GIA grading of lab grown diamonds

[OoohShiny]

I hope to see a totally different grading system where companies compete for cut quality, color, brilliancy, creativity and whatever else the consumer would want to spend their money on rather than it’s D/IF diamond.

I hope we can see a form of grading that does this for both Mined and Man Made stones!

 

[Paraiba]

@Paraiba
Comparing natural diamonds and lab grown diamonds is like comparing an apple from a wild apple tree vs an apple from an apple orchard. What you're saying is "this apple is better because it grew randomly, that one is worse because someone decided to grow it." They are exactly the same. No jeweler can identify one from the other with any level of magnification. You can only tell using an infrared spectrometer to determine Ia, Ib, IIa, IIb, and even then it's still a guess because some natural diamonds can be the same type as lab grown.

I'm not entirely sure why you're in this sub if you have such a closed mind and incorrect understanding of lab grown diamonds. What is your background? Are you a professional in the diamond industry? It seems to me you're either pushing the narrative because you stand to lose business, or because you've been brainwashed.

Not in the trade at all. If you read my initial post I’m just a consumer who stumble across this forum while doing research when I was on the market for 2 cttw. diamond stud earrings for my spouse. As noted to Oooh Shiny... we agree to disagree. I read peoples arguments and have done my own research, but to me MMD and Mined Diamonds can not be graded the same way as one can be manipulated (color/clarity) and the other you can’t (nature dictates). Thank you for your opinion.

 

[Paraiba]

Well, if you’re going to factor “the allure, mystery, and intrigue” and perceived rarity of mined diamonds into what should be an OBJECTIVE grading scale of diamonds, then perhaps you should also factor human rights abuses, environmental destruction and other issues into the grading scale.

I did do my research on both MMD and Mined Diamond before deciding to purchase. Current information noted pros and cons on both side, but ultimately I decided what I think is best for me. All consumers needs to do their own research and decide for themselves what they think is right for them. Thank you for your opinion.

 

[Batgirl76]

Not in the trade at all. If you read my initial post I’m just a consumer who stumble across this forum while doing research when I was on the market for 2 cttw. diamond stud earrings for my spouse. As noted to Oooh Shiny... we agree to disagree. I read peoples arguments and have done my own research, but to me MMD and Mined Diamonds can not be graded the same way as one can be manipulated (color/clarity) and the other you can’t (nature dictates). Thank you for your opinion.

Wrong. Mined diamonds clarity is commonly manipulated:

Enhanced Diamonds: Types, Pros, Cons and More

Enhanced diamonds start as very included or low color diamonds and then undergo specific treatment for improving either their clarity or color.

www.diamonds.pro

 

[Batgirl76]

And color treated too:

Spiff Up Your Rings, Necklaces, and Earrings With Our Favorite Jewelry Cleaners

We researched the best jewelry cleaners to spiff up your finest pieces, including those enhanced with diamonds, gold, and silver.

www.thespruce.com

 

[Paraiba]

And color treated too:

Spiff Up Your Rings, Necklaces, and Earrings With Our Favorite Jewelry Cleaners

We researched the best jewelry cleaners to spiff up your finest pieces, including those enhanced with diamonds, gold, and silver.

www.thespruce.com

Then those are enhanced diamonds (not natural) which is not the topic of the discussion in terms of GIA Grading criteria (MMD vs Natural Mined Diamonds). In MMD the manipulation starts from the very beginning, factory worker controlling the growth chamber environment to produce the best clarity and adding/subtracting elements to produce the desired color.... not to mention selecting the material and seed crystals for best growth/yield result in just a few weeks. Again, thank you for your opinion.

 

[DoeEyes]

Then those are enhanced diamonds (not natural) which is not the topic of the discussion in terms of GIA Grading criteria (MMD vs Natural Mined Diamonds). In MMD the manipulation starts from the very beginning, factory worker controlling the growth chamber environment to produce the best clarity and adding/subtracting elements to produce the desired color.... not to mention selecting the material and seed crystals for best growth/yield result in just a few weeks. Again, thank you for your opinion.

