Fairy Tales and LIW Syndrome

[LaraOnline]

Hi Guys
My three year old darling girl has just discovered fairy tales. Now, she talks of nothing but her ''Prince'', and True Love. Such is her enthusiasm, I''m thinking of cutting back on fairy tales.

I really loved the romance of fairy tales too, but I''m thinking that in the post-pill modern world, where ''courtship'' lasts until middle age

, fairy tales can put little girls at a profound disadvantage.

While I am happily married now, my late twenties were honestly something a nightmare. (not to put a too enthusiastic spin on it or anything!!)

Perhaps, with my ''bookish'' background, I had a misplaced belief in fairy tales?
Are fairy tales outdated?

Do women need more realistic ''programming'' when it comes to love and marriage these days? After all, little boys just are not that enthusiastic about fairy tales!

I''d love to know other peoples thoughts on this. Maybe fairytales with a little ''discussion'' thrown in afterwards? I''m thinking : ''but of course, lots of boys aren''t really princes...'' or ''but these are just funny stories, real life is often a lot more practical...'' ?

 

[SarahLovesJS]

Hmm. Well, there''s a lot of discussion about this I believe among psychologists. I think they try to attribute the high divorce rate to fairy tales. I believe it''s called "Cinderella syndrome" or something like that. Honestly, I don''t know if you can keep her away from fairy tales. They are everywhere in our society. I grew up on fairy tales, but by the time I was a teenager I was very aware that romance was not ACTUALLY about fairy tales. There isn''t really a "prince charming." So, I think she''ll be fine personally. I watched the disney movies and still do, but just by observing my parents and other people around I noticed that life is not about the fairy tales. Love is about things like friendship and liking each other so much you want to see each other every day for the rest of your life. Not necessarily about "magic." Hope that helps some.

 

[Independent Gal]

Get your little girl a copy of Robert Munch''s "The Paper Bag Princess" ASAP!

http://www.amazon.com/Paper-Bag-Princess-Classic-Munsch/dp/0920236162/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1203997904&sr=8-1

 

[Smurfysmiles]

omg i totally loved the paper bag princess when i was a little girl!
i had almost forgotten about it

 

[LaraOnline]

Hmm, the ''Paper Bag Princess'' looks great, I''ve never heard of it. (perhaps cause I live in Australia)

Call me paranoid, but I also think that a lot of guys actually trade on girls'' naivity and /or misplaced trust ??
Girls embark on a relationship assuming that, if all goes well, the guy will propose. I mean, otherwise, he wouldn''t be looking, right? And he wouldn''t be so nice?
And then, three or four years later, she''s had the ''experience'', they''re living together and...well...

I know that there are so many disastrous women out there as well, but it seems soooo common to have a really great girl left dangling by a guy who, after having had all the benefits, decides his girl just isn''t developing ''her own life'' like she should. And why is she so hung up on him anyway?

Seems like us girls need to develop a new culture, one that is a little more street smart, and perhaps a little less trusting in the first place? (Is this the new celibacy?)

Also, perhaps mothers of boys need to read ''em more fairy tales! I have already made a pact with myself that I will not selfishly ''persuade'' my boy to hold off marriage. (He''s all of 18 months!!!)
If she''s good enough to have a relationship with, she''s probably good enough to marry? Gawd, I''m sooo old fashioned!

 

[peridot83]

Actually, I think boys suffer from fairytale syndrome as much as girls...perhaps even more so in this sense:

First: Boys don''t get their fairytales from Cinderella etc., but from magazines such as Maxim, tv shows such as entrourage, nip/tuck etc. These media emphasize the honeymoon phase of the relationship: when the couple is all over each other, there aren''t many responsibilities, and relatively few fights. These media also have a negative view on marriage/committed relationships (its a drag, women are whiny and complainy etc.) Media directed at males basically up-play the sex, downplay companionship/support etc.

Second, adult women still don''t want to date men who are younger than them. This creates a situation where men are most desirable to the widest spectrum from about age 25-35, whereas women appeal to the greatest spectrum of men from about 21-27. (i.e. women walk into a social event and there are less and less men who are older, whereas men more and more women are younger)

The consequences of this is that as a female, if you meet your partner when he''s 21, his options WIDEN as he gets older. Couple this with the obsession in male culture with sex and the honeymoon phases of relationship, and its no wonder men find it hard to commit when they''re younger.

