H&A scope

[PhillipSchmidt]

This was something told me and I want some help in refuting the evidence,

A large company selling hundreds of stones a week, bought a H&A scope via an internet vendor.

They believe you can play with the scope and see hearts and arrows in almost any stone.

I need to buy one (any leads?), but when I use a loup on an H&A stone I can see the symetry well enough to determine if there are any imperfect facets. There is no way the facets can lie, no matter how you adjust any scope??. I can see no concievable way any tool can match up facets that don''t fit.

The explanation told me is that the scope in question ''a H&A scope'', is a kallidascope tool somehow rendering the phenominom onto the stone.

Handy tool that one! The ones I have used have a colour filter and nothing else.

I expect your all of you are of the same oppinion as me, but if there is any optical illusion scope on the market could someone please enlighten me.

Phillip

 

[PhillipSchmidt]

I forgot to tick track this, bye

 

[Lord Summerisle]

If your looking for a H&A scope, I got mine from a UK supplier listed on the ideal scope website. didnt cost that much.. £15? I think, with 2 CZ 6.5mm stones. its a little blue plastic thing, with a white plastic top, and I think its a 6x magnification on it.

 

[PhillipSchmidt]

I think I might be buying from Garry as his page seems to be the authoratative one.

Better yet his CO'' is in close distance walking.

Garry whats your number? I am pretty free tomorrow!

Phillip

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Sorry PS - I do not sell them.
Dave Atlas has them in US - but local Aussie tool suppliers have them - I know HoJ in Sydney does

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 1/6/2005 2:51:22 AM
Author:Platinumsmith
This was something told me and I want some help in refuting the evidence,

A large company selling hundreds of stones a week, bought a H&A scope via an internet vendor.

They believe you can play with the scope and see hearts and arrows in almost any stone.

I need to buy one (any leads?), but when I use a loup on an H&A stone I can see the symetry well enough to determine if there are any imperfect facets. There is no way the facets can lie, no matter how you adjust any scope??. I can see no concievable way any tool can match up facets that don't fit.

The explanation told me is that the scope in question 'a H&A scope', is a kallidascope tool somehow rendering the phenominom onto the stone.

Horse-Hockey.

These must be the same fellows who believe that taking your picture steals your soul. Any chance they were tribal?

A H&A viewer is an extremely simple device. The base is a tube with reflective colored paper inside, which goes over the diamond. A magnifying lens is set in the top. The eyepiece is elevated over the lens. The space between the lens and the eyepiece allows light to enter. The resulting pattern (or non-result) is soley a result of facet construction.

Handy tool that one! The ones I have used have a colour filter and nothing else.

I expect your all of you are of the same oppinion as me, but if there is any optical illusion scope on the market could someone please enlighten me.

I have heard of a mystical device called "beer goggles" which purportedly improves perceived beauty. Any insight on that one?

 

[JohnQuixote]

Hearts & Arrows viewer.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Phillip... Here is more material to refute the cave-dwellers.

* Disclaimer: Some people prefer orderly symmetry in their diamonds. Others may not.

For those who do enjoy precision of cut resulting in uniformity and the precise symmetrical alignment of facets there is no more useful tool than the H&A viewer. It tells you more about how facets interact with each other than any other tool.

A very attractive quality of the H&A viewer is that viewing the pavilion patterning (hearts) is done table-down: You have no worries about the stone being level, which is one of the most difficult things about analyzing a diamond. When taking clarity photos, arrows images or IdealScope images it takes effort to make certain the stone is completely level in the table-up position. If not, you get skewed results. Since the hearts patterning is viewed and photographed in the table-down position you get an immediate, accurate read.

You can even see the effects of a tilted table in the H&A viewer without a Sarin machine in a stone with good patterning, because you will have to skew the angle of your head somewhat to try and bring the pattern into a harmonious position (which may or may not be possible). Similarly you will know if the culet is off-center.

Because of a fascination with looking at the crown - or arrows - some people forget that the most important view is the pavilion view. Remember that it takes 5 different facets working in harmony to create one “heart” pattern. The arrows are a result of good pavilion patterning – not the other way around.

When looking at the hearts, any misalignment or yaw will be evident by way of a non-uniform, distorted or broken pattern. A loupe won't show how a yawed facet interacts with others (which is the point of patterning). You won't see resultant stray reflection caused by yawed facets, or the degree of yaw in a loupe or any of the scopes. The hearts view alone allows instant, user-friendly, accurate assessment of the way the facets behave in relation to each other. You are looking at their complete interaction. It's where you see uniformity, consistency, and precise alignment of the reflecting facets.

The Hearts & Arrows viewer is to patterning and physical symmetry what the Ideal Scope is to light return and proportions integrity.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 1/7/2005 12:51

8 AM
Author: JohnQuixote
Phillip... Here is more material to refute the cave-dwellers.

You can even see the effects of a tilted table in the H&A viewer without a Sarin machine in a stone with good patterning, because you will have to skew the angle of your head somewhat to try and bring the pattern into a harmonious position (which may or may not be possible). Similarly you will know if the culet is off-center.