I just don't understand why you'd come into an entire forum about lab grown diamond just to share how worthless you think they are. I don't go into RT and tell everyone how much money I think they're wasting and what a farse they've bought into believing dirt diamonds are somehow intrinsically better than lab diamonds even though they're literally exactly the same thing. So why are you doing that here?

 

[Paraiba]

I just don't understand why you'd come into an entire forum about lab grown diamond just to share how worthless you think they are. I don't go into RT and tell everyone how much money I think they're wasting and what a farse they've bought into believing dirt diamonds are somehow intrinsically better than lab diamonds even though they're literally exactly the same thing. So why are you doing that here?

I did not say that at all... The topic is the application of the GIA grading scale. As I noted, their is a market for both MMD and Natural Mined Diamond.. But in my opinion, one can NOT just simply repurpose and use a grading scale system that was created solely for Natural Mined Diamonds during the time when the existence of MMD was just a dream. Their are certain rarity factors/variables that cannot just be applied. It’s like grading/comparing 2 chicken to note which has the best meat to bone ratio, one caught in the wild, compared to a farm raised and genetically engineered one. The farm raised will 99% of the time have more meat than the wild... It’s only on rare occasions that one can catch a wild chicken that has more meat in comparison... Anyway, I think their needs to be a specific grading scale created for MMD, as technically using the one designed/created for Mined Natural Diamond can be misleading in terms of certain factors... and can make it easy for dishonest people to manipulate unsuspecting customers. Reputable companies (i.e. GIA, etc.) has the ethical responsibility to protect consumers like myself and others. Thank you for your opinion.

 

[DoeEyes]

The farm raised will 99% of the time have more meat than the wild... It’s only on rare occasions that one can catch a wild chicken that has more meat in comparison...

So MMD should have its own grading scale because MMD are better and it's not fair? If they used the same scale then people would realize MMD are 99% of the time better than mined, and cheaper? I see no ethical issue, you won't be tricked into buying an MMD, the certificate would be clear that they are lab grown, which means absolutely nothing in the quality of the diamond. So what's the real issue? Natural diamonds will be devalued, which they should? Everyone who's been spending decades collecting mined diamonds and counting on them maintaining value will suddenly see their connection decreasing in value? Boo hoo. Thank you for your opinion.

 

[lovedogs]

Then those are enhanced diamonds (not natural) which is not the topic of the discussion in terms of GIA Grading criteria (MMD vs Natural Mined Diamonds). In MMD the manipulation starts from the very beginning, factory worker controlling the growth chamber environment to produce the best clarity and adding/subtracting elements to produce the desired color.... not to mention selecting the material and seed crystals for best growth/yield result in just a few weeks. Again, thank you for your opinion.

The bold isn't accurate. One of the issues with clarity enhanced stones is that they ARE natural, which can lead to people being fooled into buying clarity enhanced stones which aren't stable, and which will look like trash in a few years.

The idea that MMDs and earth grown stones can't be graded the same way makes no sense. They should be able to have the same grading scale, but there should be a note on the certificate saying "lab grown", like there is now with IGI/GCAL, etc.

 

[Paraiba]

So MMD should have its own grading scale because MMD are better and it's not fair? If they used the same scale then people would realize MMD are 99% of the time better than mined, and cheaper? I see no ethical issue, you won't be tricked into buying an MMD, the certificate would be clear that they are lab grown, which means absolutely nothing in the quality of the diamond. So what's the real issue? Natural diamonds will be devalued, which they should? Everyone who's been spending decades collecting mined diamonds and counting on them maintaining value will suddenly see their connection decreasing in value? Boo hoo. Thank you for your opinion.

The nature of things isn't fair at all, but that is life... Even though an alternative item has been created, most people will continue to desire and covet those that’s difficult to attain. The same way people would want to own a designer bag (i.e. LV, Chanel, etc.) vice one that’s mass produced from the same material and sold in Walmart. As I see it, with luxury items most if not all individuals who desires or own a diamond jewelry do so because of what they symbolize and the prestige that the gem provides them... which was created and developed through the years and continues. MMD will fill a certain market, but Mined Diamonds will continue to hold its own especially among true collectors. Thank you for your opinion.

