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G vs. F color - how easy to see the difference? and 2 ct and 2 ct shy.

F

firebird

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 6, 2010
Messages
28
First of all, Hello! :-) I'm new to PS and have been lurking for the past week or so after having dealt with a stressful experience with a diamond my husband bought me earlier this week. It was beautiful and close to, but just exactly not what hubby wanted to get me as we found out after getting an independent appraisal on the loose diamond and so now I'm online trying to find out as much as I can so that he can stress a little less!! Anyway, this community has been extremely helpful so far and I'm so happy to have found it!

I am still pretty new to all this and know very little about diamonds, so I wanted to ask about color. My husband wants to go with a 2 ct, VS1+, F color diamond with an ideal cut. I want a diamond that looks great, sparkles like mad, and that I won't be scared to wear (meaning, less than $30k! Much less if possible.) I've done a few online searches using some of the PS listed vendors and am seeing a lot more options in 2 ct shy and g color diamonds. But hubby does NOT want a G color diamond. He will only go for F or higher, because he thinks an F will just look much better. Also, he wants to try and get a 2 ct or higher and stay away from the 1.8's 1.92's and etc.

I was told previously by an appraiser that the average person shouldn't be able to tell the difference between two color grades that are only one grade apart, and that if there is a difference, it probably means the stons are TWO grades apart. Is this true? The part of that that doesn't make sense to me is the fact that the same appraiser told me that when appraising a stone, if the stone falls between, say, an H and an I, he would grade it at an H. Following this same logic, if a stone fell between a G and an H, wouldn't that stone be considered a G, but still close to an H, and thus the average person would be able to spot the difference between that and an F stone?
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My other question is, I've been looking at measurements for different ideal cut 1.8-2.3 ct diamonds and am noticing a range of measurements for the table. In a few cases, I've found that 1.9's actually have a larger table than the 2.01's. Does this mean that one or the other might just be a little LESS ideally cut? Or... what?
 
Have you seen and compared F and G colors in person? That might help you decide on the color. Also, it''s up to you and your husband if you want to go above the 2 carat mark...in my opinion a 1.9 will look great (and big!) but it''s really up to you and your budget. Again it might be helpful to see some in person to compare the size difference. Good luck finding the perfect one! Is this for an anniversary?
 
This video might be useful. http://vimeo.com/3288695

Note only the difference in color not the exact color as that depends on your monitor too. Color grading is down from the side, so the color is more noticeable when viewed from the side. Most people will not be able to tell the difference between the color of the stone once mounted. Even trained appraisers need the stone to be unmounted to correctly grade the stone and even then grading off by 1 grade is common and acceptable.

The grade are the minimum color a stone is, so a stone can be a high G, near F, but still a G.

Assuming you are looking at round brilliant cuts.

Depends on who says it is Ideal/Ex cut. AGS gives the Ideal cut grade, GIA uses Ex cut grade as their highest grade. Vendors generally has their own grade which may or may not have any relation to lab grade.

What do you mean by table? Table is given as a % of the diameter of the round. So larger table means nothing. If you are saying the diameter of a lighter weight stone is larger than a heavier weight stone, it is possible. Weight is a 3D measurement while diameter is 1D. There are different proportions, angles that can result in different diameter for the same weight.

Use the cut adviser to weed out the less than well cut stone. Score less than 2 and then request an idealscope image from the vendor.
https://www.pricescope.com/cutadviser.asp
 
The average consumer/person can not tell the difference between 2 grades of colors (IMO) when looking at a stone. Now if you set them
side by side you probably can but by just looking at one diamond - no (some posters on PS are not average
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.)

A really well cut stone shows up very white (because all the angles work well together to reflect the light back) vs a badly cut stone where the
light disappears out the sides and bottoms (looks dull).

I dont think you can compare the logic of what color a consumer may see with how an appraiser decides on color. Maybe I'm not getting
the question you are asking?