 

[gwendolyn]

Not to be annoying, but I think it really depends on what you mean by 'fairy tales.' As a really little kid, my parents and I would read all kinds of stories, and I loved what are typically known as fairy tales, like Cinderella, where the good people are rewarded and the bad people are punished and the prince and princess live happily ever after. When I got a little older (say, 11 or 12), I got copies of the original fairy tales, and they almost never had happy endings and were sometimes quite gruesome (The Red Shoes, The Little Match Girl, The Little Mermaid, Hansel & Gretal). Looking back on it, it was a sort of rite of passage, to read the 'real' stories, instead of the candy-coated versions--just another one of those lessons when you learn that life isn't fair and the endings aren't always how you want them to be.

I personally was ready to handle those kinds of stories at 12, but at 5, I probably wouldn't have been. Some kids might, but I think it's sort of a similar issue to that of Santa Claus: you want to believe in magic when you're young, but as you get older, you want to figure things out more than just believe--at least, that's how I figured out about Santa. I investigated and found out the truth, and at the time it sucked because this pretty little world I'd imagined was shattered by reality, but I'd rather that have happened than to find myself turning 30 in 2 weeks with me still believing in magic spells and that all good people are happy and all bad people are eaten by dragons or whatever. That's not the real world, and if I'd stayed believing that the only way I'd be loved is if I threw some hair out a window and waited for a dude on horseback to show up, I'm pretty sure I'd be hideously disappointed in love for my entire life.

So, I guess it depends on what stories you're reading, what the context surrounding them is, and what lessons you learn from them. I also think there's a time and a place when the candified fairy tales are appropriate. If they're your only perspective on what relationships should be like, then you've got some serious problems! But if they're just part of a balanced upbringing, I think they can be a useful tool. Just depends on the spin you put on it.

 

[sandia_rose]

Date: 2/25/2008 11:55:39 PM
Author: peridot83
Actually, I think boys suffer from fairytale syndrome as much as girls...perhaps even more so in this sense:

First: Boys don't get their fairytales from Cinderella etc., but from magazines such as Maxim, tv shows such as entrourage, nip/tuck etc. These media emphasize the honeymoon phase of the relationship: when the couple is all over each other, there aren't many responsibilities, and relatively few fights. These media also have a negative view on marriage/committed relationships (its a drag, women are whiny and complainy etc.) Media directed at males basically up-play the sex, downplay companionship/support etc.

BRAVO for posting this

. I couldn't have said it better myself!

It gets harder for those of us who are not in our 20s anymore. I'm 39, and while I don't look like I did in my 20s, I can pass for 30 most days. I've taken care of myself, wear a size 6 and project a young attitude. I have an 8 year old son and can get away with wearing a bikini if I wanted to - I don't have cellulite or stretch marks. But again, no one is going to be fooled into thinking I am much younger than I am. And there are consequences to this. I have a good friend that I've posted about before. She's 36, still single and while she's not desperate, she's very much looking. And she's a catch! She's got a great job, owns her own home, is educated, funny, intellegent, drop-dead gorgeous and has a lot of her own interests (she's an artist and has traveled to some pretty exotic places by herself...just to check 'em out). The age range she is looking in for men is 30-40. She's open to younger men, but not men in their 20s. And she is frustrated, because all of the men she's dated and have been intererested in bypass her and go for younger girls. If things don't work out with my current BF, I don't know what I'll do. I'd like to settle down, too. But the men in the age range I am looking in (a bit older than what my friend prefers) - 35 - 50 - want younger women....and a lot of times, have been badly burned by bad marriages, so they don't want to settle down. In order for these men to settle down, they need to encounter perfection. They fully expect nothing less than a Maxim cover model. Nevermind that they can't see that "perfection" doesn't necessarily go for balding, overweight and older....unless money is part of the deal.

I hate to sound negative, I really do. But I feel the pressure to be young and perky and bimbo-ish....when I have already lived through that stage and have so much more to offer someone.....is relentless sometimes. I have a Marketing degree and have worked in advertising and promotion....and I will be the first to tell you that the media and all of the BS imagery that it shoves down our throats sucks.

I don't allow my son to watch certain Disney Channel programs because they give an unrealistic view of life and how to act/treat others. I can't change the men that are adults today, but I CAN do something to insure that the cycle isn't perpetrated and that my little guy grows up with a better attitude and viewpoint.

