Emerald Cut Advice - EM1, you around?

[Lorelei]

Date: 2/3/2009 12:29:03 PM
Author: Rockdiamond

Date: 2/3/2009 12:16:31 PM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 2/3/2009 12:10:11 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Excellent post Bgray!
I agree- there are many stunning stones with Good polish and symmetry.
IN terms of clarity, there's no question some people prefer a VS or VVS stone, it's an individual taste issue. But if you are not among those who has to have VS, and you are working with someone who can actually look at the stones- or you can see them yourself, I'd also suggest broadening the search to include both SI1 and SI2.
There are many eye clean stones in these grades.

I also agree that trying to buy such a stone blind ( with no photos) seems risky.

Interesting, it seems to be rarely the case that posters have found totally eyeclean SI step cuts, particularly in the larger sizes, hence the usual advice to stick to VS and above. Do you have a good percentage which are totally eyeclean David?

Yes- but it's important to remember that we buy the diamonds in person.

Let's look at the logistics of how stones come to market: Cutters cut the diamonds, and need to sell their stones ASAP. The first step is seeing if there's a dealer willing to purchase. Once a dealer purchases the diamond, the cutter is off the hook, and can go on the the next stone.
If that plan fails, the stone can end up on one of the 'lists'.
There are dealers who stock diamonds, and put them on lists, but more common is the BN model- where the internet seller has the list of stones, but don't buy one till someone buys it off the site., This model means that there is a possibility that stones on lists such as BN are going to be the ones rejected by dealers.
So- if a dealer is looking at two diamonds- a VVS1 and an SI2- the SI2 might be eye clean- and half the price of the VVS- makes it a really good stone for a store, or dealer to put in stock.
Which is also a personal preference of mine.
If we have a given budget to purchase stones for our stock, I'd prefer to buy 5 eye clean SI diamonds versus 2 or 3 VVS or VS stones.

This can easily translate to the consumer who might have the choice of buying a 1.50 VS, or a 2.00 SI.

The advice frequently given here is good- because if you have to buy blind, clearly it's safer to go VS- but I'd also say that buying blind is unwise.....

Do you mean step cuts such as EC's with these eyeclean SI clarities David? I was always under the impression that eyeclean SI EC's etc are very hard to find and as such that buyers looking for an EC are better off sticking to VS and above in the majority of cases, as finding a completely eyeclean SI EC is extremely difficult.

If that isn't the case then that would be great to know in order to make sure the current advice we are giving the new posters is accurate when they are looking for step cuts. I know eyeclean SI come up occasionally with some of the vendors but again it seems to be rare, do you see many EC's that are completely eyeclean at close scrutiny from all angles?

 

[bgray]

eyeclean is not the same to everyone.......i -like chrono-am super duper picky. it depends on the person and their tolerance for the various factors. i know someone with a mammoth stone --black spots everywhere.............she doesnt care. i would rather have nothing

 

[strmrdr]

I have been watching this thread to see where it went.
Time to weigh in.

SI Step cuts: I have seen face up eyeclean ones but every one with a little tilt the inclusions were visible.
Are tilt eyeclean si''s out there sure there are but far fewer than face up eyeclean which are already rare.
Hunting them online is a losing game as you will spend a fortune calling in stones and rejecting them.
The only practical exception is if the vendor already has it in stock and you agree on a definition of eyeclean and it passes and comes with a 100% refund guarantee.

sym/polish: again the odds when your hunting are better staying vg/vg and above.
If a vendor has a g/g in stock and can verify that there no ill effects from it then go for it.

Yes there are 2 sets of rules.
1 for having stones called in and one set for in stock stones and when buying in person.

 

[Rockdiamond]

First of all, I''d like to thank you Lorelei for keeping an open mind and engaging in discussion!
There is not question that a stone which is eye clean to some will not be eye clean to others.
To find our where a person sits, I like to discuss specific aspects of a person''s desires if they are shopping.
For example- many a 45 year old can NOT see things they might have seen them they were 25- AND many times a 45 year old is willing to sacrifice things to get a larger stone.

There are SI stones which are have a spot which is clearly visible- and others where it''s really hard to find- even with a loupe.
A third group would be stones that imperfections that may be visible from a certain angle- or to the sharpest eyes person.

