Fix it or Forget it - Volume 2

[kenny]

Actually I was surprised it remained available since May when the previous buyer decided against it and generated many pages of buzz about it.

 

[Cind11]

Wow, what a predicament! I can somewhat relate because I have always been a perfectionist. I have driven myself nuts. My husband always wants me to look at things he buys because I will find flaws that no one else will. That being said, in the last few years I have eased up. It just seems like nothing is perfect anymore. And frequently trying to "fix" something I have found makes it worse. If it was me, and I had originally had a "perfect" stone, it would bother me, especially for the price. However, it sounds like it would take a very long time to find a like asscher. So, if some kind of compensation could be given to me (and good luck figuring out how much) I would keep the stone especially if I loved it. I assume (perhaps wrongly) that you will never sell or trade in the stone, so would it matter that the polish grade doesn''t match the report? If you would ever trade it in or sell it, then I guess I''d send it back. I don''t know, from everything you''ve said, it just sounds like you will NOT be happy now. That''s very unfortunate, but maybe that''s your answer.

 

[Regular Guy]

Kenny,

Finally have had a chance to catch up. Not much to add, except that when reading through, and seeing Jazmine's comments, I agreed, too.

Back on page one of this thread, you said:

Date: 12/15/2006 9:53:03 PM
Author: kenny


Jonathan recommended I take the asscher to a local qualified appraiser to find if she/he thinks the polish is still GIA Ex.
Today I called Jennifer Thornton-Davis, GG, MGA ASA, NAJA.
She's in the PS appraiser list.

She said the price was set by the GIA specs, and the only way to be sure is to send it back to GIA.
If it comes back Ex you can consider the issue is resolved.
If not then determine what price adjustment is fair. (I have no idea how to do this.)
She said she could look at it but GIA is the only one who can make the official call.

The highlighted text above...I take it is your words, not hers.

And, your question remains...what would the theoretical discount be?

Maybe you can just establish this for yourself, with or without payment to an independent appraiser, and work this out as a proposal. Then also, determine whether you would first wait to resubmit to GIA to actually get the downgrade, or consider working out a modified adjustment, based on not having sent it back.

(edited to add...) In this case...a) seeing the diamond is sort of besides the point, especially in consideration of the fact that b) you will really need 2 prices from the appraiser. One for the current theoretical vg polish, and another for the ostensible excellent polish, one of which would not be in hand. You would suppose at the outset that neither price would match what Jonathan has his costs set at, but the difference between the two prices would set the proportional basis for the adjustment.

Best wishes,

 

[decodelighted]

Date: 12/16/2006 1:28:52 AM
Author: wallermama
(I also have a vvs2 asscher, by the way...so I know that many PS''ers roll their eyes at us

) But I also know what it takes to find an asscher that is that awesome. Don''t think that any $28,000 asscher will look like yours, because really, none will. That''s the beauty, AND the pain in the *ss about asschers.

Oh yeah, VVs1 gal here too!

So I *can* relate! Yet I don''t own even own a 10x loupe. I prefer not to know what''s happened since it left GIA & especially since it''s been on my finger everyday... knocked around & caked in dog slopper

Is it the "deal" you have to love ... or the diamond? Or both.

p.s. - thanks for the complements about my Asscher & setting re-do Kenny! I do

it so ... & it ain''t even Stmwrthy.

 

[mrssalvo]

Kenny,

Just catching up on this thread. If if were me, I''d try to work out compensation for the downgrade and keep the stone. How to do that? I''m sure Jon or any other vendor can give you pricing if the stone is a vg/ex and it will be up to you two to decide what price adjustment if fair. maybe Jon could make and offer and you can accept or decline. Now, if you really want an ex/ex that you paid for, get a refund and try to find a new stone that comes to you perfect. i wouldn''t mess with trying to fix it again. Someone will love it as is if you decide you don''t want it.

