do you think it''s too easy for people to file bankruptcy?...

[movie zombie]

Date: 8/13/2005 7:22:19 PM
Author: Dancing Fire

Date: 8/13/2005 5:01:42 PM
Author: movie zombie

additionally, credit card companies extend credit to high risk individuals, target young college kids without much experience, send out unsolicited approval notices for cards and/or credit increases, etc. in other words, credit card companies contribute to the problem.

that''s a lame excuse. if someone offers me drug,i''m still not going to use it.

drugs and shopping: good correlation, DF......much has been written about the ''shopoholic''.

we are constantly bombarded through unsolicited mailings, on tv, at the movies, in magazines, on the radio, etc. to buy buy buy buy and how easy it is with xxx card...in fact, using our card to make others happy is described as ''priceless''. some are more immune to these tactics than others. perhaps as with the legal drugs [cigarettes, cigars and alcohol] there should be disclaimers at the end of all credit card advertisements warning that using the product [the credit card] can be dangerous to one''s health [financial, that is!].

i respect your opinion that it is a lame excuse. however, i also respect the information i read and my own experience of constantly being bombarded with ways to part me from my $$$. whether or not it is a lame excuse, credit card companies do contribute to the problem. for me its a two way street: issue credit responsibily and responsibly use credit.

the original question was "do you think its too easy for people to file bankruptcy''. i stand by my original response: no. i do agree that there are credit card abusers out there, but i think it is overly simplistic to view them all as deadbeats. i do know people who abuse credit but i also know people who have filed for bankruptcy, learned their lesson, and gone on to be very very financially stable and responsible.

i do not believe that living beyond one''s means is right, but we are certainly encouraged to do so.

peace, movie zombie

 

[movie zombie]

F&I said: "Clearly - self respect and pride did not supercede spending beyond their means. Or, recognizing it as such. It''s just sooooooooooo foreign to me. Or maybe the outward things gave them the self respect and pride they so despretely needed. You, nor I, are never going to relate to that situation - but it does (spending to keep up with the jones''s) give some people respect and pride."

for many this is so very very true.....unfortunately. finances and self-worth issues can be a really really financial dangerous cocktail.

peace, movie zombie

 

[lmurden]

Date: 8/13/2005 5:01:42 PM
Author: movie zombie
''Personal bankruptcy filings are steadily rising. The total number of cases filed increases each year, and more telling, the percentage of working men and women who file, are both accelerating rapidly. Only Chapter 11 business filings have decreased in recent years. On average, American families carry more debt today than at any time in United States history. With good jobs in short supply, this unprecedented financial strain upon middle America is causing widespread concern among economists and creditors according to Alan Greenspan, Chairman of the Federal Reserve Board. The profile of the average debtor who files personal bankruptcy has changed. Wealthy individuals seldom file. The poorest segment of our population seldom files with the US Bankruptcy Courts. The typical debtor in personal bankruptcy is an average income earner who either: 1) lost employment, 2) recently contested divorce, or 3) suffered debilitating injuries or illnesses. Of all people filing personal bankruptcy, 80% fit into at least one of these categories.''

see: http://www.personal-bankruptcy-chapters-7-13-filing-laws.com/

yes, we can all telll a story of a credit abuser, but those that keep a tally of such things indicate such a credit abuser is in the minority.

additionally, credit card companies extend credit to high risk individuals, target young college kids without much experience, send out unsolicited approval notices for cards and/or credit increases, etc. in other words, credit card companies contribute to the problem.

i cannot recall ever having a class that taught living within one''s means, budgeting, etc. perhaps as a part of graduating from high school there should be a mandatory class regarding these types of things. if the goal of education is to prepare young people for the real world, then we are failing miserably in the area of financial responsibility.

peace, movie zombie

ps corporations use bankruptcy as a business strategy. i find this more appalling and immoral than an individual who files for bankruptcy. i also object that my tax dollars are then used to either prop the corporation up and/or to meet the corporations obligations regarding retirement, health benefits, etc.

Movie Zombie, thank you!
You hit the nail right on the head!