Chrono- for sure you probably fit into the sharpest eyed group- but I''d also suggest that it''s possible that the stores you shopped either had no interest in selling SI stones , or maybe they just had none of the type I''m fond of.
I would say that using such experience to make broad generalizations might not be accurate.

 

[Rockdiamond]

style="WIDTH: 102.78%; HEIGHT: 269px">Date: 2/3/2009 12:57:38 PM
Author: strmrdr
I have been watching this thread to see where it went.
Time to weigh in.

SI Step cuts: I have seen face up eyeclean ones but every one with a little tilt the inclusions were visible.
Are tilt eyeclean si''s out there sure there are but far fewer than face up eyeclean which are already rare.
Hunting them online is a losing game as you will spend a fortune calling in stones and rejecting them.
The only practical exception is if the vendor already has it in stock and you agree on a definition of eyeclean and it passes and comes with a 100% refund guarantee.

sym/polish: again the odds when your hunting are better staying vg/vg and above.
If a vendor has a g/g in stock and can verify that there no ill effects from it then go for it.

Yes there are 2 sets of rules.
1 for having stones called in and one set for in stock stones and when buying in person.

We agree Strom- if a person is looking at acutal stones- or a vendor has the stone and can be relied upon, it''s a totally different story than trying to buy a stone blind off a list. Trying to buy one off a list with no photos makes little sense to me- but if you had to do that, then surely go for EX/EX VVS if possible.

My experience is different than yours- I have seen many an eye clean SI emerald cut- even if it was tilted.
This could again be explained by taking into account where we each look at stones- and under what circumstances.

Of course economic realities often come into play- and people generally want to get the most for their money.
By negating the posibility of purchasing SI emerald cuts, it does not allow for eye clean emerald cuts that do exist- or for people who might not be able to see an imperfetcton that might bother someone else.

 

[chrono]

Even buying off the list, I would not choose a EX/EX VVS route. It''s totally unneccesary. A VG/VG VS2 stone is fine. Of course, pictures are still required.

 

[strmrdr]

David,
I just realized your not familiar with how it often works with them around here.
When I talk of calling stones in I am talking about having a vendor call them in for photos and scans.
When dealing with a vendor with connections they can call and get a pre-screening but it is never a sure thing until they have it in hand and get the information for the customer.
Some vendors charge from the first stone for this service and some will call in a couple stones for free.
At $50-$75 a pop calling in stones that there is a good chance will not pass inspection is not a wise investment.

Using this system vg/vg vs2 works well as a base.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Great point Storm- if one is only considering stones off a list, and it''s going to cost $50 just to find out if the dealer thinks it''s eye clean, then why take a chance?

But there are also internet dealers that have stones in stock, or stores that have inventory.

 

[emeraldlover1]

Woah...I go away for a few hours and look what happens. We seem to keep having the same discussion in every thread about EC''s. Is it possible that we can agree what we all have different things that we look for when considering these stones? Bgray and RockDiamond would be open to considering SI1s and G/G stones and that is fine. Lets take a look at what the OP is asking for opinions on. We all agree that pictures are needed to see if the facet patterns are acceptable and looks good to the eye. Well, the OP was asking for stones on BN. We have to realize that not every person who asks for advice here is going to go to a vendor that provides pictures. That being said, if it were me then I would focus on the stats that I would not go below. I would never buy a g/g SI1 stone sight unseen. I also wouldn''t buy a g/g VS1 sight unseen.

If I were going to buy a stone online that had pictures maybe my view would change. However, the OP posted what they were looking for so I looked up a few stones in that price range. There is no doubt that there are probably eye clean SI1''s and amazing g/g stones out there. If you can find one for the OP then post it here so we can all help her/him find one. I think the reason that we keep having this conversation is that the people that suggest not going below an SI1 and vg/vg and above is that it is less of a risk. I guess what I am saying is that if you feel there are other stones out there that the OP should consider why not help them out. Otherwise we can just go round and round discussing why each of us feels the way we do and why.

PS...I''ve been visiting PS for almost 3 years and I''ve seen one eye clean SI1 pop up here. Unless I''ve missed some.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Very good points EM1!

Not to beat a dead horse, but when a poster asks a question- for them it''s a new conversation- it could easily be said that the same advice is given hundreds of times. Hopefully adding an alternative viewpoint enriches the conversation.

