Does this mean I''m a bottom-feeder?

[TKC]

Hi Richard, what is the actual color of your spinel? It looks orange on my screen. When you say a spinel can be called ruby like, does it need to eliminate orange hue completely?

By the way, any of you knows which one is more recognizable lab. AGTA or AGL? How important is color scan (the percentage) by AGL and how accurate? Isn''t it color in the eye of the beholder?

 

[TKC]

By the way, any of you knows how rare is the 70% color scan by the AGL lab. on rubies? When the AGL''s report says "Classic Burma" on the grading report of a ruby, does it also mean that the ruby possesses a "Pigeon Blood" color?

 

[raddygast]

That''s what I was going to ask Richard. Frankly, I don''t quite understand the AGL color grading system or the science behind it. First of all, they have percentages for "pink" which from what I understand of color theory is not a hue at all but a saturation range for red.

From the AGL reports I see posted on that site, I have not yet seen anything to be 95% red/orange except that stone. To be more clear, I think some stones may have more than 70% red, but usually they also have some pink/purple secondary as well as orange, and/or brown.

Are you saying that for a spinel to be ruby-like, it needs to be less than 10% orange and consequently 90% red? Or just that having some pink/purple is better tolerated than orange? For my own tastes, I think I quite prefer orange secondaries, because I don''t psychologically perceive them as orange until they cross a certain threshold -- in fact, for me, they enhance red (which is what they do in many car paint schemes around the world) in a subconscious way, making less saturated red seem less pink. In fact, my spinel, which doesn''t have an AGL color grade (way too expensive for a bottom-feeder!) is a GIA oR 5.5/5 (somewhere between a 5 and a 6 on tone). Personally, I don''t see any orange at all in it except under fluorescents -- in harsh sunlight it can be a bit pinkish. I think that without the orange component, it would look even more pink to me. I think an R 5/6 is the only thing that would look truly red to my eye without some orange enhancement.

Could you elaborate on the AGL color system? I don''t even know how they measure it. And here''s a technical question for you. I''ve NEVER seen an AGL report or even any stone without a report that claims to be AGL-identified as a 100% pure hue. On the other hand, I have seen PLENTY of GIA system nomenclature stating stones to be R 6/5, or B 6/6, or whatever.

Is it just that the GIA system is much less accurate (since it is based on color paddle comparison) and fine-grained? Or is it because the AGL system somehow incorporates saturation information into the color (which would explain why they give percentages to things like pink, grey, and brown)?

Anyway, another question about the spinel you posted. If I may ask (and probably I may not) what would a stone like that go for? We don''t know anything about its clarity or its size -- cut looks fairly standard, oval mixed cut, probably decent proportions. But I really don''t know what to guess without the size info.

In the next 5 years or so I hope to own one or two more spinels of collector-quality. These things don''t look to be getting any more abundant (the Burmese ones at least) and unless people discover a new cache of stunning untreated Burmese corundum rough, I''m guessing spinel might become "the new ruby."

velouria: Well, my girlfriend is certainly into the idea of non-traditional things, and red was definitely her preference, but she''s just not obsessive enough to be really really into it. Then again I''ve kept her out of it as much as I can to preserve some semblance of surprise.

I really blame the whole thing on the Wizard of Oz. It was those damn ruby red slippers that did it to me. I don''t think I''ve ever been able to get out of my head that red gems are absolutely the ultimate gem of all time. And, I hope to buy some spinels for earrings. But the things are so damned hard to find in the ultimate quality, that finding a reasonably matched pair for earrings seems almost impossible. Where did that pair-pic you posted come from?

 

[Kismet]

Date: 6/29/2005 12:44:49 AM
Author: raddygast
Where did that pair-pic you posted come from?

I''m not velouriaL but those stones came from ACStones. I''ve had my little nose pressed against their window for a while now; not checking out those stones, but just looking in general.

 

[diamondlil]

Just and update: I pulled the trigger and ordered my red spinel. I decided on the oval pictured at the top of this thread. I liked the color of the round better but decided that the size was a little too large (can't believe I said that

). I hope the oval is as beautiful in person as it is in the picture.


DiamondLil

 

[canuk-gal]

HI:

Good for you!

Now how to set the new lovely......

cheers--Sharon

 

[Matata]

Congrats Diamondlil.....it''s great to have another convert to color among us!

 

[movie zombie]

Date: 6/29/2005 12:23:13 PM
Author: Matata
Congrats Diamondlil.....it''s great to have another convert to color among us!

yes, but i can''t believe she said the round #2 stone was too big!!!!

peace, movie zombie

 

[Patty]

Oh, I hope you love it!

I prefer the oval based on the photos.

 

[Sagebrush]

Raddygast,

Not an easy question so early in the morning even after my second cup of coffee.

Most of your questions are answered in the ruby chapter of my book.

On the subject of AGL Colorscan. I have the system and studied it under Cap Beesley. It is the best system out there, composed of quilted foils which reflect light so its closer to the look of a gem than most other systems. Unfortunately it fell victim to the grading system wars of the late 80''s. Beesley has never gotten along well with the nabobs at GIA and, well thats another story.

