Electric cars ... something to consider ...

[kenny]

Thanks for posting that jarron.
It's always better to hear more sides of the story.

 

[Gloria27]

Quick reply because I'm running out, but we have a Tesla that is, I think 4 years old now, and the Tesla charging infrastructure in the UK is fantastic. We do have a home charger and wanted to put up solar panels but weren't allowed, so use an energy company as committed to renewable energy as possible. I know EVs aren't perfect, and there are some inconveniences and some long-term things to sort out, but IMO they're still preferable to spewing out exhaust every time you drive.

Re the people who say their Teslas stop charging properly, presumably they haven't ignored the advice to set a charging limit that stops it before the battery is full? We only ever charge ours to 100% if we're doing a long trip and honestly haven't lost any battery life in 4 years.

1. The grid isn't there yet for all people to be able to charge EVs, it would crash 2. That energy that I'd use to charge my car isn't green at all, it's actually very dirty. 3. Why the hell would I want to make Greta happy?

There is a future for EVs but also alternative fuel. Until then we're burning coal/using oil to keep the grid going and charge those EVs (while feeling green and keeping fake carbon footprint scores, cause it's all about feelings nowdays).

 

[jaaron]

1. The grid isn't there yet for all people to be able to charge EVs, it would crash 2. That energy that I'd use to charge my car isn't green at all, it's actually very dirty. 3. Why the hell would I want to make Greta happy?

There is a future for EVs but also alternative fuel. Until then we're burning coal/using oil to keep the grid going and charge those EVs (while feeling green and keeping fake carbon footprint scores, cause it's all about feelings nowdays).

Wow. That's aggressive and also a fairly reductive reply. If your goal is the unhappiness of a 20 year old you'll never meet, there's not much I can say. But overall, it's not about feelings and it's much more complicated.

Basically there are five elements of car pollution.

1) Making the car
2) Making the fuel for the car
3) Running the car for it's lifetime and
4) Scrapping the car
5) Longevity of the car

EV's generally have between 1/5 and 1/3 of the pollution of ICE (petrol and diesel) vehicles when adding together the first 4 things.

Mr Atkinson's piece only focussed on issue 1.

The bigger one is actually 3, as running a vehicle for its lifetime is the biggest polluter and EV's are far better in that regard.

Basically the breakdown of the categories above:
1) ICE vehicles are best
2) EV's are best by far
3) EV's are best by far and
4) jury is out, but if the model of reusing batteries as storage works, they are about equal.
5) jury still out BUT we are seeing EV's at 250k+ miles still completely usable and with good batteries, which definitely wouldn't be the case with ICE. The view is that generally EV's are going to have longer lifespans than ICE vehicles.

 

[Gloria27]

Wow. That's aggressive and also a fairly reductive reply. If your goal is the unhappiness of a 20 year old you'll never meet, there's not much I can say. But overall, it's not about feelings and it's much more complicated.

Basically there are five elements of car pollution.

1) Making the car
2) Making the fuel for the car
3) Running the car for it's lifetime and
4) Scrapping the car
5) Longevity of the car

EV's generally have between 1/5 and 1/3 of the pollution of ICE (petrol and diesel) vehicles when adding together the first 4 things.

Mr Atkinson's piece only focussed on issue 1.

The bigger one is actually 3, as running a vehicle for its lifetime is the biggest polluter and EV's are far better in that regard.

Basically the breakdown of the categories above:
1) ICE vehicles are best
2) EV's are best by far
3) EV's are best by far and
4) jury is out, but if the model of reusing batteries as storage works, they are about equal.
5) jury still out BUT we are seeing EV's at 250k+ miles still completely usable and with good batteries, which definitely wouldn't be the case with ICE. The view is that generally EV's are going to have longer lifespans than ICE vehicles.

))) where do you get your info?

Have you heard of cobalt or rare earth metals?
Are you aware of the amount of environmental destruction and slave labour that it takes to mine those?
Do you think there is enough of that to build cars (EVs) for everyone or do you wanna ride a bicyle?
What would Greta do?

 

[Gloria27]

Wow. That's aggressive and also a fairly reductive reply. If your goal is the unhappiness of a 20 year old you'll never meet, there's not much I can say. But overall, it's not about feelings and it's much more complicated.

