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Date: 10/18/2007 10:38:55 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

That would be research using the same lighting and methodology that GIA used. Sergey, Yuri, Janak and I have already debunked that in the Australian Gemologist journal article, and we never had any response to out response to GIA''s letter to the editor.
(could somone please link to them in the journal -flat out like a lizard drinking just now)
Click to expand...

Hello Gary, if you are still glancing at this thread. I only ask you this because in some post you respond to certain steep deep diamonds of similar combinations as were discussed in this thread as "ick" and then in other post you take a lighter approach, such as the one I quoted previously.

I can def. understand that some organizations and people would be using certain faulty methodolies in regards to real life observations.

In regards to such research as those presented in the linked article, I can easily understand that the diamonds will only look as good as they did when under the GIA diamond doc.

However, I have a hard time imagining that those participants never observed the diamonds under non-diamond doc lighting. And if they had seen it under other lighting and were fairly well trained and competent gemologist wouldn''t they have taken note of any such significant changes in performance?

And then of course comes in the matter of surveys...why even give out surveys and collect data on something that is obvious to a well trained gemologist when viewing their merchandice under normal lighting conditions?

What I would really like to see is one of GOG''s fantastic videos capturing said differences, which they should be willing to supply given their claims in the article provided on their site? Anybody ever seen a link to any such video?


(and no, this is not about defending my position anymore, I would much rather seek out the truth and gather some good data than quibble and dibble with ignorant consumers like myself. So lets all take everyone''s recent advice and let any experts who feels so inclined to answer answer, otherwise my questions can just get washed over in a nice coating of dust)
 
Date: 10/21/2007 7:39:15 PM
Author: WorkingHardforSmallRewards


Hello Gary, if you are still glancing at this thread. I only ask you this because in some post you respond to certain steep deep diamonds of similar combinations as were discussed in this thread as ''ick'' and then in other post you take a lighter approach, such as the one I quoted previously.

I can def. understand that some organizations and people would be using certain faulty methodolies in regards to real life observations.

In regards to such research as those presented in the linked article, I can easily understand that the diamonds will only look as good as they did when under the GIA diamond doc.

However, I have a hard time imagining that those participants never observed the diamonds under non-diamond doc lighting. And if they had seen it under other lighting and were fairly well trained and competent gemologist wouldn''t they have taken note of any such significant changes in performance?

And then of course comes in the matter of surveys...why even give out surveys and collect data on something that is obvious to a well trained gemologist when viewing their merchandice under normal lighting conditions?

What I would really like to see is one of GOG''s fantastic videos capturing said differences, which they should be willing to supply given their claims in the article provided on their site? Anybody ever seen a link to any such video?


(and no, this is not about defending my position anymore, I would much rather seek out the truth and gather some good data than quibble and dibble with ignorant consumers like myself. So lets all take everyone''s recent advice and let any experts who feels so inclined to answer answer, otherwise my questions can just get washed over in a nice coating of dust)
Click to expand...
yikes don''t start that again, just do a search for the war over it.
Too many egos and prejudices got involved for it too ever be resolved.
There are some experts here that no matter what GIA did it would not be the right thing.
 
Date: 10/21/2007 10:35:34 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 10/21/2007 7:39:15 PM
Author: WorkingHardforSmallRewards


Hello Gary, if you are still glancing at this thread. I only ask you this because in some post you respond to certain steep deep diamonds of similar combinations as were discussed in this thread as ''ick'' and then in other post you take a lighter approach, such as the one I quoted previously.

I can def. understand that some organizations and people would be using certain faulty methodolies in regards to real life observations.

In regards to such research as those presented in the linked article, I can easily understand that the diamonds will only look as good as they did when under the GIA diamond doc.

However, I have a hard time imagining that those participants never observed the diamonds under non-diamond doc lighting. And if they had seen it under other lighting and were fairly well trained and competent gemologist wouldn''t they have taken note of any such significant changes in performance?

And then of course comes in the matter of surveys...why even give out surveys and collect data on something that is obvious to a well trained gemologist when viewing their merchandice under normal lighting conditions?

What I would really like to see is one of GOG''s fantastic videos capturing said differences, which they should be willing to supply given their claims in the article provided on their site? Anybody ever seen a link to any such video?


