H&A fire question

[Karl_K]

So we have 5 attributes of flashes off a diamond:
Size
brightness
dwell or how long it is bright
separation or space/time between flashes
color/white

All of them are a function of the lighting environment combined with the diamonds cut with movement.
None of them can be defined just by diamond cut or just by lighting.

 

[yssie]

dwell or how long it remains lighted is another property that must be considered.

Karl - is not also a function of facet size EDIT: and *shape* - so that as the facet is moved and turned in a stone on a motile finger the same source has more opportunity to reach a larger facet that spans A) greater surface area & B) larger number of parallel angle planes..?

by this reasoning a long facet will be more 'successful' at staying lit for longer than a square facet of the same area

 

[Karl_K]

dwell or how long it remains lighted is another property that must be considered.

Karl - is not also a function of facet size - so that as the facet is moved and turned in a stone on a motile finger the same source has more opportunity to reach a larger facet that spans A) greater surface area & B) larger number of parallel angle planes..?

virtual facet size
where the virtual facet draws light in relation to the viewer and light source.
angular size of the light source
speed and degree of motion

persistence of human vision also has to be considered.
Look at a bright light in a dim room.. close your eyes.. for a small amount of time it will look like the light is still there. That is persistence and it can cause multiple flashes with min. separation to be seen as one which is how movies work.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistence_of_vision

 

[yssie]

you are a font of information


thanks for the linky - watching the dot now. How absolutely - bizarre.

 

[MAC-W]

Hi Andelain,

Sure this diamond is nice, but in this picture the flare is almost white.
I was more talking about blue, red, ... flare.

But yes, that's some serious flare.

Will this do for coloured flare?

 

[MAC-W]

dwell or how long it remains lighted is another property that must be considered.

Karl - is not also a function of facet size - so that as the facet is moved and turned in a stone on a motile finger the same source has more opportunity to reach a larger facet that spans A) greater surface area & B) larger number of parallel angle planes..?

virtual facet size
where the virtual facet draws light in relation to the viewer and light source.
angular size of the light source
speed and degree of motion

persistence of human vision also has to be considered.
Look at a bright light in a dim room.. close your eyes.. for a small amount of time it will look like the light is still there. That is persistence and it can cause multiple flashes with min. separation to be seen as one which is how movies work.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistence_of_vision

Karl,
that dot thing is amazing. Thanks for the link
M

 

[Stephan]

That's so interesting, thank you all for your contribution!

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

So we have 5 attributes of flashes off a diamond:
Size
brightness
dwell or how long it is bright
separation or space/time between flashes
color/white

All of them are a function of the lighting environment combined with the diamonds cut with movement.
None of them can be defined just by diamond cut or just by lighting.

Karl,

If I understand correctly, none of the above 5 attributes is connected to face-up obstruction-areas. Or am I missing something?

Live long,

 

[Cachette]

Fascinating topic!

Love the dot example. How fun!

Cachette

 

[Karl_K]

So we have 5 attributes of flashes off a diamond:
Size
brightness
dwell or how long it is bright
separation or space/time between flashes
color/white

All of them are a function of the lighting environment combined with the diamonds cut with movement.
None of them can be defined just by diamond cut or just by lighting.

Karl,

If I understand correctly, none of the above 5 attributes is connected to face-up obstruction-areas. Or am I missing something?

Live long,

Paul,
Face-up obstruction can impact the following areas:

Brightness - from head shadow based obstruction to returning light will often be drawing light from the brightest areas. Going from dark to light will also be a more visible change.

dwell or how long it is bright - can be determined by how far it is moved out of the obstruction then back in.

separation - can also be affected by a virtual facet moving in and out of obstruction

white/color - with the pavilion mains light return on the edge of going into or out of obstruction is often colored light.

The only variable that isn't changed is size which is determined the virtual facet size modified by the light sources relative angular size and location.

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Can you expand on the point of 'white/color'?

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Can you expand on the point of 'white/color'?

Paul,

You probably remember this from April Infinity Dealer's Conference presentation by Peter Yantzer and Jason Quick.




If your head clips part of a fan you will see colored light.

How fast you move your head or tilt the diamond and the precise angle where the mains gather light can influence how much color you can see.

 

[Siamese Kitty]

Hi Siamese Kitty!

