Has a well known vendor started LYING?

[ShinyPink]

My own experience has been spotty with folks on the vendor’s list. As a new collector, I kept things that should have gone back. However, I lacked the confidence and experience to realize gems were not quite what they should have been.

I kept one stone I was "eh" about because I didn't want to upset the vendor and have him question my knowledge. It's silly, because it's MY money, but I had no confidence. I should have come here after the stone arrived.

 

[Frost]

I try and describe everything as honestly as possible and I don't alter my pics in any way.

That's what I have a huge problem with and have for many years that a number of much loved CS vendors on these lists alter/edit/photoshop their photos so that the stones don't have a chance of looking like the glossy sanitised versions posted on their sites.

Just wanted to add a fact here - as a dealer not on that list, without a care in the world and without anything to gain or lose by saying this: Photoshopping/editing is absolutely essential to color correct gem photos. Not a single DSLR on this planet (no matter the cost or quality, you can get a $50k Hasselblad), not a single phone, or any other device shows color accurately on its own. Sure, there are exceptions and sometimes the color does turn out pretty close but it's still only 'pretty close' at best in the minority of cases and it's absolutely crucial to edit the photos out of the camera if one hopes to portray their gems accurately.

I understand why people in general gasp at the word "Photoshop" and "gems" in the same sentence but the simple factual truth is that if anyone hopes to portray gemstones truly accurately, not editing simply isn't an option. As a silly random example: half of the stones of a particular main hue look insanely good out of my camera so it's a routine thing to go to Photoshop and blast the saturation back down mercilessly until it looks exactly how it should. And that's just one example; every single color and every single stone ends up looking different and need to be separately edited with the monitor and the stone side by side in daylight. It's extremely time consuming and takes a lot of focus, but it's necessary if one hopes to build trust/integrity/a normal business.

Just the other side of the same coin. I'll try to make a thread someday to show it in practice with examples and a walkthrough.

 

[AGBF]

Just wanted to add a fact here - as a dealer not on that list, without a care in the world and without anything to gain or lose by saying this: Photoshopping/editing is absolutely essential to color correct gem photos.

Wow. I sure found this to be the case when I was trying to post a photo with the correct color of my own red spinel! I had an AGL certificate saying it was a "true red" (if I recall the wording correctly) and photographs I took showing it looked like a grape. And not a red grape, either. A purple grape. A neon purple grape. If I hadn't fooled around with the color on my photo, everyone who saw it would have gotten a distinctly odd impression of what my stone looked like.

 

[Rfisher]

I don't believe photoshopping is related to OP's question/statement at all
But since on that sidetrack -
I think it's a huge leap in difference to alter a photo to depict more closely to what the eye sees in person. (Monitors differning notwithstanding)
Vs altering a photo to show a more 'desirable' specimen. Especially if that item is up for sale.

 

[kenny]

I don't believe photoshopping is related to OP's question/statement at all
But since on that sidetrack -
I think it's a huge leap in difference to alter a photo to depict more closely to what the eye sees in person. (Monitors differning notwithstanding)
Vs altering a photo to show a more 'desirable' specimen. Especially if that item is up for sale.

+1000

I strongly agree.
There's nothing magically-accurate about what comes directly out of any camera, even my $3,200 Nikon D810, with my $2,000 200mm f4 D Nikon Nikkor macro lens.
Cameras can only make their best guess on exposure.
The reflective and optical properties of specialized subjects like gems fool the light meters in cameras.
That's why (with a goal of truth and accuracy, not deception) I Photoshop around 99% of the pics I take.

The goal is truth.
Using the camera is step one.
Post processing is step two.
If I didn't do step two my pics would be less truthful.

I wish more people did step two.
I wish everyone would stop thinking of Photoshopping as always cheating.

That said, yes, Photoshop obviously can be used to deceive and make a gem look better than it is.
But Photoshop itself is no more sinister than a kitchen knife, which also can be used for good or bad purposes.

 

[theredspinel]

Can't believe the same people that are offended at reading conscice to the point titles I.e is a well known vendor *LYING*? are also offended at not knowing *who* is lying.

Seriously. Which is it?! Because you either read the thread and want to gossip (and can't without names so you're pissed) or you clicked on this thread hoping for some gossip (ie names) and are pissed you don't have any.

You write threads in your writing style and I'll write in mine. Too interesting or too boring you say? Frankly I couldn't care less.

 

[theredspinel]

I don't believe photoshopping is related to OP's question/statement at all
But since on that sidetrack -
I think it's a huge leap in difference to alter a photo to depict more closely to what the eye sees in person. (Monitors differning notwithstanding)
Vs altering a photo to show a more 'desirable' specimen. Especially if that item is up for sale.

