Hand forged vs. cast. Pros and cons?

[NicoleNeedsHelp]

I have been trying to learn about the pros and cons of hand forged vs cast. Any insights? I’m having a ring made now by VC and it will be hand forged— but is this really any better than casting? Seems like more jewelers prefer the casting method. Any insights or pics would be great.

 

[NicoleNeedsHelp]

Oh boy— did I post this in the wrong place? I’m so sorry. Please move if it is not supposed to be in Rocky Talky.

 

[Rockdiamond]

It's really not a simple question because there are so many variables....
The type of ring, for one.
What might look the prettiest might not necessarily be the most practical....but again, specifics matter

 

[Victor Canera]

@NicoleNeedsHelp

Since this is a topic I know about, I thought I’d chime in. If a design can be hand fabricated in a cost effective manner, it’s going to be higher quality than a cast ring. Whether the difference is 50% better of 5% better will depend on how well the cast ring is executed but there will always be a gap built in between the two processes.

Some ring designs lend themselves to casting though. These are usually the really unique designs that have swirly or swooping elements. Designs like that would be hard to execute by hand fabricating them. You can only manipulate metal so much before the laws of physics kick in Or, if these types of designs can be hand fabricated, it would be cost prohibitive because of the amount of time someone would need to put into them in order to create the ring. Some types of rings like simple men’s wedding bands are nicer but I wouldn’t say they’re earth shatteringly more nice if they’re hand fabricated or machined. Interestingly though, most mid to high end wedding band makers still don’t cast their bands so that might tell you something.

Ring designs like solitaires, trilogies and five stone rings really lend themselves to hand fabrication. There are even specific parts of rings like this which are objectively nicer when hand fabricating the ring. For example, prong work and the gallery.

Prongs will be more delicate and refined when hand fabricating them than casting. You can have perfect prongs by pulling metal wire from a draw plate and then soldering them on the ring. A draw plate is a piece of metal with progressively smaller holes in it used to drawn wire. The prongs are perfectly, cylindrically shaped, not overly chunky and clunky. The casting way of doing it is having the computer create the wax, cast the wax, have someone clean the cast prong. There’s also the advantage of additional metal density with hand forged metal which makes the prongs a bit stronger than cast metal. That’s what happens to metal when you press it and form it using a lot of pressure. It actually tightens the metal molecules together.

Other parts of a ring like the gallery are objectively more clean and refined when hand fabricating the ring. That’s part and parcel with being able to assemble separate elements of the ring like the basket, prongs, shank etc. Some shank designs lend themselves especially well to this. Like for example “tri-wire” shanks. The reason we call these tri-wire is because they’re literally made from three separate wires that are drawn from a draw plate. The advantage is going to be that that tri-wire shank is going to be perfectly shaped with individually drawn wires which were connected together. I’m attaching a photo of one below which combines a tri-wire shank in a trilogy design.



Having said that, yes, usually hand fabricated jewelry involves more labor by a more specialized craftsman who's paid a higher salary than unskilled labor and so the finished jewel will be inherently more expensive than a cast ring. The difference in cost will grow as the complexity of the ring adds to the amount of time required to complete it. That’s just the way it goes.

So I would just recommend clients think about the type of ring design that they had in mind. set priorities as to what’s important to them and then make a decision. If you're lucky enough have someone local that offers hand fabricated jewelry, go take a look and see for yourself.

Good luck!

 

[NicoleNeedsHelp]

It's really not a simple question because there are so many variables....
The type of ring, for one.
What might look the prettiest might not necessarily be the most practical....but again, specifics matter

@NicoleNeedsHelp

Since this is a topic I know about, I thought I’d chime in. If a design can be hand fabricated in a cost effective manner, it’s going to be higher quality than a cast ring. Whether the difference is 50% better of 5% better will depend on how well the cast ring is executed but there will always be a gap built in between the two processes.

Some ring designs lend themselves to casting though. These are usually the really unique designs that have swirly or swooping elements. Designs like that would be hard to execute by hand fabricating them. You can only manipulate metal so much before the laws of physics kick in Or, if these types of designs can be hand fabricated, it would be cost prohibitive because of the amount of time someone would need to put into them in order to create the ring. Some types of rings like simple men’s wedding bands are nicer but I wouldn’t say they’re earth shatteringly more nice if they’re hand fabricated or machined. Interestingly though, most mid to high end wedding band makers still don’t cast their bands so that might tell you something.

Ring designs like solitaires, trilogies and five stone rings really lend themselves to hand fabrication. There are even specific parts of rings like this which are objectively nicer when hand fabricating the ring. For example, prong work and the gallery.

