Engagement Diamond Selection - Opinions requested - 62 table

[DejaWiz]

The only color I have on online wholesale markups is from Ritani which supposedly discloses it. Take this diamond for example:

1.50 Carat Round Diamond GIA 6224734346 | Ritani

1.5 Carat Round Earth Diamond ID Cut F Color VS1 Clarity with diamond report number GIA #6224734346

www.ritani.com

1.5ct, F, VS1 for 13.6k. They claim they bought it for 12.77k. They even provided a hearts picture (no aset or arrows shown though). Proportions look fine too with a slight lean towards fire with the 35.5/40.6 angles combo.

That's not a bad deal and looks good...the 40.6/35.5/57 combo works well together with the 45% stars and 80% lowers. Nice find!

Loupe360

loupe360.com

 

[lulu_ma]

Oh this is useful...

Here is an analysis of the initial stone you posted.

Fair Price
$13,093
Cut Score
5.9 / 10
Visual Carat
1.59 Ct.

Price and quality scores for GIA Number 1443524387

View the fair price estimate, Cut Score® and price history for GIA Certified Diamond 1443524387. Everything you need to know to buy this diamond.

www.stonealgo.com

Stonealgo loves the Ritani one. Maybe put that on hold!

 

[sledge]

So ignoring all the alarms going off inside my head, I simply searched a few sites for 1.50 G/VS1 stones with GIA XXX reports. I ignored all the proportions and didn't even bother looking at them as I can tell by looking at the stone for most them.

Point blank....I am **NOT** recommending these stones but using purely as an example of price.

Low price = $11,808 x 1.0885 = $12,853
High price = $13,000 x 1.0885 = $14,151

As already eluded to, this doesn't feel like a "deal" to me at all. Just a jeweler selling a stone for normal market value. The price is low because the cut quality isn't great.

All Diamonds - Magnified in 360° HD | JamesAllen.com

James Allen offers a wide selection of GIA, IGI and AGS certified conflict-free loose diamonds, all viewable in 360° HD. Take the guesswork out of buying a diamond.

www.jamesallen.com

1.50 Carat Round Natural Diamond | Rare Carat®

1.50 Carat Round Natural Diamond | Rare Carat®

www.rarecarat.com

Diamond Search Results | Real-time Information on 1,000,000+ Diamonds | PriceScope

PriceScope's Diamond Search is the best place to find the best diamond prices. Search and compare over a million natural, lab and fancy color diamonds.

www.pricescope.com

 

[NY_Resonant]

So ignoring all the alarms going off inside my head, I simply searched a few sites for 1.50 G/VS1 stones with GIA XXX reports. I ignored all the proportions and didn't even bother looking at them as I can tell by looking at the stone for most them.

Point blank....I am **NOT** recommending these stones but using purely as an example of price.

Low price = $11,808 x 1.0885 = $12,853
High price = $13,000 x 1.0885 = $14,151

As already eluded to, this doesn't feel like a "deal" to me at all. Just a jeweler selling a stone for normal market value. The price is low because the cut quality isn't great.

All Diamonds - Magnified in 360° HD | JamesAllen.com

James Allen offers a wide selection of GIA, IGI and AGS certified conflict-free loose diamonds, all viewable in 360° HD. Take the guesswork out of buying a diamond.

www.jamesallen.com

1.50 Carat Round Natural Diamond | Rare Carat®

1.50 Carat Round Natural Diamond | Rare Carat®

www.rarecarat.com

Diamond Search Results | Real-time Information on 1,000,000+ Diamonds | PriceScope

PriceScope's Diamond Search is the best place to find the best diamond prices. Search and compare over a million natural, lab and fancy color diamonds.

www.pricescope.com

Hi Sledge,

To be fair, almost all of those have a Medium for Florencence. From my understanding that causes a fairly large discount for G colored stones?

Needless to say, I think it is fair to say the price my friend offered is a good one but nothing crazy amazing?

 

[MissGotRocks]

The price really is secondary to the cut of the diamond he is offering you. There really are no deals in the diamond world and again, you get what you pay for.

 

[lulu_ma]

The fair market price of the stone that your friend offered you is $13k.

The cut score is 5.9/10.

No one here is going to encourage you to buy that stone.

 

[ItsMainelyYou]

Hi Sledge,

To be fair, almost all of those have a Medium for Florencence. From my understanding that causes a fairly large discount for G colored stones?

Needless to say, I think it is fair to say the price my friend offered is a good one but nothing crazy amazing?