There are a set of guidelines that we toss around when looking for round diamonds...(I have copied these from other locations). Some
peoples tend to be a little different. You can also use the hca to help eliminate stones.

http://www.pricescope.com/cutadviser.asp

Specs
depth 60-62%
table 54-57%
crown angle 34-35 degrees
pavilion angle 40.6 - 41 degrees

polish and symmetry - very good and above

You can also use the Cut quality seach to help you locate well cut stones.
http://www.pricescope.com/sift.aspx

EDIT - a good bang for your buck range is G/H VS or eye-clean SI. You really shouldnt see a big difference in a 1.9 vs 2.0. Maybe you
could kind of sort of tell a difference if they are side by side.
 
F is super close to G, so don't waste your money on an F.
But G is super close to H so don't waste your money on a G.
But H is super close to I so don't waste your money on an H... and so on.

Just go out and see the colors for yourself and decide which is worth the money to you.
Knowing what my comfort zone is does not help you.
You may not even share the comfort zone of the majority.
 
--Oops! I apparently type too slow and posted this after a few other people responded (you guys are FAST!) --

To answer your question, slg, my husband's military and he wasn't happy with the diamond he proposed with, but he did it at the time anyway because we wanted to get married before he deployed on a particularly ... scary... deployment. He says now that he can afford the ring he wanted to get me, he's going all out... which is why I'm trying to tug on the reins a little to keep him from going too crazy with the price.

I guess you guys are right that I need to find a place that will actually show me loose stones with various color and sizes, etc to see what I like. My problem has been that in the area where my husband and I have been searching, many of the stores won't show us loose diamonds and instead are showing us already-set diamonds. The store my husband ultimately bought from and then returned the stone to showed us loose diamonds, but they were EGL certified. The stone we got was a VVS2 ideal cut "F" color according to EGL and got appraised at a VVS2 ideal cut H-I color. I still found the stone beautiful but my husband was not happy with it, just because he wanted to get me an F, and nothing but an F. I guess I'd like some personal opinions so I can try to convince him to go with a G and save us a couple thou. Maybe we could take a trip with the leftover money ;-)

We will be in the DC area this weekend, though, so perhaps we'll have more luck there since there are more options.
 
Thanks for the link to the cut adviser, everyone! I didn''t see that before. Very, very useful.
 
Please do not consider a diamond without a GIA or AGS report.

Other labs have softer grading.
This explains why an EGL "G VS2" (notice the quotes) is so much cheaper than a GIA G VS2.
That EGL "G VS2" is NOT a G VS2 per GIA standards.
GIA would probably grade it H or I, SI1 or SI2.

This uncertainly makes it impossible to know what an EGL diamonds really is worth.
I am disgusted by this and I wish the government would regulate this industry.
Diamonds are expensive so to be more sure of what you are buying only consider stones graded by GIA or AGS.
 
Go to Jareds and ask to see some of their stones in the Peerless line. These are well cut stones. Remember, when you have the ring on your
finger, there wont be a D or F sitting next to it to compare with. Evaluate the colors on their own before sitting them next to each other.

Have fun shopping in DC!

EDIT - I'm going to post a few diamonds for you to look at (to give you some ideas)

http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamond/diamond-detail/?product_id=AGS-1040397620032 (1.8 for less than $15k H/SI1)
http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamond/diamond-detail/?product_id=AGS-1040399230006 (2.0 for $23k G/SI1)
http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/6123/ (1.8 G/Vs2 $20K - may have some very slight light Leakage?)
http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/6980/ (1.8 G/SI1 $16.2k)
http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-2231135.htm (1.75 G/VS1 around $20k)

EDIT (again) - couldnt really find anything in the 1.9 range in the lower price range.
 