Your answer really warms my heart.
I'm on the same boat, I've bought so many diamonds, and I still don't know the answer.
In my consumer experience, I think that smaller tables, higher upper girdles (longer star facets) and higher crowns might provide stronger fire => flare in the arrows. I don't know what would be the best pavilion.
In shallow combo's I've bought a few times, long star facets really did help. Shallow diamonds can have great fire outside the arrows, while some H&A diamonds sometimes lack of fire there.
This said, I think H&A diamonds are the best choice and should be preferred over shallow diamonds because they allow a greater range of lighting and glow more often. At arm length, H&A diamonds look better while shallow diamonds look great in earrings or pendants.
Yet I think H&A diamonds can be very different and some have more 'flare' than others.

Sorry, I haven't responded here sooner. This was so kind of you to say. What's going on in your new avatar, by the way? Is a three stone on the horizon for you?

Reader beware of the musings of a tired, slightly confused PSer.

I am desperately in over my head here, but of the 5 characteristics Karl mentions, I think the separation between flashes is significant to what I observe as great "flare". I have had two 34.7/40.7 stones of somewhat similar size. The first had 75lgf, and the second 78lgf. I know we have spoken to how 75 lgf lend themselves to broader, fiery flashes, whereas 78-80 lgf is where the more splintery scintillation usually begins to occur. I was worried that I would be sacrificing this notion of "flare" in a stone with longer lgfs, as it is a characteristic I really enjoy, too. (I am arbitrarily making a layman's distinction between regular fire and flare as the latter representating the more intense bursts of fire that seem to last longer and extend beyond the perimeter of the stone.)

The second stone, which is the one I have now, has incredible flare under spot lighting and the separation between flashes is almost non-existent. I can't say this one "lends itself more to brillance" or "more splintery flashes". In the high frequency of flashes of the 78 lgf, my eye does not perceive the difference in flare size as compared to my former 75lgf. The dot example linked above seemed to offer an explanation for this, since I am perhaps still recovering from one retina burning flash when the next one begins, giving the impression of the stone always being "on". I hope I'm not totally missing the mark here.

Ah, and here's another monkey wrench-my favorite topic of body color. The 75 lgf was an I and the 78 lgf is an E. When I bought this stone, I scoured PS for threads about red fire, the color which I think offers the most intense "flare". My "I" had tons of it, and I loved it. I was tempted to buy another I in spite of my preference for colorless stones because I thought "this must be the key"! This, coupled with my SIL's J that also has a lot of red fire, convinced me lower color was correlated with the color of fire. I know I have read on here somewhere that it is. Moreover, the G I owned afterward had practically none, and I figured this was because I was heading into the more colorless range. Then, low and behold, my new E has a moderate amount of red fire. Less than the I, but more than the G.

I'm not sure if any of this makes sense! I'm enjoying following the discussion, though.
I'm including a picture of my "flare". (Is Office Space coming to mind for anyone else?)

 

[Stephan]

Hi Siamese Kitty!

Your explanation about red fire made me smile!
I'm also after red and blue fire.
I find the orange totally uninteresting.

I had a similar experience to yours with 2 diamonds that had longer LGF.
They also had bold and strong flashes of fire under strong lighting, no way they had a splintery look.

You are right, I'm planning a 3 stone ring.
You perhaps remember I have a 1.56 BGD, L-VS1, I receive compliments on it daily, and nobody thinks it looks yellow.
When I compare it to a D, it looks really dark, but the fire flashes coming out of this thing are incredibly strong and perhaps more visible than in a D: people who could compare it to a D actually preferred the L!
Recently I bought another BlueNile AGS 0 diamond, HCA 0.4.
I've had a ring made by a Chinese friend, so it is not expensive. (I can change ring without losing a lot of money.)
The diamond is really nice in matter of dispersion, scintillation and light return, but its 'flare' is not as strong as in my BGD.
BlueNile has a buy back policy but I don't use it, because I feel this AGS 0 has other nice features.
It's not white yet it is icy.
I love so much different aspects in diamonds...
So I thought I had to add 2 BGD side stones, to have a complete ring.
Both 0.415 H-VS2, AGS 104048050043 and 104048050045 (Center stone is 1.308 I-VS1, AGS 104047871002)
I love the fact they have 56/57 star facet length.
I'm sure it will be a winning combination (AGS 0 + 2 BGD), especially because it will be done in a symmetric way.
I'm just sad that BGD will not set the diamonds, because to have a ring made by them, I should send my 1.308 to the US and after that I would to have pay VAT for the 1.308 again once they send me the ring back.

 

[risingsun]

[threadjack] QueenMum~ Why is it that you have to pay VAT on an item that you already own? I purchase some leather goods from Italy and if I need to return something, we run into the same problem. How many times can one pay VAT on their own purchases
[/threadjack]

 

[Stephan]

Hi risingsun!
In theory, you don't have to pay twice, but I've sent a diamond to EightStar earlier to have them recut it, and the paperwork for FedEx was just very complicated too prove it was my diamond, so I'm scared and I prefer to avoid FedEx.