Bridget in Connecticut.

 

[gwendolyn]

I don't think it's entirely accurate to suggest that the male equivalent of fairy tales is the media's push of what's attractive, if that is what you were saying, peridot83 and Bridget. Both men and women compare themselves to movie stars and models, not just men, and it's more of a teen/adult influence than childhood influence (unless you were sexual verrrrry early).

I think it's an interesting (albeit slightly depressing) topic, and one that would probably be HUGE because lots of people feel quite strongly about it, but I personally think it's fairly tangential to the topic of fairy tales--as I understand the OP, anyway.

 

[gwendolyn]

ETA: Sorry, just re-read my last post and it sounds kinda testy. Didn''t mean to be rude or anything, so apologies if I came across that way.

 

[dragonfly411]

I strongly digress from the OP. Fairy tales have been around for hundreds of years and never caused problems. I honestly think that we delve a bit to deep into things in today''s society. Fairy tail syndrome could happen yes, but a child should be taught at a certain age that fairy tales are just that, fairy tales. Make it apparent that they will have a happy ending, but there are trials along the way. I loved fairy tales as a child, and I think it would be harsh to deny a child such wonderful things. Saying that they destroy marriages would be like saying imaginary friends make a child crazy.... I don''t think so.

Please let children be children, and don''t delve into things so deeply that they are forced to grow up far too soon.
And yes, Paper bag princess is amazing.

 

[lindsaylove]

I think it''s all about balance. While I don''t see anything wrong with reading fairy tales to little girls, they should also be exposed to stories with more realistic themes and morals, so that they aren''t "programmed" to automatically relate goodness and happiness to outward beauty and falling in love with price charming.

I also think that while it''s fun to play "princess" with a little girl, it''s extremely important to emphasis treating others with kindness and as equals so that our little girls don''t develop superiority complexes on the playground.

 

[sandia_rose]

Date: 2/26/2008 1:50:04 PM
Author: lindsaylove

I think it's all about balance. While I don't see anything wrong with reading fairy tales to little girls, they should also be exposed to stories with more realistic themes and morals, so that they aren't 'programmed' to automatically relate goodness and happiness to outward beauty and falling in love with price charming.

I also think that while it's fun to play 'princess' with a little girl, it's extremely important to emphasis treating others with kindness and as equals so that our little girls don't develop superiority complexes on the playground.

You're right about both counts. We live in such a different world from our grandmothers and mothers, though, so a lot of the "old thinking" no longer applies. I have a son, but if I had a daughter, I would teach her the values of self-respect, respect of others and personal pride. Those values would override any "programming." My own mother taught me to be self-reliant and independent, but she didn't instill in me the importance of loving yourself and realizing your own value as a woman. I've been teaching myself and learning as I go along (sometimes falling miserably on my @ss). So as a result, I've been successful in the workplace and in academia and not so much in romantic relationships. I sometimes wonder if what I want is even realistic and have a lot of self-doubt.

That being said, I agree with a previous poster that it's also OK to let kids be kids in regard to fairy tales. When I was a teenager, I loved gory, creepy horror movies. I still do (though nowadays, I gravitate towards Rob Zombie-style weirdness). That doesn't make me a psychopath or closet Black Widow.

Bridget in Connecticut.

 

[Independent Gal]

Re Paperbag princess, of more concern with little girls than them thinking their prince comes and they live happily ever after is the idea that they are passive recipients - if they are beautiful and high status enough - of male help, incapable of being happy on their own.

The story I recommended is about a Princess who is supposed to marry a Prince, but a dragon kidnaps him. She goes to hilarious and cunning lengths to rescue him from the dragon, but in the process ends up all ratty looking and wearing a paper bag, since the dragon has burnt up all her clothes. So when she finally rescues the prince, instead of saying thanks for the rescue he says "You look like a slob! your hair is all ratty and you''re wearing a BAG!" To which she replies something like "Roland (I think his name is Roland) you may be all clean and shiny and wearing nice clothes, but you are a DOLT" and then she skips off happily into the sunset.

Great story. Great lesson too.

I hope my (someday future) daughters grow up to value their ingenuity and bravery, wit and intelligence, and to feel that they can always rely on themselves if they have to. I hope they demand respect for who they are, not JUST what they look like. Besides, the kind of men I hope they choose to marry prefer that kind of woman: confident, self-sufficient, and full of life, not needy, passive, and dependent.

