Final Battle: Supercert vs the local guy. Sarin/Mega for both.

[moolman]

Dancing Fire,
Yup, exactly, nothing against the appraiser, he''s well qualified. I guess I went to the wrong source. I thought that an appraiser who''s seen many top rate H&A diamonds could give me a professional opinion on a diamond I brought it. But basically the answer was, yes, it''s good because the proportions are right, he''s really against the numbers basically, he''s point of view from what I understood was basically, if it falls within the ideal range, they are all the same regardless of the Sarin, H&A design.

The only useful info I got was that my diamond matched the cert. I guess the only good thing was that I asked him, does the diamond lack in anyway compared to the internet diamonds he''s seen before and he said besides the faint flouresence which makes no difference in anything, it''s the same quality. I also asked him about the light performance and he thought they were as good. I guess the reason I was not satisified is that I''m an engineer and I wanted more of a reason why it was like that, not just because he thinks so because it''s ideal.

Thanks for all the advice.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 3/9/2005 1:34

6 AM
Author: moolman
Dancing Fire,
Yup, exactly, nothing against the appraiser, he''s well qualified. I guess I went to the wrong source. I thought that an appraiser who''s seen many top rate H&A diamonds could give me a professional opinion on a diamond I brought it. But basically the answer was, yes, it''s good because the proportions are right, he''s really against the numbers basically, he''s point of view from what I understood was basically, if it falls within the ideal range, they are all the same regardless of the Sarin, H&A design.

The only useful info I got was that my diamond matched the cert. I guess the only good thing was that I asked him, does the diamond lack in anyway compared to the internet diamonds he''s seen before and he said besides the faint flouresence which makes no difference in anything, it''s the same quality. I also asked him about the light performance and he thought they were as good. I guess the reason I was not satisified is that I''m an engineer and I wanted more of a reason why it was like that, not just because he thinks so because it''s ideal.

Thanks for all the advice.

moolman
have you seen other top cut stones? how do you know your stone is a true H&A? if you look into jewelry case with 20 ideal cut stone rings,they will not look identical even though they''re all ideal cuts,there maybe 1 or 2 that looks like better performers.

 

[Maxine]

But I thought you said this diamond was from the internet....it was on the search here and available through WF, and others??

 

[Lord Summerisle]

I read that as, while the stone is at his local shop... said shop has its diamonds listed in the pricescope search engine.

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 3/8/2005 11:18:14 PM
Author: moolman

Fortekitty,
You or anyone else can have it, just email me. It''s at a Los Angeles store in downtown.

[email protected]

Ok.......my alarm bells just went off.

Moolman, what''s your agenda? You''re here saying you are comparing two stones and you really want to buy from your local guy as long as the stone is comparable. Several people have told you that it is comparable by the numbers.

Why, then, would you want to turn around and encourage others to purchase the stone you are considering for purchase?

I know that if *I* were considering a stone, I certainly wouldn''t want to worry about sending others who may buy it out from under me.

My radar senses there is something e;se going on here. I have a guess, but I''m going to keep it to myself for now.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 3/9/2005 8:10:49 AM
Author: aljdewey

Date: 3/8/2005 11:18:14 PM

Author: moolman


Fortekitty,

You or anyone else can have it, just email me. It''s at a Los Angeles store in downtown.


[email protected]

Ok.......my alarm bells just went off.


Moolman, what''s your agenda? You''re here saying you are comparing two stones and you really want to buy from your local guy as long as the stone is comparable. Several people have told you that it is comparable by the numbers.


Why, then, would you want to turn around and encourage others to purchase the stone you are considering for purchase?


I know that if *I* were considering a stone, I certainly wouldn''t want to worry about sending others who may buy it out from under me.


My radar senses there is something e;se going on here. I have a guess, but I''m going to keep it to myself for now.

I was wondering about that myself.
It certainly doesnt fit with the rest of what has been posted.

