Does origin matter?

[lavatea]

Just curious if any of you care about origin of a gemstone for origin's sake or just because of the color that usually comes out of that region?

For example, I want a Four Peaks amethyst. But I don't really care that it comes from AZ - I want the look of a Four Peaks amethyst.

Your thoughts?

 

[T L]

Just curious if any of you care about origin of a gemstone for origin's sake or just because of the color that usually comes out of that region?

For example, I want a Four Peaks amethyst. But I don't really care that it comes from AZ - I want the look of a Four Peaks amethyst.

Your thoughts?

It depends. Some stones have a premium on them based on the fact they come from a certain location. In the case of amethyst, for me personally, I don't care about origin except for the one origin I avoid!! I avoid Brazilian amethyst like the plague, and I personally have never seen any that has the saturation I like. However, there is some beautiful Amethyst from various African countries, Uruguay and the United States (Georgia and Arizona). The African material tends to be bluer, and the 4 peaks material tends to be redder, but you can find beautiful color in both locations. I particularly like Zambian material. Unfortunately, most deep dark saturated amethyst is synthetic, and I do believe they're not mining the high quality in large sizes like they used to.

 

[movie zombie]

some are purists and want what comes from a specific location...others use a regional area to describe a color and/or inflate the price of a stone. its really up to you. if you want the look of the 4 Peaks and don't care about origen, then shop til you drop to find that color...or just pay for the 4 Peaks and be done with it. the georgia amythest is more blue. long ago there was "siberian" that had both blue and red but that has played out. still kicking myself over a lost opportunity for one of those. sigh.

MoZo

 

[Lady_Disdain]

For me, looks is most important. If a stone is ugly, then it is ugly no matter where it came from.

However, I do have a fondness for some historically important locations and I would like a nice looking stone from them. I am not sure, though, how much of a premium I would be willing to pay.

 

[jleb]

Provenance is just a way for dealers to make more money. Take the Australian sapphires. How many of those do you hear about? Yet the Thais re-market them as Ceylon, Thai etc.

I think the only time it matters is if a stone is from a certain area and those stones have particular characteristics. Zambian emeralds for example will have more blue in the green than a Columbian, while Brazilian emeralds will have a bit more yellow. Pads from Montana are the equal of any of the ones from the far east if they are of decent quality and size. I think it's more a question of how it looks than where it's from, origin will give you indications, but the real test is on the hand.

 

[T L]

some are purists and want what comes from a specific location...others use a regional area to describe a color and/or inflate the price of a stone. its really up to you. if you want the look of the 4 Peaks and don't care about origen, then shop til you drop to find that color...or just pay for the 4 Peaks and be done with it. the georgia amythest is more blue. long ago there was "siberian" that had both blue and red but that has played out. still kicking myself over a lost opportunity for one of those. sigh.

MoZo

The true Siberian material did play out a long time ago, but "Siberian" is also a term used to describe a very deeply saturated amethyst color, or to some in the trade, the top grade of amethyst color. It's no longer really used as an origin name regarding amethyst.

MZ, you can still find very fine amethyst color. I have heard that some of the top quality Four Peaks material rivals the original Russian deposits. Amethyst used to be very valuable a long time ago, but since it was discovered in so many locations in abundance, the price plummeted. That's why there are so many old royal pieces with amethyst, but you see practically no new royal pieces with amethyst made today. I find that good quality amethyst is still a great bargain in the gem world, and is very underrated.

 

[Brown.Eyed.Girl]

Totally don't care. If I like the color and cut, it can come from Venus for all I care

 

[T L]

Totally don't care. If I like the color and cut, it can come from Venus for all I care

I think a rock from Venus would be pretty valuable!! Sorry, I'm an astronomy nut, couldn't resist.

 

[Brown.Eyed.Girl]

Totally don't care. If I like the color and cut, it can come from Venus for all I care

I think a rock from Venus would be pretty valuable!! Sorry, I'm an astronomy nut, couldn't resist.

Haha TL, I actually thought about that (that it would be pretty cool to have a rock from another planet )

Ok, it can come from ... um ... Madagascar for all I care

 

[T L]

Totally don't care. If I like the color and cut, it can come from Venus for all I care

I think a rock from Venus would be pretty valuable!! Sorry, I'm an astronomy nut, couldn't resist.

Haha TL, I actually thought about that (that it would be pretty cool to have a rock from another planet )

Ok, it can come from ... um ... Madagascar for all I care

Hopefully it's an asteroid piece from another planet!! We actually have confirmed rocks from Mars that came to Earth when pieces of Mars were broken off by asteroids millions of years ago.

Yeah, origin would matter to me if it was from another planet. That would so coooool!!

Okay back on topic. . . assuming we only care about Earth rocks. LOL!