(and no, this is not about defending my position anymore, I would much rather seek out the truth and gather some good data than quibble and dibble with ignorant consumers like myself. So lets all take everyone''s recent advice and let any experts who feels so inclined to answer answer, otherwise my questions can just get washed over in a nice coating of dust)
Click to expand...
yikes don''t start that again, just do a search for the war over it.
Too many egos and prejudices got involved for it too ever be resolved.
There are some experts here that no matter what GIA did it would not be the right thing.
Click to expand...
Storm is probably right. GOG use the same light for their videa''s that GIA used that led them to favour steeper deeper diamond proportions than any other researchers found to be of the top quality. (I like even shallowe stones than most researchers because i see what happpens when they are dirty. )

GIA''s process was basically OK except they used a portable light box that shows how diamonds look under dealer lighting; but dealers use these lights to grade color and clarity. When they look at cut they hold them away from the close up light.
 
I decided to go back to this post, all in the same area.

The two loose stones they are looking at now and are serious about: Can you tell me which one is better?

Gia# 14909318
Carat Weight 2.01
Color Grade: E
Clarity Grade: VS2
Cut Grade: Excellent

Proportions:
Depth: 62.0%
Table: 58%
Crown Angle: 36 degrees
Pavilion Angle: 41 degrees
Pavilion Depth: 43 %
Star Length: 50%
Lower Half 80%
Girdle: Thin to Slightly Thick Faceted
Cutlet: None
$29,000.00

other one:
GIA #16171813
Carat Weight: 1.78
Color Grade: E
Clarity Grade: VS1
Cut Grade: Very Good

Proportions:
Depth: 61.1%
Table: 58%
Crown Angle: 33.5%
Crown Height: 14%
Pavilion Angle: 41.2%
Pavilion Depth: 43.5%
Star Length: 50%
Lower Half 75%
Girdle: Thin to Thick Faceted
$22,000.00
 
Drop to F-VS2 and they can do much better than that 2 carat stone - there are a couple of nice candidates 2.25-2.30 with AGSL reports listed on the PS vendor sites $30-31K.
 
#1 looks terrible.

#2 might have some potential....if you had the diameter measurements, that would help. I don''t think it''s A+ quality, but it looks like it might be B+.

As others pointed out, you could get a lot more for the money, but if these are the two options they are down to, I''d stick with #2.
 
Diameter Measurements I think are:
7.77 - 7.84 x 4.77 mm

Is that what you mean?
 
Yes, those are them.

It looks like the stone would rate as a 2A on the AGA cut Charts (http://www.gemappraisers.com/oldcutgraderules.asp)


Shape: Round
Table % 62.0% Grade: 2A
Crown Angle 33.5° Grade: 1B
Crown Height % 14.0% Grade: 1B
Pavilion Depth % 43.5% Grade: 1B
Girdle Thickness Thin to Thick Grade: 2B
Total Depth % 61.00% Grade: 1A
Polish Excellent / Very Good Grade: 1A * Not a primary determining factor.
Symmetry Excellent / Very Good Grade: 1A * Not a primary determining factor.

Final Grade: 2A

In a nutshell: Wouldn''t be an ''ideal'' cut, but it would be better than average.

I still think you could do better for the money, but I realize that they feel more comfortable with certain stores and certain geography, and this might be the in-between compromise.

Carolyn, if they to swing for a better cut, here''s what would get them a top-flight stone:

Total depth: 58.7 - 62.3
Table: 53-58
Crown angle: 34.0 - 34.7
Crown height% 16.3 - 14.3%
Pavilion Depth %: 42.8 - 43.2%
Girdle: Thin-medium OR medium-slightly thick
 
Date: 10/26/2007 7:51:17 PM
Author: Carolynw
Diameter Measurements I think are:
7.77 - 7.84 x 4.77 mm

Is that what you mean?
Click to expand...
Dear Carolynw,
Cut to the chase, spend $25 plus shipping and buy an ideal-scope and $5 for a CZ from my site below.
Print out the reference chart and buy a beautiful diamond.
You will get the scope in a few days.
And we will all relax.
If $25 is a problem then email me.
 
Date: 10/21/2007 10:35:34 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 10/21/2007 7:39:15 PM
Author: WorkingHardforSmallRewards


Hello Gary, if you are still glancing at this thread. I only ask you this because in some post you respond to certain steep deep diamonds .........
I would much rather seek out the truth
Click to expand...
yikes don''t start that again, just do a search for the war over it.
Too many egos and prejudices got involved for it too ever be resolved.
There are some experts here that no matter what GIA did it would not be the right thing.
Click to expand...
When you discover an immutable truth, please share it with us.
 