 

[lmurden]

Date: 8/13/2005 7:59:28 PM
Author: movie zombie
F&I said: ''Clearly - self respect and pride did not supercede spending beyond their means. Or, recognizing it as such. It''s just sooooooooooo foreign to me. Or maybe the outward things gave them the self respect and pride they so despretely needed. You, nor I, are never going to relate to that situation - but it does (spending to keep up with the jones''s) give some people respect and pride.''

for many this is so very very true.....unfortunately. finances and self-worth issues can be a really really financial dangerous cocktail.

peace, movie zombie

Once again, you got it!

 

[Momoftwo]

Someone earlier asked if they charged an engagement ring would it be taken back if the bill wasn't paid. The answer is no, if it's on a credit card, it's unsecured, not like a car loan or a mortgage where the loan is secured based on the value of the purchase. It's why you can't get a loan for more than the value of the car or house and why the bank or mortgage co name appears on the title, insurance paperwork, etc.

 

[icekid]

Date: 8/14/2005 1:06:36 AM
Author: lmurden

Date: 8/13/2005 7:59:28 PM
Author: movie zombie
F&I said: ''Clearly - self respect and pride did not supercede spending beyond their means. Or, recognizing it as such. It''s just sooooooooooo foreign to me. Or maybe the outward things gave them the self respect and pride they so despretely needed. You, nor I, are never going to relate to that situation - but it does (spending to keep up with the jones''s) give some people respect and pride.''

for many this is so very very true.....unfortunately. finances and self-worth issues can be a really really financial dangerous cocktail.

peace, movie zombie

Once again, you got it!

is it just me, or is this not a good reason to spend beyond your means? If you aren''t happy with yourself, no amount of spending is going to make you like yourself better. And I don''t think my tax money should subsidize it either.

and Matata you mentioned that the schools don''t teach about finance. I don''t know about that though. I took a finance class in high school. It was required; I believe it is required in NYS. And then I took a personal finance class in college too.

I think there should be personal hearings for each case when someone wants to file for bankruptcy. If you fall on hard times via illness, I have no problem forgiving those debts! But if you''re like one of my best friends, you should have to pay back your debts! One of my best friends from college, an absolutely brilliant person- has more cc debt than I would like to think about. And he CONSTANTLY buys things he does not NEED. He once told me that he pays his car loan every other month, because he could be a whole month late before they would try to repossess his car. Are you KIDDING?! And he plans to file for bankruptcy as soon as he pays off his car, so they cannot take it away. Absolutely ridiculous.

People just refuse to take responsibility for their actions.

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 8/14/2005 9:38:26 AM
Author: icekid

Date: 8/14/2005 1:06:36 AM
Author: lmurden

Date: 8/13/2005 7:59:28 PM
Author: movie zombie
F&I said: ''Clearly - self respect and pride did not supercede spending beyond their means. Or, recognizing it as such. It''s just sooooooooooo foreign to me. Or maybe the outward things gave them the self respect and pride they so despretely needed. You, nor I, are never going to relate to that situation - but it does (spending to keep up with the jones''s) give some people respect and pride.''

for many this is so very very true.....unfortunately. finances and self-worth issues can be a really really financial dangerous cocktail.

peace, movie zombie

Once again, you got it!

is it just me, or is this not a good reason to spend beyond your means? If you aren''t happy with yourself, no amount of spending is going to make you like yourself better. And I don''t think my tax money should subsidize it either.

and Matata you mentioned that the schools don''t teach about finance. I don''t know about that though. I took a finance class in high school. It was required; I believe it is required in NYS. And then I took a personal finance class in college too.

I think there should be personal hearings for each case when someone wants to file for bankruptcy. If you fall on hard times via illness, I have no problem forgiving those debts! But if you''re like one of my best friends, you should have to pay back your debts! One of my best friends from college, an absolutely brilliant person- has more cc debt than I would like to think about. And he CONSTANTLY buys things he does not NEED. He once told me that he pays his car loan every other month, because he could be a whole month late before they would try to repossess his car. Are you KIDDING?! And he plans to file for bankruptcy as soon as he pays off his car, so they cannot take it away. Absolutely ridiculous.

People just refuse to take responsibility for their actions.

Hey Kid - I can''t agree with you more!

Sure, we are bombarded with talk urging us to buy. It''s called advertising. It''s nothing new in society. What seems to be new is that instead of one excepting that one has PERSONAL RESPONISIBILITY - it''s everyone else''s fault. No one is forcing you to buy. You are not entitled to a yard man. You are not entitled to join a country club. Yet - that didn''t stop them.

