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EGL certification - are any of them ok?

Date: 5/13/2010 2:30:23 PM
Author: kenny
If soft color and clarity grading is okay because that's how capitalism works, then I'm starting a lab that adds 20% weight to every diamond we grade.

Just think of all the ladies who think they got a full one carat for the price of 3/4 carat, and how happy they'll be.

Think how proud the boyfriends will be that they could afford a full carat.

Same thing.
Deception.

Yes color and clarity is human judgement but GIA and AGS use humans and have upheld their reputations.
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Sales by weight is an attribute that is specifically regulated by the government and there's LOTS of laws about it that cover everything from grain to concrete. Clarity, color and cut are not in this same category.

A consumer who feels that they have made a purchase that’s been materially misrepresented by the seller, DOES have recourse through the courts by the way. It would probably be against the seller, not the lab, and it would not be an easy case to make, at least if this topic is the issue. "I told her it was an EGL-SI3/J and it is." What about that is misrepresented? (assuming it's correct of course)

Don't get me wrong, I find this whole thing incredibly annoying and not in the public interest. That's why I keep on talking about it here and elsewhere. I just don't see it as criminal. Consumers are largely the ones who are driving it and consumers are the ones who can stop it.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
 
The onus is on the dealer. The reason color and clarity will never be regulated in the way that weights and measurements are is that there''s a subjective nature to color and clarity grading.
I suppose the second tier labs stand solidly on that platform.

Dealers who knowingly represent false grades are another matter.

I agree that "borderline" stones are particular areas where soft grading is desired by dealers looking to capitalize on mis-grading.
Personally I find that it''s a much bigger problem on higher grades.
Basically, if someone buys an EGL J/SI2, hopefully, they are paying a fairly low price.
If they buy a D/VS1, they are paying a lot more, and the consequences of the misgrade, in terms of actual dollars, is a lot larger.
 
Super uneducated consumer here, in comparison to this thread''s company... but may I ask a question concerning the EGL certs?

I love OEC and OMC cut stones. I find that VERY few of them have a GIA cert. Any particular reason for this??

I do find that most of the stones are in the "warmer" range anyway; is this the soft grading working again in the seller''s favor? I.E. Showing certs with stones in the "warm" range when that typically is the favorable range for the OEC/OMC buyers anyway?

While I understand I am speaking in huge generalities here, I am just seeking to understand why most of the older stones are graded this way.

I personally have a 1.52 M VVS2 EGL-USA OEC...not that I ever intend on selling it, but would there be an advantage to sending it in to get a GIA cert?
 
The cut grade for the round OEC. GIA will assign it a less than Ex cut grade, probably a Good to Poor cut grade. Just look at what grades GOG's August Vintage Rounds achieve with GIA report. How fast will the stone move then?
 
TBjumper- your''s is exactly the type of stone where the report won''t make all that much difference (if) when you go to sell it. In the lower color grades it''s less of an issue. Personally I prefer GIA''s even on old mine cuts, but there are some sellers who are well thought of using EGL on older stones.
I''ve bought a few old stones from other dealers with EGL reports, and submitted them to GIA.
On one occasion, a stone graded O-P color by EGL got Fancy Light Brownish Yellow from GIA

Re-sale is a big consideration.
Many days we get calls from consumers wanting to sell their diamond.
My first question is always "Does it have a GIA report"
There''s been many occasions where people believed they had GIA reports only to learn they had either an appraisal, or an EGL ( or other )report.

In your case, unless you really want to find out what GIA would call it, my advice would be to leave it as is.
 
Date: 5/13/2010 2:09:42 PM
Author: kenny
I wonder if the top brass at EGL, or the employees who grade diamonds, read these threads and are concerned for their jobs.
I wonder if they feel any remorse.

Do they show their faces at industry conferences?
If so are they shunned and excommunicated to bad tables next to the kitchen at luncheons?

I also wonder the same thing for the many many vendors who carry EGL stones.
Aren''t they ashamed?

Perhaps they do not know that Pricescope exists.
If they do they must be really mad that this is being exposed.
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Yes. EGL USA and EGL Israel both had booths at the last Jewelers of America trade show that I attended recently in NY.
This trade show is open to bona fide retailers and appraisers...not the buying public or manufacturers.
 
