Ebay dilemma: Should I leave neutral/neg feedback?

[Girlrocks]

Date: 1/25/2009 1:38:34 PM
Author: purrfectpear
Negative feedback for me is when the seller wants to stick me with their problem. Since the seller is willing to accept the piece back with a full refund, I would not neg.

IMO you either keep it for your bid, or you return it.

I 100% agree. She did state in the listing that there was "something" there, and included photos of whatever it is, even though one looks different from the other, you still bid on it even though you thought 1 photo was photoshopped. And she did offer a full refund. I agree with her not offering to pay for an appraisal, that is not her responsibility.

No negative or neutral feedback...leave none at all and either return it or keep it.

 

[VRBeauty]

Gliterata: I'm in a very similar situation with an antique ring I recently purchased. The picture was not terribly clear, but enough for me to question the seller about his description that the stones were "firey." The seller replied that the stones were only so-so, but the setting alone was worth the price. I offered about 30% less, and the offer was accepted. When the ring arrived I was shocked to find that it was obviously plucked from the scrap heap -- the prongs had been mutilated by someone attempting to remove the diamonds. When I wrote the seller he immediately offered a full refund.

I've decided to leave a neutral rating, noting that the ring was definately not as described but the seller offered a full refund. I am leaning towards noting that the ring was clearly scrap and not wearable -- still working that part through in my mind. As others have mentioned, I don't think it's right to leave a negative when the seller offered to make it right, but I also want to warn future buyers to beware.

I'm waiting to see whether the seller refunds my return shipping costs -- which he should do since the item was misrepresented -- before actually leaving the neutral. I'm also hoping that the over 100 positive ratings I've received from other sellers will insulate me from any fallout that might result from this transaction!

From what you've posted, your piece looks very special. I hope you can come to a resolution that you're comfortable with.

 

[Liane]

From the perspective of a potential buyer, I''d definitely want to know about this not-so-great transaction (in fact I''d dearly like to know who the sellers were in both these cases). It wouldn''t make much difference to me whether it showed up as negative or neutral, so long as there was some comment that clued me in on what had happened. So to the extent that third parties'' interests are considered (along with yours and the seller''s), I think that should tilt toward leaving some kind of information to guide other people. It need not be harsh or accusatory; just the facts are fine.

Putting the information in a "positive" comment wouldn''t be nearly as helpful. I read through several pages of feedback when I''m considering an expensive purchase, but eBay doesn''t show details on older transactions and Toolhaus filters out positives. It''s quite likely that even a conscientous buyer would miss a veiled positive, especially as time goes by and eBay erases the details.

 

[glitterata]

Wow, the advice here is so varied! It''s fascinating to see what different perspectives people have on this issue.

I think the pieces of advice that are hitting home hardest to me are the one from blastdoor, who said:

"secondly, based on my own experiences buying and selling online, people who are quick to offer rectifications are usually people who knows they''ll lose on reasoning... its what some of us sellers call "trying our luck"... meaning if someone sells a flawed product under pretences, and the buyer doesn''t notice the flaw during the return period, the seller is in luck, and gets to let of of a flawed item on good price... but when they do get "caught", they are usually nice and quick to offer refunds or other rectification measures so the buyer won''t kick up a fuss or leave bad feedbacks / ratings.."

and the one from Neil, who said:

"The picture has obviously been altered and she deserves a negative for that reason alone. [...] My advice is leave the negative because it''s true and it''s the right thing to do. Sometimes there are personal consequences for standing up for the truth. Often they are far more dire than this. Not to sound preachy but virtue is its own reward. If that means that you miss out on some deals in the future, so be it."

I showed the piece to a dealer friend this afternoon. She thought it was genuine, magnificent, unique, and exactly my style--she said she''d never seen one quite like it before, though she''s dealt with the more common mourning ones often enough. She thought the sentiment and quality made up for the damage. As for the price, she agreed it might be high for something this damaged, but she still thought I should keep it, even though she was outraged at the apparent dishonesty of the seller. (I said, "Do you think the seller could have missed the damage, if her eyesight really is getting worse?" My friend said, "Oh, please. That''s what loupes are for.")

