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Wink said:
Oooh Shiny, Of all the posts in this thread so far, this one has the most ideas for posts that I want to participate in. I hope that Andrey will choose at least three of your ideas for threads right away, and down the line some of the less urgent ideas also. I suspect from your recent postings that you will be a participant/contributor to many of the threads that will be coming.

Wink
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You are far too kind, good sir :)

Hopefully any input from me (on any thread on the board!) will be valid / useful / not annoying! :lol:
 
TreeScientist said:
Seriously though @blueMA, I would've loved to look at your stone under 40X to see if there were such imperfections lying beneath the "10X surface" :)
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I saw a 40X 360 video of the rock on my huge IPS monitor and I didn't see a single inclusion when I bought the rock. I have a loupe up to 60x and I couldn't see it, and remember I was able to clearly read the inscription with one of my 40x. The darn thing just went frosty with an introduction of light.

Seeing @John Pollard post, it makes a total sense. I've been searching for a replacement rock and I can't even trust VS2 clarity level anymore, and the clarity of many VS certified rocks are appalling and many look even worse than some of my older SI1. It's just terrible, either GIA will have to update and improve the standards or consumers are paying more for less than desirable rocks.

I remember reading a thread where a VS2 rock got recut by Brian Gavin, and it came back as a VS1. I assumed perhaps he may have shaved off some inclusions, but now I suspect it's the softening of the GIA standards. I'm debating getting my stones recertified...
 
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I just saw a marquise with a big ugly bowtie. I think another great FAQ/Ask the Expert thread would be Bow Ties, the Good, The Bad and the Ugly. Or maybe something more along the lines of Bow Ties, Their Cause, Their Cure, and Why Do Cutters Cut Them That Way?

Wink
 
sledge said:
I see your point, but having some tutorials or FAQ's is very useful. I hope the threads can be setup in a manner so that the originator can continue to update the FIRST post so that it stays relevant as people ask questions, more data becomes available, technology improves, etc.

My bigger fear of this is you get a popular topic that is 10 pages long. While tons of good information was probably discussed, the reality is many people will not invest that much time so it can become counter-productive if the main thread isn't updated appropriately so newcomers can EASILY find the most up-to-date answer possible without reading through all the hoopla.

I've seen this done well on a garage forum I participate in. The admin will normally write up a small article and then link back to a forum topic as well so it can be discussed in detail and with user input. The main article can be updated as needed and remains in a different location.
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A really great idea about summarization of the 10-page threads. A very good point that when a thread does get too long, it loses utility.
 
Wink said:
I just saw a marquise with a big ugly bowtie. I think another great FAQ/Ask the Expert thread would be Bow Ties, the Good, The Bad and the Ugly. Or maybe something more along the lines of Bow Ties, Their Cause, Their Cure, and Why Do Cutters Cut Them That Way?

Wink
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Totally agree that this is a super common question- a tutorial would certainly be useful.
But limited in usefulness for one main reason- people want to know about the specific diamond they are considering- as opposed to general knowledge when it comes to bow ties. This will also be true for other super important, and widely misunderstood characteristics such as fluorescence.

Wink- I think that we, as sellers who are actually in the diamond business ( as opposed to the virtual diamond business) are the last "front line" to protect the aspects of diamonds that make them so special, and truly not a commodity.
I have viewed my time here in that light. Keeping a business alive that I truly love. I suspect we're in the same camp old buddy:)
 
Garry H (Cut Nut) said:
Pave (the e is like cafe) comes from french Pavement or cobble stones. Classic pave has the diamonds very very close together.
Melee is a word for small diamonds, often used in pave
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Now I understand, thanks Garry.
 
blueMA said:
"No BGM" is the industry term for a diamond that does not contain a brown or green shade (tinge) and does not have a milky or cloudy appearance.(Shade/tinge here does not refer to fancy colored diamonds.)”
http://feedback.rapnet.com/knowledgebase/articles/778818-what-is-no-bgm
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Perfect answer.
The G for Green was once important because most diamonds with a green tinge came from Zimbabwe and a lot of trade would not touch them. But now Mugabe is gone and the new Govt is trying to sort out the Chinese diamond corruption there - it may be that we all need to support the stones from Zim!
 