 

[Brown.Eyed.Girl]

Totally don't care. If I like the color and cut, it can come from Venus for all I care

I think a rock from Venus would be pretty valuable!! Sorry, I'm an astronomy nut, couldn't resist.

Haha TL, I actually thought about that (that it would be pretty cool to have a rock from another planet )

Ok, it can come from ... um ... Madagascar for all I care

Hopefully it's an asteroid piece from another planet!! We actually have confirmed rocks from Mars that came to earth when pieces of Mars were broken off by asteroids millions of years ago.

Yeah, origin would matter to me if it was from another planet. That would so coooool!!

Okay back on topic. . . assuming we only care about Earth rocks. LOL!

Ha! For Earth rocks, I guess if I had the financial means and the discernment and was willing to plunk down a substantial amount of money on, say, a sapphire, origin could matter quite a bit. So I can definitely see it happening. But for now, and for my run-of-the-mill stones, color and cut trump origin for sure.

And back to the astronomy really quick - if I could be reborn as a smarter me (especially in quantitative subjects) my dream would be to become an astrophysicist.

 

[T L]

Ha! For Earth rocks, I guess if I had the financial means and the discernment and was willing to plunk down a substantial amount of money on, say, a sapphire, origin could matter quite a bit. So I can definitely see it happening. But for now, and for my run-of-the-mill stones, color and cut trump origin for sure.

And back to the astronomy really quick - if I could be reborn as a smarter me (especially in quantitative subjects) my dream would be to become an astrophysicist.

I would love to be an astrophysicist.

Here's a tidbit on Mars rocks just in case people think I'm totally making this up. I'm not. This article talks about possible Venusian rocks as well!
http://geology.about.com/od/meteorites/a/marsmeteorite.htm

Back to Earth origin, something to note, although some origins have produced the finest examples of a particular gem species (ie Kashmir sapphires, Burmese rubies), do not pay a premium on an average color just because it comes from a prime locale. Burma and Kashmir have produced meh looking rubies and sapphires as well. Just wanted to point that out.

 

[movie zombie]

yes, i realize that the term siberian now refers to a color rather origen: however, it is a piece of the "origen" that i'm still sighing over. and the reason i am drawn to 4 Peaks is that it does have the red. i've actually done my homework on this one and still wish i had acted quicker and called he who will not be named as it seems to rile many as it did sit at his website for a very very long time. i did understand though when i did finally call that another pricescoper got it......but i don't know who.

yes, it is under rated and under valued...for now. even the very finest stones are a bargain when compared to the finest sapphire, garnet, etc.

MoZo

ps personally, i'd still rather have a piece of origen siberian. it has more scintillation to my eye. but perhaps that was because it was particularly fine cut gem.

 

[T L]

MZ,
I'm not sure if origin of the true Siberian material can be determined microscopically, so you probably either need to buy a very old piece that is confirmed Siberian through documentation (like an old Fabrege piece from Russia with documentation that the stone has never been replaced - good luck on that!!), or have a lab look at it if origin is able to be determined. I was once watching Antiques Roadshow, and the jewelry appraiser saw an antique amethyst bracelet, and just by visually looking at it without any equipment, not even a loupe, was able to tell it was authentic Siberian material. Maybe the color is that distinct. However, I'm skeptical. So many dealers, and I'm not talking about any specific vendor, will sell Siberian origin without proof of origin. I still think you should look at Four Peaks if you really want one because who knows how long the fine material will last. They do suffer from zoning though and the most expensive pieces have fine color and the least amount of zoning.

Here's a thread showing how red the Four Peaks material looks next to amethyst from other locations.
https://www.pricescope.com/communit...rrived-today-10-38-ct.81921/?hilit=Four peaks

Here's the Four Peaks amethyst in a Leon, but only one picture
https://www.pricescope.com/communit...methyst-ring-by-leon.140963/?hilit=Four peaks

I have an Afghani amethyst that is very red as well. I was told it was Afghani when I bought it. I have no confirmation.

Do not discount Zambian and Uruguayan material either. Some of the top material is extremely fine. I've seen it, it's incredible. I hope there's still some coming out of the ground like that.

Here's a Modern Jeweler article about African amethyst. The stone in the article was cut by John Dyer.
http://www.modernjeweler.com/web/online/Colored-Gemstone-Gem-Profiles/African-Amethyst/1$291

 

[chrono]

Sometimes it does; sometimes gemstones from a particular locale have a very specific appearance that cannot be duplicated from gemstones from other locations. As of this point, I don’t think the 4 Peaks-like material can be found anywhere else. I agree with the other posters that sometimes an origin is used for many reasons:
1. An excuse to attach a premium to the price for lower quality material (origin doesn’t guarantee fine quality)
2. Used as a descriptor to evoke similar colour from a specific locale

I have seen very fine Uruguay amethyst that look reminiscent of the old Siberian material so they are still out there and to me, very well priced at the moment.