 

[Paraiba]

The bold isn't accurate. One of the issues with clarity enhanced stones is that they ARE natural, which can lead to people being fooled into buying clarity enhanced stones which aren't stable, and which will look like trash in a few years.

The idea that MMDs and earth grown stones can't be graded the same way makes no sense. They should be able to have the same grading scale, but there should be a note on the certificate saying "lab grown", like there is now with IGI/GCAL, etc.

Just like plastic surgery... what is natural? Anyway, thank you for the discussion and your opinion.

 

[denverappraiser]

Here are a few reasons for using a different grading system.

Natural diamonds have inclusions, for example, ‘naturals’, that don’t appear in synthetics. Mineral inclusions are another.

Synthetics have inclusions too, for example, metallic crystals, that don’t appear in naturals.

Treatment to modify color is a big deal in naturals and requires specific disclosure on the GIA documents. It has a big effect on price. It’s part of the manufacturing process for synthetics and does not require (or get) disclosure. They are nothing BUT treatment.

Synthetics have two decidedly different methods of manufacture. This is a clear gemological property that can, and usually does, appear on the lab documents. Natural stones do not. Yes, there are people who care.

Manufacturing methods have improved in the last few years. I2 is now nearly unheard of in a synthetic and I1 is rare. They’re standard fare in a natural. I-1 natural is sort of typical and I-2 is common. Go look at the mall. An I-1 synthetic is the absolute bottom of the barrel. A report that gives a grade without this context is ripe for deception.

With naturals, fluorescence is a big deal, especially if it’s strong to very strong. With synthetics, it’s not. They don’t fluoresce, so why have a scale for that at all?

 

[DoeEyes]

Even though an alternative item has been created, most people will continue to desire and covet those that’s difficult to attain. The same way people would want to own a designer bag (i.e. LV, Chanel, etc.) vice one that’s mass produced from the same material and sold in Walmart.

I disagree. If you tell me I can have this Chanel purse for $2k or an identical one from Walmart for $50, there's no world where I waste $1950 just to have a brand name. Especially if I can get a certificate from a well trusted third party confirming they are the same quality. I think most millennials and younger feel this way. There is still and will always be a population who wants the brand name for the higher cost and will pay it, I'm not arguing that. But you are wrong assuming that MOST people want that. I'm curious what your age and income level is to think that way.

MMD will fill a certain market, but Mined Diamonds will continue to hold its own especially among true collectors. Thank you for your opinion.

Yes, so why not let the public know the truth about MMD and let them decide for themselves? As you say, there will always be a population who will never see MMD as equal to mined, so having grading reports for MMD won't affect them at all. They just won't look at any MMD. But for the huge population who just want A Diamond and don't care at all whether it was plucked from the earth or grown in a lab, give them the knowledge they need to make a good choice.

 

[Paraiba]

I disagree. If you tell me I can have this Chanel purse for $2k or an identical one from Walmart for $50, there's no world where I waste $1950 just to have a brand name. Especially if I can get a certificate from a well trusted third party confirming they are the same quality. I think most millennials and younger feel this way. There is still and will always be a population who wants the brand name for the higher cost and will pay it, I'm not arguing that. But you are wrong assuming that MOST people want that. I'm curious what your age and income level is to think that way.



Yes, so why not let the public know the truth about MMD and let them decide for themselves? As you say, there will always be a population who will never see MMD as equal to mined, so having grading reports for MMD won't affect them at all. They just won't look at any MMD. But for the huge population who just want A Diamond and don't care at all whether it was plucked from the earth or grown in a lab, give them the knowledge they need to make a good choice.

We agree to disagree... Please see educational post above by denverappraiser. Thank you for the discussion and your opinion.

 

[denverappraiser]

If you tell me I can have this Chanel purse for $2k or an identical one from Walmart for $50, there's no world where I waste $1950 just to have a brand name.

I think Chanel would argue that they're NOT the same quality and that your "trusted 3rd party" is not an acceptable substitute for your trust in Chanel. The knockoff bag is not identical. Buy what you like, but trust in this is at the heart of what Chanel sells. Without it, they're history.