 

[peridot83]

Oh no harm done! My above comment had nothing to do with attractiveness featured in media.

Media directed towards men, tells "stories" or "fairy tales" of what a good relationship looks like (lots of sex, few responsibilites) and what a bad relationship (usually marriage) looks like (no sex, tons of responsibility).

I mentioned maxim, not for its airbrushed images, but because the features are all about desirable women who require nothing of men except great sex. Same with other media such as tv shows like entourage, nip/tuck etc.

Evidence of this is shown by male friends. They approve of any gf that gives their boys freedom, and disprove of any gf that restricts his freedom. That''s their simple test.

 

[aliciagirl]

I grew up with an upbringing quite the opposite of fairytales. I''m not even sure I saw a Disney movie? Not that I can remember. I grew up with "reality" shoved in my face day in and day out. "Men are all the same" "They''re all a bunch of trash" "You need your own money so that when he abuses you, you can move out and you won''t have to worry about it"

I think there definitely is a balance. I grew up to be very self-sufficient and focused all my energy of being intelligent rather than being a prize or princess for someone. But I also have serious issues about men that come from how I was raised.

It''s important, I think, for young girls and women to realize that life isn''t going to be like Cinderella but that''s not to say that they won''t find a nice, kind, wonderful man to be with (after 15 others break their hearts

). Just don''t over do it either way and I think she''ll be fine.

 

[HollyS]

Date: 2/26/2008 10:02:43 AM
Author: sandia_rose

Date: 2/25/2008 11:55:39 PM
Author: peridot83
Actually, I think boys suffer from fairytale syndrome as much as girls...perhaps even more so in this sense:

First: Boys don''t get their fairytales from Cinderella etc., but from magazines such as Maxim, tv shows such as entrourage, nip/tuck etc. These media emphasize the honeymoon phase of the relationship: when the couple is all over each other, there aren''t many responsibilities, and relatively few fights. These media also have a negative view on marriage/committed relationships (its a drag, women are whiny and complainy etc.) Media directed at males basically up-play the sex, downplay companionship/support etc.

BRAVO for posting this

. I couldn''t have said it better myself!

It gets harder for those of us who are not in our 20s anymore. I''m 39, and while I don''t look like I did in my 20s, I can pass for 30 most days. I''ve taken care of myself, wear a size 6 and project a young attitude. I have an 8 year old son and can get away with wearing a bikini if I wanted to - I don''t have cellulite or stretch marks. But again, no one is going to be fooled into thinking I am much younger than I am. And there are consequences to this. I have a good friend that I''ve posted about before. She''s 36, still single and while she''s not desperate, she''s very much looking. And she''s a catch! She''s got a great job, owns her own home, is educated, funny, intellegent, drop-dead gorgeous and has a lot of her own interests (she''s an artist and has traveled to some pretty exotic places by herself...just to check ''em out). The age range she is looking in for men is 30-40. She''s open to younger men, but not men in their 20s. And she is frustrated, because all of the men she''s dated and have been intererested in bypass her and go for younger girls. If things don''t work out with my current BF, I don''t know what I''ll do. I''d like to settle down, too. But the men in the age range I am looking in (a bit older than what my friend prefers) - 35 - 50 - want younger women....and a lot of times, have been badly burned by bad marriages, so they don''t want to settle down. In order for these men to settle down, they need to encounter perfection. They fully expect nothing less than a Maxim cover model. Nevermind that they can''t see that ''perfection'' doesn''t necessarily go for balding, overweight and older....unless money is part of the deal.

I hate to sound negative, I really do. But I feel the pressure to be young and perky and bimbo-ish....when I have already lived through that stage and have so much more to offer someone.....is relentless sometimes. I have a Marketing degree and have worked in advertising and promotion....and I will be the first to tell you that the media and all of the BS imagery that it shoves down our throats sucks.

I don''t allow my son to watch certain Disney Channel programs because they give an unrealistic view of life and how to act/treat others. I can''t change the men that are adults today, but I CAN do something to insure that the cycle isn''t perpetrated and that my little guy grows up with a better attitude and viewpoint.

Bridget in Connecticut.

Yes, but . . .

