Have anyone bought roughs

[Harriet]

Date: 6/6/2009 10:15:35 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover
True CMW. Also, to counter that, being expensive isn''t a requirement for being a vivid or beautiful stone, and I should have clarified that earlier. Typically, vivid stones are more expensive, but you can find some less marketed or softer stones, such as danburite, in a vivid color for an affordable price. BTW, I think Harriet probably did well in her choice on that stone, and I was just teasing her earlier, as I usually do, about getting better pictures of her gems.

If you can find me more danburite of that colour, I will master that camera.

 

[T L]

If I find it, I''m not telling you!!

 

[PrecisionGem]

As far as US cuttings getting not being able to get good rough, this is true with sapphire, emerald and ruby. But it''s not true with almost all of the other stones. What is true is that many of the cutters will not pay the price for really fine rough. So you end up with really nice cutting, on not so nice stones. In the main stream jewelry business the big 4 (diamond, sapphire, ruby, emerald) make up most of the sales. Most mall type stores have very little to offer other than these. Maybe some amethyst citrine and aquamarine. The aqua you see is almost always very pale nothing like my avitar. As cutters, our niche where we can get top material is: tourmaline, garnet and then the more rare or less known stones.

Any cutter who is selling blue sapphire from Asia is buying cut stones, and recutting them. These stone simply are not available rough, there are even laws in the countries that they are found in that bans the export of them in the rough state. But if you are willing to pay the price, and know the right sources top color and quality stones are available, in other materials. One of the problems right now is that consumers are not willing to pay the price. I passes on a few 15 to 25 chrome tourmalines that were just perfect color. These would have cut stones 5 to 9 or cts, but would have need to have been sold for around $1000 per ct. I know that would be a tough sell in todays market. It''s hard to invest $4000 or more one one stone, knowing you are going to sit with it for maybe a few years before you sell it.

The other thing that happens is often stones are only sold in parcels, and you need to take the whole parcel. This can be frustrating, but often the broker you are working with doesn''t own the stones, so he can''t break the parcel. Last January, I was offered in person, a parcel of spinel from Mahenge, in top top hot pink. Just like the smaller stones I have been cutting but larger. The problem was I needed to take the whole parcel and it was $150,000.

 

[chrono]

Gene,
If the US cutters can''t afford the parcels, who are buying these expensive gemstones?

 

[T L]

I'm not an expert in colored stone rough buying, but I would imagine that connections in this industry are also very important, and those connections are easier when one is closer to the mine. Just an assumption on my part.

 

[FrekeChild]

Date: 6/5/2009 11:55:01 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover

Date: 6/5/2009 11:53:07 PM
Author: FrekeChild

Date: 6/5/2009 11:41:08 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover
Freke,

I respect your opinion, and I''m very happy you are happy with Dan''s cutting and his stones, and I''m glad you gave your experiences. However, with all due respect, I''m entitled to my opinion as well. It''s called Freedom of Speech. Thank you.

No one said anything about taking away your freedom of speech, so don''t accuse me of such things.

I happen to disagree with you on a lot of things regarding gemstones and I think that you can come off as a know-it-all. It gets old. Because you don''t know it all. None of us do.

Oh yeah, and seeing one stone in person does not make you an expert on one cutter''s skills.

I am not going to lower myself to name calling. You obviously have issues with me, and this is not the place for them.

FYI, telling you that you can come off as a know-it-all is not name calling. No where in my post did I say, "TL you are a know-it-all."

Just so we''re clear.

 

[psadmin]

Everyone Please Stay One Topic!

 

[MonkeyPie]

There are an awful lot of absolutes being made in this thread that are REALLY off, and based solely on the opinion of the posters. For the OP, I think it would be best to speak to an actual cutter - like Gene, Barry, Dan or Jeff - rather than asking any of us here, especially considering that none of us buy rough specifically to be cut. That is all.

 

[PrecisionGem]

Date: 6/6/2009 11:16:35 PM
Author: Chrono
Gene,

If the US cutters can''t afford the parcels, who are buying these expensive gemstones?