Thanks everyone!
 
Date: 5/13/2010 2:09:42 PM
Author: kenny
I wonder if the top brass at EGL, or the employees who grade diamonds, read these threads and are concerned for their jobs.

I wonder if they feel any remorse.

Do they show their faces at industry conferences?

If so are they shunned and excommunicated to bad tables next to the kitchen at luncheons?

I also wonder the same thing for the many many vendors who carry EGL stones.

Aren't they ashamed?

Perhaps they do not know that Pricescope exists.

If they do they must be really mad that this is being exposed.
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There are only 5 companies accepted by Pricescope for grading of stones in the database. EGL-USA and EGL International are 2 of them and a significant fraction of the stones advertised here are graded by one or the other. That's not shunning them, it's an endorsement.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
 
In the area where I live, there are three independent jewelry stores where you can buy diamonds, and several malls with the usual (Zales, Kay''s etc). Plus there are the jewelry sections in Walmart and Kaymart (don''t laugh, people do buy there) and Costco.

Out of all those places there is ONE where you can buy a GIA certed stone. There is NOWHERE where you could find an AGS certed stone--if you have heard of such a thing and have an interest, you have to go to the internet. There''s no choice.

But ALL of the stores, including Walmart have certs with a large percentage of their stones. I think at Walmart it is IGI, but there''s kind of a whole bunch of no-name labs out there certifying diamonds with official looking papers. At Zales, it is ''Gemscan''. Many of the Walmart stones, and some at Zales, too, are graded even by these ''soft'' labs at scary low grades. I mean, they are selling stones that are IGI I2''s--and you can have a laminated piece of paper to ''prove'' it. Obviously there is a large market out there for this kind of thing. Consumers have gotten the idea that a diamond is better with a piece of paper attached, but really have no idea what the things written on the piece of paper mean.

The one store that does sell GIA stones also sells EGL-USA stones and I think does a brisk business in them because they do appear to be a better bargain. I mean, you see something marked as a F VS stone costing 15% more with a GIA cert than it does with the EGL-USA cert, and you know nothing about it--you assume it is the same thing. I''ve been in the store with friends (intelligent people,well-educated in other things) who just keep repeating that the diamond looks the ''same'' to them and that the EGL looks ''just fine''and that it''s ''pretty'' and they have no idea why anyone would want to buy the more expensive GIA stone. They do not know that GIA is the standard. Many of the EGL stones are eye clean and white and sparkly (at least in the jewelry store lights) and given those three things, all people want to minimize the money spent and to maximize the size.

In this case, the jewelry that sells both GIA and EGL certed stones does make a price difference. It is about 15%. Of course the prices are not what they would be online--but 99% of the people I know are still terrified at the idea of buying something as expensive as a diamond on the internet. And (to be fair) the B & M does have rent and so forth that online stores don''t have.

I think you are going to find this kind of thing happening so long as that is the situation--and I do fault the customers that do not bother to educated themselves quite a bit, to tell you the truth.
 
Date: 5/12/2010 8:00:26 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
I love the non GIA reports.

The lamination is very good, so they work great in the bottom of a birdcage.


OK- bad joke, but the bottom of a bird cage really one of the best uses for these non GIA reports.

My advice is not to trust the non GIA grading- furthermore, if a dealer trying to sell you a diamond has not made this clear to you, they have demonstrated some very undesirable characteristics as a seller.
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What a rude comment. I have an EGL USA certed stone and I have had it looked at by 2 different GG''s... It actually IS graded properly. Perhaps you didn''t realize that saying such a rude, offhand comment like that would piss people off...
38.gif
 
Gee, it was a joke....
Sorry if it offended anyone.

The fact is, the report being bad does not make the stone bad.
Which I have also made clear here in the thread
35.gif
 
Date: 5/13/2010 5:37:14 PM
Author: Black Jade
In the area where I live, there are three independent jewelry stores where you can buy diamonds, and several malls with the usual (Zales, Kay's etc). Plus there are the jewelry sections in Walmart and Kaymart (don't laugh, people do buy there) and Costco.