 

[widget]

I''m really really sorry you''re having so much heartache with your superb diamond, Kenny.

The only thing this adventure has taught ME is that I will never ever subject a jewel of mine to scrutiny under a superduper high-powered microscope. For me, anyway, there is some information that I don''t need to know...

widget

 

[moremoremore]

you can thank Ms. Belle for causing me not to write, DUDE COME ON, GET A GRIP.... This is so microscopic and insignificant to ME...Now I see her point.

The issue is that it bothers YOU....and just that fact makes me think that you should get this fixed if possible....You spent the $ and love your stone...Your perception is your reality so even though it not might bother us, it clearly bothers you and I get the feeling you're trying to talk yourself out of going with what your heart tells you - send it back....
BTW...I can't imgine this causing this to go from EX to vG polish.... ??

Before you start driving yourself crazy with the issue of price, get it checked out. One step at a time!

 

[jenniegirlm]

Date: 12/15/2006 10:56:18 PM
Author: kenny
This is really strange.

Apparently most people think it is okay to be sent a $28,000 VVS2 diamond with a chip that is not on the report.
Then after sending it back finding out it now has a polish grade that may not match the report.

This is all just Kenny being too picky?
Just take whatever they send you and set it into a ring?
And don''t look too closely?

Kenny, I understand how you''re feeling. Sure the chip or polish lines may be microscopic and could be hidden under a setting, but YOU know it''s there. Kind of like the "eye-clean/mind clean" definition of SI2''s. It would bother me too. Plus of course the more practical reasons of not having the GIA report match the diamond - could that cause some issues if/when upgrading? You''re not being too picky, you''re a smart and educated consumer. I understand how you couldn''t just "forget about it."

 

[pyramid]

Even if GIA said it did not affect the Excellent grade I am suspecting you would not be happy with the surface as it was not the same as the rest of the diamond. You may think of it as repaired rather than new. You have to do what is right for you Kenny, if you change your ways of thinking about perfection it may be for the good but I think you could only do that after this stone not because of it as I think you would feel you are settling. I think you have to make a decision and stick with it.

I feel like this because I used to be like this, I wanted a F VS1 or VVS2 when I first posted here about 1 carat, now I want a larger stone and because of cost but also I have changed my way of thinking, I will now go for G maybe H and will go for VS2. I am starting to see that everything manufactured has flaws and what really helped me a lot was what Garry Holloway wrote on this board about rings being of retail quality and not museum quality. I know you paid a lot more than I will be paying but I feel that museum quality maybe should be kept in a museum and not worn in everyday life where it can get marked. I have read that collectors who have portfolios of stones of D Flawless etc. do not wear the diamonds, that the Flawless could get damaged just in the setting of the stone and make it Internally Flawless. Polish on a new loose stone is maybe different but the cutter must have thought the job was satisfactory when he finished polishing it and gave it back to Jonathan. These are the same people cutting the Excellent Polish diamonds, can Jonathon ask him/her about it, was it polished as best it could be to retain the Excellent symmetry. When the diamond is set the polish could get messed up surely if a flawless stone can become internally flawless, if you are going with the tension set how would you know that the setting didn't damage the polish in setting the stone as you would never see it unless the stone was unmounted again and then the unmounting could have caused it anyway. So is it scratches which make a diamond internally flawless or would that have to be deeper like a nick, I don't know?

You said Kenny that you would not worry about any damage done after you have the stone so maybe you are thinking differently. Does this mean then that you will never put the ring under a microscope after it is set and leave all the checking to your jeweller.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I loved wallermama''s reply!

But it seems to me that there are 3 clear options:

1) Send the stone to GIA for regrading, and if it comes back lower, then talk to Jonathan about the price. There is no basis to negotiate on the price unless the stone is proven to be graded differently.

2) Return the stone.

3) Forget this, set your stone, and never again use a high powered microscope to look at gemstones!!!!!!! How you can see the polish marks with a 10x loupe amazes me!