 

[Cehrabehra]

How yellow the stone is has nothing to do with seeing red fire, especially in the near colorless range you refer to. I can attest that a yellowed stone gives more "jewel tone" vs primary in totally clear because you are looking at it overlaying the yellow tint and it's like putting a yellow lens on blue and seeing green but not at all that intense. If anything in a more yellow stone the red will appear (but not actually *be*) more orange.

I have seen and photographed all colors of fire from my stone. Garry says green is the most difficult to capture on film but I've had no problem with that. To me the hardest is a perfect violet.

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Can you expand on the point of 'white/color'?

Paul,

You probably remember this from April Infinity Dealer's Conference presentation by Peter Yantzer and Jason Quick.




If your head clips part of a fan you will see colored light.

How fast you move your head or tilt the diamond and the precise angle where the mains gather light can influence how much color you can see.

Obviously, I remember, CCL. It is extremely important information.

Live long,

 

[risingsun]

Hi risingsun!
In theory, you don't have to pay twice, but I've sent a diamond to EightStar earlier to have them recut it, and the paperwork for FedEx was just very complicated too prove it was my diamond, so I'm scared and I prefer to avoid FedEx.

Thanks for the information, QM. I understand your reluctance.

 

[Karl_K]

Thank you ccl, that is what I was thinking of but I couldn't find it to post.

 

[Siamese Kitty]

Hi Siamese Kitty!

Your explanation about red fire made me smile!
I'm also after red and blue fire.
I find the orange totally uninteresting.

I had a similar experience to yours with 2 diamonds that had longer LGF.
They also had bold and strong flashes of fire under strong lighting, no way they had a splintery look.

You are right, I'm planning a 3 stone ring.
You perhaps remember I have a 1.56 BGD, L-VS1, I receive compliments on it daily, and nobody thinks it looks yellow.
When I compare it to a D, it looks really dark, but the fire flashes coming out of this thing are incredibly strong and perhaps more visible than in a D: people who could compare it to a D actually preferred the L!
Recently I bought another BlueNile AGS 0 diamond, HCA 0.4.
I've had a ring made by a Chinese friend, so it is not expensive. (I can change ring without losing a lot of money.)
The diamond is really nice in matter of dispersion, scintillation and light return, but its 'flare' is not as strong as in my BGD.
BlueNile has a buy back policy but I don't use it, because I feel this AGS 0 has other nice features.
It's not white yet it is icy.
I love so much different aspects in diamonds...
So I thought I had to add 2 BGD side stones, to have a complete ring.
Both 0.415 H-VS2, AGS 104048050043 and 104048050045 (Center stone is 1.308 I-VS1, AGS 104047871002)
I love the fact they have 56/57 star facet length.
I'm sure it will be a winning combination (AGS 0 + 2 BGD), especially because it will be done in a symmetric way.
I'm just sad that BGD will not set the diamonds, because to have a ring made by them, I should send my 1.308 to the US and after that I would to have pay VAT for the 1.308 again once they send me the ring back.

Wow, QM, you have been busy! hehe I can't wait to see your new ring-I'm certain it will be gorgeous! You are going to be blingin'.

As for the L, I know I'm always going on about Ds and Es, but I really do love stones in this range. They are just a completely different bag than the colorless stones, and a beautiful bag at that! I think my next big purchase will be a K-L antique cut of some kind.

Cehra-Yeah, I'm seeing that correlating color with red fire was an erroneous approach. I could have sworn I read something on here about this a few years back, but alas. Also, I'm not sure if I agreed with you earlier on this point, but I think you're right about bowtie "flare". My pear has a distinct one and under spotlight the bowtie will blind you!

MAC-W, that is one fiery ring!

 

[Cehrabehra]

Hi Siamese Kitty!

Your explanation about red fire made me smile!
I'm also after red and blue fire.
I find the orange totally uninteresting.

I had a similar experience to yours with 2 diamonds that had longer LGF.
They also had bold and strong flashes of fire under strong lighting, no way they had a splintery look.