Miki Moto said:
Hi!
QUESTION: Who exactly cuts the super ideal diamonds (e.g. in-house vendor, cutting center)

Specifically, I am interested in who cuts these super ideals? Is it done in-house? Cutting-center? And if cutting center, where (e.g. U.S./India/Antwerp)? I am inquiring about WF, JA, and HOF to be specific.
And what about the virtual diamonds in inventory? What location do they come from and who cuts those?

Thank you.
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An update - Here is the most reliable chart showing where diamonds are mined, cut and polished and sold.
Note - India polishes more than 75%, and that equates to at least 90% of individual stones.
Also: synthetics are growing but have a huge way to go - even if the rough cost was really half the cost of natural (which is unlikely because most rough is a lower quality than most synthetics).
http://www.idexonline.com/pipeline_2017.pdf
 
Garry H (Cut Nut) said:
An update - Here is the most reliable chart showing where diamonds are mined, cut and polished and sold.
Note - India polishes more than 75%, and that equates to at least 90% of individual stones.
Also: synthetics are growing but have a huge way to go - even if the rough cost was really half the cost of natural (which is unlikely because most rough is a lower quality than most synthetics).
http://www.idexonline.com/pipeline_2017.pdf
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Resurrecting this old thread, sorry but this diagram linked by Garry was really interesting. So if I'm reading this right 3/4s of the value of diamond jewelry is kept by the retail jeweler, and the cutter only keeps 1/4 of the polished value, or 6% of the total jewelry value.
 
HDer said:
Resurrecting this old thread, sorry but this diagram linked by Garry was really interesting. So if I'm reading this right 3/4s of the value of diamond jewelry is kept by the retail jeweler, and the cutter only keeps 1/4 of the polished value, or 6% of the total jewelry value.
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More or less, but remember, each party adds value to their cost base. So retailers at the end of the chain have the highest cost base.
Also the largest players are at the start of the process, the miners, then the manufacturers. The retailers are by and large smaller operations with just a few exceptions
 
Yeah, it's understandable that retail will have the highest costs and make up the biggest chunk of the overall "value-add." But I was surprised in this age of internet retailers in 2017 that it would still be as high as 75%.
 
The IDEX-Tacy chart indeed is very illuminating, but it also raises questions. Some aspects probably need to be questioned, while others may be confusing.

When seeing the jump in added value from value of diamond-content to retail sales value of diamond-jewelry, a very important aspect is the added cost of the jewelry. In bigger size diamonds and their jewels (where we in PS tend to pay more attention to), the value of metal-content is relatively low, but in smaller size diamonds and their jewelry, it is clearly higher. Also, jewelers tend to work with higher mark-ups on lower-value items. That differentiation is missing in this chart, logically.

On the other hand, I compared this chart to the same one of 2014 last week. And to my surprise, contrary to all indications within the diamond-world, Tacy-IDEX says that the market-share of China and India (in retail-sales) has declined from 2014 to 2017. I take that with a huge grain of salt.

Live long,
 
Paul-Antwerp said:
The IDEX-Tacy chart indeed is very illuminating, but it also raises questions. Some aspects probably need to be questioned, while others may be confusing.

When seeing the jump in added value from value of diamond-content to retail sales value of diamond-jewelry, a very important aspect is the added cost of the jewelry. In bigger size diamonds and their jewels (where we in PS tend to pay more attention to), the value of metal-content is relatively low, but in smaller size diamonds and their jewelry, it is clearly higher. Also, jewelers tend to work with higher mark-ups on lower-value items. That differentiation is missing in this chart, logically.

On the other hand, I compared this chart to the same one of 2014 last week. And to my surprise, contrary to all indications within the diamond-world, Tacy-IDEX says that the market-share of China and India (in retail-sales) has declined from 2014 to 2017. I take that with a huge grain of salt.

Live long,
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Of course Paul. Diamond jewellery as measured can even have colored gems in the package.
 
Hi! I have two questions please.

Question 1: How long does it take for a rough diamond to reach the retail market?
For example, once a sightholder has their rough diamonds, how long does it take for these stones to reach the retail market for purchase? I am trying to understand how often diamond inventory is replenished.