We see this same scenario more often than you know.
Nothing to write home about.
I understand this is your friend, but everyone is gently telling you something you should step back and heed. This is a meh deal on a meh rock and you'll regret it the moment you see either a truly ideal proportioned, or one of the branded ACA, or Decagon etc. in the wild. And you inevitably will.

Something you have to understand about PS, people own serious diamonds here, they are obsessed with them. For fun. Everyday. They look at literally thousands over time.
People have collections, some museum worthy. They just don't toot their own horns as it's in poor taste. They debate with scientific precision.

PS is a consumer forum specifically tailored to helping other people get the best rock possible and most came here because what you're possibly about to do has happened to many of them at some point. They stayed, and learned, and are now paying it forward where they can.
They don't want this to happen to you, or anyone else.
It's free wisdom and usually personal vetting and shopping with no strings.
Rare.

Even better, PS will help you just because we like to. It brings us joy to see a great outcome. The only thing we ever ask for is pictures on the hand so we can mildly gloat, gush at the pretty pictures and share in your joy as another job well done.
Seriously, that's it.

 

[lulu_ma]

We see this same scenario more often than you know.
Nothing to write home about.
I understand this is your friend, but everyone is gently telling you something you should step back and heed. This is a meh deal on a meh rock and you'll regret it the moment you see either a truly ideal proportioned, or one of the branded ACA, or Decagon etc. in the wild. And you inevitably will.

Something you have to understand about PS, people own serious diamonds here, they are obsessed with them. For fun. Everyday. They look at literally thousands over time.
People have collections, some museum worthy. They just don't toot their own horns as it's in poor taste. They debate with scientific precision.

PS is a consumer forum specifically tailored to helping other people get the best rock possible and most came here because what you're possibly about to do has happened to many of them at some point. They stayed, and learned, and are now paying it forward where they can.
They don't want this to happen to you, or anyone else.
It's free wisdom and usually personal vetting and shopping with no strings.
Rare.

Even better, PS will help you just because we like to. It brings us joy to see a great outcome. The only thing we ever ask for is pictures on the hand so we can mildly gloat, gush at the pretty pictures and share in your joy as another job well done.
Seriously, that's it.

Perfectly put @ItsMainelyYou !

 

[lovedogs]

We see this same scenario more often than you know.
Nothing to write home about.
I understand this is your friend, but everyone is gently telling you something you should step back and heed. This is a meh deal on a meh rock and you'll regret it the moment you see either a truly ideal proportioned, or one of the branded ACA, or Decagon etc. in the wild. And you inevitably will.

Something you have to understand about PS, people own serious diamonds here, they are obsessed with them. For fun. Everyday. They look at literally thousands over time.
People have collections, some museum worthy. They just don't toot their own horns as it's in poor taste. They debate with scientific precision.

PS is a consumer forum specifically tailored to helping other people get the best rock possible and most came here because what you're possibly about to do has happened to many of them at some point. They stayed, and learned, and are now paying it forward where they can.
They don't want this to happen to you, or anyone else.
It's free wisdom and usually personal vetting and shopping with no strings.
Rare.

Even better, PS will help you just because we like to. It brings us joy to see a great outcome. The only thing we ever ask for is pictures on the hand so we can mildly gloat, gush at the pretty pictures and share in your joy as another job well done.
Seriously, that's it.

Agreed 1000000%

 

[sledge]

Hi Sledge,

To be fair, almost all of those have a Medium for Florencence. From my understanding that causes a fairly large discount for G colored stones?

Needless to say, I think it is fair to say the price my friend offered is a good one but nothing crazy amazing?

If you eliminate the stones with medium+ flour then it knocks out quite a few options but you still have a few between $12,500 and $12,800. With tax, that puts you at $14k out the door.

So stones of similar caliber are going for close to the $13k mark which is what @lulu_ma also found on the other site.

I do believe it's possible your friend is offering a lower price than his other customers. However, his pricing strategy is nothing any of us can control. What I do know is you can go elsewhere and buy a near identical diamond for the same dollars, so IMO this isn't a "deal". You are simply paying a lower price because it's a lower quality diamond.

Since you are in NYC, have you talked to Yeukitel @ ID Jewelry? He is a well respected vendor here that offers some great pricing, understands the importance of ideal cut quality and can provide detailed Sarine reports, idealscope, ASET and H&A images on stones you are interested in purchasing.

Ultimately, what and where you buy is your call. I feel like myself and others have done our best to educate and make you fully aware of the situation at hand. What you do with that information is on you. If you want to move forward with selecting a different stone, then cool, we are glad to help. If you want to stay put, that's cool too. But you do have options should you choose to exercise them.

Good luck on whatever you choose.