What is the magnification level in those pictures anyway, Kenny?

 

[kenny]

I don't know what the magnification is of the pics; besides it will be larger if you have a larger monitor.
But it is not relevant because the original chip and the polish lines are MANY times more easy to see than GIA's-plotted inclusions on the report - either with a 10x loupe or a microscope.
I don't think it is possible to recreate the live experience of viewing through a 10x loupe on a computer monitor.
The resolution of the monitor itself would limit the detail you could make out.

I may be good at photography and do have access to good equipment.
The pics are higher magnification than 10x - that helps viewers see what I'm trying to describe.
That does not change the fact that the stone didn't/doesn't match the report based on what is visible with a 10x loupe.
The price was determined by the GIA report.

Everyone is bring up excellent perspectives to think about, but I feel the core issue is whether I got what I paid for.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Date: 12/16/2006 3:36:42 PM
Author: kenny
I don''t know what the magnification is of the pics; besides it will be larger if you have a larger monitor.
But it is not relevant because the original chip and the polish lines are MANY times more easy to see than GIA''s-plotted inclusions on the report - either with a 10x loupe or a microscope.
I don''t think it is possible to recreate the live experience of viewing through a 10x loupe on a computer monitor.
The resolution of the monitor itself would limit the detail you could make out.

I may be good at photography and do have access to good equipment.
The pics are higher magnification than 10x - that helps viewers see what I''m trying to describe.
That does not change the fact that the stone didn''t/doesn''t match the report based on what is visible with a 10x loupe.
The price was determined by the GIA report.

Everyone is bring up excellent perspectives to think about, but I feel the core issue is whether I got what I paid for.

Kenny, then the only way to know that is to send the stone to GIA.

 

[mrssalvo]

Date: 12/16/2006 3:36:42 PM
Author: kenny



Everyone is bring up excellent perspectives to think about, but I feel the core issue is whether I got what I paid for.

I guess the only way to know 100% that you got what you paid for is to send it back to GIA and see what it comes back as. Then if it comes back retaining the grade you will have to decide if you can still live with it knowing you paid 28K and knowing the marks are there. I think you can easily see them under a 10x loupe b/c you saw it with higher mag. and now it seems to be glaring at you with the 10x. It's like inclusions that know one sees until they are magnified higher and once they know there are there and where to look they can see them with lower mag or even the naked eye. I'd be interested to see how it fairs in a regrade, but I do think before you waste your time and $ (assuming you'd pay for it) you should decide if you'd want it even if it comes back an ex/ex b/c in your mind it's flawed. If it still is and ex/ex would you be happy and content with the stone as is?

 

[Mara]

Date: 12/15/2006 6:54:32 PM
Author: ladykemma
kenny, get it set and quit fussin' with it....

seriously already.

i mean what magnification are those pictures at? that's just crazy.

also...what does it really matter if it were to go back to GIA now and get a VG? do you plan to try to resell it or something? maybe after the asscher cut specs come out it would just be a VG anyway. certainly happened to a bunch of rounds. and i don't think they were repriced since if vendors already owned them, they flat out paid what they paid for them and that didn't change. cert grades don't mean a thing. if this stone sings to you and you love it, then keep it. miniscule things like this unless you are selling this diamond to reap back investment money are just that, miniscule. do you really think that the EX to VG is worth $5k? or even $1k? i doubt it. my stone as a round was a VG GIA and it was priced just like an EX GIA. but above and beyond that if you feel so wronged, talk to jonathan about it.

i know ps'ers are anal but man, i know i'd never be able to be any of the vendors dealing with us, because sometimes it's hard to see the forest through the trees, or in this instance, reason through the polish lines.

 

[kenny]

Mara, the problem is visible with any 10x loupe so the magnification of the pics is irrelevant.
They just do a good job of explaining what I'm talking about.

The price was based on the stone not having this.