Prongs will be more delicate and refined when hand fabricating them than casting. You can have perfect prongs by pulling metal wire from a draw plate and then soldering them on the ring. A draw plate is a piece of metal with progressively smaller holes in it used to drawn wire. The prongs are perfectly, cylindrically shaped, not overly chunky and clunky. The casting way of doing it is having the computer create the wax, cast the wax, have someone clean the cast prong. There’s also the advantage of additional metal density with hand forged metal which makes the prongs a bit stronger than cast metal. That’s what happens to metal when you press it and form it using a lot of pressure. It actually tightens the metal molecules together.

Other parts of a ring like the gallery are objectively more clean and refined when hand fabricating the ring. That’s part and parcel with being able to assemble separate elements of the ring like the basket, prongs, shank etc. Some shank designs lend themselves especially well to this. Like for example “tri-wire” shanks. The reason we call these tri-wire is because they’re literally made from three separate wires that are drawn from a draw plate. The advantage is going to be that that tri-wire shank is going to be perfectly shaped with individually drawn wires which were connected together. I’m attaching a photo of one below which combines a tri-wire shank in a trilogy design.



Having said that, yes, usually hand fabricated jewelry involves more labor by a more specialized craftsman who's paid a higher salary than unskilled labor and so the finished jewel will be inherently more expensive than a cast ring. The difference in cost will grow as the complexity of the ring adds to the amount of time required to complete it. That’s just the way it goes.

So I would just recommend clients think about the type of ring design that they had in mind. set priorities as to what’s important to them and then make a decision. If you're lucky enough have someone local that offers hand fabricated jewelry, go take a look and see for yourself.

Good luck!

Wow— is this the Victor Canera? I’m so honored you replied.

 

[nojs]

I think some designs actually benefit from casting. For example my studs were cast, and the workmanship and precision is incredible. I have had custom pieces done in both methods. The results vary more depending on stills of the bench rather than the method itself.

 

[LLJsmom]

Ok, I don't know if this can attributed to hand forged v cast, but my VC hand forged setting has very few visible scratches. Have had it for four years now. There is patina to be sure, but deeper scratches that are visible to my naked eye, very few.

The cast platinum solitaire setting has shown more visible scratches in just a few weeks. I wear both rings next to other rings.

So this is just an observation. Not sure if hand forged v cast is the reason.

 

[Victor Canera]

@nojs

The earrings you’re showing are one design where the difference wouldn’t be glaring between the two types of manufacturing styles. They’re a more timeless/ straightforward type of design with millgrain on the edges.They’re beautiful earrings btw.

There are designs like this where the manufacturing style wouldn’t make a big difference and there are others where the difference would be more obvious where the quality is built into the manufacturing technique. For example a cast men’s wedding band is fine but a truly fine men’s wedding band is machined using a lathe IMHO. Doing it that way gets you tolerance of like 0.01mm on the piece.

The ring I posted above as an example would have a quality advantage built into hand fabricating it that couldn’t be overcome by even the best cad\cam designer. This is also true in other designs like trilogies, five stone rings and some solitaires.

All the best,

 

[nojs]

@nojs

The earrings you’re showing are one design where the difference wouldn’t be glaring between the two types of manufacturing styles. They’re a more timeless/ straightforward type of design with millgrain on the edges.They’re beautiful earrings btw.

/—-/ All the best,

Than you! I have only seen pictures of your incredible work, but they seem absolutely exquisite.

Having done some silversmithing myself, I fully understand that for example the ring you posted would not look as refined if it were cast. And there definitely is the more artisanal aspect in hand forged items. What I wanted to say was that just the fact that something was cast doesn’t mean it’s going to look “rough”

 

[caolsen]

Just adding that die casting is a whole other form of casting where plates of metal are pressed together under HUGE industrial pressures ...so many of the lacey like filigree Art Deco pieces we see came about from this process. That much pressure does firm up the metal on an atomic level and you end with with very strong, dense pieces for their overall airiness.

This vintage, original platinum ring is a pretty standard example of that technique




And agree, cast pieces don’t always look rougher somehow. I have some incredibly silky, smooth cast pieces.

 

[Victor Canera]

@nojs

So just to clarify, the difference between hand fabricating something vs. casting doesn’t necessarily come down to a difference in the texture of the metal. Cast metal is rough but can be cleaned to a nice finish.