I think she found her stone at ERD. She started a new thread here.

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/loose-stone-selection-new-york-city.71317/ Hope that helps.
9.gif
 
Gary, Ill buy the ideal scope then, but I risk possibly losing the 1.78 stone mentioned above.
They indicated they want us to buy by Monday, they always seem to put these deadlines
on them, kind of frustrating, because we see one and then we have to buy next day or lose it
to someone else, supposively.
Should they not get that one, and just wait and still search. It seems when you go, they
have limited selections of ideals, is it just that they are not showing us them?
I mean, i get what your saying, they do want the best cut, but some people say its
going to far and this 1.78 is a good one to buy, what do you think?
 
As a professional 20,000 miles away Carolynw I have insufficient information to make a judgement.

But as a well seasoned person, the idea that a salesman in a store who recomends a vendor who is not associated with his employer..............................
And the vendor is in a shark pool called 47th Street?

Amnd they are wholesalers??????????? Who sell to the public???????????
 
There''s a tough independent appraiser named David Wolf there in the diamond district that many folks here have used - look under "resources" at the top of the page. He has tools like the ideal scope and could show you how to use it while discussing the relative merits of different stones. Have you thought about having this one sent to him along with the three best examples in a similar size from ERD WF and GOG? The only cost to you is shipping and the appraiser''s time, probably $500 total. You''d get an expert''s completely independent opinion and a consistent viewing environment.
 
I had my stone from Whiteflash shipped to David Wolf for appraisal before we bought it. Leslie found it for me and after speaking at length with Brian Gavin I decided it was worth seeing. David Wolf said the stone was as described and that it was beautiful. Since I was buying the setting from Whiteflash, I had him ship it back to them. I recently had him reappraise it because prices on large stones had gone up and was surprised to find that it is now worth so much more than it was less than three years ago.

I was wondering if you ever saw the larger F VS2 from ERD that Elmo mentioned. I do not know enough about stones to comment on the stone you are considering except that, unless your SIL is very color sensitive, she may not need E color and can get a larger stone at the price. Also, she could surely drop to VS2 or even an eye clean SI.

However, if she really loves this stone and does not want to look any further, taking it to David Wolf for appraisal might be the best way to go.
 
Garry, I wish you were hear to help us. I think your correct, 47th Street is crazy and very intimidating.
Maybe your right, that this wholeseller, is not really that, but or might be, but does sell to the public
and really I like your idea of going to the guy around there that you recommended to view and
inspect. However, if I ask them that, do you think they will go for that, I mean, will the wholeseller
basically let me take the diamond down the street without giving him the cash he wants, he doesn''t
take credit cards. Also, will he let me return it if indeed it''s not what is stated, and really not such
a good stone. I bet not, I bet when you buy from a wholeseller, that''s it.
He didn''t mention any return policy, just wanted cash.
Again, we don''t care that we have to wait longer for the diamond, we just wanted an ideal
that is worth the $ and is beautiful. WE are trusting people, and sometimes yeah your right
get fooled in the 47th street area. ERD was nice, but he was very busy, I showed up without
much notice, he didn''t have a lot of time for me. I''m thinking of going back.
 
Date: 10/27/2007 10:00:59 AM
Author: Carolynw
Garry, I wish you were hear to help us. I think your correct, 47th Street is crazy and very intimidating.
Maybe your right, that this wholeseller, is not really that, but or might be, but does sell to the public
and really I like your idea of going to the guy around there that you recommended to view and
inspect. However, if I ask them that, do you think they will go for that, I mean, will the wholeseller
basically let me take the diamond down the street without giving him the cash he wants, he doesn''t
take credit cards. Also, will he let me return it if indeed it''s not what is stated, and really not such
a good stone. I bet not, I bet when you buy from a wholeseller, that''s it.
He didn''t mention any return policy, just wanted cash.
Again, we don''t care that we have to wait longer for the diamond, we just wanted an ideal
that is worth the $ and is beautiful. WE are trusting people, and sometimes yeah your right
get fooled in the 47th street area. ERD was nice, but he was very busy, I showed up without
much notice, he didn''t have a lot of time for me. I''m thinking of going back.
Click to expand...
Just want to say (the obvious?) but the price you pay for a diamond is for much more than just the diamond. There are different packages so to speak. At the top of the market place you seem to get all the niceties, the glamour, the lack of too much effort, the prestige even....but the diamond may be just so so. Going down a few notches, you might loose the blue box but you will get more info. better cuts, better savings and still have peace of mind and security. But if you go too low, you are in no mans land, there is no security, no tradeups, no help, no pleasure and it is dangerous imo. I would almost rather be at the top and overpay but have the pleasure of the transaction than to be buying with absolutely no protection or recourse. The wholesalers place might not even let you back in if there is a problem.

