does color affect fire

[oldmancoyote]

To the risk (certainty?) of continuing the threadjacking, and with apologies to Holly - this goes to the heart of why people buy and value jewellery. If ultimately or predominantly they buy and value it because it''s beautiful, the "technical perfection" argument is pointless if the perfection cannot be seen. If they buy and value it because it''s rare, then the "technical perfection" argument holds regardless of whether the beholder''s eye can appreciate the difference. Same applies to natural vs. synthetic and unenhanced vs. enhanced (at least where the enhancement is permanent and causes no detriment to the other properties)

I think there is a mix of both reasons in most jewellery purchases - but some people favour the "beauty" argument, others the "rarity"; certainly the way the grading and pricing system for diamonds and other gemstones is set up seems to favour the rarity against the beauty.

 

[pyramid]

Maybe I have been wrong and it is a cut issue or something, but in the small diamonds I own, I notice the colour of the fire in the D-G shades seems to look lighter than in say a m or n shade diamond. I mean the red looks light red/pink but dark red in the lower colour diamond and the same with the blue being sky blue instead of a teale blue colour.

 

[GossamerAngel]

fire and scintillation is a factor of cut, not color. The hues and tones of that fire and those flashes of light, well those would be impacted by the body color of the stone. So you take two diamonds that are cut and polished identically, down to the last crown angle, if one is a D and another is a J, the dispersion of light would be the same, but how that dispersion of light would appear would not be identical.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 1/9/2009 8:26:08 PM
Author: GossamerAngel
fire and scintillation is a factor of cut, not color. The hues and tones of that fire and those flashes of light, well those would be impacted by the body color of the stone. So you take two diamonds that are cut and polished identically, down to the last crown angle, if one is a D and another is a J, the dispersion of light would be the same, but how that dispersion of light would appear would not be identical.

Correct GA. The fire is something emerging from the outside interface of the stone, and to the best of my knowledge the spectrum of each flash is neither added to nor subtracted from the body colour of the diamond material.

Sergey could correct me if this is wrong?

Antoher issue - one that has caused contention in the past
"Brilliance is the enemy of fire"
A less bright diamond shows more fire than one with lots of strong bright sparkles.

If you are still here holly tommalle then this might be the solution to your original question?

Does the color grade of a diamond affect the amount of fire a diamond has? From what I have been reading cut has a lot to do with fire but does a D colored diamond have less fire than a H colored diamond because the diamond itself is whiter? I have a D colored diamond. It throws around lots of white light and not so much colored light. I don''t mind it that way at all but I was just wondering why. My old diamond was a G and it did have a little bit more fire.

Holly

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 1/9/2009 9:15:34 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 1/9/2009 8:26:08 PM

<
Antoher issue - one that has caused contention in the past

''Brilliance is the enemy of fire''

A less bright diamond shows more fire than one with lots of strong bright sparkles.

Sigh! Garry, I know it is slow going down under, but do you not listen to Peter when you come to Vegas?

Unless I am mistaken, which is always possible, I believe that the enclosed fire metric chart disproves that old saw.

As you can see the more bright the yellow, the longer the flashes of dispersion and when the flash of dispersion is wider at the pupil of the eye than the pupil of the eye, then the eye will discern the dispersive colors. When the flash of dispersion is narrower at the pupil of the eye than the pupil of the eye, then the entire flash will enter the pupil and be seen as white light.

The tolkowsky cut diamond on the left has significantly more dispersion coming from it than the less brilliant cut diamond on the right. Thus it can be seen that brilliance is NOT the enemy of dispersion, as looking at an AGS 0 (Ideal) cut grade diamond will clearly show in real life.

Having loved the Old European cut diamonds for many years, I certainly admit that a diamond can be cut for dispersion while not being super brilliant, but I believe that the enclosed metric shows that cutting for brilliance does not automatically lessen dispersion.

Thoughts?

Wink

 

[WinkHPD]

P.S. This also explains why we see more dispersion in daylight than in moonlight or in a darkened room with many small lights, which sparkles like crazy but with little apparent dispersion. Our pupils greatly expand in dim light situations, thus much more of the dispersion is perceived as brilliance or sparkle, (white light) rather than dispersion.

Wink

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 1/9/2009 9:51:01 PM
Author: Wink

Date: 1/9/2009 9:15:34 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 1/9/2009 8:26:08 PM

<
Antoher issue - one that has caused contention in the past

''Brilliance is the enemy of fire''

A less bright diamond shows more fire than one with lots of strong bright sparkles.

Sigh! Garry, I know it is slow going down under, but do you not listen to Peter when you come to Vegas?

Unless I am mistaken, which is always possible, I believe that the enclosed fire metric chart disproves that old saw.

As you can see the more bright the yellow, the longer the flashes of dispersion and when the flash of dispersion is wider at the pupil of the eye than the pupil of the eye, then the eye will discern the dispersive colors. When the flash of dispersion is narrower at the pupil of the eye than the pupil of the eye, then the entire flash will enter the pupil and be seen as white light.