 

[Dee*Jay]

Kenny, I had a sapphire recut earlier this year and ended up with polish lines on the table. I talked with the cutter and he offered to polish out the polish lines (that''s probably not the right terminology, but you know what I mean), however he told me why he stopped polishing when he did (there is still one chip in the stone that he considered to be a danger if he kept going) and any further polishing would be at my risk. I know this is not your scenario, but I just want to tell you that now I have a stone with polish lines on the table that if I tilt in *just the right way* in *just the right light* I can see with my naked eye. In the beginning it bothered me endlesly. I would find the right light and tilt the stone around and just get p*ssed off in general. But now, I wear my sapphire happily and I''m glad that it is as beautiful as it is.

I know we are all different, but honestly Kenny, sometimes things that bother me like crazy when I first get something or when I first notice them over time become less of an issue--or even a non-issue--over time.

I hope you come to a conclusion on the right thing to do with this stone and ultimately achive diamond nirvana.

 

[Mara]

Date: 12/16/2006 5:10:05 PM
Author: kenny
Mara, the problem is visible with any 10x loupe.

So the magnification of the pics is irrelevant.
They just do a good job of explaining what I'm talking about.

The price was based on the stone not having this.

Well so have you talked to Jonathan about the price then? We ARE on page three of this thread after all. You either do want to keep the stone or you don't. If you do want to keep it, you either get a wee discount for it having miniscule polish lines or you don't.

And just hope you never accidentally drop the ring on the ground like another PS'er just did, and it gets a big ole visible non-10x loupe-needing chip in it. (By the way I had no idea your eyes were 10x magnification!) Because that can surely happen and there's no vendor to complain to then. Just make sure you insure it if you do keep it.

 

[strmrdr]

something to consider..
im a little foggy today cuz of pain meds but if im remembering right its a F vvs2?

I did a PS search for F vvs2 and 2.20-2.30
and got this:
Neither one is as well cut as yours.

2.20 F VVS2 72.6% 67% GIA v thk no vg vg no 6.91x6.86x4.98 $13767 $30288SF
2.29 F VVS2 66.4% 67% GIA thn-thk sm vg gd no 7.60x7.41x4.92 $13176 $30173SF

The vg/vg deep and big table is more than you paid for a bigger kicken stone

 

[kenny]

Mara paying full price for a stone that arrives with a problem is one thing, but me causing a problem after the sale is quite another.

So your opinion is the polish lines are "miniscule" and the discount should be "wee".
Thanks, I'm listening to everyone here.

 

[kenny]

Thanks Storm.
Good data.

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 12/16/2006 3:36:42 PM
Author: kenny
I don''t know what the magnification is of the pics; besides it will be larger if you have a larger monitor.

Pretty sure size of monitor is irrelevant - rather the resolution the monitor is set for. A pixel is a pixel.... it''s more how big is the pixel. I have my two monitors set the same and things look the same as per photos.... one is a 19" flat and one is a 15" laptop.

 

[Mara]

I also basically thought what strm just showed (surprised you didn''t look that up yourself beforehand kenny, especially when questioning value). as i noted already, my stone was GIA VG and priced EXACTLY THE SAME if not MORE than many similar GIA EX''s out there on the market and from other PS vendors. vendors price what they want to and people pay what they want to for the stones. so as to what the miniscule polish lines are worth in terms of discount, well squeaky wheel may get you more, but i think the qualification is ''wee''.

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 12/16/2006 5:11:33 PM
Author: Dee*Jay
I have a stone with polish lines on the table that if I tilt in *just the right way* in *just the right light* I can see with my naked eye. In the beginning it bothered me endlesly. I would find the right light and tilt the stone around and just get p*ssed off in general. But now, I wear my sapphire happily and I''m glad that it is as beautiful as it is.

when my son was 2 he was attacked by a dog on the face and has some scars on his face from it.... they''ve faded a lot and are not super obvious and most of the time I look at him and I see my beautiful son and never notice them.... I might think wow I love his huge eyes or full lips or the shape of his face or smile.... but occasionally I remember the scars are there and I look and they GLARE at me and I flash back and feel so much anger and think how he is scarred and it will NEVER go away and they seem so big and obvious.... but your post just now made me realize that most of the time when I notice them it''s because I''m *LOOKING* for them. *anything* and even people seem worse under magnification. It''s important to look at the essence of things - and love.