Out of all those places there is ONE where you can buy a GIA certed stone. There is NOWHERE where you could find an AGS certed stone--if you have heard of such a thing and have an interest, you have to go to the internet. There's no choice.

But ALL of the stores, including Walmart have certs with a large percentage of their stones. I think at Walmart it is IGI, but there's kind of a whole bunch of no-name labs out there certifying diamonds with official looking papers. At Zales, it is 'Gemscan'. Many of the Walmart stones, and some at Zales, too, are graded even by these 'soft' labs at scary low grades. I mean, they are selling stones that are IGI I2's--and you can have a laminated piece of paper to 'prove' it. Obviously there is a large market out there for this kind of thing. Consumers have gotten the idea that a diamond is better with a piece of paper attached, but really have no idea what the things written on the piece of paper mean.

The one store that does sell GIA stones also sells EGL-USA stones and I think does a brisk business in them because they do appear to be a better bargain. I mean, you see something marked as a F VS stone costing 15% more with a GIA cert than it does with the EGL-USA cert, and you know nothing about it--you assume it is the same thing. I've been in the store with friends (intelligent people,well-educated in other things) who just keep repeating that the diamond looks the 'same' to them and that the EGL looks 'just fine'and that it's 'pretty' and they have no idea why anyone would want to buy the more expensive GIA stone. They do not know that GIA is the standard. Many of the EGL stones are eye clean and white and sparkly (at least in the jewelry store lights) and given those three things, all people want to minimize the money spent and to maximize the size.

In this case, the jewelry that sells both GIA and EGL certed stones does make a price difference. It is about 15%. Of course the prices are not what they would be online--but 99% of the people I know are still terrified at the idea of buying something as expensive as a diamond on the internet. And (to be fair) the B & M does have rent and so forth that online stores don't have.

I think you are going to find this kind of thing happening so long as that is the situation--and I do fault the customers that do not bother to educated themselves quite a bit, to tell you the truth.
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I visit stores of all kinds and just listen/observe to feel the 'pulse' of what's happening. You've written an excellent summary that I believe represents a good number of commercial markets in the US.
 
Date: 5/13/2010 4:48:08 PM
Author: TBjumper
Super uneducated consumer here, in comparison to this thread's company... but may I ask a question concerning the EGL certs?

I love OEC and OMC cut stones. I find that VERY few of them have a GIA cert. Any particular reason for this??

I do find that most of the stones are in the 'warmer' range anyway; is this the soft grading working again in the seller's favor? I.E. Showing certs with stones in the 'warm' range when that typically is the favorable range for the OEC/OMC buyers anyway?

While I understand I am speaking in huge generalities here, I am just seeking to understand why most of the older stones are graded this way.

I personally have a 1.52 M VVS2 EGL-USA OEC...not that I ever intend on selling it, but would there be an advantage to sending it in to get a GIA cert?
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Yes there is and it is primarily related to the description name on the grading report.

GIA has strict numerical cutoff criteria to distinguish between an RB and OEC and dealers of antiques don't want the report to say RB on the instead of OEC. If the lower halves aren't short enough, crown angles aren't steep enough, table isn't small enough or culet isn't large enough. GIA will still call something an RB if more than 2 out of the 4 criteria aren't met.

In addition GIA hasn't used the term Old Mine Cut on a grading report in over 20 years if ever (rightfully so this term is misused very often especially on PS), and they also have strict criteria to distinguish between Old Mine Brilliant and Cushion Brilliant similar to between RB and OEC. Antique gem dealers want their stones to be described on a grading report with the traditional names and to reflect their appearance otherwise it is confusing for their customers who are looking for truly antique items.

Also EGL-USA is cheaper and can also can have a faster turnaround time.

It really isn't a big deal if an antique stone is given a color grade of L M or N. In the lower colors the price doesn't change that much within this range so there as much of an incentive in this case as in the colorless or near colorless range.

I wrote an article on GIA and AGS naming conventions and am patiently waiting for the reviewer to accept my final set of corrections so it can be published on pricescope.
 
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