Most of the US cutters are a one man operation, and many of them other other jobs too, since it''s very difficult to make a decent living cutting stones. Of those people in the US who do cut, almost all do it as a hobby and don''t sell stones. Many are senior''s and basically cut CZ, colored glass or quartz. They join clubs, and cut for competition, where the quality of the meet points and polish is examined under a microscope. They may spend several weeks cutting one stone, and that stone is a lab created stone, which really could only be sold for a few dollars.

So who buys these expensive parcel? Most are bought by large cutting houses either in South America or Asia, and the stones are cut with windows, poor meets, and rough polish. I talked with one guy who runs a cutting house in China a few years ago in Tucson, and he told me each cutter must produce 30 stones a day. They cut in an assembly line fashion, on person dops, one shapes and the next polishes, the next transfers and the the process continues for the crown.

That''s not to say that all cutters don''t spend a lot of money on rough. Some do

But you need to pick where to spend your money based on what''s selling. You can see from members on Pricescope the past year what has been selling is stones from $50 to $350 range, with most being maybe $200. Had I bought that expensive spinel parcel, I doubt I would have sold many stones from it, since most would have been in the $3000 to $8000 range. It would have taken a long time get the original investment back.

For years I have been trying to organize a US cutters buying club, where maybe 5 or 6 guys would go in on a large parcel. So far I have had no luck with this. Most guys want to cut colored glass for $0.02 per ct.

 

[D&T]

Date: 6/7/2009 9:16:43 AM
Author: PrecisionGem

Date: 6/6/2009 11:16:35 PM
Author: Chrono
Gene,

If the US cutters can''t afford the parcels, who are buying these expensive gemstones?

Most of the US cutters are a one man operation, and many of them other other jobs too, since it''s very difficult to make a decent living cutting stones. Of those people in the US who do cut, almost all do it as a hobby and don''t sell stones. Many are senior''s and basically cut CZ, colored glass or quartz. They join clubs, and cut for competition, where the quality of the meet points and polish is examined under a microscope. They may spend several weeks cutting one stone, and that stone is a lab created stone, which really could only be sold for a few dollars.

So who buys these expensive parcel? Most are bought by large cutting houses either in South America or Asia, and the stones are cut with windows, poor meets, and rough polish. I talked with one guy who runs a cutting house in China a few years ago in Tucson, and he told me each cutter must produce 30 stones a day. They cut in an assembly line fashion, on person dops, one shapes and the next polishes, the next transfers and the the process continues for the crown.

That''s not to say that all cutters don''t spend a lot of money on rough. Some do

But you need to pick where to spend your money based on what''s selling. You can see from members on Pricescope the past year what has been selling is stones from $50 to $350 range, with most being maybe $200. Had I bought that expensive spinel parcel, I doubt I would have sold many stones from it, since most would have been in the $3000 to $8000 range. It would have taken a long time get the original investment back.

For years I have been trying to organize a US cutters buying club, where maybe 5 or 6 guys would go in on a large parcel. So far I have had no luck with this. Most guys want to cut colored glass for $0.02 per ct.

Gene- Very informative, thank you for chiming it, all the information on this thread has been very useful from a buyers perspective to the sellers/cutter''s perspective. Thank you to everyone whos been able to elicit more questions and answers on my behalf much appreciated!

 

[Ryon]

I think your both very helpful and if you don''t agree on one thing there is nothing wrong with that.

 

[chrono]

Date: 6/7/2009 9:16:43 AM
Author: PrecisionGem

Most of the US cutters are a one man operation, and many of them other other jobs too, since it''s very difficult to make a decent living cutting stones. Of those people in the US who do cut, almost all do it as a hobby and don''t sell stones. Many are senior''s and basically cut CZ, colored glass or quartz. They join clubs, and cut for competition, where the quality of the meet points and polish is examined under a microscope. They may spend several weeks cutting one stone, and that stone is a lab created stone, which really could only be sold for a few dollars.