Basically there are five elements of car pollution.

1) Making the car
2) Making the fuel for the car
3) Running the car for it's lifetime and
4) Scrapping the car
5) Longevity of the car

EV's generally have between 1/5 and 1/3 of the pollution of ICE (petrol and diesel) vehicles when adding together the first 4 things.

Mr Atkinson's piece only focussed on issue 1.

The bigger one is actually 3, as running a vehicle for its lifetime is the biggest polluter and EV's are far better in that regard.

Basically the breakdown of the categories above:
1) ICE vehicles are best
2) EV's are best by far
3) EV's are best by far and
4) jury is out, but if the model of reusing batteries as storage works, they are about equal.
5) jury still out BUT we are seeing EV's at 250k+ miles still completely usable and with good batteries, which definitely wouldn't be the case with ICE. The view is that generally EV's are going to have longer lifespans than ICE vehicles.

I wrote my reply hastily and missed the opportunity to destroy all of your pseudo-arguments.

1. Making the car involves sourcing the materials and involves mining, refining, producing all kinds of technologies and keeping the pipeline going, meaning any disruption in distribution/supplier chains like Covid or the ship that got stuck in Suez can delay production and stop factories for months. There are chip shortages right now affecting production. I hope you can see how that can affect EVs disproportionately.

2. Making the fuel aka electricity can be challenging depending on where you live. Have you seen those videos where people charge their EVs and the charging station runs on diesel? Why?

3. Utilizing the car for a long time is not only based on reliability of the car, but the car has to survive crashes and to be repairable. EVs are being written off from minor crashes, did you know? You cannot repair them, the makers won't let you. Also the risk of fire is not negligible, I wouldn't put one in my garage unless the garage was only for one particular EV and far away from my house and other vehicles 'cause you cannot put them off once they're on fire, did you know that?

4. Scrapping them, well again scapping means storing them somewhere first. Guess which is more problematic and why.

5. Longevity. Most cars reach 250k miles easily, mine's over 200k already, it's a freaking tank. Batteries in cars don't last 20 years, sorry, and technology evolves rendering your car obsolete in less than that. Charging ports have changed too.

and I could go on and on....



I'm all for clean air, don't get me wrong, I just don't see EVs taking over just yet.

 

[LilAlex]

It is such a mess out there for EVs. We are long-time owners of a fairly long-range cheapie domestic EV (never Tesla; see below) and it is a huge hassle to go more than a charge away. We have a fast (220V) charger at home that meets our needs for local driving and that can quick-release from our garage and fits a camper plug -- but that requires too much planning for non-retirees. (And, at off-hours, we have dirt-cheap non-polluting electricity at home.) Tried to go over 300 mi once during COVID but all the charge-station locator apps lead you to two-charger hole-in-the-wall stations where one is broken and the other is in use. Or they are a "proprietary electron provider" and you need to open a $50 credit on some sparse network never to be used again.

Just this past week, we were in an (the?) enormous midwest city and got talked into a Volvo C40 EV for no extra charge. Hard "no" from me -- but spouse insisted this was a great opportunity (and later sheepishly uttered the seldom-heard "you were right"). It was a complete fiasco. No manual, of course, since a rental. Atrocious interface (I mean it's fine unless you are trying to do anything.) We were unable to turn off the vehicle. After 10 min of online searching, it seemed like the solution was "open the driver door and exit the vehicle." Oh, why didn't we think of that?? Maybe also: "Do NOT look back at vehicle."

It was provided to us at 85% charge and we needed to bring it back at "at least 70% charge." We managed to find a massive charging station that was card-only (no more app-based thievery) and completely empty. What are the odds! First charger was "unavailable" (according to the LCD screen). The second would not pair with our vehicle. The third would not read our card. The fourth worked flawlessly. They were all within 10 feet of each other. And unlike any other EV I have used, you had to push a mystery electronic button (that did not look like a button) to remove the plug when you're done.

Yes, Tesla is fine if you live in the populated West or NE and you stick to the Tesla ecosystem. I would never buy a Tesla before because of the price. Now I will never buy anything Tesla even if it were to mean that I'm the last gas-hog-driving idiot on the planet; I will not give one penny to that smug, evil sh$thead who seems to get worse by the hour.