 

[NY_Resonant]

If you eliminate the stones with medium+ flour then it knocks out quite a few options but you still have a few between $12,500 and $12,800. With tax, that puts you at $14k out the door.

So stones of similar caliber are going for close to the $13k mark which is what @lulu_ma also found on the other site.

I do believe it's possible your friend is offering a lower price than his other customers. However, his pricing strategy is nothing any of us can control. What I do know is you can go elsewhere and buy a near identical diamond for the same dollars, so IMO this isn't a "deal". You are simply paying a lower price because it's a lower quality diamond.

Since you are in NYC, have you talked to Yeukitel @ ID Jewelry? He is a well respected vendor here that offers some great pricing, understands the importance of ideal cut quality and can provide detailed Sarine reports, idealscope, ASET and H&A images on stones you are interested in purchasing.

Ultimately, what and where you buy is your call. I feel like myself and others have done our best to educate and make you fully aware of the situation at hand. What you do with that information is on you. If you want to move forward with selecting a different stone, then cool, we are glad to help. If you want to stay put, that's cool too. But you do have options should you choose to exercise them.

Good luck on whatever you choose.

Hi Sledge,

I definitely appreciate all the information! I have not spoken to Yeukitel yet but since I do value the ability to see the stone in person first I think I’ll do that some time next week.

i’ve also reached out to Jann Paul for information on his Decagon Series, I was hugely attracted to that stone since I first saw the videos and people’s comments on it have been very positive.

I’m somewhat flexible with my budget but of course am still looking for the best deal possible between price, size, and quality. One of my fears, and this is why seeing it in person has value to me… is that at some point we start approaching diminishing returns on real-life eye improvement per dollars spent.

Tools like HCA with grades like Excellent, AGS ideal to excellent light scores… none of those use proper numeric metrics indicating the actual physical difference. Is it a 5% difference per grade? A 10%? 20%? I have no idea… or even a range within the AGS000 category itself!

You’d think a Ray tracing method like AGS could also disclose a specific measured number for brilliance, fire, sparkle, etc on each diamond…and THEN their overall grade summary?

 

[Diamond Girl 21]

Hi Sledge,

I definitely appreciate all the information! I have not spoken to Yeukitel yet but since I do value the ability to see the stone in person first I think I’ll do that some time next week.

i’ve also reached out to Jann Paul for information on his Decagon Series, I was hugely attracted to that stone since I first saw the videos and people’s comments on it have been very positive.

I’m somewhat flexible with my budget but of course am still looking for the best deal possible between price, size, and quality. One of my fears, and this is why seeing it in person has value to me… is that at some point we start approaching diminishing returns on real-life eye improvement per dollars spent.

Tools like HCA with grades like Excellent, AGS ideal to excellent light scores… none of those use proper numeric metrics indicating the actual physical difference. Is it a 5% difference per grade? A 10%? 20%? I have no idea… or even a range within the AGS000 category itself!

You’d think a Ray tracing method like AGS could also disclose a specific measured number for brilliance, fire, sparkle, etc on each diamond…and THEN their overall grade summary?

You make very good points, and that's why many of us choose to consult with jewelers/manufacturers/companies we know are trustworthy, and highly regarded. Others are incredible at choosing their own diamonds based on the information provided. What we have in common, is the desire to choose an amazing diamond within a specific budget that meet our particular preferences. Many also love to help others do the same. Please understand, I'm not saying your jeweler isn't honest, but based on the information you provided, the diamond will not be a good performer. I understand your point about paying a premium for something you can't see. That's why everyone is encouraging you to go see, and compare different cuts of diamonds. While you're at it, see what your color and clarity tolerance is as well. Trust me when I say this, most women will stare lovingly at their diamonds, in all kinds of lighting environments, all kinds of situations, and some will even compare their diamond to their friends' diamonds. You don't want her to feel disappointed.

 

[NY_Resonant]

You make very good points, and that's why many of us choose to consult with jewelers/manufacturers/companies we know are trustworthy, and highly regarded. Others are incredible at choosing their own diamonds based on the information provided. What we have in common, is the desire to choose an amazing diamond within a specific budget that meet our particular preferences. Many also love to help others do the same. Please understand, I'm not saying your jeweler isn't honest, but based on the information you provided, the diamond will not be a good performer. I understand your point about paying a premium for something you can't see. That's why everyone is encouraging you to go see, and compare different cuts of diamonds. While you're at it, see what your color and clarity tolerance is as well. Trust me when I say this, most women will stare lovingly at their diamonds, in all kinds of lighting environments, all kinds of situations, and some will even compare their diamond to their friends' diamonds. You don't want her to feel disappointed.