It seems a common piece of advice - given by members right here on this thread- that buying without a photo is risky. I agree.
If the OP wants to purchase from BN regardless, at least they''ve gotten some alternative viewpoints.
I also agreed that IF one was going to buy without looking at photos, sure, stay in the VS range- but that eliminates a lot of good stones that are more affordable.
Budget is crucial to many shoppers.

As a vendor I am not allowed to post photos...forum rules

As I explained before, there are reasons to explain why more non eye clean SI''s are on the lists, and eye clean ones in the hands of sellers that actually own them.
Since many people who come here to PS are purchasing off the list, that would have an impact on the average look of stones shown here in the SI range. Which could in turn affect the average stone seen here on PS.
The result is that IMO it''s really not accurate to make broad generalizations based solely on the stones we''ve seen on PS.


Of course opinions are different- my feeling is that no one should be told that it''s "wrong" to want a VS, or an I2-

 

[emeraldlover1]

Of course its not wrong. We all like different things. I think the reality is that when people come here looking for advice it would be wrong to tell them that SI1''s fall in the safe zone without viewing in person. That doesn''t mean they don''t exist. Its not wrong to own or like them at all.

 

[emeraldlover1]

Date: 2/3/2009 4:09:44 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Very good points EM1!

Not to beat a dead horse, but when a poster asks a question- for them it''s a new conversation- it could easily be said that the same advice is given hundreds of times. Hopefully adding an alternative viewpoint enriches the conversation.

It seems a common piece of advice - given by members right here on this thread- that buying without a photo is risky. I agree.
If the OP wants to purchase from BN regardless, at least they''ve gotten some alternative viewpoints.
I also agreed that IF one was going to buy without looking at photos, sure, stay in the VS range- but that eliminates a lot of good stones that are more affordable.
Budget is crucial to many shoppers.

As a vendor I am not allowed to post photos...forum rules

As I explained before, there are reasons to explain why more non eye clean SI''s are on the lists, and eye clean ones in the hands of sellers that actually own them.
Since many people who come here to PS are purchasing off the list, that would have an impact on the average look of stones shown here in the SI range. Which could in turn affect the average stone seen here on PS.
The result is that IMO it''s really not accurate to make broad generalizations based solely on the stones we''ve seen on PS.


Of course opinions are different- my feeling is that no one should be told that it''s ''wrong'' to want a VS, or an I2-

This is exactly the reason I would stay above an SI1 and G/G. Most posters that come to ps are asking questions about virtual stones. My generalizations are made by what I have seen in person and the virtual world. We are talking about risk. Bottom line I personally wouldn''t go that low looking at stones online. Like I said before, that doesn''t mean they don''t exist.

 

[Rockdiamond]

So true-
EM1- I don''t think you were specifically requested for nuthin''

I should have also mentioned that I''m sure that the advice you''re giving is very well advised based on this site.

In a sense, I live in a "different diamond world"- and hopefully the alternative viewpoint can expand the conversation.

 

[emeraldlover1]

Date: 2/3/2009 4:23:00 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
So true-
EM1- I don''t think you were specifically requested for nuthin''

I should have also mentioned that I''m sure that the advice you''re giving is very well advised based on this site.

In a sense, I live in a ''different diamond world''- and hopefully the alternative viewpoint can expand the conversation.

Totally and I think you''ve made some great points. Hopefully it will expalin to posters how important it is to view stones in person. I think the thing is that in person you have more options assuming you have a vendor getting great stones.

I think where it gets confusing is that often in these posts we are trying to discuss two different things. The posters are usually asking about online stones and where the "safe zones" are and we start discussing the global perspective of EC''s. Unfortunatley sometimes virtual inventories are more of a vacum. This leads to a different set of requirements and judgements respecitivley.

 

[Gypsy]

Em I love that first EC from JA you posted. I think actually that JA has a NY office or something. I know they have two offices, and I think one is the DC area??? And the other in NYC.

But I totally recommend Mark at ERD or GOG too. I just really like that diamond EM posted.

 

[emeraldlover1]

The price on that one looks real good too!

 

[Gypsy]

Totally agree. Nice diamond, good price. I'd put on hold ask for a crown height, and an IS and post them (see what folks think), and if your in NYC and want to see it in person, I'd call them for an appointment since I just found this on their site: "We welcome visitors to our New York office. Office visits are by appointment only. Please contact our Customer Service center to
schedule an appointment."