Since most people seem to agree that asking for and receiving a partial refund would commit me to giving the seller a positive feedback, I''m now leaning toward not asking for a partial refund, but instead keeping the item and leaving a neutral feedback that says something along the lines of, "She seriously misrepresented the condition using altered photos. She offered a full refund when I called her on it, but I liked the piece enough to keep it anyway." (I know I''ll have to cut that down, since it''s too many characters long.)

Neil, is that brave enough to qualify as virtuous? Sellers, do you really think offering a refund morally compensates for posting altered pictures and misrepresenting damage in the first place?

I SOOOO wish I knew whether she was trying to cheat me or is just blind/incompetent.

 

[blastdoor]

I buy and sell on a few online auction sites... I maintain a 100% positive feedback on all my accounts, even the ones I''m selling on..

How do I do that?

I make sure I inspect every piece of merchandise carefully before I post them up for sale... and if it so happens that I bought a batch of goods to be sold and some of them are sub-quality, I would just post those that are good and bring the not-so-good ones either to a secondhand shop or a flea market vendor, and sell them off either at cost price or at a small loss.. but at least these people I''m selling to get to see and touch the flawed items before deciding if they actually want them or not..

A seller sells 100s of pieces of item so its easy to say "what''s one or two flawed ones in a batch of a hundred? its just 1 or 2 % of the total inventory.".. but coming from a buyer''s point-of-view, if the buyer buys an item and its a flawed one, that''s 100% of what he''s getting..

Finding enough trust and confidence to buy stuffs over the internet, especially when its something that costs a significant amount of money, is in itself a hard enough psychological hurdle to overcome... and buyers definitely do not need sellers making it harder by doctoring their pictures or blaming misrepresentation on failing eye-sight...

Take for example, many Pricescopers buy VS or SI diamonds based on the vendor''s feedback on whether the rock is eye-clean... imagine being assured that the diamond you are buying is eye-clean, then receiving it and seeing a huge patch of feathers right across the table, and the only thing the vendor can tell you is "oh, sorry... i must''ve forgotten to clean my glasses.." I would imagine, return policy or not, you''ll be pxssed..

IMO, a positive feedback should read something like "wow!! its a beauty!! i just love it!!" or "hey thanks a million, my grandmother just adores the xxx... thank you so much!!" and not anything less... as for neutral, well.. I guess its alright to leave a neutral, if that''s actually how you feel about the deal, not happy, not upset.. but for me, I wouldn''t be posting a deal on a forum if I''m just feeling neutral about it, but that''s just me (and my 2 cents of course)..

 

[blastdoor]

oops... i was typing (my last post) and didn''t see your latest post...

well... i think you''ve already more or less decided on what you intend to do, so please disregard what i just said...

you are happy with what you''ve bought and that''s the most important thing... all the best to you Gliterata..

btw, did I mentioned its a beautiful piece despite everything else? it is!!

 

[glitterata]

Thank you, blastdoor. I''m finding your comments extremely thought-provoking.

And in fact, I''m far from having decided what to do!

I just read some 200 of her positives carefully. Everyone else thinks she''s above-and-beyond honest. One had a problem with an "error" in the listing, received an immediate refund. One had something break in packing and she handled that "professionally." Everybody else just raved about how much better the pieces were than the descriptions and how much they loved them.

When I checked Toolhaus, she has 2 negatives, 5 neutrals, and 2 withdrawn, out of 5600+ total feedback. The most recent neg was in 2001. The most recent neutral was in 2006.

Is my experience just an anomaly? If she were a cheat, wouldn''t her dishonesty show up more in her feedback? But I keep coming back to the altered photo and the way she clearly stated that the obvious chip and crack weren''t a chip and a crack, when they really, really, really are.

I wish I didn''t have to make this decision. It''s killing me!