I definitely hear you about the clarity and color tolerances! I originally thought I could go for an H SI choice, many people online and on this forum were perfectly happy with an H…After seeing a number of H’s in person, I realized that the slight warmth is quite detectable to my naked eye when not looking straight down on the diamond. Maybe I’m color sensitive and my partner would never notice —- but that was not a risk I wanted to take. Similar to the clarity SI, I decided to err to the clean VS1 side of caution versus making a mistake by getting a VS2 or SI that may be eye clean at 12 inches but not at 5. I imagine the stone will get looked at closely at some point… That’s not to say there aren’t totally clean VS2 or SI of course.

No man wants his fiancé to become unhappy about her diamond, after all.

 

[0515vision]

@NY_Resonant, you've been inundated with information on all sides - in-person and online, and I imagine it's a lot to handle. Add the financial and emotional magnitude of the purchase, and you're a trooper for staying on this thread.

After seeing a number of H’s in person, I realized that the slight warmth is quite detectable to my naked eye when not looking straight down on the diamond.

True color-sensitive ppl see color when looking straight down on the diamond, facets and light returned be damned.

Nearly everyone can see body color from the side. But in a store, they deliberately want to convince customers that they are "color sensitive" so that the untrained eye will buy up in color. A "G" on the certificate is easy to read and can mask long-term subpar optics. This is the difference between buying the paper and buying the actual stone.

@DejaWiz showed you well-cut diamonds in the I-K range which face up whiter than poor-performance dim G-H stones exactly for this reason. Facets distort color perception. So before you reject an H stone (or whatever you read as "too low"), take into account what it will look like face-up as compared to hundreds of other diamonds over decades to come.

*Again, good luck! A proposal under the cherry blossoms in Japan sounds magical and romantic! We just want to help you find a diamond full of magic and romance. From far and wide, we're rooting for you.*

 

[sledge]

Hi Sledge,

I definitely appreciate all the information! I have not spoken to Yeukitel yet but since I do value the ability to see the stone in person first I think I’ll do that some time next week.

i’ve also reached out to Jann Paul for information on his Decagon Series, I was hugely attracted to that stone since I first saw the videos and people’s comments on it have been very positive.

I’m somewhat flexible with my budget but of course am still looking for the best deal possible between price, size, and quality. One of my fears, and this is why seeing it in person has value to me… is that at some point we start approaching diminishing returns on real-life eye improvement per dollars spent.

Tools like HCA with grades like Excellent, AGS ideal to excellent light scores… none of those use proper numeric metrics indicating the actual physical difference. Is it a 5% difference per grade? A 10%? 20%? I have no idea… or even a range within the AGS000 category itself!

You’d think a Ray tracing method like AGS could also disclose a specific measured number for brilliance, fire, sparkle, etc on each diamond…and THEN their overall grade summary?

Nothing wrong with wanting to see the stone in-person before purchasing. That is actually highly encouraged. Vendors like WF, BGD, JP, etc are top tier vendors with excellent return policies and also understand this. For example, I bought my wife's stone from BGD who is located near Houston. I had a custom setting designed in Los Angeles. BGD offered to ship the stone to me loose (on their dime) so I could inspect and then return to them (again, on their dime) for either a refund, replacement or to forward to DK in LA when the time was right. In the interim, they held secured in their vault until it was time to ship the stone to DK. WF has countless stories of doing the same. And also these places have store fronts as well, they aren't just "internet vendors" like many. For instance, I have stood in WF's lobby and saw a plethora of gorgeous ACA's with my own eyeballs! Both BGD and WF are located in the Houston, TX area so if you prefer to fly in and visit both that is also doable. I could go on. My point is you have options and aren't limited to NYC but it does require you to be open-minded to the idea.

In regards to the HCA tool, it does an excellent job of trying to make a reasonable prediction on how the stone will perform based on the data provided on the lab report. This last part is important. As I mentioned in an earlier response, what we see on GIA reports are averaged & rounded data from a much larger set of actual values.

So yes, the HCA is limited in that capacity, but it's also equally important to view it's value properly. It is an elimination tool, not a "precise, it's going to be the best diamond ever" tool. In that regards it's a very powerful tool because it allows buyers to narrow the large sea of diamond possibilities down to a smaller number that at least has promise or hope of being a decent performer. But to know for sure, further evaluation is required. This is where advanced images come into play.

You also mentioned AGS reports and 3D ray tracing. IMO and most here, we believe AGS reports are far superior to GIA. First off, they average the actuals and report them but don't do the funky rounding GIA does so you get a more precise read. Most importantly, the 3D ray tracing allows them to provide a computer generated ASET on the AGS report. This is truly powerful. While it doesn't give a numerical value concerning light performance, it gives a graphical interpretation. Also, they use this data to asses the 000 rating which again is superior to the GIA XXX rating.