So who buys these expensive parcel? Most are bought by large cutting houses either in South America or Asia, and the stones are cut with windows, poor meets, and rough polish. I talked with one guy who runs a cutting house in China a few years ago in Tucson, and he told me each cutter must produce 30 stones a day. They cut in an assembly line fashion, on person dops, one shapes and the next polishes, the next transfers and the the process continues for the crown.

That''s not to say that all cutters don''t spend a lot of money on rough. Some do

But you need to pick where to spend your money based on what''s selling. You can see from members on Pricescope the past year what has been selling is stones from $50 to $350 range, with most being maybe $200. Had I bought that expensive spinel parcel, I doubt I would have sold many stones from it, since most would have been in the $3000 to $8000 range. It would have taken a long time get the original investment back.

For years I have been trying to organize a US cutters buying club, where maybe 5 or 6 guys would go in on a large parcel. So far I have had no luck with this. Most guys want to cut colored glass for $0.02 per ct.

Gene,
This would be great if it works out. So you are saying the large cutting houses in Asia and SA are snapping up these $10K to $15K parcels of fine quality rough? If that''s the case, where are they being sold? I would love to get my hands on something with a fabulous colour, regardless of the cut because a badly cut stone can always be "fixed" up later.

 

[T L]

Chrono,
I think these are sold to American and European dealers that jack up the prices to the consumer. The Japanese market buys many of these stones as well since they are into vivid colored exotic gems.

 

[chrono]

TL,
I believe you that the Japanese love their coloured gemstones but I expect them to go for decently cut stones, with my understanding of their culture. Nothing with gaping windows or something else obviously off.

 

[T L]

Date: 6/7/2009 11:10:07 PM
Author: Chrono
TL,
I believe you that the Japanese love their coloured gemstones but I expect them to go for decently cut stones, with my understanding of their culture. Nothing with gaping windows or something else obviously off.

I would imagine they are recut before selling them, but I do not know for sure. I am aware of one Thai seller that sells a lot to the Japanese and then sells the rest to the remaining consumer markets because he gets the most $$$ from the Japanese for his top goods. At least that's what he told me.

Gene will probably chime in with more accurate info though.

 

[Lovinggems]

Date: 6/7/2009 11:13:18 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover

Date: 6/7/2009 11:10:07 PM
Author: Chrono
TL,
I believe you that the Japanese love their coloured gemstones but I expect them to go for decently cut stones, with my understanding of their culture. Nothing with gaping windows or something else obviously off.

I would imagine they are recut before selling them, but I do not know for sure. I am aware of one Thai seller that sells a lot to the Japanese and then sells the rest to the remaining consumer markets because he gets the most $$$ from the Japanese for his top goods. At least that''s what he told me.

Gene will probably chime in with more accurate info though.

Probably true, they buy all the best seafood and fruits so the locals don''t even get to see these top quality products produced in their own countries.

 

[LtlFirecracker]

Gene and Michael E, thanks for chiming in on this topic, very informative, and gives me insight as to why you buy the stones you do.

I didn''t realize buying rough would be such a hard thing to do. This thread has made me realize that unless I am buying rough for collection purposes (I have seen lots of cool rough aqua at shows that the owner has no intension of cutting), that I will leave that too the expert and stick to evaluating cut, color, and clarity.

 

[Jeffrey Hunt]

Hi Everyone,

This is my first post here on Pricescope. A very interesting thread, and there is something I would like to add.

There is a real danger purchasing rough for recutting, you’ll purchase one piece, two, then ten. That’s when you end up deciding to learn how to facet yourself. It’s a treacherous and infectious pastime that will provide you with hours of frustration and joy while you learn. If you love stones, and have purchased rough with the idea of having it faceted, well, the next step is to learn how yourself!

I’ve been talking with David Dawson these last several days and he just finished up a 12 ct plus sunstone for a client with the rough provided by the client. David is a meticulous faceter and is pretty hard on his own work – the sign of a true master. He faceted a Spinel for me last month with quite a few inclusions and did a wonderful job on that too. In my opinion his final polish is what really makes his stones the highest quality work. Spectacular.

David, like Gene mentioned in an earlier post, facets in his spare time – around his full time work. Given the quality of his faceting, I think his docket will fill up very quickly.