I am the queen at buying wholesale and I can tell you, you usually end up paying in another way!!! And I live by my saying that the most expensive thing is the thing you have to buy twice. When you buy wholesale, and you are not a business you are getting a `favour`, although it usually works out not as good as you believed.

Even for me, there are many things that I could buy wholesale, but dont because having someone to guide you and having a relationship with someone who you may need help from is worth a premium.

I wouldnt buy unless the terms were more favourable.

Mind you, I can imagine that buying fatigue has set in. Its a shame that so much energy has been spent but none at any of the known well priced vendors here who would give the best of both worlds, good price and good stock with security, upgrade possibility and different payment options.
 
I would be very reluctant to pay cash, especially before having the stone appraised. Also, if there is no return policy, that would be a turn off to me
I can relate to your experience because I went the same route myself. After going through the Diamond District and the upscale shops you went to, I found that buying from a reputable and informative Pricescope vendor was the best way for me to go.
Garry''s suspicions are well founded. I have always been under the impression that the wholesalers protect their vendors and do not sell to the public. This may be the exception but if he wants cash and there is no return policy, the stone would be worth less to me than if I purchased from someone used to deaing with private parties and will take either a credit card or a bank transfer so that there is a record of the sale.
Also if he is not collecting NY sales tax, there may be a problem on such a large purchase.
 
Sharon101, thank you, all that was well said, and I think you are correct.
We are not going to buy from the wholeseller, based on how we feel today,
doesn''t feel right.
 
What do you think of this one:

Carat Weight: 1.56
Color Grade: E
Clarity Grade: VS1
Cut Grade: Excellent
Proportions:
Depth: 61.8%
Table: 56%
Crown Angle: 35 degrees
Crown Height: 15.5%
Pavilion Angle: 41 degrees
Pavilion Depth: 43.5%
Star Length: 55%
Lower Half: 80%
Girdle: Thin to Medium, Faceted
Cutlet None
Finish: Polish: Very Good
Synmetry: Excellent
Fluor: None
GIA# 15179195
 
This is strange to me:

GIA #14908956 says: Cut Grade: Very Good. Plug the #''s into the diamond calc, and it returns Excellent
GIA #15179195 says: Cute Grade: Excellent. Plus the #''s into the diamond calc, and it returns Very good.

So, is the Diamond Calc a better indicator of whether this diamond is the best.
 
This diamond receives a rating of 2.3 Very Good on the HCA. It is not within AGS parameters, therefore, not an ideal cut. Since I have an ACA and HOF diamonds, I am biased toward AGS ideal stones. If I posted this before, I'm sorry for being repetitious. I know you went to Michael C. Fina. Take a good look at a number of HOF diamonds, using the H&A viewer and the Idealscope. You should be able to see what the ideal stones are all about and further take a good look at the H&A cut to see if they're to your liking. Then you [for sister] needs to decide if she want to pay HOF prices or get an equivalent stone from WF or GOG. I went with the WF ACA and have been well pleased. On the other hand, since she has the money saved, she could get a stunning HOF that will truly be an ideal diamond.
 

Are you saying that neither of these diamonds are excellent cuts?


GIA #14908956 says: Cut Grade: Very Good. Plug the #''s into the diamond calc, and it returns Excellent
GIA #15179195 says: Cute Grade: Excellent. Plus the #''s into the diamond calc, and it returns Very good.
So, is the Diamond Calc a better indicator of whether this diamond is the best.
 
I'm referring to GIA# 15179195 and the results on the HCA. That's different than the GIA grading report. Although a diamond may be graded as excellent, it still may not receive excellents on the HCA, based upon it's proportions.
 
So which one would be considered better:
GIA#16171813
GIA#15179195
GIA#14908956
 
You need to remember that HCA is a rejection tool. As Garry has explained, the IS will help you with selection. Use the cut advisor to get "the number," but use your eyes and the other tools when making a decision.
 