There are an awful lot of men out there -- men who are not classically good looking, or really wealthy -- men who don''t fit the ''mold'' of what most women have in the back of their mind. We have as much an ideal in mind as most men, and not everyone is going to fit that image. In fact, few can. So your fabulous friend needs to stop wondering why the ''great'' guys are passing her by, and find a really nice JOE AVERAGE to date. They exist, and I say this from experience -- none of the ''great'' guys I dated could hold a candle to my DH and how he loves me. And I gotta tell you, JOE AVERAGE does not believe the bull$!**% in Playboy, Maxim, etc. They know it''s just entertainment for the brain-adled; they might like the pictures but they know it''s nonsense. These are the guys who are going to treat you with real respect and affection. They won''t be looking for the next pretty thing.

 

[FrekeChild]

Date: 2/26/2008 7:03:02 PM
Author: HollyS

Date: 2/26/2008 10:02:43 AM

Author: sandia_rose

Date: 2/25/2008 11:55:39 PM

Author: peridot83

Actually, I think boys suffer from fairytale syndrome as much as girls...perhaps even more so in this sense:

First: Boys don''t get their fairytales from Cinderella etc., but from magazines such as Maxim, tv shows such as entrourage, nip/tuck etc. These media emphasize the honeymoon phase of the relationship: when the couple is all over each other, there aren''t many responsibilities, and relatively few fights. These media also have a negative view on marriage/committed relationships (its a drag, women are whiny and complainy etc.) Media directed at males basically up-play the sex, downplay companionship/support etc.

BRAVO for posting this

. I couldn''t have said it better myself!

It gets harder for those of us who are not in our 20s anymore. I''m 39, and while I don''t look like I did in my 20s, I can pass for 30 most days. I''ve taken care of myself, wear a size 6 and project a young attitude. I have an 8 year old son and can get away with wearing a bikini if I wanted to - I don''t have cellulite or stretch marks. But again, no one is going to be fooled into thinking I am much younger than I am. And there are consequences to this. I have a good friend that I''ve posted about before. She''s 36, still single and while she''s not desperate, she''s very much looking. And she''s a catch! She''s got a great job, owns her own home, is educated, funny, intellegent, drop-dead gorgeous and has a lot of her own interests (she''s an artist and has traveled to some pretty exotic places by herself...just to check ''em out). The age range she is looking in for men is 30-40. She''s open to younger men, but not men in their 20s. And she is frustrated, because all of the men she''s dated and have been intererested in bypass her and go for younger girls. If things don''t work out with my current BF, I don''t know what I''ll do. I''d like to settle down, too. But the men in the age range I am looking in (a bit older than what my friend prefers) - 35 - 50 - want younger women....and a lot of times, have been badly burned by bad marriages, so they don''t want to settle down. In order for these men to settle down, they need to encounter perfection. They fully expect nothing less than a Maxim cover model. Nevermind that they can''t see that ''perfection'' doesn''t necessarily go for balding, overweight and older....unless money is part of the deal.

I hate to sound negative, I really do. But I feel the pressure to be young and perky and bimbo-ish....when I have already lived through that stage and have so much more to offer someone.....is relentless sometimes. I have a Marketing degree and have worked in advertising and promotion....and I will be the first to tell you that the media and all of the BS imagery that it shoves down our throats sucks.
I don''t allow my son to watch certain Disney Channel programs because they give an unrealistic view of life and how to act/treat others. I can''t change the men that are adults today, but I CAN do something to insure that the cycle isn''t perpetrated and that my little guy grows up with a better attitude and viewpoint.


Bridget in Connecticut.

Yes, but . . .

There are an awful lot of men out there -- men who are not classically good looking, or really wealthy -- men who don''t fit the ''mold'' of what most women have in the back of their mind. We have as much an ideal in mind as most men, and not everyone is going to fit that image. In fact, few can. So your fabulous friend needs to stop wondering why the ''great'' guys are passing her by, and find a really nice JOE AVERAGE to date. They exist, and I say this from experience -- none of the ''great'' guys I dated could hold a candle to my DH and how he loves me. And I gotta tell you, JOE AVERAGE does not believe the bull$!**% in Playboy, Maxim, etc. They know it''s just entertainment for the brain-adled; they might like the pictures but they know it''s nonsense. These are the guys who are going to treat you with real respect and affection. They won''t be looking for the next pretty thing.