 

[arjunajane]

Date: 1/25/2009 8:42:19 PM
Author: glitterata
Thank you, blastdoor. I''m finding your comments extremely thought-provoking.

And in fact, I''m far from having decided what to do!

I just read some 200 of her positives carefully. Everyone else thinks she''s above-and-beyond honest. One had a problem with an ''error'' in the listing, received an immediate refund. One had something break in packing and she handled that ''professionally.'' Everybody else just raved about how much better the pieces were than the descriptions and how much they loved them.

When I checked Toolhaus, she has 2 negatives, 5 neutrals, and 2 withdrawn, out of 5600+ total feedback. The most recent neg was in 2001. The most recent neutral was in 2006.

Is my experience just an anomaly? If she were a cheat, wouldn''t her dishonesty show up more in her feedback? But I keep coming back to the altered photo and the way she clearly stated that the obvious chip and crack weren''t a chip and a crack, when they really, really, really are.

I wish I didn''t have to make this decision. It''s killing me!

Glitter, it certainly sounds like an anomaly - but honest people can always decide to start being dishonest too....
Would the amount the piece attracted with the damage disclosed be alot less than if not?
Or, like I mentioned earlier, perhaps she has someone dishonest helping her with the "computer stuff" if she is really old (but which is still of course her responsibility).

How would you feel about approaching her again with the info your dealer told you (that the damage couldn''t possibly be missed), and how you are conflicted, and see if you can''t find out for real what happened - perhaps approach it from a position of concern that you can telll easily the photo was doctored, does she have anyone else she needs to ask?
I don''t know, I guess thats probably too much trouble - it just seems if she has that much + f/b and is proud of her business, she should seem more concerned about this photoshopping, no?

I still think you should leave a neutral, personally.

 

[glitterata]

Arjuna, I can't figure out how much this would have gone for in perfect condition. I can't figure out how much it would have gone for if the damage had been properly disclosed. Possibly there were bidders who recognized the damage from the pictures that weren't altered, noticed the alteration in the doctored pictures, and didn't believe the description denying the damage, and therefore didn't bid. But possibly there were also bidders like me who read her feedback, asked questions, and gave her the benefit of the doubt.

Who knows? Maybe there were even bidders who would have bid MORE if she had disclosed the damage straightforwardly, because the fishy pix & description spooked them.

I think if the piece were perfect, I could have expected to pay a lot more for it. But I also think if the damage had been properly disclosed, I would probably have won it for less. But there's really no way to know.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I would only leave a negative for an item that was not as represented and a return was refused. Her feedback does seem to indicate she is not some evil, deceptive seller. And she did put your discussion on the listing.

I''d probably discuss with her your desire to keep the piece with an adjustment for the poorer than represented condition. If she does make the partial refund, then I''d leave her a positive but mention that the piece was not in the condition represented, but the seller worked with you. If she does not make a partial refund and instead wants you just to return it, I''d either leave a neutral stating that the item was not as represented but the seller did give you a refund or just leave no feedback.

 

[2Artists]

Hi Glitterata,

Curious post here. I'm not going to give you any advice on what to do, beyond that I will say that I have pretty much sworn off eBay myself for reasons such as the one you're encountering now. However, what I want to add is this: as a guy who has used Photoshop for hours a day for many years in a professional capacity, this looks to me like it's definitely been altered. I'm posting an 'enhanced' version of the picture you posted; All I've done is adjust the 'levels' in photoshop, a function that basically bumps up the contrast of the image. To my eye, and from my experience painting pictures with photoshop, it appears obvious that the 'doctored' section where the crack is doesn't look the same as the rest of the source photograph. For one, the natural texture of the surface becomes enhanced as you can see but not in the area where you suspect it's been altered. For another, it looks to me like a brush stroke done in photoshop because of the uniform width and the smooth airbrushed edges.
And as far as the bit about a scanner artifact, from my experience there this is not the type of thing that I've ever seen as a scanning artifact. More typical of that would be small specs or pieces of dust or hair that show up in high detail scans. You can see for yourself and decide, and of course it could be some kind of accident, but to me it appears to be deliberately altered.
For what it's worth....