Kind Regards,

Jeff

 

[D&T]

Date: 6/8/2009 2:17:52 AM
Author: Jeffrey Hunt
Hi Everyone,

This is my first post here on Pricescope. A very interesting thread, and there is something I would like to add.

There is a real danger purchasing rough for recutting, you’ll purchase one piece, two, then ten. That’s when you end up deciding to learn how to facet yourself. It’s a treacherous and infectious pastime that will provide you with hours of frustration and joy while you learn. If you love stones, and have purchased rough with the idea of having it faceted, well, the next step is to learn how yourself!

I’ve been talking with David Dawson these last several days and he just finished up a 12 ct plus sunstone for a client with the rough provided by the client. David is a meticulous faceter and is pretty hard on his own work – the sign of a true master. He faceted a Spinel for me last month with quite a few inclusions and did a wonderful job on that too. In my opinion his final polish is what really makes his stones the highest quality work. Spectacular.

David, like Gene mentioned in an earlier post, facets in his spare time – around his full time work. Given the quality of his faceting, I think his docket will fill up very quickly.

Kind Regards,

Jeff

Welcome to PS Jeff!

Did the client buy the rough from someone reputable, and not an auction house and would you happen to know what the carat rough started out at? I''m not one that likes to gamble let alone gambling with roughs. It''s interesting to me how/when and where it all goes from the mining side to who actually buys the top notch stones. I''m sorry I don''t know who David is,,, still New to the color side

and who all the cutters are, since I''ve only worked with a few.

 

[PrecisionGem]

Date: 6/7/2009 11:03:47 PM
Author: Chrono

Date: 6/7/2009 9:16:43 AM

Author: PrecisionGem


Most of the US cutters are a one man operation, and many of them other other jobs too, since it''s very difficult to make a decent living cutting stones. Of those people in the US who do cut, almost all do it as a hobby and don''t sell stones. Many are senior''s and basically cut CZ, colored glass or quartz. They join clubs, and cut for competition, where the quality of the meet points and polish is examined under a microscope. They may spend several weeks cutting one stone, and that stone is a lab created stone, which really could only be sold for a few dollars.


So who buys these expensive parcel? Most are bought by large cutting houses either in South America or Asia, and the stones are cut with windows, poor meets, and rough polish. I talked with one guy who runs a cutting house in China a few years ago in Tucson, and he told me each cutter must produce 30 stones a day. They cut in an assembly line fashion, on person dops, one shapes and the next polishes, the next transfers and the the process continues for the crown.


That''s not to say that all cutters don''t spend a lot of money on rough. Some do

But you need to pick where to spend your money based on what''s selling. You can see from members on Pricescope the past year what has been selling is stones from $50 to $350 range, with most being maybe $200. Had I bought that expensive spinel parcel, I doubt I would have sold many stones from it, since most would have been in the $3000 to $8000 range. It would have taken a long time get the original investment back.


For years I have been trying to organize a US cutters buying club, where maybe 5 or 6 guys would go in on a large parcel. So far I have had no luck with this. Most guys want to cut colored glass for $0.02 per ct.

Gene,

This would be great if it works out. So you are saying the large cutting houses in Asia and SA are snapping up these $10K to $15K parcels of fine quality rough? If that''s the case, where are they being sold? I would love to get my hands on something with a fabulous colour, regardless of the cut because a badly cut stone can always be ''fixed'' up later.

You''re missing a zero there... $150k not $15K. I''ll buy a $10k parcel if it''s the right stones. Often what happens with the large parcels is there is a lot of junk in them, and really small stones. There was a parcel of really fantastic color blue slight green tourmaline from Afghanistan offered 2 years ago in Tucson. The price was around $100,000 for the parcel, and they wouldn''t split it up. The problem was this, there were maybe 10 really nice larger pieces, but at least 60% of the parcel was small stuff, and another 15% really small. Tourmaline grows naturally in long thin pencil like crystals, so you get these 2 to 3 ct stones that are only 3 mm x 3 mm x 9 mm. There isn''t much you can do with these, and most American cutters wouldn''t work on something so small. You can''t afford to put 3 hours of cutting time into a stone that is going to finish up only 1/4 ct. But if you pay your cutters $0.05 per hour, now you can make money on these stones. They cab the lower quality stones, and make beads out of the really crappy stuff.