Point blank, if you are shopping stones and don't want a super ideal, then an AGS000 would be my second choice as it has the highest probability of being a strong performer. Coincidentally, most super ideals also have AGS lab reports and are also 000 stones.

Finally advanced images really helps us nail down the performance of a stone. Both an idealscope and ASET provide information about light return. The idealscope uses a more simplistic approach using red only. The ASET expands on that and uses different colors to show optimal light return (red), reduced light return (green), obstruction (blue) and leakage (black/white, depending on the background). Hearts and arrows (H&A) images help us assess the symmetry of the stone. Most vendors don't provide this full array of data and images. Most that do are super ideal vendors. But for the local shopper, you can buy your own scopes and take with you to help evaluate all these metrics in-person.

In closing this response I feel it necessary to jump back to AGS for a quick moment. If you aren't aware, you should know that AGS no longer issues lab reports effective 12/2022 so any stones with AGS reports are a bit of a rarity. However, GIA now has an option to include the AGS performance metrics if the vendor pays for the extra "addendum" to the standard report. Below is an example of such a stone.

Diamond | 1.84 ct H VS2 A CUT ABOVE® Hearts and Arrows Super Ideal Round Cut Loose Diamond GIA Certified | 4562775

This Whiteflash A CUT ABOVE® super ideal cut hearts and arrows 1.84 carat H color VS2 clarity loose diamond is graded by the Gemological Institute of America (GIA). | 4562775

www.whiteflash.com

 

[Diamond Girl 21]

@NY_Resonant, you've been inundated with information on all sides - in-person and online, and I imagine it's a lot to handle. Add the financial and emotional magnitude of the purchase, and you're a trooper for staying on this thread.



True color-sensitive ppl see color when looking straight down on the diamond, facets and light returned be damned.

Nearly everyone can see body color from the side. But in a store, they deliberately want to convince customers that they are "color sensitive" so that the untrained eye will buy up in color. A "G" on the certificate is easy to read and can mask long-term subpar optics. This is the difference between buying the paper and buying the actual stone.

@DejaWiz showed you well-cut diamonds in the I-K range which face up whiter than poor-performance dim G-H stones exactly for this reason. Facets distort color perception. So before you reject an H stone (or whatever you read as "too low"), take into account what it will look like face-up as compared to hundreds of other diamonds over decades to come.

*Again, good luck! A proposal under the cherry blossoms in Japan sounds magical and romantic! We just want to help you find a diamond full of magic and romance. From far and wide, we're rooting for you.*

This is great info. I agree that if you compare a super ideal lower color to a poorly cut higher color, the super ideal would win. As someone who is color sensitive though, I would encourage OP to stick with a colorless diamond, as long as he gets the best cut possible.

 

[sledge]

@NY_Resonant I was just checking up on you to see if you met with Yeukitel, or where exactly you stand on the original diamond you inquired about.

In regards to color, here's some quick takeaways:

1. Women normally see color better than men. Not always, but usually.

2. Color sensitivity is the ABILITY to see color.

3. Color tolerance is the level seeing the color bothers you.

4. It's possible to be color sensitive, but also color tolerant. The trick is finding that equilibrium between what's acceptable and what's not.

5. Any guy buying a stone for their woman should know it's all about them. It doesn't matter if you like D, H or K. What matters is what SHE likes. Always buy what she likes as she's the one that has to look at it forever -- well, "forever" until DSS sets in and you upgrade her.

6. A really good way to judge her sensitivity is to sit down with stones as close to identical as possible -- meaning same cut quality, proportions, same size, same lab (GIA, AGS, etc) reports. Seriously as much of a mirror as possible, except the color. Have the jeweler randomly place the stones and start eliminating them until no differences can be seen. If that happens at H or D or whatever, that tells you what she can perceive at this stage in life.

7. If your girl can't identify color past J, then it's silly to buy a F+ unless you're bothered by it. Just know at that point, it's about you and not her. See rule #5.

8. Well cut stones, like super ideals, do face up whiter because of edge to edge light return. However, the BODY of the stone still shows the tint. This is also how color is graded at labs -- through the body/pavilion.

9. Some common tricks to mask color and stretch your dollars is set the stone lower so you don't see as much of the pavilion. Use a setting that covers the majority of the pavilion. Use a yellow gold setting.

Diamond Color: Grading Chart and Buying Guide | Whiteflash

A diamond’s color impacts both its appearance and its value. Read this guide to understand more about diamond color before marking your purchase.

www.whiteflash.com