I don''t know what impact the new "rules" will have. But currently, I do know that even for your SECOND bankrupcy filing all you need is about $500.00 for an attorney to draw up papers.

Momoftwo is correct. None of what you purchased that isn''t on secured line of credit is forfieted. I''ve got 50k in unsecured line of credit. I could take it all out, file & it''s mine. I can not figure out why someone wouldn''t think that is stealing.

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 8/14/2005 1:06:36 AM
Author: lmurden

Date: 8/13/2005 7:59:28 PM
Author: movie zombie
F&I said: ''Clearly - self respect and pride did not supercede spending beyond their means. Or, recognizing it as such. It''s just sooooooooooo foreign to me. Or maybe the outward things gave them the self respect and pride they so despretely needed. You, nor I, are never going to relate to that situation - but it does (spending to keep up with the jones''s) give some people respect and pride.''

for many this is so very very true.....unfortunately. finances and self-worth issues can be a really really financial dangerous cocktail.

peace, movie zombie

Once again, you got it!

I''m confused. The statement is correct - but WHY would this be a reason for someone to live beyond their means resulting in a bankrupcy? We aren''t forced to spend money.

 

[perry]

This is a touchy subject for me, and I have taken a day to think about it:

First my story:

I became unemployed in late 1990 a few months prior to a huge nationwide crash in my chosen profession. I was not worried because I had 30,000+ in savings and had letters from 4 companies promising to hire me (i.e. 4 job offers in hand). In the next 3 years over 50,000 permanent positions were eliminated from my industry nationwide and those letters were worthless.

However, I did not intially worry because I had 30,000+ in savings.

However, at the same time I developed some modest medical issues that restricted my abiltiy to perform at high level - and thus restricted the kinds of jobs I could actually do well.

So even when I understood that I had lost my chosen carrear I was not employable in a good job. Health insurance did not exist or was minimal for 10 years. Heck, I even worked one job that did not have any paid days off (sick time or vacation) for 4 years.

There were many periods of unemployment.

End result, by the time I figured out my medical issues (and I spent many thousands at several different aspects of the problem) I was about $45,000 down - all on unsecured credit (credit cards, & lines of credit).

Many people recommended that I declare bankruptcy, because towards the end there I could have lived a good life if I didn''t have to pay the debt.

However, I had a different view of it. My pattern statement is simple. I accumulated the debt and as long as I was able to work I felt that I should pay it off. If something happened and I suddenly became a paraplegic then I would reconsider.

To me it was a matter of personal responsibility.

Today, I have somwhere less than $15,000 to go in paying that original debt off. I have bought a house, spent $10,000 this year on a second vehicle (cash: needed for my side business), and $5000 having the house painted. Of course, I also own 2 matched diamonds that are intended to be the side diamonds for an engagement ring.

In another year or so I will have it paid off (i.e. managing debt while allowing some other things)

So what do I think about the subject:

Is it too easy to declare bankruptcy. Actually, I think not. I am OK with the ease of entering the process.

Are the consequences appropriate: Generally not.

I personnally believe that bankruptcy should relieve people of all their excess valued property.

Unless you are only doing a restructuring of payments - where the creditors will be paid off I belive that all of your property should go up for sale with the following exceptions: you have the right to a modest valued automobile (i.e average model several to 5 years old), and perhaps a modest house depending on the area (in my area you can rent appartments cheaper than make house payments - the house would go), basic household appliances and furnature, and you could tag personally earned/won or family heirloom items as property not subject to sale. Other than that everything else is sold up to the point that the creditors are paid off. All unpaid dept would then be forgiven and you would be allowed to start your life over.

While it is true that our system does not teach financial responsibility. Loosing most everything as part of a bankruptcy process would impart the necessary education to many.

I will note that should I have declared bankruptcy when I was advised to: There would have been very little to sell because I had already sold almost everything of value (my camio collection was one of the last thing to go). I was living in a 2 room appartment, with a 8 year old compact car, and either low hourly wages or unemployed.

In the end, we have to take responsibility in order to start over. In my case, I have worked my butt off and don''t have many things (including livingroom furnature) in order to pay down my debt. I have a hard time dealing with people who tell me that "I don''t understand - they have to have all of this stuff or do things." Fact is, it really does not take that much money to live. A couple good sets of clothing will do for a few years, etc.