 

[Lord Summerisle]

so is Blue Alert ok... I dont think i know where the red bulb is...

 

[pqcollectibles]

Date: 3/8/2005 3:42

0 PM
Author: moolman
If it makes a difference to your opinion, the local stone is a little less than a thousand dollars cheaper than the Supercert stone. You can find the diamond and GIA cert in pricescope actually, just do a search for 1.32 F VS2 and check out the dimensions for it 7.12-7.14, the price is a couple of hundred less than the lowest internet price.

Is it possible to get a real nice diamond from the pricescope search, this is found when the H&A is not click on the search but it has the H&A pattern.

IMHO, you may have answered your own question right there. While the local diamond exhibits patterns, is it a true H&A??!! Just because you''ve seen diamonds without H&A patterns, and this diamond exhibits H&A patterns, does not mean it''s a true H&A. And if it''s not a true H&A with clean crisp patterns, then that could explain the pricing difference. Doesn''t mean it''s not a fabulous diamond that will knock her sock off, but true H&A''s do come with a pricing premium attached. Many non H&A diamonds are fabulous performers offering buyers a bit of a bargain in pricing when compared to H&A''s.

Barry is usually very accommodating. He could possible ship the SC diamond to a local appraiser for you to view in person. Barry has done that for other people in the past. Without paying in advance. Maybe you can have both diamonds sent to your appraiser so you can see them side by side in person. The SC stone may be a bit better performer, but will it be $1K better?? The local diamond may have unique personality that you just absolutely love. The best way to decide would be to see them side by side. Your eye is the one that has to be totally pleased with your decision. And your mental comfort down the road is also important. You may continue to wonder if you made the right decision. If you see both diamonds together, you''ll know for sure.

 

[pqcollectibles]

Date: 3/9/2005 1:34

6 AM
Author: moolman
Dancing Fire,
Yup, exactly, nothing against the appraiser, he''s well qualified. I guess I went to the wrong source. I thought that an appraiser who''s seen many top rate H&A diamonds could give me a professional opinion on a diamond I brought it. But basically the answer was, yes, it''s good because the proportions are right, he''s really against the numbers basically, he''s point of view from what I understood was basically, if it falls within the ideal range, they are all the same regardless of the Sarin, H&A design.

The only useful info I got was that my diamond matched the cert. I guess the only good thing was that I asked him, does the diamond lack in anyway compared to the internet diamonds he''s seen before and he said besides the faint flouresence which makes no difference in anything, it''s the same quality. I also asked him about the light performance and he thought they were as good. I guess the reason I was not satisified is that I''m an engineer and I wanted more of a reason why it was like that, not just because he thinks so because it''s ideal.

Thanks for all the advice.

The appraiser could have thought you were asking him to tell you whether you should buy or not. While they will tell you about the diamond, point out any faults, and verify that it matches the Cert, an appraiser is not going to make the purchase decision for you.

When I was deciding to purchase my diamond, I was extremely nervous about getting a J color. Especially since I was going to mount in platinum. I asked an appraiser his thoughts about the color grade. "J is neither good nor bad", he said, "It it what it is." The appraiser doesn''t see with my eyes or purchase with my budget. He could tell me if it''s a good diamond, and matches the Cert, and is priced competitvely, but he can''t decide whether I should actually make the purchase.

Whether to buy or not is totally up to you.

 

[pqcollectibles]

Date: 3/9/2005 8:10:49 AM
Author: aljdewey

Date: 3/8/2005 11:18:14 PM
Author: moolman


Fortekitty,
You or anyone else can have it, just email me. It''s at a Los Angeles store in downtown.

[email protected]

Ok.......my alarm bells just went off.

Moolman, what''s your agenda? You''re here saying you are comparing two stones and you really want to buy from your local guy as long as the stone is comparable. Several people have told you that it is comparable by the numbers.

Why, then, would you want to turn around and encourage others to purchase the stone you are considering for purchase?

