H&A scope

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 1/7/2005 6:44:10 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

I was always amused by the number of experts who criticized the $25 plastic ideal-scope shot glass for it poor quality optics - but i have yet to find a decent optical quality H&A's viewer.

Garry - If someone bought a shot glass from Disneyland, placed red tissue inside, projected Mickey onto the stone and called it an IdealScope I'm sure it would not pass muster with you. Sadly, many H&A viewers on the market are akin to the example above (sans mouse). They confound us and dilute standards. I assure you that there are also very high quality viewers which may not have made the sojourn to your demesne in Oz yet.

 

[oldminer]

I sell a small H&A viewer on the Gemappraisers.com website for $12. It is a lot like the small one in one of the above posts. It is fine for looking at and confirming H&A in a diamond but it might not be one to use as an "expert" in the analysis of the QUALITY of the H&A image. The analysis of a H&A image is done by only a few people, mostly high end cutters, that know exacting details of how the shape of the components and their alignment is supposed to look. For consumers and most retailers, just showing this phenomena is present is sufficient.

Now, there is a BIG difference between a perfect H&A image to an expert and what is a pretty good H&A image to a novice. Sellers generally prefer novices to make their own assessment....It is the easy way out. Most consumers could not tell the difference even if it was pointed out to them as we are not talking huge differences. There is some small analysis that can be done with a fine H&A viewer, but it would elude most of us.

A consumer who buys an expensive H&A view will get nothing more out of it than one who spends for the least costly one. That is exactly why I have only offered an inexpensive one for the public. It does what most of us want it to do very well.

Brian Gavin, from Whiteflash, spent several minutes with me in Las Vegas some months back explaining a lot about how to interpret the H&A images. Obviosuly, he is one of those who know this subject backawards and forwards. I left knowing a little more and better appreciating how much more on this subject that he knows than I do. He still knows a lot more about it.
I found the interpretation of H&A a very interesting topic, but have not found much commercial application for it beyond the phenomena itself. I look to combine science with diamonds in ways that are easy enough to explain, but objectively accurate.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Dave, the original poster was inquiring about the total “scope” (haha) of H&A viewers, and requested info to refute those who think they are hocus-pocus - thus my elaboration. I think it’s obvious that the market for a good H&A viewer constitutes only consumers interested in that level of precision and discriminating pros who wish to learn more about facet interaction. By the way, as per the cost comment, some vendors give a fine H&A viewer free with the purchase of a fine H&A stone.

Also, I agree that there is some learning that must go into interpretation of images, but I would offer that the differences in poor, near-true and true patterning are really as easy to interpret as poor, good and excellent Ideal Scope images are. If you recall when IS first gained popularity there was a huge outcry for understanding. Now, new consumers needing that help are quickly educated by many tutorials, examples and others. IS has been effectively de-mystified over time.

Since H&A are a niche market there is not as much demand for such a detailed understanding of patterning (though it becoming more apparent from comments here that we need it) but the H&A viewer is as easy to use as IdealScope with just a modicum of learning. It did not take years of study with Brian for me or the consumers and customers I’ve worked with to be able to recognize the differences. There has simply not been a widespread demand for that understanding yet.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Thanks John - 10/10 for

But i doubt that anyone would notice the off centered pattern in either any H&A''s scope I have ever seen (at Vegas, Vicenza, HK fair, Basel and Anwterp

- fancy bismerching us Ozzies - just because Hugh Jackman''s Dad fell in love with Aussie Santa does not mean we are all backwoods hicks!!!)

We did not pick it up with the ideal-scope when we bought it. I only examined it more closely after we saw the GIA cert stating that it was Good Sym. We have only just started marking stones as H&A''s in the past 2-3 months - even though many of our stones are - so we never offered it as H&A''s.
After I worked out from the sarin scan why GIA downgraded it - I gave it to a my diamond buyers -all gemm''os and 2 with Diamond Diploma''s (DipDT) and asked them to loupe the stone for symmetry defects which i told them were there but hard to find - they could find none - the off centered-ness was not detected. There is no way that you could convince me that you would detect that off centered pattern with your naked eye

 

[JohnQuixote]

Oh pish-posh, Garry.

I would not seriously besmirch my coolio comrades in Oz (especially not one I need to attend therapy with)... Maybe in Vegas we can exchange some “views” on our trendiest tool technology, then toss down cold ones from the H&A and do shot chasers from IS.

It’s fortunate that you caught this innocent-appearing rock. It’s an excellent teaching stone. I won’t twist your arm to persuade you that I’d have seen it on casual inspection with the naked eye…but I would definitely catch it every time upon seeing the photograph. A well-centered pattern is on our true patterning checklist.

In any event, the issue being observable in the hearts photograph speaks to my point well enough methinks.

 

[Lord Summerisle]

Date: 1/7/2005 10:34:44 AM
Author: JohnQuixote

Date: 1/7/2005 6:35:42 AM
Author: Lord Summerisle
The H&A scope I got, looks rather different to the one you have illustrated John.

Its a blue plastic tube, bout 1/16'' thick, 3''long, and about 1/2'' - 1'' in diameter, then at the top of the blue tube, inside is a lens and capped with a white plastic top, with a hole in it for viewing through.

''Starscope Hearts and Arrows viewer'' I think its called.

Greetings M''Lord. Is yours anything like this one?

The optics in versions like this are significantly inferior for purposes of analysis and photography. There is no industry standard, and I know some vendors use them. Maybe because they do not reveal as much. Maybe because they''re less expensive to produce, store and ship.

Yep thats the one I got. I wasnt expecting too much from it, from what it cost. But what it does do, is allow me to at least see the patterning of a diamond. Might not be the best, but at least it does show something, maybe not to the nth degree of one you chaps have, but hey, thats why i trust you guys... but gives me that little bit to help disinguish between one that doesnt have the pattern, and one that does.. and it having come with a couple of little CZs, at least im getting some practice looking and handleing these stones...