 

[jaaron]

I wrote my reply hastily and missed the opportunity to destroy all of your pseudo-arguments.

1. Making the car involves sourcing the materials and involves mining, refining, producing all kinds of technologies and keeping the pipeline going, meaning any disruption in distribution/supplier chains like Covid or the ship that got stuck in Suez can delay production and stop factories for months. There are chip shortages right now affecting production. I hope you can see how that can affect EVs disproportionately.

2. Making the fuel aka electricity can be challenging depending on where you live. Have you seen those videos where people charge their EVs and the charging station runs on diesel? Why?

3. Utilizing the car for a long time is not only based on reliability of the car, but the car has to survive crashes and to be repairable. EVs are being written off from minor crashes, did you know? You cannot repair them, the makers won't let you. Also the risk of fire is not negligible, I wouldn't put one in my garage unless the garage was only for one particular EV and far away from my house and other vehicles 'cause you cannot put them off once they're on fire, did you know that?

4. Scrapping them, well again scapping means storing them somewhere first. Guess which is more problematic and why.

5. Longevity. Most cars reach 250k miles easily, mine's over 200k already, it's a freaking tank. Batteries in cars don't last 20 years, sorry, and technology evolves rendering your car obsolete in less than that. Charging ports have changed too.

and I could go on and on....



I'm all for clean air, don't get me wrong, I just don't see EVs taking over just yet.

I actually think you missed the opportunity to 'destroy my pseudoarguments' by not being as good at it as you think.

Cobalt mining. Yes, not good at all. But I'm assuming you wrote this post by smoke signal and all your communications are by landline? Because, if not, I have a little news for you. Oh, and also assuming you don't have any diamonds, because, a bit more news for you there...

1. All car manufacture is subject to delays due to shortage of materials. Yes, EVs generally utilitise more semi conductors per car than ICE vehicles do, but ICE vehicles are also reliant on them, so are also vulnerable to shortages, just as they were equally dependent on the seat foam that was in short supply. That's also an argument that makes very little sense. It's like saying a shortage in olive oil due to a temporary drought in Italy means we should all cook with Crisco.

2. I haven't seen those videos, because it sounds like a waste of time, but people do all kinds of stupid things. If you live somewhere that charging is that enormous an obstacle, and you buy an EV regardless, your decision-making may not be all that great. A little hard to blame that on the car, I think?

3. Of course you can repair an electric car. If the battery is damaged, it might be an expensive repair, but it is repairable. I understand that Tesla Model Ys have an issue that makes battery repair difficult as it's built into the car in a different way, so it's probably wise to avoid them for that reason.
The risk of fire exists, but it is, in fact, negligible. Yes, they are harder to put out than conventional car fires, but less likely to occur. If I lived somewhere prone to flooding with sea water, I would probably not keep an EV in my garage, but otherwise, it seems like a calculated small risk.

Gas vs. Electric Car Fires in 2024 (Shocking Stats)| AutoinsuranceEZ.com

Gas vs. electric car fires comparison show insurance rates of $120/month for gas cars and $100/month for electric cars. Compare car fire stats to find the best choice.

www.autoinsuranceez.com

4. Um, not sure I understand this one?

5. Car batteries are designed to last for a long time. I believe the latest numbers are 300,000-500,000 miles. Cars come with adaptors to enable you to use different types of charging ports. It would be self-defeating for the industry to render cars obsolete that way. I certainly have not heard of anyone claiming their car has become unchargeable.

5. In addition to driving an electric car, I do ride a bicycle actually. It's good for me and for the environment. Is that something you consider worthy of mockery? And why do you keep mentioning Greta? Do you have some kind of obsession?

@LilAlex

I do agree with you about that psychotic, narcissistic pile of human garbage. All I can say is that we bought ours before the real EM was unveiled.

 

[Gloria27]

I actually think you missed the opportunity to 'destroy my pseudoarguments' by not being as good at it as you think.

Cobalt mining. Yes, not good at all. But I'm assuming you wrote this post by smoke signal and all your communications are by landline? Because, if not, I have a little news for you. Oh, and also assuming you don't have any diamonds, because, a bit more news for you there...