Mr. 2Artists

 

[glitterata]

Thank you, Mr. 2Artists. Yeah, I''m 100% sure that photo''s been retouched. (I did the same thing with the contrast myself, plus Mr. Glitterata is an art guy like you, with decades of image-processing experience.) My question is: Why? And does the seller know about it? And if so, why is she lying about it?

Blech. It would all be so much easier if she were a straightforward, obvious crook. Then I would know what to do.

 

[T L]

Unfortunately ebay is a double edged sword. I bet most of us have found some of the best deals ever on ebay. I bet we could probably could not find these deals anywhere else unless we had the patience and fortitude to scour the country looking for that one perfect item for a perfect low price. The variety on ebay is enormous. However, the caveat is that there are lots of scam artists on ebay taking advantage of consumers. I have been an avid ebayer for over a decade, and I''ve scored unbelievable deals on jewelry and gems. All I can say is to not let this one incident scare you from using ebay to make purchases. There are honest sellers on ebay, the difficult part is to find them. I think once a buyer and a seller make a trust connection, it can be a rewarding experience for both.

 

[coatimundi_org]

Changing my answer from neg to neutral, because you are keeping the piece, and they are working with you. I recently received two partial refunds for two different items--I left positives for both. There was no doctoring of photos, though--just honest mistakes that were addressed promptly. Good Luck G!

 

[RBD hunter]

"I think if the piece were perfect, I could have expected to pay a lot more for it."
True and Most likely the case.
"But I also think if the damage had been properly disclosed, I would probably have won it for less."
Also true.
"But there''s really no way to know."
You could send it back for a full refund.
the seller or a seller will relist it at a later date.
It''s what they do to make a buck.
I see your torn becuase you really like the piece. (it does look nice) and I havent even seen the full view.

I do not worry about negitive feedback from a seller.......
You are the buyer,you pay in a timely fashion,you bought it in good faith.....Item misrepresented,you sent it back.

I believe someone reading your feedback will not fault you for buying something and returning it for a refund.
the next seller that has an item you want wants to make the sale,Your money is good.

You can negotiate a fair price (your offer for the condition)
if the seller says no.
send it back and have the seller email you when they relist the item....You can then try your hand at it again.

 

[glitterata]

I guess it comes down to this: Was it an honest mistake?

If I were sure it was, I would leave positive feedback because she tried to fix it.

If I were sure it wasn''t, I would leave neg or at best neutral feedback because she tried to cheat me.

But I can''t figure out whether it was or not, and that''s why I don''t know what to do.

 

[blastdoor]

what we the bystanders can see is, the photoshopping could not have been an "accident" hence any attempt to justify that part as an honest mistake is definitely out... but on the other hand, she is also ready and willing to offer you a refund...

and since there is probably no way anyone can determine for sure if she''d really made a mistake or made a cheat attempt, i guess the only thing you can rely on is your gut feel...

again, the diamond buying example... after all the lab certs, all the HCAs, all the IS, Asets, etc etc etc... it still all boils down to what''s your gut feel about the diamond itself.. like it, buy it... doubt it, pass it...

so its your call now, negative or neutral (or even positive)... you''ve listened to other''s opinions and looked at it from as many perspectives as you can, whatever you end up deciding to do, you''re right already... and i''m sure everyone here will agree with you...

 

[makemepretty]

In almost a decade I have never left someone a negative feedback. I firmly believe if you don''t have anything nice to say then don''t say anything at all. She offered you a full return/refund, if you''re not happy do that. It is ebay, not a store.

My advice, if you keep it, ask for a partial refund and leave no feedback. That way you both end up happy.

 

[T L]

Date: 1/26/2009 1:22:32 AM
Author: glitterata
I guess it comes down to this: Was it an honest mistake?