 

[soberguy]

I think it can matter in some cases. Turqoise is another origin mattering stone lol!

 

[movie zombie]

yes, the really fine amethyst from uruguay has more of the old fine siberian properties.....and is thus far affordable. that will change shortly, i'm afraid.

despite the inexpensive nature of fine amethyst [compared to other fine stones], there is also a problem with synthetic in the market. as always, let the buyer beware.

MoZo

 

[mastercutgems]

I have always thought the Siberian color amethyst from Zambia was the closest to the Russian Ural mountain material as it had both the red and blue flash to it. It is a fine line to get a gem that does not go too dark in that material and still has the flash of red and blue that is sought after as it is a rather saturated body color.
It is still around but not like it used to be. I know the last gem show I went to had a pile of rough that was called Siberian; but I could never get the dealer to say it was untreated. It was amazing how well it was cobbed and all in the about the same size pieces???
Is nothing sacred where colored gem minerals are concerned

I know as far as being a collector; location can mean everything. As some locations are so rare to have found that particular mineral. I know true Hiddenite location is about everything as many call green spodumene Hiddenite but it is not colored by Chromium and it has to be colored by Chromium to be considered true hiddenite. Plus Yogo sapphires, Franklin NC ruby that will rival the Burma material; etc. so yes I would have to say location does play a large role IF you are a collector. If you are just wearing it as a piece of jewelry then location will not play as big a role as color, clarity, and cut...

Most respectfully;

 

[Arkteia]

Totally don't care. If I like the color and cut, it can come from Venus for all I care

I think a rock from Venus would be pretty valuable!! Sorry, I'm an astronomy nut, couldn't resist.

Remember, it may be coming from Venus's girdle!
(For those who do not know: Venus (Aphrodyte) was wearing a girdle who'd turn any woman into a beauty and inspire incredible desire in a man's heart. Hera (Juno) borrowed it from Aprodite (Venus) when she needed to seduce Zeus for her needs).

 

[ValentinesJewelryDesign]

Four peaks Amethyst tends to be a dark saturated Amethyst. You can get that look from Brazilian origin. The origin only matters if you want a piece that originated from AZ. The same holds true with Montana Sapphire......the same look is available from other sources.....but then it wouldn't be "Montana". Now, origin does matter when a certain stone can only be found in that particular region such as Tanzanite, Tsavorite Garnet, and the hotly contested Paraiba Tourmaline.

 

[Largosmom]

In the back of my mind, I'm considering trying to collect a gemstone from each of the US states...so yes, in this case origins matter.

Laura

 

[movie zombie]

In the back of my mind, I'm considering trying to collect a gemstone from each of the US states...so yes, in this case origins matter.

Laura

its in the back of mind, also. i have some georgia ruby; from california tourmaline, spessartite, and aquamarine. some are gem cut but some are specimens.

 

[Largosmom]

I had not considered specimens...perhaps I could get good quality rough if I see it and consider cutting at a future date. If there is one thing I have learned this week is that if I can afford it I should buy when I see something.

So far, I have montana sapphire...oh, and some chips of Opal from Nevada and I'll have to think about it, but may have some stones from my dad that were found in the desert southwest.

Laura

 

[movie zombie]

specimen does not always equal rough suitable for cutting but is often merely a really good representative crystal. the aqua i have is the latter.

MoZo

 

[RockHugger]

It matters on some stones IMO. Burma rubies, parabia brazil tourmalines, Russian demantoids. Some locations produce the cream of the crop stones, and if you are paying a premium for the stone, might as well get it from the premium location.

 

[Largosmom]

MoZo, I did realize that specimen did not equal rough...but that is where my mind went immediately, lol! If only I had a clue how to pick good rough, huh?

Interesting thread.

 

[T L]

Well, in this case it sure does. Went to the museum today and got a neat photo of a real moon rock brought back by the Apollo Astronauts.

It's about five inches tall, and looks like something you'd find in a gravel pile, but it's valuable, VERY valuable, because it comes from the moon. LOL!!

 

[Largosmom]

Now that is an origin...I've seen a few moon rocks...would love to have one someday. I can just see our astronauts/"rockhounds" bounding around from the old TV when I was a kid.

Laura

 

[lavatea]

In the back of my mind, I'm considering trying to collect a gemstone from each of the US states...so yes, in this case origins matter.

Laura

I love this idea! I will confess that I am drawn to Oregon Sunstone, Montana Sapphires, Four Peak Amethyst, etc, partly because they are from the US. I also like the idea of using Etsy sellers here in the US for settings. Nothing like spending money at home.

 

[Largosmom]

I just realized that my new sunstone is another state, thanks! I haven't taken photos of it yet, will post it when I do.

I also would love to have some US amethyst. Perhaps I do already as I have several amethysts...just could not say what the origins are.

laura