Perry

 

[fire&ice]

Interesting Perry - and a reflection of character. Personal bankrupcy is for people in your situation. It''s ironic to me that it would have been such a difficult decision for you; yet, my relative laments/resents the fact that they had to let their country club membership lapse.

This is where I just roll my eyes at the abuse. It wasn''t an easy decision for you. It was an easy way out for my relative. They never made any attempt to pay off their debt. Clearly, bankrupcy did not have any impact on them - and proceeded to get in the same situation. They never wiped the slate clean. They just littered it back up again.

Oh, and *they* play the victim.

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 8/13/2005 11:17:45 AM
Author: Mara

it seems like the 7 years of bad reporting on the credit report seems like it would deter people, but maybe not if people ''plan'' to pay cash.. however, you have to wonder, well if you couldn''t pay cash for the 20k of purchased items you have on your cc''s then why would you be able to pay cash for everything for the next SEVEN YEARS to get around it?

You''d think this should be true......but it isn''t. Back in the day, no one would lend to anyone other than prime candidates.

Now, the sub-prime market is huge, and they actively COURT folks who''ve had bankruptcy discharges 2 or more years ago. Why? Because at that point, they are debt-free, and sub-primes are willing to take a chance lending to them at an astronomical rate.

Crazy, but true. I knew folks who had lost their home due to a shady mortgage company - tons of folks in this area lost their homes due to illegal balloon mortgages. 2 years after discharging bankruptcy, they were able to get another mortgage.

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 8/13/2005 7:22:19 PM
Author: Dancing Fire

Date: 8/13/2005 5:01:42 PM
Author: movie zombie

additionally, credit card companies extend credit to high risk individuals, target young college kids without much experience, send out unsolicited approval notices for cards and/or credit increases, etc. in other words, credit card companies contribute to the problem.

that''s a lame excuse. if someone offers me drug,i''m still not going to use it.

I don''t think that''s quite an on-point analogy, DF. People don''t NEED drugs to live.....but people do need a way to feed and clothe themselves.

I''m not saying c/c are the way to go, at all, but to be fair, credit cards market themselves by seducing young folks....college attendees or recent graduates who have to pay most of their new salaries toward exhorbitant student loans.....by saying "we are the solution to the problem". We can help you get on your feet.

To be fair on the other hand, those young folks don''t often make hard distinctions between what is REALLY a "need".....food, transportation, etc., and what is a WANT (TV, new CD, etc.)

As previously pointed out, if we don''t equip our young folks with a sense of financial responsibility through education, we are putting them in a position of being easy prey.

 

[lmurden]

Perry thank you for sharing.

 

[Gemklctr]

Date: 8/14/2005 8:16:59 AM
Author: Momoftwo
Someone earlier asked if they charged an engagement ring would it be taken back if the bill wasn't paid. The answer is no, if it's on a credit card, it's unsecured, not like a car loan or a mortgage where the loan is secured based on the value of the purchase. It's why you can't get a loan for more than the value of the car or house and why the bank or mortgage co name appears on the title, insurance paperwork, etc.

Just to clarify - DISCLAIMER (ANNOYING BUT NECESSARY): THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE. PLEASE CONTACT YOUR OWN ATTORNEY - while Mo2's answer is correct as far as it goes, if you file for bankruptcy, you will typically be required to surrender most of your assets for sale by the trustee to satisfy your debts. You only get to keep certain items, such as tools of your trade and a "homestead exemption," which vary from state to state. At least some states at least used to include an engagement ring in that exemption, but others may not have. Also, the whole area of exemptions has been changed by the new bankruptcy law to limit abuses like the building of a multi-million dollar home in Florida by a former Enron exec to take advantage of that state's prior exemption of the entire value of a personal residence. Now, if the girlfriend has already been given the ring before the boyfriend files, that would potentially present a different issue ...

Perry,

to you. I've seen too much of the other side. You are very admirable.

 

[MissAva]

Date: 8/14/2005 1:38:51 PM
Author: aljdewey

Date: 8/13/2005 7:22:19 PM
Author: Dancing Fire

Date: 8/13/2005 5:01:42 PM
Author: movie zombie

additionally, credit card companies extend credit to high risk individuals, target young college kids without much experience, send out unsolicited approval notices for cards and/or credit increases, etc. in other words, credit card companies contribute to the problem.

that''s a lame excuse. if someone offers me drug,i''m still not going to use it.