If I were sure it was, I would leave positive feedback because she tried to fix it.

If I were sure it wasn't, I would leave neg or at best neutral feedback because she tried to cheat me.

But I can't figure out whether it was or not, and that's why I don't know what to do.

I don't think that was an honest mistake at all. It was an intentional cover up of a crack, which is really stupid on her part. If someone is going to purchase such a specific item from a specific time period, I would imagine they are a lover of antiques and know more than the educated consumer about what they're dealing with. I cannot possibly believe she actually thought she could get away with covering up such an obvious flaw. If anything, she's pretty lacking in common sense. I wonder if she tried selling that before without the coverup and it never sold.

If I'm really unhappy with how something looked, I get a refund and I don't leave any feedback. If something is misrepresented, I will leave a very low star rating though.

 

[denverappraiser]

What she did could not have been an accident.
She specifically lied to cover it up when you asked about it.

It’s clearly in YOUR best interest to do nothing or even to get some compensation for your silence and it’s your conscience that’s leaving you conflicted. You wish to do no harm. I understand and I agree with you in your assessment of the issue. If you think there’s a reasonable chance that the two lines above are false than you should do nothing and if they are correct than you know what you should do. Only you can decide what is right.

We’re not talking about an execution here. A negative will be increasing her black marks visible in Toolhaus from 9 to 10 and will reduce her ebay score on this account from 100% to 99% for 6 months. A neutral will have exactly the same effect.

It *IS* a store. This is a highly experienced professional seller who’s been doing something on the order of 20 sales a week for years. Possibly a lot more because a lot of people don’t bother to leave feedback at all and not everything sells. That’s actually a pretty successful store.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[glitterata]

I strongly disagree with the "if you don''t have anything to say, don''t say anything" comment. The system depends on people who have bad experiences with a seller letting other potential buyers know about it, so that other buyers won''t be cheated. As Neil keeps pointing out, shutting up about a bad experience is selfish, not generous.

I''ve emailed the seller to give her a last chance to explain herself. If she can''t come up with a convincing alternative explanation to the "she''s a deceptive liar" theory, I''ll keep the piece but leave a neutral or negative.

 

[mrssalvo]

glittera, it''s nice you are giving her another chance. Depending on her response this time I would probably leave a neutral rather than the neg. It will still have the same effect and because she did offer the full refund I personally wouldn''t feel comfortable giving her the negative. But, a neutral stating the facts is in order for sure.

 

[glitterata]

Well, here's her answer:

"I can assure you I did not lie, [Glitterata]. We list many items and it is
not beyond imagination to understand that I missed something. To my
eyes, it looked as I described it. I have offered to refund you in
full for this item. I don't know what more I can do. If I missed it,
or made a mistake, it simply tells you I am not perfect. The item is
not perfect. If you wish to return it, I am certainly happy to refund
you in full including shipment costs both ways since it is something I
missed. But I can assure you, it was not intentional and I did not
lie to you.

"Our reputation shows you this is the case. We have never had a neutral
nor negative evalation from a buyer - in over 10 years on ebay.

"I think it's best to send thsi one back and allow us to refund.
Otherwise, you're not going to enjoy this item.

Cordially, [her name]"

In fact, Toolhaus shows that she had four neutrals from buyers. Two were withdrawn. One was from an inexperienced seller who seems not to have understood the feedback system well. And one was from a buyer who thought she overstated the condition of the piece. That's very, very few neutrals, but it's not none. All of them were in '06. I guess she could have forgotten about it. Maybe she's lying to herself so she doesn't have to believe she's lying to me.

Ugh.

 

[neatfreak]

Date: 1/26/2009 11:11:37 AM
Author: glitterata
Well, here''s her answer:


''I can assure you I did not lie, [Glitterata]. We list many items and it is

not beyond imagination to understand that I missed something. To my

eyes, it looked as I described it. I have offered to refund you in

full for this item. I don''t know what more I can do. If I missed it,

or made a mistake, it simply tells you I am not perfect. The item is

not perfect. If you wish to return it, I am certainly happy to refund

you in full including shipment costs both ways since it is something I

missed. But I can assure you, it was not intentional and I did not

lie to you.