Rfisher

99% of the posts here arent anything to do with my opening post, in fact the only post that actually corresponds to my initial opening post is yours haha. I remember your ring drama with Yvonne and some of those points you brought up back then, thanks again.

I basically planted a seed (didn't check what seed). I've come back to a forest of Apple, Orange, Birch, Oak and Banana trees. :/

And some weeds! Its interesting...!

I like the differing off shoot of convos we've had here.

 

[ShinyPink]

I like the differing off shoot of convos we've had here.

I'm happy to talk about my dogs to lighten the mood!

 

[theredspinel]

I'm happy to talk about my dogs to lighten the mood!

You deserve a dog joke!

What does a scientist's dog do with bones?



Barium.

 

[AGBF]

either read the thread and want to gossip (and can't without names so you're pissed) or you clicked on this thread hoping for some gossip (ie names) and are pissed you don't have any.

A third possibility (not meaning that other possibilities beyond a third are excluded): you really do not need or want a name; are quite content with the thread as it is; and have found it informative and also entertaining....

 

[arkieb1]

Just wanted to add a fact here - as a dealer not on that list, without a care in the world and without anything to gain or lose by saying this: Photoshopping/editing is absolutely essential to color correct gem photos. Not a single DSLR on this planet (no matter the cost or quality, you can get a $50k Hasselblad), not a single phone, or any other device shows color accurately on its own. Sure, there are exceptions and sometimes the color does turn out pretty close but it's still only 'pretty close' at best in the minority of cases and it's absolutely crucial to edit the photos out of the camera if one hopes to portray their gems accurately.

I understand why people in general gasp at the word "Photoshop" and "gems" in the same sentence but the simple factual truth is that if anyone hopes to portray gemstones truly accurately, not editing simply isn't an option. As a silly random example: half of the stones of a particular main hue look insanely good out of my camera so it's a routine thing to go to Photoshop and blast the saturation back down mercilessly until it looks exactly how it should. And that's just one example; every single color and every single stone ends up looking different and need to be separately edited with the monitor and the stone side by side in daylight. It's extremely time consuming and takes a lot of focus, but it's necessary if one hopes to build trust/integrity/a normal business.

Just the other side of the same coin. I'll try to make a thread someday to show it in practice with examples and a walkthrough.

I agree with the other posters colour correcting to make the stones appear more accurate is one thing, but time after time I've received stones that have been edited to look NOTHING like their photos. And in fact when I can take a more accurate colour photo of their stones with my Iphone than their photoshopped images that tells me something is amiss.

 

[YadaYadaYada]

Eh, I didn't read the thread to have something to gossip about unless my cat would be interested which I doubt. I actually was genuinely interested in what the OP had to say, maybe there is some merit, maybe not. Was the title a bit sensational? Maybe, but some people are more dramatic than others, whatever. I didn't get the point of the thread and now I really don't get why the OP had to go on the attack about those who read and responded in a questioning manner.

Not offended, just telling it like it is.

 

[lilmosun]

I consider a vendor dishonest when they intentionally misrepresent (alter pictures, deny known treatments, bait & switch etc) and/or won't stand behind their product if found otherwise and/or don't honor stated return policies.

My local jeweler is as honest as they come but his knowledge of colored stones is abysmal and I roll my eyes at some of his statements/opinions but would never accuse him of being a liar. (I do make any expensive purchase contingent upon a certificate with him though) As others have stated, the definition of pink sapphire versus ruby isn't agreed upon industry wise. Picture accuracy can vary for a variety of reasons and visual descriptions are just opinions. YMMV with just about any vendor. Why we need solid return policies even from reputable vendors. Where I struggled with the original post is that the evidence suggested doesn't support the proposed judgement - at least by my definition. And one that is reputation threatening even by the OP's admission. But as I've learned on the internet, posts don't always come across as intended (mine included).

A lot about colored stones is subjective. There are many posts here where people come to PS looking for knowledgeable opinions and you see disagreement on what folks see all over the place. It doesn't make anyone a liar imo. Whether its opinions on PS (about a stone or vendor), a vendors description or photos or reputation - they are just different perspectives to be taken into consideration when making one's own purchase decisions as in the end, all that matters is whether the stone meets your own personal criteria.

 

[minousbijoux]

I don't believe photoshopping is related to OP's question/statement at all
But since on that sidetrack -
I think it's a huge leap in difference to alter a photo to depict more closely to what the eye sees in person. (Monitors differning notwithstanding)
Vs altering a photo to show a more 'desirable' specimen. Especially if that item is up for sale.