1. All car manufacture is subject to delays due to shortage of materials. Yes, EVs generally utilitise more semi conductors per car than ICE vehicles do, but ICE vehicles are also reliant on them, so are also vulnerable to shortages, just as they were equally dependent on the seat foam that was in short supply. That's also an argument that makes very little sense. It's like saying a shortage in olive oil due to a temporary drought in Italy means we should all cook with Crisco.

2. I haven't seen those videos, because it sounds like a waste of time, but people do all kinds of stupid things. If you live somewhere that charging is that enormous an obstacle, and you buy an EV regardless, your decision-making may not be all that great. A little hard to blame that on the car, I think?

3. Of course you can repair an electric car. If the battery is damaged, it might be an expensive repair, but it is repairable. I understand that Tesla Model Ys have an issue that makes battery repair difficult as it's built into the car in a different way, so it's probably wise to avoid them for that reason.
The risk of fire exists, but it is, in fact, negligible. Yes, they are harder to put out than conventional car fires, but less likely to occur. If I lived somewhere prone to flooding with sea water, I would probably not keep an EV in my garage, but otherwise, it seems like a calculated small risk.

Gas vs. Electric Car Fires in 2024 (Shocking Stats)| AutoinsuranceEZ.com

Gas vs. electric car fires comparison show insurance rates of $120/month for gas cars and $100/month for electric cars. Compare car fire stats to find the best choice.

www.autoinsuranceez.com

4. Um, not sure I understand this one?

5. Car batteries are designed to last for a long time. I believe the latest numbers are 300,000-500,000 miles. Cars come with adaptors to enable you to use different types of charging ports. It would be self-defeating for the industry to render cars obsolete that way. I certainly have not heard of anyone claiming their car has become unchargeable.

5. In addition to driving an electric car, I do ride a bicycle actually. It's good for me and for the environment. Is that something you consider worthy of mockery? And why do you keep mentioning Greta? Do you have some kind of obsession?

@LilAlex

I do agree with you about that psychotic, narcissistic pile of human garbage. All I can say is that we bought ours before the real EM was unveiled.

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about in regards to the automotive industry.
I just explained to you about cobalt and mining and rare earth elements and the destruction of the environment. Just because it happens in countries far away it doesn't mean it's not happening. When you buy your electric car, a new phone etc, that's what's happening, more cobalt mining.
The are entire continents that use coal and will keep using coal, endless landfills that are burning.
Using an electric car just clears up the air in your neighbourhood, the rest of the world keeps burning...where does your electricity come from? the coal power station 50 miles away?

Elon has done more for the world than you'll ever dream of doing in 10 lifetimes.

What did Greta actually do except put on angry faces in front of the camera and faking being arrested at protests and deleting her old predictions (that didn't come true) from tweeter?

 

[tyty333]

The Tesla SuperChargers give you between 250-500 miles range per hour charged.
Say you're heading on a trip from NYC to Miami.
The car will plan the route and you'll have to charge 10 times maybe....but if you think about it, stopping every couple hundred miles to rest, use the facilities, etc...watch a little Netflix on your giant screen
Or stop overnight at a hotel offering charging facilities.
If there's a "normal" charging station- 220volts..you get 25-40 miles per hour charged. These are far more common. Now that I'm conscious of it I see charging stations at more and more parking lots- hotels, restaurants, ski areas,etc,...

As far as emergency situations....seems like buying gas during an evacuation is very difficult too....I could easily see times when electricity is more readily available than gas.
I see companies now putting solar panels in the roof, so a car can self charge....
I'm with @rainwood ...and I have been a car lover my whole life...I can't see going back to ICE motoring....

Hard to buy gas during an evacuation...

Very true! Planning early and keeping your tank fairly full just in case something might* head your direction is the only way to
beat the problem. We've never had the problem of running out once on the road, but leaving without a full tank would surely
be an issue. I think it will be an issue with electric cars (and evacuations) until the infrastructure is built up a little more.

Are there any portable charging "stations" on tow trucks that can give you a small quick charge to get you to the next charging
station? Wonder if that might be a good option in the case of a major evacuation. Is there a way to reserve a charging station
for a certain period of time so you'll know you'll have access to one when you need it?