HollyS, we agree. BF isn''t Brad Pitt but he is by far the most amazing person ever, but if I had just been pursuing great (looking) men, then I never would have known that. He''s got tons more to offer me than any other man, ahem, I mean boy ever has. And I''m grateful that he wasn''t looking for Cindy Crawford, because he never would have seen my great qualities. Basically, both of us think that we''re great catches, and neither one of us think we''re settling.

I grew up watching Disney stories and came out thinking wow, the princess hardly even talked to the prince! How did she fall in love so fast?

 

[Circe]

I love fairy tales. I wrote my dissertation on them. These days, I teach them. (Seriously - man, I love my job.) And I think that they have a lot of incredibly positive messages to send to young girls (and young boys). Disney, on the other hand, has a lot to answer for: the bowdlerized, gender-stereotyped versions of a ubiquitious "Happy Ending" which they advocate are problematic, to say the least. And of course, they''re the most popular ones out there ....

Jane Yolen has two collections of enpowering fairy tales which might be useful for the parents out there: _Not One Damsel in Distress: World Folktales for Strong Girls_, and _Mightier than the Sword: World Folktales for Strong Boys_. They might be worth looking into, before you forget about the genre in its entirety ....

For the adults ... maybe I should make the commute home before I get started!

 

[LaraOnline]

This is such an interesting discussion! I rang my local book store, and it has the Paper Bag Princess!! I''m delighted. I''ll follow up on the others, as well.

My little girl is currently looking at her Sleeping Beauty picture book. (again)

I agree that some fairy stories seem terribly "european dark": the hero dies, the little match girl freezes, some fairy stories are hard to take!!

And I have definitely found my Prince Charming...perhaps if deep down I didn''t believe in fairy tales, I wouldn''t have put myself out there?

But...(and it''s a big but)...social norms seem to have completely sidelined so much of what WOMEN find important in relationships. It becomes selfish to even desire to get married in some social circles!!
It would be dishonest for me to say that my experiences as a single woman have not affected my sense of integrity and, in some intimate ways, my sense of what it is to be married.

Fairy tales, popular as they are among small girls, does little to address this dissonance between what women want, and what so many women get, for large parts of their (sexual/romantic) lives.

Surely, a strong culture will do more to look after a little girl''s interests, rather than just passing down ''happy stories'' about men?

I guess this is a brave new world (internet provides so many opportunities for genuine social interaction, rather than just receiving the wisdom of the traditional media) and we are still working it all out? The opportunities for women to live a genuine, emotionally rich life are surely now better than ever!?!

 

[diamondfan]

I think that if young girls do get fixated on the notion of the perfect man coming to rescue them or that the perfect man will make them whole or fix their lives, they are setting themselves up. I do not really think most of those tales show women as strong or independent, nor do I think they set up realistic role expectations. I only have sons, but I would want my daughter, if I had one, to know that love and romance are great, but are just a part of a life together. I would also want her to feel empowered to be on her own, and to not look toward a man as being necessary for her to feel complete or whole. But I would certainly also want her to feel love and passion and have romance when the time is right. It is really a balancing act. Remember the line in Pretty Woman where Richard Gere comes in the white limo at the end and says he is there to rescue her or something, and he makes his way up the fire escape? Well, it goes something like, when he gets there, "And then what happened?" and shes replies "She rescues him right back!" I always loved that line.

 

[FrekeChild]

Date: 2/26/2008 10:17:07 PM
Author: diamondfan
Remember the line in Pretty Woman where Richard Gere comes in the white limo at the end and says he is there to rescue her or something, and he makes his way up the fire escape? Well, it goes something like, when he gets there, ''And then what happened?'' and shes replies ''She rescues him right back!'' I always loved that line.

Ditto DF!!I love it too!

This thread kind of makes me think of "Pan''s Labyrinth" because it''s an *adult* fairy tale. But LO, don''t let your little girl see it until she''s at least 12 or so because it''s very dark compared to Disney.

 

[sandia_rose]

Date: 2/26/2008 10:09:27 PM
Author: LaraOnline

I agree that some fairy stories seem terribly ''european dark'': the hero dies, the little match girl freezes, some fairy stories are hard to take!!

We studied classical fairy tales in a literature class that I took in college, and there is a reason for the "darkness." Most of our fairy tales come from medievil times -- where daily life was hard, dirty and full of awful things like death, being imprisoned for debts, manual labor and hunger that people took for granted. Fairy tales seem harsh to us, but they were perfectly normal for the time they came out of. The Princess in the tower? Someone was getting holed up in the Tower of London every five seconds! And did you know that the schoolyard rhyme "Ring Around The Rosy" is about THE BLACK DEATH?!!