You are right, I'm planning a 3 stone ring.
You perhaps remember I have a 1.56 BGD, L-VS1, I receive compliments on it daily, and nobody thinks it looks yellow.
When I compare it to a D, it looks really dark, but the fire flashes coming out of this thing are incredibly strong and perhaps more visible than in a D: people who could compare it to a D actually preferred the L!
Recently I bought another BlueNile AGS 0 diamond, HCA 0.4.
I've had a ring made by a Chinese friend, so it is not expensive. (I can change ring without losing a lot of money.)
The diamond is really nice in matter of dispersion, scintillation and light return, but its 'flare' is not as strong as in my BGD.
BlueNile has a buy back policy but I don't use it, because I feel this AGS 0 has other nice features.
It's not white yet it is icy.
I love so much different aspects in diamonds...
So I thought I had to add 2 BGD side stones, to have a complete ring.
Both 0.415 H-VS2, AGS 104048050043 and 104048050045 (Center stone is 1.308 I-VS1, AGS 104047871002)
I love the fact they have 56/57 star facet length.
I'm sure it will be a winning combination (AGS 0 + 2 BGD), especially because it will be done in a symmetric way.
I'm just sad that BGD will not set the diamonds, because to have a ring made by them, I should send my 1.308 to the US and after that I would to have pay VAT for the 1.308 again once they send me the ring back.

Wow, QM, you have been busy! hehe I can't wait to see your new ring-I'm certain it will be gorgeous! You are going to be blingin'.

As for the L, I know I'm always going on about Ds and Es, but I really do love stones in this range. They are just a completely different bag than the colorless stones, and a beautiful bag at that! I think my next big purchase will be a K-L antique cut of some kind.

Cehra-Yeah, I'm seeing that correlating color with red fire was an erroneous approach. I could have sworn I read something on here about this a few years back, but alas. Also, I'm not sure if I agreed with you earlier on this point, but I think you're right about bowtie "flare". My pear has a distinct one and under spotlight the bowtie will blind you!

MAC-W, that is one fiery ring!

It is a firey ring, isn't it?? And I feel like I need to defend against the assumption that bow ties = bad things when they're the same facets that those prized arrows are, just wider and fewer. I really don't mind at all if people don't like them, but they have some wonderfully unique qualities that are missed without them. I don't think they should be just thrown out inherently and across the board. Mine are my favorite facets! I don't even really know all of my other facets, but those two I could practically name... and maybe I should name them lol How about Greta and Marlene? Or maybe they're like the silver wrist bands on wonder woman? Or maybe I'm just being ridiculously silly now lol

 

[yssie]

It is a firey ring, isn't it?? And I feel like I need to defend against the assumption that bow ties = bad things when they're the same facets that those prized arrows are, just wider and fewer. I really don't mind at all if people don't like them, but they have some wonderfully unique qualities that are missed without them. I don't think they should be just thrown out inherently and across the board. Mine are my favorite facets! I don't even really know all of my other facets, but those two I could practically name... and maybe I should name them lol How about Greta and Marlene? Or maybe they're like the silver wrist bands on wonder woman? Or maybe I'm just being ridiculously silly now lol

I do think whether or not obstruction *bothers you* depends very much on - well, your appearance, for lack of better description. Cehra if I remember correctly you are fair and blonde? Which means those facets don't get truly black until you hold your stone quite close - and when they reflect what is in front of them - you - they are reflecting nice pastelly peaches and creams.. me, I'm dark - dark skin, black hair. I had an overly-obstructive stone and when those facets reflected *me* my stone looked positively ghoulish.. wouldn't want it back for all the fiery mains in the world


ETA - we have a cat named Greta. She is very sweet and very tubby

 

[Siamese Kitty]

It is a firey ring, isn't it?? And I feel like I need to defend against the assumption that bow ties = bad things when they're the same facets that those prized arrows are, just wider and fewer. I really don't mind at all if people don't like them, but they have some wonderfully unique qualities that are missed without them. I don't think they should be just thrown out inherently and across the board. Mine are my favorite facets! I don't even really know all of my other facets, but those two I could practically name... and maybe I should name them lol How about Greta and Marlene? Or maybe they're like the silver wrist bands on wonder woman? Or maybe I'm just being ridiculously silly now lol

I do think whether or not obstruction *bothers you* depends very much on - well, your appearance, for lack of better description. Cehra if I remember correctly you are fair and blonde? Which means those facets don't get truly black until you hold your stone quite close - and when they reflect what is in front of them - you - they are reflecting nice pastelly peaches and creams.. me, I'm dark - dark skin, black hair. I had an overly-obstructive stone and when those facets reflected *me* my stone looked positively ghoulish.. wouldn't want it back for all the fiery mains in the world


ETA - we have a cat named Greta. She is very sweet and very tubby

Hmm...I enjoy the bowtie fire and I am also fair with blonde hair. Interesting.