I know that if *I* were considering a stone, I certainly wouldn''t want to worry about sending others who may buy it out from under me.

My radar senses there is something e;se going on here. I have a guess, but I''m going to keep it to myself for now.

That could be frustation speaking there, ALJD. MM seems a bit overwhelmed that buying a diamond isn''t as straight forward as comparing the color/clarity/carat weight to the Rap Report to see if he''s getting a decent/fair price. (Reference MM''s previous Rap Report post.) At least I hope that''s what that comment was.

 

[hoorray]

Date: 3/9/2005 9:48:50 AM
Author: pqcollectibles

Date: 3/8/2005 3:42

0 PM
Author: moolman
If it makes a difference to your opinion, the local stone is a little less than a thousand dollars cheaper than the Supercert stone. You can find the diamond and GIA cert in pricescope actually, just do a search for 1.32 F VS2 and check out the dimensions for it 7.12-7.14, the price is a couple of hundred less than the lowest internet price.

Is it possible to get a real nice diamond from the pricescope search, this is found when the H&A is not click on the search but it has the H&A pattern.

The PS search engine can only use the info available to it, and from what I understand, the H&A info provided by the manufacturers is spotty. It may or may not be a true H&A. The best way to know is to view it through an H&A viewer and make your own mind up.

As everyone says, this sounds like a beautiful stone, and from what you are saying, it sounds like a great price. THere is a point where you eye really can''t discern the differences in cut variations. A diamond is like art as much as it is science. We know that certain specs lead to better performing stones, but at the end of the day, it''s about what looks good to you. I would suggest letting the engineer in you take a break -- it has done it''s job by finding 2 stones with great specs. Now try listening to the feedback from your eyes.

 

[moolman]

Sorry guys, no hidden agenda, after all the good reviews I put a down payment on the diamond, non-refundable. But right afterwards I got buyer''s remorse, I''m going crazy right now Just give me a chance to catch my breath. Maybe I want a bigger one now, maybe I should say screw it pay the $1000 extra for something that is supposed to be perfect, perfect no matter what and buy online. Just buyer''s remorse thinking of all the possiblities after the fact.

If you check my previous posts I posted for smaller diamonds, asking for opinions, now I''m at 1.3''s.

Lop, for what it''s worth Mr Carmona, said the diamond had a good H&A pattern but what got me worried a bit, is that he just gave a passing glance at best I thought, maybe he''s such a professional at it that he can just tell but it takes me a while to align everything up with my eye and the viewer.

 

[moolman]

I would like to give a big thumbs up to Sarin. To Mr. Lederer of Sarin. I emailed them through the sarin webpage. I got a response from him within a couple of hours, rare for any company, I emailed verragio about my setting and it took them days to repond and that was after 3 emails.

Anyway, as mentioned before on my first post of this thread, the Sarin numbers were off, the diagram and data table were off by 0.2 in the crown angle and the number was misaligned. It needed a space in front of it so that all the numbers of that column are aligned correctly. The table size was different too and also misaligned.

Well, I was thinking, maybe they fudged the numbers, the guy I was buying it from knew I would check HCA, so who knows in this world.

Anyway, I sent a copy to Sarin and they say that the misalignment and different numbers can be attributed to round off method used and software. He was saying that the vendor who gave me the report should of used the same LAB rounding method. So in the diagram they could be using AGS rounding and the data table HRS rounding. Whatever HRS is.

Here''s a scan of the report, You can disagree with the sarin guy too for those who know what the report should look like, if you think it looks fishy, let me know.

The crown angle and table size are both misaligned with the column and different than the ones on the diagram. Table size is also missing the mm after 4.10 on the data table. So I was thinking maybe the numbers were being changed around.

 

[Regular Guy]

Alex,

While we worry about you, I hope you’re doing well. Thanks now for the update.

Some of the rest here is designed to respond to John, and may or may not be helpful; I’m hoping it’s more helpful than highjack.