I am glad your husband made it back safely and now he is buying you the diamond he always wanted to!
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It''s really up to you and your husband what is comfortable for your budget. If you can''t notice a difference between 1.9 carat G VS2 and 2.0 carat F VVS1 then I would go with the G because you could probably use that money towards something else (like a vacation!)

There are some good videos on color but it is probably best if you can compare them in person so you can see what looks good to your eyes

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Kenny, thanks for your response, and I agree with you that the practice is disgusting and needs to be more heavily regulated! I told the jeweler, who was in disbelief about the independent appraisal I had gotten, that I had found posts on Pricescope about EGL Israel reports regularly being "off" by a few color grades and sometimes clarity grades. I want to believe he was being honest with me but it's hard to believe someone in the jewelry business could be so ignorant without willfully turning a blind eye to it. In any case, we are ONLY looking at GIA and AGS graded diamonds now, and using online vendors we found here on PS.

Thanks for the suggestions Tyty!! and thank you slg, we are so happy he's back safe, and so happy to be together again!! I am really hoping this shopping adventure is more productive than the ones we've tried to do nearer where we live because in the past I've just ended up frustrated, overwhelmed, and tired (and just wanting to keep my ring I have now and save the $30k for something else!)
 
James Allen has an office just outside of DC. If you find something from them, you can make an appointment with them to see the stones there.
 
Tyty, how can you tell about the light leakage on the 1.81 G VS2?? is that the lighter red in the image of the arrows? And what is desirable for the Aset image? What should I be seeing ideally, or looking for? I am guessing this is somewhere on Pricescope... :-) I think I tried to make sense of an Aset image before based on a description on some website but I was left more confused than enlightened.
 
Thanks, Stone cold! I will definitely try to stop by the James Allen office. I did a quick search on their site and they''ve got plenty for me to look at.
 
I just called James Allen and they told me they don't do showings in the Frederick, MD office, only the New York office. :-T

Wow, great finds, Stone Cold. Looks like I'll get WAY more diamond for the buck if we go with a G color. I'll have to show these to DH.
 
Huh... They used to. Sorry about that.

EDT:
Maybe tell them you are interested in their in-house H&A stone, which is a large purchase, they might make an exception.
 
Date: 5/6/2010 7:20:23 PM
Author: firebird
Kenny, thanks for your response, and I agree with you that the practice is disgusting and needs to be more heavily regulated! I told the jeweler, who was in disbelief about the independent appraisal I had gotten, that I had found posts on Pricescope about EGL Israel reports regularly being 'off' by a few color grades and sometimes clarity grades. I want to believe he was being honest with me but it's hard to believe someone in the jewelry business could be so ignorant without willfully turning a blind eye to it. In any case, we are ONLY looking at GIA and AGS graded diamonds now, and using online vendors we found here on PS.
Click to expand...

There are different kinds of customers.
Some insist one the cold hard truth.
Others want the fantasy of the "great deal too good to be true, the $4,000 F VS1 1-carat".

Off labs appeal to this deal-seeking demographic.
Perhaps they find the truth (that their great deal EGL F VS1 is actually GIA H SI2) disgusting.

I wouldn't be too hard on that jeweler.
She has to compete and sell diamonds to both the people who can want the truth and the ones who live in fantasyland.

When the jeweler found out you knew better she had to switch gears.
I'm not sure this is dishonest.

Still, I do wish the government would force the flakey labs to get in line with AGS/GIA.
 
No worries, Stone Cold. I''m sure DC will have a lot more options than where I live, so I plan to look at as many G color VS2''s and F color VS2''s as possible to see how I (and DH) like them.

Kenny, you''re probably right, and I''m not angry with the jeweler. We should have done more research on the EGL Israel cert before putting the credit card on the table...It was stupid to take the jewelers word for it. When we asked whether it was comparable to a GIA or AGS cert, he adamantly said yes yes yes of course. In fact he discouraged us from getting it independently appraised and we kind of had to strong-arm him to convince him that that is what we wanted to do. But that''s a whole different story, and entirely expected, from the stories I''m reading online. Live and learn I guess... :-) At least he refunded us our money, so we''re right back where we started before that little mini situation.
 