The tolkowsky cut diamond on the left has significantly more dispersion coming from it than the less brilliant cut diamond on the right. Thus it can be seen that brilliance is NOT the enemy of dispersion, as looking at an AGS 0 (Ideal) cut grade diamond will clearly show in real life.

Having loved the Old European cut diamonds for many years, I certainly admit that a diamond can be cut for dispersion while not being super brilliant, but I believe that the enclosed metric shows that cutting for brilliance does not automatically lessen dispersion.

Thoughts?

Wink

I am afraid it is not that simple Wink.
AGS have a metric for ''potential'' for dispersion.

They do not have a measure for ''Intensity'' of dispersion.

The later is more relevant to Brightness being the enemy of Fire.

Also it is much easier to see fire on a dark duller background of a less brilliant diamond - or a diamond with smaller point lights (in say a darkened room) or a room with a black ceiling which totally kills the brigntess of the stone.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 1/9/2009 9:53:53 PM
Author: Wink
P.S. This also explains why we see more dispersion in daylight than in moonlight or in a darkened room with many small lights, which sparkles like crazy but with little apparent dispersion. Our pupils greatly expand in dim light situations, thus much more of the dispersion is perceived as brilliance or sparkle, (white light) rather than dispersion.

Wink

Sorry Wink, I am being objectionable today.
As part of a lighting study we are doing I have a dark room upstairs and just tested your theory with the box of small s/c and full cuts you saw at Vegas, and a variety of diamonds and CZ''s with about 15 LED''s 50cm away and me 40cm away.
The fire got better and better as my eyes became acustomed to the dim light.
When I turned the lights backk on and opened the daylight window, the brighter stones lost all or most of their fire, and the not so bright lost most of their fire.

I think if you check with Peter that he knows the intensity issue is very important.

 

[T L]

Date: 1/8/2009 5:01:55 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
D should have more fire than a low colour like M because the body colour of the M can reduce the range of dispersion in the visible light range.

Between H and D no human could see a difference

Why, are there other species that can? Just kidding!

What about a badly cut D vs an ideal cut M?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 1/9/2009 10:46:08 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover

Date: 1/8/2009 5:01:55 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
D should have more fire than a low colour like M because the body colour of the M can reduce the range of dispersion in the visible light range.

Between H and D no human could see a difference

Why, are there other species that can? Just kidding!

What about a badly cut D vs an ideal cut M?

I would expect the worst cut to show more dispersion TL

this photo shows various CZ''s on the top row and 3/4ct diamonds from the MSS project mounted on the strip.
The top light is best for fire and the bottom best for brightness.

TL note the 3 round CZ''s - the left side is my ''good'' stone, the center rd is a so so stone and the right side is a my ''bad'' stone (I carry ''these'' in my pocket as many of you know).
What I want you to see is the top right round - note that it is facing right at the camera and shows a black center called a nail head. This portion of the stone face up will show virtually no fire in most cases -even as the stone is rocked about - most of its fire will come from the crown facets. This stone will only begin to show fire from its table once it is tilted far away from you.

 

[strmrdr]

My 2c
There are 3 components of fire:
intensity
size
separation

A stone with less intense fire, with larger size flashes with more separation can appear to have more fire than a diamond with more intensity, smaller sizes and less separation.

I do not believe that AGS has the entire story in their fire metric.
Separation may be the most important one when combined with motion as it produces scintillation.

 

[tommalle]

Yes, I am still here. I am enjoying reading all of the posts. I like what Gossamer Angel had to say about the dispersion of light being the same between 2 identical diamonds but how it would appear would be different. Does most everyone agree?

 

[tommalle]

Since I have all of the experts here, would anyone mind answering a few more questions? Am I correct in saying that brilliance is white light, fire is colored light, and scintillation is the sparkle? Is sparkle the movement of the light reflected in a diamond when it moves? If so, can sparkle be any color? In the best cut diamond are these three things equal? In other diamond cuts, from the very poor up to the very best are brilliance, fire, and sparkle, present in varying degrees? Can a diamond have lots of scintillation and little brilliance and fire? If my definitions are correct, it wouldn''t be possible.

I guess I should have opened with "Does anyone mind answering a dozen or so questions."

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 1/10/2009 2:16:27 AM
Author: tommalle
Since I have all of the experts here, would anyone mind answering a few more questions? Am I correct in saying that brilliance is white light, fire is colored light, and scintillation is the sparkle? Is sparkle the movement of the light reflected in a diamond when it moves? If so, can sparkle be any color? In the best cut diamond are these three things equal? In other diamond cuts, from the very poor up to the very best are brilliance, fire, and sparkle, present in varying degrees? Can a diamond have lots of scintillation and little brilliance and fire? If my definitions are correct, it wouldn''t be possible.


I guess I should have opened with ''Does anyone mind answering a dozen or so questions.''

This will help on the definitions.
http://diamonds.pricescope.com/brill.asp

A diamond can have so-so face up brightness yet have good scintillation.

The best cut diamonds have varying personalities which is a balance of fire and white light return and more so how each is returned.
2 well cut diamonds could look nothing like each other in most lighting and both be top cuts.

Keep in mind the top 5 most important things for diamond performance are...
1: lighting
2: lighting
3: lighting
4: lighting
5: lighting