''Our reputation shows you this is the case. We have never had a neutral

nor negative evalation from a buyer - in over 10 years on ebay.


''I think it''s best to send thsi one back and allow us to refund.

Otherwise, you''re not going to enjoy this item.


Cordially, [her name]''


In fact, Toolhaus shows that she had four neutrals from buyers. Two were withdrawn. One was from an inexperienced seller who seems not to have understood the feedback system well. And one was from a buyer who thought she overstated the condition of the piece. That''s very, very few neutrals, but it''s not none. All of them were in ''06. I guess she could have forgotten about it. Maybe she''s lying to herself so she doesn''t have to believe she''s lying to me.


Ugh.

This is so odd...but that photo really speaks for itself IMO. It really is obviously doctored...which is what I am having trouble with. I agree that if it was an honest mistake to leave positive, but this doesn''t seem like an honest mistake to me.

Did you call her on the photoshopping? I might have missed it somewhere.

 

[T L]

Date: 1/26/2009 10:26:08 AM
Author: glitterata
I strongly disagree with the ''if you don''t have anything to say, don''t say anything'' comment. The system depends on people who have bad experiences with a seller letting other potential buyers know about it, so that other buyers won''t be cheated. As Neil keeps pointing out, shutting up about a bad experience is selfish, not generous.

I''ve emailed the seller to give her a last chance to explain herself. If she can''t come up with a convincing alternative explanation to the ''she''s a deceptive liar'' theory, I''ll keep the piece but leave a neutral or negative.

You are absolutely right, and I really admire you for standing up for what is right and true. I just wish the ebay feedback system wasn''t so flawed.

 

[glitterata]

Date: 1/26/2009 11:19:16 AM
Author: neatfreak
This is so odd...but that photo really speaks for itself IMO. It really is obviously doctored...which is what I am having trouble with. I agree that if it was an honest mistake to leave positive, but this doesn''t seem like an honest mistake to me.


Did you call her on the photoshopping? I might have missed it somewhere.

I did call her on the photoshopping. She doesn''t address it in this email. Here''s what she said about it in an earlier email:

"I see where you mean, but I can assure you, we never use
photoshop to eliminate a flaw. The ones on which you don''t see
it are flat scanned images, which might be as I mentioned: the
line shows more at a slight angle than directly on. Our
photographer takes photos of glass-covered items from a slight
angle to avoid having nothing but a huge light glare, so those
photos capture the line far better than the straight-on flatbed
scanner did. It''s all I can figure out for a reason. But I assure
you, no one would have photoshopped out anything. We don''t
want an item to come back, remember. We like happy buyers!
Thanks!"

That''s the last I''ve heard from her on that subject.

Now I think I''m going to tell her that the last little lie--the one about having no negs or neutrals from buyers--broke the camel''s back. Then I''m going to go ahead and leave the neutral. I hope this doesn''t ruin my career as a collector.

Heavens, what a long, agonizing fuss about such a little thing! Thanks for all your advice and patience, everyone.

 

[Judah Gutwein]

Ditto, Ditto, Ditto, to DenverAppraisers assesment.

I feel so sorry for you and wish you the best resolution possible.
Hang in there.

 

[glitterata]

One last piece of advice: Should I mention the doctored photos in my feedback, or just say that the seller misrepresented the damage but offered a full refund?

 

[strmrdr]

I would leave neutral if keeping it.

I would say something like: several imaging experts have stated that the image may have been altered in photoshop to make the crack less visible.
Of course mentioning that she offered a full refund and that you kept it because you loved it and even with the damage considered the price fair.

 

[glitterata]

Thanks, Karl--feedback gives you only 80 characters total, so I probably can''t fit all that in. If I can''t fit the stuff about several imaging experts'' opinions, should I leave out the accusation of doctored photos?