Carolyn, I too thought you''d gotten your stone at ERD...If this vendor is the "contact" of the HW salesperson? That smells fishy to me. First off, no legitimate and trustworthy luxury retail salesperson would send you off to someone else...unless they''re unscrupulous and getting some sort of kickback from your potential sale at "their friend''s place." Cash only? No discussion of return policy. At a no name place that you have to have permission to even get to? No way. Walk away now. Go to one of the vendors listed here that people have been referring you to...Go to GOG and ERD (again) and make appointments first! They are very busy people so if you walk in they wont have a lot of time for you but everyone here that''s ever posted about either place, has had an appt. first and said that both Mark and Gavin took literally hours to spend with them. That said, you can still go the Leon route. I''m not sure why you haven''t looked into that but he can source wonderful stones for you, though I doubt there''s an upgrade plan.
 
Hey Carolynw, I just came back to finish up the old stories I was on and see if you had made a purchase. If you guys were really considering a situation as shady as that one I just read about I think you need to pull back and take a little break for a short period of time. It is very important to keep a clear head. Remember the things you want, the environment you want, and to have confidence. Patience, a logical and critical of your Sales Associate/jeweler, and trust is critical

Reading these post has me imagining some person running down a football field with the ball bouncing off his finger tips over and over--just not quite able to get control.

I may have gotten the wrong impression and I am sorry if I did, but if I am getting the correct impression I suggest you find some way to get that baby tucked up into a nice smelly armpit before taking off down the field.


I think, whatever else you consider, this purchase needs to be made with confidence, as I know from my own experiences without confidence at the time of purchase it is much more likely to have fairly severe buyers remorse and end up dissatisfied.


For the record, I say buy the Ideal-Scope. But the IS is obviously not going to actually make any final decisions for you. Though it does help an awful lot with confidence and does help reveal a good deal of valuable information.

In the end though I say that this couple really needs to remember that diamond purchases are pretty much entirely a mind issue. Nobody on this site is going to be able to look at most of the above mentioned diamonds in passing, sitting across the table from you, or while at work and see any difference AT ALL. And I would say they are fairly well informed.

The key is the consumers own mind. Use the information to find your own comfort levels and parameters (also to make sure you aren''t getting ripped off, but you have to factor in price of name brands when doing that), BUT

make sure that this purchase is entirely egocentric and self-centered.
 
For the record, I would advise just skipping this post. So don''t yell at me for not having enough self-control not to respond if you don''t have enough self-control not to read:



Date: 10/26/2007 11:49:39 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Date: 10/21/2007 10:35:34 PM

Author: strmrdr


Date: 10/21/2007 7:39:15 PM

Author: WorkingHardforSmallRewards



Hello Gary, if you are still glancing at this thread. I only ask you this because in some post you respond to certain steep deep diamonds .........

I would much rather seek out the truth
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

When you discover an immutable truth, please share it with us.
Click to expand...

First, don''t throw in words like "immutable" that I didn''t use.

Second...I guess I will run with this and say what I have to say...


I had in mind was that Ellen is far as I know, along with most of the others on here, consumers just like myself. Not professionals, not experts. So the TRUTH is that those who have been arguing with me for so stinking long now could all be wrong just as easily as I. The truth is that what we have done and the heart of our posts are essentially the same.

We have taken the bulk of our data online
combined with several other resources
and applied it our own live observations of similar diamonds.


The truth is, that most of our actions were the same.

The truth is that in any way that I was "irresponsible", so those others who formulated their own positions in ALL of their infinite wisdom.


But yes, we could have gathered truth. we could have gathered the truth of why we have each come to our positions and what we each see as individuals under set conditions via:

discussion of what our references were
and possibly set up an experiment with defined methods wherein we each recorded our data individually. Then we could have had the truth of what we saw under set conditions with recorded data at the time of the experiment-- I do believe the past contains truths which are quite immutable, despite how our personal observations might have changed in the future. THAT was the truth I wish we had attempted to pursue.


And finally when there is continuous and heated debate amongst honest, knowledgeable experts and life-long dedicated caring professionals as to whether or not a visible difference between two sets of angles EXIST. And when this occurs frequently in multiple isolated instances, Then THE TRUTH IS it could not possibly be OBVIOUS.


Most people I know have never even considered the details of diamond cut and wouldn''t have ever even thought anything was wrong with their POOR cuts (a difference no self respecting gemologist would argue with) and most CERTAINLY don''t want to ruin their purchasing experience trying to learn how to separate minute differences that many experts can not even agree on.

Sure, there are some as stupid as myself who do want to do just that and are incredibly thankful for the information and information/tools/resources you have provided. But without any doubt at this level of cut it simply isn''t relevant to the vast majority.
 
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