I don''t think that''s quite an on-point analogy, DF. People don''t NEED drugs to live.....but people do need a way to feed and clothe themselves.

I''m not saying c/c are the way to go, at all, but to be fair, credit cards market themselves by seducing young folks....college attendees or recent graduates who have to pay most of their new salaries toward exhorbitant student loans.....by saying ''we are the solution to the problem''. We can help you get on your feet.

To be fair on the other hand, those young folks don''t often make hard distinctions between what is REALLY a ''need''.....food, transportation, etc., and what is a WANT (TV, new CD, etc.)

As previously pointed out, if we don''t equip our young folks with a sense of financial responsibility through education, we are putting them in a position of being easy prey.

Personally I don’t think universities ought to allow credit card companies to attend the orientation sessions. Kids can apply for up to 20 CC in a single day without Mom and Dad knowing. Then they don’t have the money to pay the bills.
I have know debt because I am fearful of such things, but I know a lot of people who didn’t read the fine print from those little kiosks and were shocked to realize they would be paying 25% a month on what they owed.
I don’t believe that most college students would go out of their way to apply for credit cards but when there is a free t-shirt with your schools name on it (always vital to any incoming freshman) or a 20$ gift certificate to a local eatery or whatever kids apply and then a CC in the mail a week later, and some of them charge just for having the thing, some charge for not using often enough and so on.
My parents taught me a lot about finances and spending within your means, or better below them, and saving and researching before you sign your name to anything. But not everyone gets that at home and some walk into a room and assume that the university would not allows these people to be there if they didn’t have their best interests are heart.

 

[Mara]

I hugely agree that more education needs to be given to young kids today on how to responsibly use credit, this has been discussed previously on here as well. I always saw my mom shopping with credit cards, but I had no idea how to really use them. Hence me being the typical ignorant college student with no real cash and student loans and 2 jobs and the cards were just easy to use. And the banks throw them at college students.

I am a huge fan of a class in HS or similar where you have to learn to manage your finances including living within your means and the use of credit, if I had taken that instead of HISTORY...seriously it would have done me more of a world of useful good. Not all parents realize that this is something their kids need to be taught to use. If we have kids, you better believe we will teach it...but I think that an external source showing the importance as well would go a long way to reducing things like bankruptcies later when irresponsible teens don''t learn their lesson and take an easy way out.

I still had friends at age 25-28 whose parents would pay off their cc''s when it got to be too high and so they never really learned to be independent or the meaning of having the card. Having to pay off all my own debt due to my stupidity in college really taught me something for the future. Greg is a huge cash only or pay off card at end of the month type of person so thanks to being around him as well, it really has done wonders for assisting in changing that old mentality I had in college.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 8/14/2005 9:38:26 AM
Author: icekid

Date: 8/14/2005 1:06:36 AM
Author: lmurden

Date: 8/13/2005 7:59:28 PM
Author: movie zombie
F&I said: ''Clearly - self respect and pride did not supercede spending beyond their means. Or, recognizing it as such. It''s just sooooooooooo foreign to me. Or maybe the outward things gave them the self respect and pride they so despretely needed. You, nor I, are never going to relate to that situation - but it does (spending to keep up with the jones''s) give some people respect and pride.''

for many this is so very very true.....unfortunately. finances and self-worth issues can be a really really financial dangerous cocktail.

peace, movie zombie

Once again, you got it!

I think there should be personal hearings for each case when someone wants to file for bankruptcy. If you fall on hard times via illness, I have no problem forgiving those debts! But if you''re like one of my best friends, you should have to pay back your debts! One of my best friends from college, an absolutely brilliant person- has more cc debt than I would like to think about. And he CONSTANTLY buys things he does not NEED. He once told me that he pays his car loan every other month, because he could be a whole month late before they would try to repossess his car. Are you KIDDING?! And he plans to file for bankruptcy as soon as he pays off his car, so they cannot take it away. Absolutely ridiculous.

People just refuse to take responsibility for their actions.

yep....i agree 101%.too many are doing the samething.they plan on screwing the cerditors right from the start

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 8/14/2005 10:03:41 AM
Author: fire&ice

Hey Kid - I can''t agree with you more!