This. Its well understood that in order to accurately represent the appearance of gemstones, its often necessary to adjust hue, tone, saturation level, etc. That is fine. What we are referring to is the practice of vendors who escalate saturation, minimize or hide flaws, and otherwise use photoshop tricks in order to make the stone look considerably better than it is. Actions not related to accuracy at all.

 

[kenny]

... 99% of the posts here aren't anything to do with my opening post

I wouldn't take it personally.
Most threads veer off in many directions.

 

[Frost]

I agree with the other posters colour correcting to make the stones appear more accurate is one thing, but time after time I've received stones that have been edited to look NOTHING like their photos. And in fact when I can take a more accurate colour photo of their stones with my Iphone than their photoshopped images that tells me something is amiss.

This. Its well understood that in order to accurately represent the appearance of gemstones, its often necessary to adjust hue, tone, saturation level, etc. That is fine. What we are referring to is the practice of vendors who escalate saturation, minimize or hide flaws, and otherwise use photoshop tricks in order to make the stone look considerably better than it is. Actions not related to accuracy at all.

Those are some really bad vendors, in that case. And I'm sure most of the Internet falls under that category, so vigilance and finding ways to prevent this from happening - as we are here - are necessary.

I personally find it puzzling because returns get so expensive sometimes that doing funny stuff to images almost guarantees losses. But editing stuff to make it look accurate on the other hand practically guarantees a sale if whoever you're sending it to understands (or is helped to understand) what they're buying because no one ends up being disappointed by what they picked. Transparent communication and knowledge of the material on both sides is a big part of this too I guess, but that again needs a knowledgeable buyer who knows both what they're looking for and at. And even if they don't, it should be the vendor's responsibility to manage expectations and explain quality - same like almost any other trade.

If everyone kept returning stones like that and telling the vendor that images looked way too good, they'd probably get the idea after a while. But as I've seen mentioned in places on this forum, it's possible that most of their clients simply don't know any better and assume that's normal. Of course such vendors are to blame for this.

 

[nojs]

It is such a hassle returning stones because of customs that I rarely buy anything online anymore. Much better to buy in person.

There is one vendor that comes in mind, whose photos always look gorgeous and super saturated. I tend to look at their videos when the stone turns and is not directly in the spotlight. That is when you see the true color, often not what you initially expected.

 

[Frost]

It is such a hassle returning stones because of customs that I rarely buy anything online anymore. Much better to buy in person.

There is one vendor that comes in mind, whose photos always look gorgeous and super saturated. I tend to look at their videos when the stone turns and is not directly in the spotlight. That is when you see the true color, often not what you initially expected.

Totally agree, no better way to buy than in person. Even that is sometimes difficult and risky enough (if you have recutting in mind, for example).

Not sure what you were referring to when you mentioned "when the stone turns" (and again, not that it makes any difference to me since I'm sure none of all the comments have anything to do with me) but when stones turn, of course color and brightness change. That's normal; it doesn't say anything about color accuracy.

Almost no doubly refractive gems show the same color in different directions, and even in single refractive ones there's a difference between face up and turned to the side/pavilion. And brightness and brilliance change too. The way to judge is face up, at 90 degrees to the table, and that's the color/brightness that a stone is considered to be.

Let's say you're looking at a random stone: you can have for example a trade ideal hue face up, a very zoned stone face-down or sideways, but the stone is still rightly called trade ideal and judged (by labs and others) and priced (by sellers) as such if that is its color face up. That's normal and comes from the practical uses of these things (i.e. setting to be seen face up).

That said, of course it helps if a stone is more even overall and not something that shows rainbows the second it's tilted. And of course it's a different story if there's a massive photo/video disconnect in general with the colors. Devices see colors differently, but they should be brought together into accurate depiction by careful and critical editing. It's a pain the ... sometimes but that's work.

 

[theredspinel]

I wouldn't take it personally.
Most threads veer off in many directions.

Oh absolutely (I struggle to take things that *are* personal...personally ) I just meant the thread has gained such momentum in many different directions mostly all which have nothing to do with the opening post.

However it's all interesting reading none the less, I do like generating gem related conversation!

 

[theredspinel]

Eh, I didn't read the thread to have something to gossip about unless my cat would be interested which I doubt. I actually was genuinely interested in what the OP had to say, maybe there is some merit, maybe not. Was the title a bit sensational? Maybe, but some people are more dramatic than others, whatever. I didn't get the point of the thread and now I really don't get why the OP had to go on the attack about those who read and responded in a questioning manner.

Not offended, just telling it like it is.

Hi Stephanie

OP here. Let's step aside from the thread topic for a moment... I find it extremely rude to talk about "the OP" in third person like I am not right here...

If you want to know some thing ie why the 'OP went on an attack', just ask me rather then asking the thin air in the room.