You are so fortunate to get your money back.

Many come her after overpaying for junk only to find they are stuck with it.
 
Can I ask where you live? There might be a PS vendor or some reputable jeweler near you?
 
Date: 5/6/2010 7:26:55 PM
Author: firebird
Tyty, how can you tell about the light leakage on the 1.81 G VS2?? is that the lighter red in the image of the arrows? And what is desirable for the Aset image? What should I be seeing ideally, or looking for? I am guessing this is somewhere on Pricescope... :-) I think I tried to make sense of an Aset image before based on a description on some website but I was left more confused than enlightened.
Click to expand...

Here is a chart that should help you. However, they can differ depending on the lighting situation where they are taken. Best bet is to post
them here and ask for opinions on them. (FYI - some light leakage is controlled and some we see with an ideal scope may not be visible with
the eye in real life.)

http://www.ideal-scope.com/1.using_reference_chart.asp
 
Kenny, I do feel fortunate, but please don't get me wrong.. the stone was gorgeous, and far from a piece of junk... Even our appraiser said that the stone was beautiful. It was just that we had overpaid for what we actually ended up with (compared to what we could get in a GIA cert with wholesalers online).

Stone cold, I did do a search all over PS but couldn't find anything...I don't mind shopping in DC because I'll be there for this and the next weekend and won't have time during the week...I'd prefer to know if there are any other PS vendors near DC! I'll do my research using the list of vendors, but please do let me know if there are any that you have personally dealt with in DC and have had a good experience with!! It would be awesome to get the online-wholesaler price and still be able to actually walk into a place and touch and see diamonds in real life.

Thanks for the link, tyty! [edit] just took a look and this is perfect! just what I need to get an overview without overloading my brain with more new info. Thanks so much.
 
What do y''all think of this one? and the value of it? Just browsing around and trying to get an idea of what I should be looking for, and this popped up at me.

http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamond/diamond-detail/?product_id=AGS-1040399230008

Product ID: AGS-1040399230008
Shape: Round
Report: AGS
Carat: 2.053
Color: G
Clarity: VS2
Measurements: 8.15x8.16x5.04
Lab Cut Grade: Ideal
Light Performance: Ideal
Polish: Ideal
Symmetry: Ideal
Table %: 56.2
Depth %: 61.8
Crown %: 15.1
Crown Angle: 34.8
Star %: 55.0
Pav Angle: 40.9
Pavillion %: 43.3
Lower Girdle %: 76.0
Girdle Min-Max %: 1.5-3.6
Girdle: Thin to Medium Faceted
Culet: Pointed
Fluorescence: Negligible
Lab Comment: Additional clouds are not shown.

Wire Price: $29,100
 
Stone cold, I''m a little confused because it doesn''t look like infinity diamonds has a vendor near DC.. am I looking over something?
 
Date: 5/6/2010 9:34:58 PM
Author: firebird
Stone cold, I'm a little confused because it doesn't look like infinity diamonds has a vendor near DC.. am I looking over something?
Click to expand...

I am hopping there is one near your home town.

The BGD stone looks good.
 
Thanks Stone Cold! I have a question - I posted a separate post with a BG diamond and a Whiteflash H&A diamond after browsing through the pricescope diamonds but am not getting any responses (probably because I posted way too many the first time :p). The Whiteflash diamond scored a 1.1 on the HCA cut grade tool & the BG scored 1.8. I know anything under 2 is good, but wondering whether that means the whiteflash is going to have a tiny bit more brilliance than the BG because it''s a lower score? I''m only asking because the whiteflash diamond costs less than the BG diamond. The biggest difference between the two is the clarity.. VS1 vs. VS2, but the BG costs more. Would this make the Whiteflash a better value?
 
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