You and Beesley are in agreement. He too believes that an orange secondary hue "frames" the red hue and thus contributes to the saturation. Great minds, etc.. He came up with this during the time that the orangy red Thai ruby was briefly king of the hill before the new Burma production in the early 90s. "Classic Burma" which Beesley has trademarked simply refers to the look of the gem not the color grade. Classic pigeon blood is either bluish or purplish depending on how you look at it (blue and red make purple). Beesley will give a high grade to an oR. The secondary hue should, however, be no more than 15%.

 

[raddygast]

I really wish your book were carried by the major online and bookstore chain in Canada: Chapters/Indigo. However, every time I check it's only amazon.ca that has it and they don't offer the same membership discounts that Chapters does.

I wonder what would be involved in getting chapters.ca to stock your book, at least "virtually" in their online inventory.

About the grading system wars: I can understand and appreciate how a conflict and competition like that can weaken both sides. It's too bad. Was Colorscan not as popular because it was more complicated and expensive to use?

And there is one vindication. The AGL cert seems to be the de facto "uber" standard when it comes to collector-quality connoisseur colored stones. And the AGL report uses the Colorscan system, giving that system the aura of being much more refined than the crude GIA GemSet comparators.

 

[Sagebrush]

Raddygast,
The Colorscan system is much better than anything GIA has ever come up with. First there was the big box, then the nasty little plastic gems and now not sure.

With Colorscan, quality control was a problem. As he explained it Beesley had to personally check all the foils. The system I have does not, for example, cover all the hue/saturation/tone possibilities in gems like Mong Hsu rubies that were not in the market when his system came out. Also, not enough options in green tourmaline, etc. Too bad he and GIA could not get over their differences. Frankly, I think he just got tired of it and did not want to do the marketing. I he had I think the system would be the one in use today.

AGL is just about the only lab that offers quality analysis in colored stones so "de facto" they are the lab of choice. Problem is, the certificate is difficult to interpret. I have discussed that with Beesley. The comment section where he talks about treatment(s) is very carefully worded and it is necessary to know the difference between a "strong" and a "weak" treatment comment. I believe National Gemstone has a section that "explains" the AGL certificate. Also this trademarking of terminolgy is not helpful. How can one discuss the meaning of terms if one lab tradmarks which makes it necessary for other labs to use other terms, more confusion.

A signed copy of my book is available through our website (below) at 15% off the cover to match Amazon. There will not be any additional discounts. The 1st edition is close to being sold out. Books are only deeply discounted when there are overstocks and this book is not.

TKC, 70% is the tone of the color. Are you referring to the 2 carat currently on National Gemstone's site?

 

[Libster]

That''s going to be a beautiful ring!!!!! I can''t wait to see it

Ruby is my birthstone too

 

[diamondlil]

Thanks everyone for your support and positive comments. If I had made my decision a day earlier, I could have had the spinel in my hand today. It is coming Fed Ex and will probably be here later today or tomorrow. I am headed out the door right now for a jewelry show in Timonium, MD. I''ll look at some settings but have no plans to purchase anything just yet.

Have a great day!!

 

[Kaleigh]

Have fun at the jewelry show and let us know if you saw anything you liked. Can''t wait to see your stone!!

 

[FireGoddess]

Can''t wait to see some pictures of that beauty...I hope you love it and have fun at the show!

 

[BWise]

Cannot wait to see the spinel and the ring! Glad you picked one - they are both beautiful!

firegodess - you ring is so unique and pretty - very one of a kind shape and design!

 

[BrightSpot]

I can''t wait to see your spinel & the final ring! It''s going to be gorgeous!

Have fun at the jewelry show & have a great holiday weekend!

 

[FireGoddess]

Date: 7/1/2005 2:25:36 PM
Author: yingh
Cannot wait to see the spinel and the ring! Glad you picked one - they are both beautiful!

firegodess - you ring is so unique and pretty - very one of a kind shape and design!

Thanks so much yingh - that''s so sweet of you to say! I still catch myself staring at it sometimes...

!!

 

[TKC]

Date: 7/1/2005 7:48:15 AM
Author: Richard W. Wise

TKC, 70% is the tone of the color. Are you referring to the 2 carat currently on National Gemstone''s site?

Hi Richard, it seems that (the rubies that National Gemstones''s site) the higher color tone rubies have, the more expensive they are. I am talking about much more expensive even though only about 5% difference. I am comparing between the following two rubies:
http://www.preciousgemstones.com/114burufs.html
http://www.preciousgemstones.com/144burufs.html

The heated one with smaller size is even much more expensive than the unheated one is. I am talking about per carat price. I think the heated one would have cost at least $7,000 per carat, if it were the same size with the unheated one (1.44 carats). Also, compare the following rubies:
http://www.preciousgemstones.com/112burufs.html This ruby must be rare.
http://www.preciousgemstones.com/111burufs.html
Only 5% tone (on red tone) difference between above two rubies, the price is $4500 (per carat) different.
Anyone knows how to explain this? What is the highest red color tone rubies can achieve? Any of you has ruby(ies) with the red color tone over 80% graded by AGL?