I didn't go on an attack at all - I simply didn't understand the fallacy of some posters acting like getting the name of a vendor that may *or may not have* done much wrong was for the good of "the people" and some sort of noble request.

Nothing noble or "for the people" about jumping on an attack band wagon. This thread was created so I might understand if a well loved well known vendor (well loved BY me also no doubt) was beginning to act in what I will call a corrupt manner and a few of the responses have given me some clarity I need.

In light of those 2 or 3 responses, I'm still musing over if they are intentionally lying to sell or if they are just becoming sloppy. I really hope it's the latter.

 

[YadaYadaYada]

@theredspinel, I apologize for referring to you in the third person.

My impression was that people were not trying to gang up but genuinely had questions about intent, especially when the thread title has "LYING" in big capital letters, kind of gets people worked up and uneasy. That said when you have a thread that could possibly have some controversy you are going to get people that have a big problem with it and express that in a comment. I have been there myself.

You did however generalize that posters were essentially clucking hens looking for some gossip, so if you felt attacked then they probably did too you know?

 

[mastercutgems]

Hello All ;

I have read most everything on this post and as a vendor I would want to know if a person that is looking at my gems is seeing something that is not in the description or photo. We all make mistakes, have employees that do certain things for us and maybe we as the cutter/owner/etc. did not catch it or just missed it.

We are all human on here and all can and do make mistakes. If it is an intentional mistake, i.e. fudging the truth; i.e lying... I would want my hand called out; kindly and privately !!! I know I have missed things before and when going back over things I say " wow how did I miss that scratch, window, nick, zoning, etc., especially when dealing with volume... It happens and I think it is just looking after each other to point it out in a polite manner to the cutter, designer, website owner, etc... I know I have had more than a few on here tell me how badly I take photos... I did not get mad; I just do and did the best I could. It would have been nice if they had the common decency to have emailed me and said; Dana your pictures stink you might want to do this or that to help your pictures look better???

I think lack of communication between vendor and perspective client is a bad thing; and I welcome anyone to privately tell me where my weaknesses lie; and then it is up to me to put forth the effort to correct or improve my skills in either cutting and/or descriptions/photography... I know from my standpoint I had to do it all; get the rough, cut, photo, load, edit, post, mail, issue returns, communicate on emails, etc. then my Lovely wife came into the business and she does things different; not better or worse but different and there is and was a learning curve to figure out who did what best. Still learning...

But if a client has legitimate issues with a gem, photo, description that they feel is misleading to others I suggest they contact the vendor and tell them what you are seeing and to be honest it may help them to either be more observant of their selling practice or it will let them know other people are watching and seeing something that could be taken as a deceitful practice and if they continue to be blatant with their deceit; then tell them you will make others aware of their practice...
This is just one man's view of this and what I would want done to me if I was the vendor.
Just an opinion.
Have a great Sunday...
Most Respectfully;

Dana Reynolds
ASG Certified
Supreme master gem Cutter
#96CGE42

 

[Barrett]

well damn...there goes my use of the terms "open" and "transparent".....
I have been selling these stones wrong all along, I guess...huh.
Nothing wrong with the term "open" on these stones, is there?
...."Look how the big and open that window is"....hehehe
Clearly the massive bay window in the center, makes it very transparent, as well. No denying that..LOL
..... "These stone are as transparent as they come. LOOK at how easily you can see straight through the stone.... that's how clear it is"

Sorry, was attempting the act of being sarcastic and funny above, but all I hear are crickets now. sigh...
Guess I will go back to my hunt for the most beautiful brown gemstone I can find.

Like I have always said, if your dealing with a pricescoper buying gemstones, then best to present the facts as they are, and not as you see fit to sell it quickly and easily.
I am surprised any long time dealer of PS members, would even chance the "iffy" descriptions RP posted above.

 

[chatoyancy]

well damn...there goes my use of the terms "open" and "transparent".....
I have been selling these stones wrong all along, I guess...huh.
Nothing wrong with the term "open" on these stones, is there?
...."Look how the big and open that window is"....hehehe
Clearly the massive bay window in the center, makes it very transparent, as well. No denying that..LOL
..... "These stone are as transparent as they come. LOOK at how easily you can see straight through the stone.... that's how clear it is"

Sorry, was attempting the act of being sarcastic and funny above, but all I hear are crickets now. sigh...
Guess I will go back to my hunt for the most beautiful brown gemstone I can find.

Like I have always said, if your dealing with a pricescoper buying gemstones, then best to present the facts as they are, and not as you see fit to sell it quickly and easily.
I am surprised any long time dealer of PS members, would even chance the "iffy" descriptions RP posted above.

Those windows would bring more light into my kitchen. It would probably be cheaper than repainting my cabinets.