My DH and I have discussed EVs a little. Our cars are both fairly new, 4 and 6 years old, so we won't need a new car for
a while. One of each was the conclusion we thought would work. Like if one of our cars is totaled or something. Can't really answer
the question for 5 years down the road when we will actually be closer to replacing one of them but an EV for around town
makes sense.

Interesting conversation!

 

[Rockdiamond]

Are there any portable charging "stations" on tow trucks that can give you a small quick charge to get you to the next charging
station? Wonder if that might be a good option in the case of a major evacuation. Is there a way to reserve a charging station
for a certain period of time so you'll know you'll have access to one when you need it?

With Tesla- the in car system tells you how many available chargers at the station you've programmed it to get to. They also have a system where you get penalized if you stay in the charger space after you're done charging.

About getting a charge on the road....
I saw a funny you tube where a guy had a gas powered electric generator in his trunk for such a situation.....
But in general- as time goes on, there's going to be more and more charging options available.
I've got friends with solar panels that are able to charge their electric vehicles free.

 

[monarch64]

It is such a mess out there for EVs. We are long-time owners of a fairly long-range cheapie domestic EV (never Tesla; see below) and it is a huge hassle to go more than a charge away. We have a fast (220V) charger at home that meets our needs for local driving and that can quick-release from our garage and fits a camper plug -- but that requires too much planning for non-retirees. (And, at off-hours, we have dirt-cheap non-polluting electricity at home.) Tried to go over 300 mi once during COVID but all the charge-station locator apps lead you to two-charger hole-in-the-wall stations where one is broken and the other is in use. Or they are a "proprietary electron provider" and you need to open a $50 credit on some sparse network never to be used again.

Just this past week, we were in an (the?) enormous midwest city and got talked into a Volvo C40 EV for no extra charge. Hard "no" from me -- but spouse insisted this was a great opportunity (and later sheepishly uttered the seldom-heard "you were right"). It was a complete fiasco. No manual, of course, since a rental. Atrocious interface (I mean it's fine unless you are trying to do anything.) We were unable to turn off the vehicle. After 10 min of online searching, it seemed like the solution was "open the driver door and exit the vehicle." Oh, why didn't we think of that?? Maybe also: "Do NOT look back at vehicle."

It was provided to us at 85% charge and we needed to bring it back at "at least 70% charge." We managed to find a massive charging station that was card-only (no more app-based thievery) and completely empty. What are the odds! First charger was "unavailable" (according to the LCD screen). The second would not pair with our vehicle. The third would not read our card. The fourth worked flawlessly. They were all within 10 feet of each other. And unlike any other EV I have used, you had to push a mystery electronic button (that did not look like a button) to remove the plug when you're done.

Yes, Tesla is fine if you live in the populated West or NE and you stick to the Tesla ecosystem. I would never buy a Tesla before because of the price. Now I will never buy anything Tesla even if it were to mean that I'm the last gas-hog-driving idiot on the planet; I will not give one penny to that smug, evil sh$thead who seems to get worse by the hour.

I took an Uber last night and spoke at length with the driver who informed me that Uber? Tesla? incentivizes drivers to BUY a Tesla and use it to drive Uber. I'm confused and didn't want to further engage in conversation with the driver but this sounded like a recipe for absolute disaster.

 

[Arcadian]

My solar system is self sustaining, meaning I pay the basic connect fee to FPL (considering how much they've gone up, fantastic!) Still, I can't imagine yet having an EV. My house is set up for one, I have a generator port which would be fine to change into a charging port easy enough. And I've had a hybrid which was great, and down here they work pretty well. But an EV? thats a bit scary because even in my city, there's no real charging infrastructure. People certainly have them of course. More than a few Teslas and ID.4's here. I'm just not ready to commit.

 

[Rockdiamond]

I'm confused and didn't want to further engage in conversation with the driver but this sounded like a recipe for absolute disaster.

I guess I have a hard time understanding the skepticism. It seems to make perfect sense to me considering air pollution in crowded cities. And it seems like it’d be practical.
But it’s clear that many people are of the mindset that electric cars won’t work