Kenny - I get the sense that you admire this stone, but I don''t get a sense that you love it. You''ve never seemed over the moon so much as this is an acquisition. The difference between price, really, for those tiny lines that you''ll never see with your eyes when it is set is probably not much different than the price of having it reevaluated by GIA.

In your own soul searching regarding this - what is it that you want? A reason to keep it? Or a reason to part with it?

 

[kenny]

So wait a minute.
You guys are saying if I got, what at first glance appears to be, a good price I should not expect it to match the GIA report?

The price was what the price was.
(BTW I never did any price checking when I bought this or since.)
I assume since Internet prices are transparent then the prices on PS vendor sites must be good and close to being whatever the market will bear.
I just called up and bought it.

 

[pyramid]

Either you need to send the stone to GIA and pay the price for a new certificate or send the stone back to Jonathan, you do not love this stone and it cannot magically appear perfect in the morning, you have to accept that. I don't think people are saying the stone should not match the GIA report, you are trying to argue with us instead of face the fact you do not love this stone as it is not perfect enough for you. It is a good price and the difference in price is miniscule people are saying from VG to EX and even so with the cost of the re-certification OR the cost of buying another diamond of lesser proportions you would be out of pocket. Did you get the stone at the price it would have been when certificated (no answer required) or was the price increased when the increases happened. Would Jonathan tell you that? It SHOULD match the GIA report but THIS ONE doesn't it was chipped, it has been repaired, the width measurement may even be a fraction of a millimeter off now. It did match the report when it was certificated but it was unfortunately damaged. I'll bet Jonathan won't want to repolish stones for customers anymore.

 

[Dee*Jay]

Editing my post: Is the issue about both price AND imperfection or has it just become about price? What I'm trying to ask is if the price were reduced by some "acceptable" amount to compensate for VG vs. EX would that be enough, or is the fact that there are polish lines still an issue too?

(I'm afraid I'm not saying/asking this very well, but I think you understand what I mean.)

 

[kenny]

I'm not sure I follow the logic of thinking of it was first about perfection but now it is about price.
It is about I paid for the condition in the GIA report but received something less.

Every diamond buyer pays a price for a certain level of perfection, so I guess you could say it is about both.

If I had to have absolute perfection I would have waited forever for a D IF.

 

[pyramid]

I think this is highlighting the point that we should have diamonds appraised by an independent appraiser before purchasing. If you were told it was damaged say by Rockdoc or Richard Sherwood or Oldminer or Denver Appraiser before you saw it, would you have bought it?

 

[Cehrabehra]

Sara's sense of humor has been self-edited but under slight duress as it was quite funny!!!!!

 

[decodelighted]

The price of ANYTHING is what the market will bear ... I''m pretty sure, after seeing the "comps" Storm pulled up that GOG would not "lose" money by getting this stone back & into it''s inventory. As it happens ... they could arguably charge MORE than they charged Kenny DESPITE the "wee" polish lines. Even after re-grading by the GIA, if they so chose.

You can go round & round & shout from every rooftop about how WRONG it is that you THOUGHT you were getting ONE THING but you GOT ANOTHER .... but, ultimately, YOU CAN''T CHANGE THE PAST. You have to deal with stuff THAT IS. That''s why "should" is such a ridiculous word. The vendor has offered to repolish the stone or accept a return. If you don''t like either of those options ... ball is in your court.

This is the single unluckiest stone in Pscope history!