 

[DoeEyes]

I think Chanel would argue that they're NOT the same quality and that your "trusted 3rd party" is not an acceptable substitute for your trust in Chanel. The knockoff bag is not identical. Buy what you like, but trust in this is at the heart of what Chanel sells. Without it, they're history.

But that's not what's happening here. There are plenty of shitty natural diamonds out there. It's not "mined diamonds are all Chanel and lab diamonds are all Walmart brand." GIA grading lets you see which mined diamonds are Chanel and which ones are Walmart store brand, and you can then pay accordingly since you know what's what because GIA determined it and you trust them. You bring up good points in your post about the differences between mined and lab diamonds, but for instance I don't see why lab diamonds shouldn't be graded on the same clarity scale as mined just because there are practically no lab diamonds with SI clarity and there are lots of mined diamonds at that level. So what? Let the public see that lab diamonds 99% of the time have better clarity than mined and are cheaper.

So I guess I feel like, sure, alter the grading scale for lab diamonds for certain things (if lab diamonds never gave flouresce then don't include that, for instance) but there's no reason to change the cut and clarity scales just because lab diamonds are better. Let them all be on the higher end of the existing scale. I want to look at a lab diamond report and know that if it says G VVS excellent cut, it's exactly the same as a G VVS excellent cut mined diamond, because that's the only way to accurately compare price for what is an identical product.

 

[Paraiba]

But there's no reason to change the cut and clarity scales just because lab diamonds are better. Let them all be on the higher end of the existing scale. I want to look at a lab diamond report and know that if it says G VVS excellent cut, it's exactly the same as a G VVS excellent cut mined diamond, because that's the only way to accurately compare price for what is an identical product.

“There are plenty of shitty natural diamonds out there”... which is the point. It’s rare to get Mined Diamonds that has the high color and clarity grading. Cut can be applied to both MMD and Mined Diamond as this is due to the skill of the cutter. Color and clarity grading on the other hand, can’t be applied the same way as Mined Diamonds has that rarity factor (rare/difficult to get a high color and clarity material from Mother Nature). Hence, higher price for better color and clarity Mined Diamonds. Regarding MMD, as you noted, they can/are mass produced with high color and clarity (NO rarity factor). So what you noted: “I want to look at a lab diamond report and know that if it says G VVS excellent cut, it's exactly the same as a G VVS excellent cut mined diamond, because that's the only way to accurately compare price for what is an identical product.”.... Wishful thinking but that “rarity factor“ is one of the variables that dictates price, so if it’s NOT there one can’t expect to apply the same price or grading. Thank you for the discussion.

 

[DoeEyes]

“There are plenty of shitty natural diamonds out there”... which is the point. It’s rare to get Mined Diamonds that has the high color and clarity grading. Cut can be applied to both MMD and Mined Diamond as this is due to the skill of the cutter. Color and clarity grading on the other hand, can’t be applied the same way as Mined Diamonds has that rarity factor (rare/difficult to get a high color and clarity material from Mother Nature). Hence, higher price for better color and clarity Mined Diamonds. Regarding MMD, as you noted, they can/are mass produced with high color and clarity (NO rarity factor). So what you noted: “I want to look at a lab diamond report and know that if it says G VVS excellent cut, it's exactly the same as a G VVS excellent cut mined diamond, because that's the only way to accurately compare price for what is an identical product.”.... Wishful thinking but that “rarity factor“ is one of the variables that dictates price, so if it’s NOT there one can’t expect to apply the same price or grading. Thank you for the discussion.

Yes, let the rarity factor dictate price. Let consumers decide if it's worth however much more. Let them see the price difference and decide.

 

[denverappraiser]

But rarity is not what dictates prices, especially in the case of synthetics. The familiar clarity grading system was designed by and for the benefit of the people selling diamonds. That’s why fully half the scale involves visibly identical stones. This was a bit nutty to start with, but with synthetics it’s gone bananas. It’s more like 90%. It is simply not correct to say that what people want is to use this to compare natural natural to synthetic. They want to compare synthetics with each other. They want the best stone for the best value. What good is an 11 step scale where the top 7 grades are identical and the bottom 2 are non-existent?