Question 2: Related to the above, are finished diamonds released (or held back) based on consumer demand?
For example, if I am looking for 2ct stones and keep seeing the same 2ct stones listed as available, will these existing stones be the only ones available in inventory until they are sold at which point the next batch of 2ct stones gets released into the consumer market (e.g. to manage supply)?

Thank you.
 
Miki Moto said:
Hi! I have two questions please.

Question 1: How long does it take for a rough diamond to reach the retail market?
For example, once a sightholder has their rough diamonds, how long does it take for these stones to reach the retail market for purchase? I am trying to understand how often diamond inventory is replenished.
Of course it varies, but say a rough that yeilds a 1ct G VS2 RBC - prospecting takes maybe 10-30 years, mine development and permits, another 5-10 years, mine the rough and prepare for sale by grading etc, maybe 3- 6 months (Paul knows the rest better than me) then a manufacturer tries to polish and sell asap - Rapaport claim stones move around 3 times a year, so 4 months? A jewellery wholsealrer buys it and takes 6 months to sell it to a retailer. Retailers typically have a 1 a year or worse stockturn - pleas eadd up and save me the time :-)

Question 2: Related to the above, are finished diamonds released (or held back) based on consumer demand? De Beers did this up untilabout 1998 / 1999 - eg when the Asian fin crisis of 1997, they held back high color high clarity goods - but that led to the demise and the Oppenheimer family were forced to sell out (largely).
For example, if I am looking for 2ct stones and keep seeing the same 2ct stones listed as available, will these existing stones be the only ones available in inventory until they are sold at which point the next batch of 2ct stones gets released into the consumer market (e.g. to manage supply)? Have you seen the new subscription service to be updated on stones you are searching for? It is near the bottom of the search criteria - it is super smart - congratulations Andrey

Thank you.
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@Garry H (Cut Nut) Thanks for your reply. On the low-end of your estimates, that would be a total of 29 years. Using high-end of your estimates, that would be 57 years. Assuming the earlier steps are completed (e.g. prospecting, mine development, permits) and the mine is productive, that is still 14-17 years. Still... a very long time.

Thanks for the tip on the subscription service. I just set that up.
 
Miki Moto said:
@Garry H (Cut Nut) Thanks for your reply. On the low-end of your estimates, that would be a total of 29 years. Using high-end of your estimates, that would be 57 years. Assuming the earlier steps are completed (e.g. prospecting, mine development, permits) and the mine is productive, that is still 14-17 years. Still... a very long time.

Thanks for the tip on the subscription service. I just set that up.
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Great

http://www.geocrystal.com.au/ is a new prospecting company with one of my very very old friends as a consultant. Ewen Tyler started the search for Argyle and other productive mines in Australia.
We are both investors - it looks really good to me
 
Garry H (Cut Nut) said:
Great

http://www.geocrystal.com.au/ is a new prospecting company with one of my very very old friends as a consultant. Ewen Tyler started the search for Argyle and other productive mines in Australia.
We are both investors - it looks really good to me
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That looks great... maybe you will find the next batch of blue diamonds!
Speaking of Australia, I live in the U.S. and used to travel often to Australia on business...before I got into diamonds. Had I known better back then, I would have picked up some pink diamonds. Instead, all I have to show for my trips to Australia are black opals and a sheepskin rug. It is beautiful down there. =)2
 
With regards to Lab Grown Diamonds / Man Made Diamonds, I am slightly confused with regards to where/when/how they are supposed to be marked as such.

IIRC lab stones sent for grading will be marked up as Lab Grown (or whatever the wording chosen is) as part of the laser etching service.

And De Beers have stated they will be inscribing their MMD line with (what I assume will be) an internal pattern that indicates they are MMDs, which is all but invisible to the naked eye (in a similar fashion to the Rolex coronet on the underside of their watch crystals, I imagine).

But if it's possible to purchase CVD/HPHT MMD rough and then have it cut (or cut it yourself as, I presume, there won't be many street-level purchasers, more likely that cutters will be buying it) when does it get inscribed as MMD?
Or does it not automatically get inscribed as MMD?
Would the fact it a stone was MMD only ever come to light if it was sent off to be graded by a lab?