Hmmmm John, I think Sir, that whilst Brian would not pass these Hearts and arrows patterns - that an observer might not detect this titled table with either a H&A''s nor an ideal-scope.

But it does not matter - the stone was beautiful inspite of the GIA giving it a Good for symmetry because the culet is off center and the variance in crown and pav angles that result from a tilted table.

 

[PhillipSchmidt]

Still reading the posts, smallest first

I just realised something. Surely most diamonds are tilted to some degree. I have been using a single set of angles in the cut-advisor. Where the cutlet is tilted the pavillion must have variances in the angles, say 42 degree right 39 degree left. How do Sarin reports or certificates, deign a single measurement?

OK, back to reading the posts

 

[Lord Summerisle]

The average of all the crown (or pavilion) angles mesured? Which is why the Sarin gives a range of which those angles fall within, and isn't there another report which gives the angles of the individual facets?

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 1/7/2005 5:38:27 AM
Author: Lord Summerisle
The average of all the crown (or pavilion) angles mesured? Which is why the Sarin gives a range of which those angles fall within, and isn''t there another report which gives the angles of the individual facets?

A full .srn report gives all the angles as does the full reports from some other scanners.
goodoldgold.com has full .srn files available on the website for the h&a rounds.
Most sites dont post the full .srn files and just post the report which is a summery of the results.
All of them are less than perfect in the accuracy department but better than nothing.

 

[strmrdr]

Garry,
From the images you posted it is obvious to me that there is something off.
The problem is determining what.
A tilt of the diamond when the images are taken can produce the same affect.
Figuring out if its the diamond or the images that are off is the hard part.

Im going to repeat what Iv said a 1000 times before:
Dont rely on one piece of data when determining diamond quality treat each one as part of a puzzle and look at the whole picture.

 

[Lord Summerisle]

The H&A scope I got, looks rather different to the one you have illustrated John.

Its a blue plastic tube, bout 1/16" thick, 3"long, and about 1/2" - 1" in diameter, then at the top of the blue tube, inside is a lens and capped with a white plastic top, with a hole in it for viewing through.

''Starscope Hearts and Arrows viewer'' I think its called.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 1/7/2005 6

9:27 AM
Author: strmrdr
Garry,
From the images you posted it is obvious to me that there is something off.
The problem is determining what.
A tilt of the diamond when the images are taken can produce the same affect.
Figuring out if its the diamond or the images that are off is the hard part.

Im going to repeat what Iv said a 1000 times before:
Dont rely on one piece of data when determining diamond quality treat each one as part of a puzzle and look at the whole picture.

Storm I have put at least 50 links to the site where these images have been dislayed on threads that you and many others have read. As i rather suspected none of you have bothered to follow them even though Yuri Sergey and I spent hundreds of hours writting and editing the information.
Would anyone like to post the link for naugthy Storm?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 1/7/2005 6:35:42 AM
Author: Lord Summerisle
The H&A scope I got, looks rather different to the one you have illustrated John.

Its a blue plastic tube, bout 1/16'' thick, 3''long, and about 1/2'' - 1'' in diameter, then at the top of the blue tube, inside is a lens and capped with a white plastic top, with a hole in it for viewing through.

''Starscope Hearts and Arrows viewer'' I think its called.

There are flash ones and simple ones Lord S.

I was always amused by the number of experts who criticized the $25 plastic ideal-scope shot glass for it poor quality optics - but i have yet to find a decent optical quality H&A''s viewer.

 

[strmrdr]

Here is the same image with some arrows pointing to some of the off areas and some pointing to the way it should look.
By comparing simular areas to the ones marked the problems can be seen.

I could have marked several others but I think you get the picture.

 

[Lord Summerisle]

Isnt there also on image C, the arrow head pointed ESE the head slightly off from the stalk of the arrow?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Dear stormrider you have missed the point.
The stone is not a perfect ACA H&A''s - it was sold as an off make by a noted Israeli new DTC sightholder.

It has a tilted table. You have read about it - surely you have?

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 1/7/2005 6:41:24 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 1/7/2005 6

9:27 AM

Author: strmrdr

Garry,

From the images you posted it is obvious to me that there is something off.

The problem is determining what.

A tilt of the diamond when the images are taken can produce the same affect.

Figuring out if its the diamond or the images that are off is the hard part.


Im going to repeat what Iv said a 1000 times before:

Dont rely on one piece of data when determining diamond quality treat each one as part of a puzzle and look at the whole picture.

Storm I have put at least 50 links to the site where these images have been dislayed on threads that you and many others have read. As i rather suspected none of you have bothered to follow them even though Yuri Sergey and I spent hundreds of hours writting and editing the information.