Not kidding!!! Check this out:

Ring around the rosy
(when the plague fleas bit you, the bite''d get red and would form a sore dark ring around it)

Pocket full of posies
(this originally was "pocket full of posy." Posy is the Middle English word for puss. When the flea bit you and the ring formed around the bitemark...a couple days later, it would swell up like a boil and fill with puss and fluid. Eeew.)

Ashes, ashes
(there were so many bodies that they couldn''t bury them fast enough. They''d pile everyone up in a big funeral pyre and light it until it burned down to ash)

We all fall down
(the plague pretty much felled everybody....unless you were a hermit with no human or animal contact)


My son really likes the Frog and Toad stories. They''re similar to fairy tales in that they have lessons in them, but they''re not threatening/scary. Frog and Toad are friends, and the books talk about their adventures, how they work out misunderstandings, etc. See: http://www.amazon.com/Frog-Toad-Treasury-Arnold-Lobel/dp/0060267887/ref=pd_bbs_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1204146999&sr=8-4

Bridget in Connecticut.

 

[brazen_irish_hussy]

My mother the femminist read me stories where women were the heroines. I loved them and will certainly read it to my kids. I truely LOVED this book, it was easy to read, well written and the stories were great: http://www.target.com/gp/detail.html/602-2724575-9722221?asin=1563085925&afid=yahoosspplp_bmvd&lnm=1563085925|Wise_Women:_Folk_and_Fairy_Tales_from_Around_the_World_:_Books&ref=tgt_adv_XSNG1060
I was definitely the ugly duckling growing up and felt it despite my mother's attempts to help me. I only felt better reading "Jane Eyre". It was the first story I read where the pretty one didn't win and the ugly one (the evil stepsister syndrome) was happy because she was smart and she was herself.
What makes Cinderella special? She's pretty. She allowed herself to be pushed around by everyone and in many of the versions, didn't seem to have any other redeaming traits.
The only other thing that made sleaping beauty special is she was a queen too. The prince certainly didn't gaze at her and think "I am in love with her because she is well read and witty".
Or how about a man looking at a beautiful dead woman in a glass case and wanting to kiss her. do you suppose he thought she would be a loving, stable mother to their children?

 

[FrekeChild]

Got this in an email this morning and it made me think of this thread...

This is the fairy tale that should have been read to us when we were little:
Once upon a time
in a land far away,
a beautiful, independent,
self-assured princess
happened upon a frog as she sat
contemplating ecological issues
on the shores of an unpolluted pond
in a verdant meadow near her castle.
The frog hopped into the princess'' lap
and said: " Elegant Lady,
I was once a handsome prince,
until an evil witch cast a spell upon me.
One kiss from you, however,
and I will turn back
into the dapper, young prince that I am
and then, my sweet, we can marry
and set up housekeeping in your castle
with my mother,
where you can prepare my meals,
clean my clothes, bear my children,
and forever feel
grateful and happy doing so. "
That night,
as the princess dined sumptuously
on lightly sautéed frog legs
seasoned in a white wine
and onion cream sauce,
she chuckled and thought to herself:
I don''t f***in’ think so.

 

[Delster]

brazen_irish_hussy I so agree! The protrayal of women in fairytales and the modern equivalents (I''m thinking of cartoons here) is very insipid. If you think about it there are just so few positive female role models in children''s media. And when you do find one, she''s almost invariably the sidekick

Thank goodness at least some of the Irish folklore I grew up with has strong women characters. Deirdre, Niamh and Maedbh may not have had happy endings but they were women who knew what they wanted and went for it!

 

[FrekeChild]

Speaking of insipid Disney characters I think Mulan was the best of them...I can''t really think of any that didn''t wait for the prince to come rescue her...Does Nala from the Lion King count?

 

[brazen_irish_hussy]

Date: 2/28/2008 12:02:51 PM
Author: FrekeChild
Speaking of insipid Disney characters I think Mulan was the best of them...I can't really think of any that didn't wait for the prince to come rescue her...Does Nala from the Lion King count?

I liked Belle too. She stood up to a beast for her father and saved the beast's life twice. Plus, she was shown as reading and with more than half a brain which helped.