If so, does this mean that, in theory, it would be possible to purchase MMD rough, cut it, and then sell it as ungraded (natural / vintage) diamonds (within jewellery)?
 
OoohShiny said:
If so, does this mean that, in theory, it would be possible to purchase MMD rough, cut it, and then sell it as ungraded (natural / vintage) diamonds (within jewellery)?
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Hi OoohShiny,

Trying not to scare you or anyone, but part of your theory is not impossible.

Now, as far as synthetic diamonds (I prefer the gemmologically correct wording) go, there is a lot of exaggeration within the industry. The most important voices attesting and warning about synthetic diamonds being mixed into parcels of natural melee-size diamonds are also offering grading-services and/or selling detection-equipment. And while the sale of detection-equipment and the usage of lab-screening services is going, I cannot help but think that it is a business growing on the basis of an exaggerated fear.

In reality, there are many producers of very small size synthetic diamonds, and very few of bigger size. Still, with the risk of being caught, and easy tracking to where the switch has occurred, it does not seem to be a very attractive criminal business-model.

And for bigger size synthetic diamonds, most producers do not sell the rough as such. Instead, they try to keep most of the cutting under their control and sell the polished semi-direct. This also reduces the likelihood of your scenario.

Still, in certain parts of the world and in certain more shady retail-environments, there are stories about consumers being faced with fraud. And the stone does not need to come without a lab-report. Rumor is that empty GIA-reports (just the report without the stone) can fetch a reasonable price on some black markets. Word is that fraudsters use such report to adapt a synthetic diamond's basic measurements to those on the report, inscribe the synthetic diamond with the GIA-number, and then present the synthetic diamond as a legitimate natural diamond with GIA-report.

All in all, with the scarcity of bigger synthetic diamonds and the ease of tracking the culprit in a legitimate trading environment, these are extreme exceptions. Still, it comes back to the old adagio: 'If it is too good to be true, it generally is not true.'

Live long,
 
Thanks for the reply, Paul! :))
 
Echoing what Paul said, there are good controls in place at this time, but it is only logical to assume as more synthetic material is pushed out into the market there will be more fraud associated with it. It will get pretty sophisticated, no doubt.

This will make it even more important to shop for diamonds certified by trusted labs and deal with knowledgeable merchants with impeccable integrity.

This will likely be a boon for the labs!
 
Texas Leaguer said:
Echoing what Paul said, there are good controls in place at this time, but it is only logical to assume as more synthetic material is pushed out into the market there will be more fraud associated with it. It will get pretty sophisticated, no doubt.

This will make it even more important to shop for diamonds certified by trusted labs and deal with knowledgeable merchants with impeccable integrity.

This will likely be a boon for the labs!
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I think the labs are doing pretty good as is Bryan :-)
GIA at +100,000 stones a week is a goldmine, and no tax. Wonder where it all goes?
 
Much of their assets are tied up in property. GIA has labs/schools globally with their base in Carlsbad. I visited their campus and museum, I think it's worth a trip, especially when they have gem exhibitions. GIA does a lot of research and offers education to those who want to be in the trade. They have campuses for students to become a graduate gemologist as well as other certifications. The GIA Graduate Gemologist certification carries a lot of weight in the industry.

You almost always see members in the trade say they are a GIA Graduate Gemologist and a member of AGS.
 
HDer said:
The CEO makes over half a million: https://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2016/330/990/2016-330990032-0ea704c5-9O.pdf

Which honestly is not that bad when you compare it to the Educational Testing Services "nonprofit" that runs most of the standardized tests in this country. That CEO makes over 1.2 million: https://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2016/210/634/2016-210634479-0e551433-9.pdf
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Totally agree with your point. And half a million to be a CEO of any company is nothing.
 
Miki Moto said:
Totally agree with your point. And half a million to be a CEO of any company is nothing.
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Susan Jaques was the CEO of Warren Buffets Omaha monster jewellery store Borsheims prior to taking up the position as head of GIA. I think she probably took a pay cut. I have heard her speak a couple of times and she seems to be worthy. Far more impressive than her predecessor who took over from Bill Boyajian when GIA graders were bribed and he (very sadly) resigned.
 
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