If you had a design for example that was a simple block that was 4mm square and cast it into metal, and set diamonds on it, the difference wouldn’t really be visible than if you had hand fabricated it. This also applies to rings that have plain shanks or “raised shanks” for example. The metal can be finished nicely after casting. IF that shank is a cathedral, then the difference starts becoming more obvious with hand fabricating it. The cathedral would objectively be nicer in a hand fabricated ring. The open gallery areas, like the head and other parts would also be objectively more nice with a hand fabricated ring. This is the reason why solitaire designs like these, trilogies, five stone rings are nicer IMHO when hand fabricated. I’m attaching a photo of a ring straight from the bench to give an example. There’s no physical way the gallery of this design can be as nicely done with casting. I'm showing the inside of the ring before it's even been polished prior to setting the diamonds... There’s no physical way the prongs could be done as nicely with casting. It’s a limitation of the technique that becomes apparent with ring designs like these. Now whether a client can appreciate this or would appreciate this is a different question.



Good luck

 

[denverappraiser]

Forging has three general problems.

1) it’s time consuming. Time=money in a very real since. In some cases it’s even quite a bit of money. A relatively ‘simple’ design can end up many times less expensive if it’s case.

2) Forging is more dependent on the skill of the jeweler. On the scale of these things, CAD is pretty easy. That’s the reason halo’s turned popular for example. Before CAD they were all handmade, and it’s HARD to do it well. It’s not a job for the cheapest jeweler in the shop. CAD work takes some skill, especially the engineering and the finishing, but a lot more people are good at it. As time advances, this gets worse. Top shelf fabricators are, in general, a bit older. They’ve been practicing for decades. The new benchies don’t get as much opportunity to practice because CAD is more popular. They’re practicing at other things. It’s a nasty cycle. It’s the same problem with engravers and enamel workers. ‘Old school’ techniques are getting lost and the people who have them can and do charge more.

3) Forging is, at it’s core, hand work. That makes it hard to do the exact same thing repeatedly, like building a double halo around an asymmetrical stone. Computers are GREAT at that sort of thing. This leads back to both of the above points. Bad forging is not an upgrade.

Casting has two major issues.
1) The act of hammering and stretching metals makes them stronger. Cast metals are softer.

2) When jewelers choose CAD/Cast for money reasons, that encourages cutting corners on some of the finishing steps because they are so time-consuming. Almost always, when there’s a problem with a casting, it’s not the casting itself that’s the issue, it’s the finishing work after. This is getting worse. CAD is getting easier and there are a lot of people out there doing it. The casting itself gets farmed out to specialized casting houses that do things in Argon atmospheres and are using computers to control their temperatures and the like. They’re very good at it. Finishing, on the other hand, gets a second shelf. The ‘designer’ gets kudos, but the assembler and the polisher may be apprentices who are being paid by the piece. That’s not the way to get the best work but it is the way to get the best price.

Which to choose is up to you. Neither is demonstrably ‘better’ and there are hybrids in between. It depends on your objectives. Fabrication using cast or machined parts is also common. Some of it is hand made and some is not.

 

[NicoleNeedsHelp]

@nojs

So just to clarify, the difference between hand fabricating something vs. casting doesn’t necessarily come down to a difference in the texture of the metal. Cast metal is rough but can be cleaned to a nice finish.

If you had a design for example that was a simple block that was 4mm square and cast it into metal, and set diamonds on it, the difference wouldn’t really be visible than if you had hand fabricated it. This also applies to rings that have plain shanks or “raised shanks” for example. The metal can be finished nicely after casting. IF that shank is a cathedral, then the difference starts becoming more obvious with hand fabricating it. The cathedral would objectively be nicer in a hand fabricated ring. The open gallery areas, like the head and other parts would also be objectively more nice with a hand fabricated ring. This is the reason why solitaire designs like these, trilogies, five stone rings are nicer IMHO when hand fabricated. I’m attaching a photo of a ring straight from the bench to give an example. There’s no physical way the gallery of this design can be as nicely done with casting. I'm showing the inside of the ring before it's even been polished prior to setting the diamonds... There’s no physical way the prongs could be done as nicely with casting. It’s a limitation of the technique that becomes apparent with ring designs like these. Now whether a client can appreciate this or would appreciate this is a different question.



Good luck

Geez! Look at that beauty. The shapes are amazing!

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Ok, I don't know if this can attributed to hand forged v cast, but my VC hand forged setting has very few visible scratches. Have had it for four years now. There is patina to be sure, but deeper scratches that are visible to my naked eye, very few.

The cast platinum solitaire setting has shown more visible scratches in just a few weeks. I wear both rings next to other rings.

So this is just an observation. Not sure if hand forged v cast is the reason.

It also has a huge amount to do with the alloys. I think Victor uses 90 plat /10 iridium, look in the ring and see what it says. Do you know what the other ring was made of? If it's 95 plat, 5 iridium, it's not as hard as the 90/10.