Sure, we are bombarded with talk urging us to buy. It''s called advertising. It''s nothing new in society. What seems to be new is that instead of one excepting that one has PERSONAL RESPONISIBILITY - it''s everyone else''s fault. No one is forcing you to buy. You are not entitled to a yard man. You are not entitled to join a country club. Yet - that didn''t stop them.

i agree with f&i.never understand those peoples.

Momoftwo is correct. None of what you purchased that isn''t on secured line of credit is forfieted. I''ve got 50k in unsecured line of credit. I could take it all out, file & it''s mine. I can not figure out why someone wouldn''t think that is stealing.

of course it''s stealing.just like robbing the bank but,don''t need a gun.

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 8/15/2005 12:00:38 PM
Author: GemKlctr

Date: 8/14/2005 8:16:59 AM
Author: Momoftwo
Someone earlier asked if they charged an engagement ring would it be taken back if the bill wasn''t paid. The answer is no, if it''s on a credit card, it''s unsecured, not like a car loan or a mortgage where the loan is secured based on the value of the purchase. It''s why you can''t get a loan for more than the value of the car or house and why the bank or mortgage co name appears on the title, insurance paperwork, etc.

Just to clarify - DISCLAIMER (ANNOYING BUT NECESSARY): THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE. PLEASE CONTACT YOUR OWN ATTORNEY - while Mo2''s answer is correct as far as it goes, if you file for bankruptcy, you will typically be required to surrender most of your assets for sale by the trustee to satisfy your debts. You only get to keep certain items, such as tools of your trade and a ''homestead exemption,'' which vary from state to state. At least some states at least used to include an engagement ring in that exemption, but others may not have. Also, the whole area of exemptions has been changed by the new bankruptcy law to limit abuses like the building of a multi-million dollar home in Florida by a former Enron exec to take advantage of that state''s prior exemption of the entire value of a personal residence. Now, if the girlfriend has already been given the ring before the boyfriend files, that would potentially present a different issue ...

Perry,

to you. I''ve seen too much of the other side. You are very admirable.

Again, not legal advice - but I''ve not seen this. Maybe in complicated bankrupcies involving business''s, etc. The relative did not have to surrender any cars, jewelry or anything that wasn''t used as collateral. But, perhaps if we were talking big money owed, it would be worth it to pursue.

Regarding financial education in school, we all took a "family life" class. We were paired up, given salaries & life situations (present situation, children?, etc). I remember it being enlightening as we had to prepare a budget. The class discussed what was a need & a desire. We had to separate those & buget for both. It opened my eyes as to what was "take home" pay. It also opened my eyes that debt came with INTEREST (never dawned on me). Have the schools eliminated those classes too? Don''t get me started on eliminating all those electives deemed unimportant (Art, Gym, Shop, etc).

 

[MissAva]

Those classes are still offered as electives. I choose not to take it but I know some who did. We did have to do a budget once where we had 40$ a week to live on. It was four weeks. I was sooo proud of myself because I came in 60$ under budget at the end of the month, my teacher kept looking over my receipts. I just walked everywhere and used cupons...which appreantly is a forgien idea to some. I have never been embarressed to use cupons or to wait to shop on the day where they are doubled. For some reason though many people my age (22) seem to find this embarressing or soccially awkward. I dont know why.

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 8/15/2005 4:55:24 PM
Author: Matatora
Those classes are still offered as electives. I choose not to take it but I know some who did. We did have to do a budget once where we had 40$ a week to live on. It was four weeks. I was sooo proud of myself because I came in 60$ under budget at the end of the month, my teacher kept looking over my receipts. I just walked everywhere and used cupons...which appreantly is a forgien idea to some. I have never been embarressed to use cupons or to wait to shop on the day where they are doubled. For some reason though many people my age (22) seem to find this embarressing or soccially awkward. I dont know why.

Hey, coupon queen here! Never been embarassed - thought of it as a game.

That said, currently, I do only use the coupons on the brands that I buy - a luxury of age.

 

[Dancing Fire]

perry

good for you.your my hero.

 

[Mara]

Those classes weren''t an option in my school nor in college etc. Personally I think if it''s not in HS then it should be required for freshman, like at least a weekend course or something. Esp since at college is where they camp out at the bookstore or similar and sign you up on the spot!