I never liked it in those old Disney movies though. In fact, my favorites were ones like aristocrats and robin hood where the woman were atleast a bit proactive, I really didn't like sleeping beauty.

Shrek is another good one for self assured females, especially since she ends up not pretty in the end but still happy.

 

[Independent Gal]

Your earlier post about "The Pretty Girl Always Winning", Brazen, made me think of something in terms of being appreciated for being smart rather than pretty.

If what one values about oneself is one's intelligence, etc., being very beautiful can actually be a handicap. My sister for instance, is a knockout and very fashionable and elegant. She is also an excellent mathematician. Trouble is, no one will take her seriously. In college, she was constantly told that she was taking classes that were 'too hard' for someone like her (and then would end up doing amazingly well... once generating a charge of her having cheated!). Professors won't talk to her or belittle her and everyone basically encourages her not to 'worry her pretty little head about it' or talks to her in a tone like she's an idiot. I've seen this happen a few times and it is really, really outrageous, and for her it's soul-killing to be treated like a pretty little sex object like that when you 'feel' more smart than pretty, if you know what I mean.

Finally, she cut off her hair, dyed it a dark colour, and started dressing less nicely. That's the only way she could get respect. And no, she was not the least bit provocative in the way she dressed. Men just find HER provocative, unless she actively tries to make herself less nice to look at.

There was a very interesting off-broadway play about this kind of thing recently. Let me see if I can remember the title...

ETA: there are also dangers that come along with being a naturally provocative / beautiful girl. Let's just say my sister has found her black belt in Tai Kwon Do useful more than once in defending herself. How scary is THAT?

So I guess it all depends on your definition of winning!

 

[Bridesmaid]

We studied "Ring Around the Rosy" too in the Medieval Lit class I took. My professor mentioned the pus thing. He also said that there was a certain type of flower people believed would ward off the Plague if they carried it in their pockets. I can''t remember the kind of flower it was. Guess it depends on who you ask. But fascinating stuff.

Back to the OP -
I was the girliest girl possible when I was your daughter''s age and didn''t understand why my tomboy sister didn''t want to play princess all the time, but by the time I got to dating age, I''d realized that not all men are handsome princes who carry the princess off into the sunset. In fact, even the ones who try - like my wonderful boyfriend - sometimes fail miserably. Now, I''m 22 and living on my own. I''m living proof that loving fairy tales and being independent and self-reliant are not mutually exclusive.

For my major, I did a lot of psychology research in college, especially related to child development, and I''ve never heard of Cinderella syndrome. I think it''s a pop culture disorder, like arachnaphobia. For example, "specific phobia" is in the big book of disorders psychologists and psychiatrists use to diagnose (the DSM-IV) but the names for those specific phobias - arachnaphobia, claustrophobia, whatever - are not. In very few cases can people actually lose touch with reality because they see a spider, regardless of the phobia, and your daughter is highly unlikely to develop "Cinderella syndrome" from reading fairy tales.

The Paperbag Princess is WONDERFUL. So is the Frog and Toad series - that stresses friendship more than anything else.

You said your daughter is three - she''s at the perfect age for Beatrix Potter stories like "Peter Rabbit." "Jemima Puddleduck" is about a duck who wants to hatch her own eggs, but the farmer''s wife doesn''t think she can sit on them long enough, so she always takes them away. A fox tells Jemima she can use his shed. It''s not a happy ending; Jemima''s eggs are eaten, and she almost is too, but it''s still imaginary, but without the romance. As much of a fairy tale lover as I was, I loved "Jemima Puddleduck" and "Mrs. Tiggywinkle," despite their total lack of romance. Madeline books are also good - about a slightly rambunctious little girl at a school for girls in Paris. She''s always getting into mischief.

A really good children''s book about an independent female figure that does offer the romantic side (I realize I''m offering a lot of talking-animal books, but it''s the stories I remember and not the animals) is The Sailor''s Bride by Tony Waters. I don''t know if it''s even in print anymore, but I''m sure you could find it online. A very feminine lady mouse marries a celebrated sailor. One day, her husband''s captain tells her he was lost at sea, so she loads up their load of children into a boat and goes to find him. She rescues him, and they live happily ever after.

Hope this helps a little. I just glanced at my bookshelf to see anything helpful. I could go on for days...