 

[denverappraiser]

F, IF, VVS1, VVS2, VS1, VS2, SI1, SI2, I1, I2, I3, is the GIA clarity scale. With a few possible outliers, F-SI1 will all be visibly the same. I2&I3 are commercially unavailable (in synthetics) and I1 is hard to find for customers and hard to sell for dealers. They exist if you try but they're not generally part of the offerings you'll see.

A perfectly valid alternative approach is the one from Lightbox. They say everything is 'eye clean', and provides no grade beyond that. That's not part of the GIA scale at all but it's somewhere near SI1 and every stone I've seen from them has held up that standard. They won't say if it's IF or SI1 or anything between, and they won't pay for a report where someone else says it. Any Lightbox with a GIA report got it aftermarket. You can buy a lab inspection if you want but they're not paying for it. They think customers are more interested in the savings than in this grade. I suspect they're right.

 

[Paraiba]

F, IF, VVS1, VVS2, VS1, VS2, SI1, SI2, I1, I2, I3, is the GIA clarity scale. With a few possible outliers, F-SI1 will all be visibly the same. I2&I3 are commercially unavailable (in synthetics) and I1 is hard to find for customers and hard to sell for dealers. They exist if you try but they're not generally part of the offerings you'll see.

A perfectly valid alternative approach is the one from Lightbox. They say everything is 'eye clean', and provides no grade beyond that. That's not part of the GIA scale at all but it's somewhere near SI1 and every stone I've seen from them has held up that standard. They won't say if it's IF or SI1 or anything between, and they won't pay for a report where someone else says it. Any Lightbox with a GIA report got it aftermarket. You can buy a lab inspection if you want but they're not paying for it. They think customers are more interested in the savings than in this grade. I suspect they're right.

Thank you for the appraiser’s perspective and clarification to your other post/reply which you stated 7 identical and 2 non-existent out of 11.... Also, noted that diamond per se may not be that rare especially in comparison to other gems (i.e. Ruby, Sapphire, or Black Opal) as one can easily see that most if not all Jewelry Store in any state have approximately 70% or higher diamonds or diamond type items in their inventory... Then again, they may just be stocking what sells. Anyway, thank you for the very interesting and informative perspective on the matter.

 

[denverappraiser]

Ruby and sapphire are the same mineral and it’s considerably more common than diamond. That said, jewelers with sense want to stock things that sell for them. Of course. that has more to do with demand than rarity.

 

[Ada Diamonds CEO]

Hi! First post here, and I'm running the risk of correcting some regulars. Please let me know if I'm out of line!

GIA does grade lab diamonds on the exact same criteria as mined diamonds. After grading, they *remove* the high fidelity information from the report they return to the client. This is not a conspiracy, but clearly documented in multiple issues of GIA's publication and clearly explained by GIA researchers on their Youtube channel. Here's an in-depth piece I wrote with plenty of examples/sourcing:

GIA is Withholding Lab Diamond Grades from the Public. Why?

GIA is censoring gemological information from the public, redacting high-fidelity Color and Clarity information from lab diamond reports.

medium.com

AGS does not *currently* grade lab diamonds; however, they used to.

AGS Lab to Stop Grading Synthetics

<p>the american gem society grading lab will no longer issue reports for lab-grown diamonds, officials tell <em>jck</em>. </p>

www.jckonline.com

 

[Ilovecarbon]

Thank you @Ada Diamonds CEO for bringing us back to the original question, not that the rousing discussion in the middle wasn’t super fun to read.

When I first asked the question, I could not have imagined that the discussion would turn from “Are they” to “Should they” and I have just one tiny comment to add. Before I add it though, I’d like to preface it with I’m not for or against any one idea- I just have a bit of commentary. The average joe walking down the street probably does not attribute diamond grading to rarity, but more just ‘this is what attributes it has’. I realize by default that it does end up being that way for mined diamonds and conversely is not the case for lab grown.