John,

Note…while in college publishing, my friend and editor, Frank Rugirello – when not wearing his editorial hat, would be working in construction – and when serving as the computer science editor for the books our company published, shared with me that he would sometimes be reluctant to comment on one thing or another, lest he get in trouble. Frank was actually one of our best editors, as he would help us bead down on the factors that usefully differentiated our books from our competitors, it is traditional that the editors in college publishing come up through sales, and – rather than being content experts – they were accordingly trained in understanding markets, and their needs.

Also, actually, the letters I’d seen from Frank went on quite long. Anyway, as Frank would have us know he wanted to avoid getting in trouble by getting into things he wasn’t well prepared to comment on…I will do the same.

H&A.

The safest course for a consumer, you’d think, when seeking to optimize, and when in any doubt, would be to reference two competing systems that are designed to describe excellence, and go for a point common to both systems.

John, you’ve said: “It''s unlikely the labs will take a conclusive position on this for obvious reasons…”

The reasons are not obvious to me. Moreover, it’s not clear to me that we’re not spending time talking about a paper tiger, which was your point to begin with.

I do understand that H&A is quite recognized in Asia, is a talking point here, and is the main feature of a Hearts of Fire Diamond, if not what has been a significant descriptor for a WF ACA diamond. But…maybe your original point is more the point.

Where it seems AGS & GIA do recognize importance, in addition to the major crown & pavilion angles, is in the minor facets. (I’m not sure, by the way, why none of the GIA & AGS talk has seemed to touch on other posts and ideas like painted or gouged girdles, which seems to differentiate whole lines within WF.) Your point, unless I’m mistaken, is that H&A is a strategy for perfecting the ideal relationship between the minor facets. Maybe the effect of making ideal the relationships between the minor facets is the point WF needs to be making, about why its diamonds are better than most. Then again, maybe WF understands H&A is a convenient substitute descriptor for this. But, when not recognized as a value added feature by the labs….well, for Alex, anyway, if the thing that you need him to understand is the qualitative difference between yours and theirs is this possible difference associated with the alignment of minor facets, figuring out the best way to communicate this may be the challenge. Moreover, understanding who the ideal third party would be that can confirm the advantage is another challenge yet again.

Although afraid I’ve said a lot to say very little (note my new tag line after Ira Z), I’ll take that risk for the hope of a possible benefit; hope this may prompt something useful for someone.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Hey Ira,

I’m traveling – just got into my hotel room – so time for comments is brief. Therefore I’m going to go a little Rugirello on you, but before we move forward please read the following threads which already have addressed some of this (with input from several camps).

GIA discussion (you participated, but look over the last 2 pages again), found here.

Perspective on possible AGS grading (now somewhat dated), found here.

…and AGS discussion and comparison of minor facet involvement to GIAs, found here.

(Hehe…You are the link king and I just stole a page from your book!)

The point made subtly but appropriately in the GIA discussion is that their involving minor facets may be motivated by politics. This is borne out by the ridiculous ‘within 5%’ approach. I support the argument that minors are insignificant compared to finding proven sets of majors, which is all the labs are really trying to do for the masses (as regards proportions anyway). But the 5% thing blows any sense of reason away. My reasoning and graphics about this abound in those threads.

Scope! Our patterning pundit world – though substantive to the PS educated – is rarified in the scheme of things. Therefore, any fanfare made by we advocates of patterning must be kept in perspective or else we’ll be decried as making mountains out of molehills (though surely to us they are mountains, and must be climbed).

So, on the whole, this is more than paper tiger but less than lions, tigers and bears (oh my!). It’s a niche issue…we are the ‘tweeners.

Without making a huge noise, we are committed to further education on this – for us and for any interested in listening. As for your ‘third party,’ verification - that’s easy. We hear it all the time from thousands of consumer owners.

This will end my part in the thread-hijack. Ira we can continue by PM and if you’d like to start a new thread as a result I’ll be the bald one waving the pom-poms.