (Yes, I'm embarrassed for our state yet again) It's a true testament to those good teachers and parents, that anyone at all in this state, learns anything at all.