Would anyone like to post the link for naugthy Storm?

Garry just because I simplify my answers on here dont assume that I havent read the cut studies and Brian''s work in this area.
I could care less about scoring points with you its about helping others learn.
If that means posting simplified answers that you dont like then so be it.

What part of my answer is not factual?

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 1/7/2005 6:47:49 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Dear stormrider you have missed the point.

The stone is not a perfect ACA H&A''s - it was sold as an off make by a noted Israeli new DTC sightholder.


It has a tilted table. You have read about it - surely you have?

Yes Iv read about tilted tables.
You have missed my point also.
The point of the image I posted is where the problem areas are and that a h&a viewer/IS/computer generated image can be used to spot them.
Also that it isnt that easy to spot them if one hasnt looked at a lot of images.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 1/7/2005 6:47:27 AM
Author: Lord Summerisle
Isnt there also on image C, the arrow head pointed ESE the head slightly off from the stalk of the arrow?

Currect,
Several of the arrow heads are slightly off.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I have discussed these images adnaseum - but usually via links to the article where they reside.

Sorry that i am scoring points - but you, of all people, should know these 4 photo's very well.

And John Q too - John- you have been referred to this set of photo's many times - you should know that a titled table stone can not be easily detected with a H&A viewer.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 1/7/2005 7:13:34 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
I have discussed these images adnaseum - but usually via links to the article where they reside.


Sorry that i am scoring points - but you, of all people, should know these 4 photo's very well.


And John Q too - John- you have been referred to this set of photo's many times - you should know that a titled table stone can not be easily detected with a H&A viewer.

Maybe (i dont know enough to say) you cant determin that the tilted table is the cause of the problems but in a diamond with decent symetry a h&a viewer will show you that there is a problem.
The heart photos clearly show a off center cutlet which would be grounds for further investigation if nothing else.
Maybe you have an image of a tilted table diamond with perfect hearts? If so then I learned something this morning :}

 

[PhillipSchmidt]

.

 

[PhillipSchmidt]

Garry that looks good by me. I wonder if you would call it AGS0 by the correctness of the hearts and arrows??

I assume you have a tool to photograph it alone. I''d rate that symetry, I Know others might not.

I think I might be making Storms ring in the end, so as usaual, the better the diamond the better I look.

PS

 

[Lord Summerisle]

lol sorry... forgot you where Oz rather than US

3" = 7.5cm roughly long
1/16"= 3mm, thick,
1" = 2.5cm in diameter.

probly roughly the size of your index or middle finger, that help?

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 1/7/2005 6:35:42 AM
Author: Lord Summerisle
The H&A scope I got, looks rather different to the one you have illustrated John.

Its a blue plastic tube, bout 1/16'' thick, 3''long, and about 1/2'' - 1'' in diameter, then at the top of the blue tube, inside is a lens and capped with a white plastic top, with a hole in it for viewing through.

''Starscope Hearts and Arrows viewer'' I think its called.

Greetings M''Lord. Is yours anything like this one?

The optics in versions like this are significantly inferior for purposes of analysis and photography. There is no industry standard, and I know some vendors use them. Maybe because they do not reveal as much. Maybe because they''re less expensive to produce, store and ship.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 1/7/2005 7:13:34 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
I have discussed these images adnaseum - but usually via links to the article where they reside.

Sorry that i am scoring points - but you, of all people, should know these 4 photo's very well.

And John Q too - John- you have been referred to this set of photo's many times - you should know that a titled table stone can not be easily detected with a H&A viewer.

Au Contraire, mon Garry - Actually, you are helping illustrate my point about detecting such phenomena in the hearts patterning.

I’ve reproduced your tilted example “d” as well as another stone “e” which does not have a tilted table. You can clearly see the off-center pattern in “d” with or without the crosshairs (by the way, you’re correct - neither stone meets my standards for true hearts patterning). It is not a Sarin, but you can indeed see that something is "out of whack" instantly and verify it with Sarin/Ogi/Helium.

By the way, that tilted table link is located right about....HERE. I have read it and it's bookmarked - a good resource. I do appreciate the work, and the time that Serg, Yuri and you have invested.

 

[JohnQuixote]

To further the point about pavilion patterning, I'm reposting Garry's tilted table imagery.

Look at images a, b and c. It is difficult to detect anything awry on a casual glance. Since the stone is made level by human placement and adjustment it is possible to fool the camera.

However, look at the hearts image (d). The stone is placed table-down for this photograph alone. There is no adjustment to be made, so the off-centered pattern is much more obvious.

A trained observer will also pick up subtle differences in image c: For example, the arrow shaft lengths in the 4-o'clock and 8-o'clock positions are obviously different where they should be the same...But the photographer might be able to adjust the leveling of the stone slightly for a more favorable image.

Table-up photography is tricky, but pavilion-up is elegant and revealing. As Brian is fond of saying, "the hearts never lie."