So really if I was going to buy a parcel like that, I''d need to send most of it overseas to be cut, and that''s not my thing.

But there are good stones to be had, they are not easy to find, and it takes years to develop the contacts and connections to get them, and you are not going to show up and buy just one stone.

 

[Jeffrey Hunt]

ote>Welcome to PS Jeff!

Did the client buy the rough from someone reputable, and not an auction house and would you happen to know what the carat rough started out at? I''m not one that likes to gamble let alone gambling with roughs. It''s interesting to me how/when and where it all goes from the mining side to who actually buys the top notch stones. I''m sorry I don''t know who David is,,, still New to the color side

and who all the cutters are, since I''ve only worked with a few.

Hi D&T

I''m not sure the original source of the sunstone, but I believe the client imports and sells rough from Tanzania, I could be wrong though.

David Dawson has a facebook page, I believe, with photos and ct weight of the sunstone, you might have to use google. I think he''s a member of pricescope too, but I''m not sure.

Here''s a link to a great place to purchase rough if you are just getting started, or thinking about it. Absolutely reputable rough dealer, anything purchased from Hilmar Bosch that you don''t like, can be sent back - to an address in the U.S. I believe. I''m assuming many readers know of this source though. http://www.africangemstones.co.za/ He''s been around for a long time.

Jeff

 

[Ryon]

Date: 6/7/2009 9:16:43 AM
Author: PrecisionGem

Date: 6/6/2009 11:16:35 PM
Author: Chrono
Gene,

If the US cutters can''t afford the parcels, who are buying these expensive gemstones?

Most of the US cutters are a one man operation, and many of them other other jobs too, since it''s very difficult to make a decent living cutting stones. Of those people in the US who do cut, almost all do it as a hobby and don''t sell stones. Many are senior''s and basically cut CZ, colored glass or quartz. They join clubs, and cut for competition, where the quality of the meet points and polish is examined under a microscope. They may spend several weeks cutting one stone, and that stone is a lab created stone, which really could only be sold for a few dollars.

So who buys these expensive parcel? Most are bought by large cutting houses either in South America or Asia, and the stones are cut with windows, poor meets, and rough polish. I talked with one guy who runs a cutting house in China a few years ago in Tucson, and he told me each cutter must produce 30 stones a day. They cut in an assembly line fashion, on person dops, one shapes and the next polishes, the next transfers and the the process continues for the crown.

That''s not to say that all cutters don''t spend a lot of money on rough. Some do

But you need to pick where to spend your money based on what''s selling. You can see from members on Pricescope the past year what has been selling is stones from $50 to $350 range, with most being maybe $200. Had I bought that expensive spinel parcel, I doubt I would have sold many stones from it, since most would have been in the $3000 to $8000 range. It would have taken a long time get the original investment back.

For years I have been trying to organize a US cutters buying club, where maybe 5 or 6 guys would go in on a large parcel. So far I have had no luck with this. Most guys want to cut colored glass for $0.02 per ct.

That would be really nice if you get some people to help you out instead of going solo all the time =/
I wish I knew how to cut, maybe I will practice next summer ((have no idea where to start)) Be a worthwhile hobby and I can make money off of it. I bet its time comsuming and not always fun, yet very rewarding.

 

[Roger Dery]

Hi Ryon,
You stated: "That would be really nice if you get some people to help you out instead of going solo all the time =/ I wish I knew how to cut, maybe I will practice next summer ((have no idea where to start)) Be a worthwhile hobby and I can make money off of it. I bet its time comsuming and not always fun, yet very rewarding. "

You may have missed this thread....
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/has-anyone-taken-a-faceting-class.117021/

There are several places listed where one can go an learn how to facet. Some may be more fun than others. The two places in the south would be great for building relationships and having interesting chats on the porch in the evenings with other gem-aholics.