Have you ever unknowingly purchased a synthetic Sapphire or other CS?

[SparkliesLuver]

I@SparkliesLuver I am curious, was the stone that turned out to be synthetic that you purchased from a PS vendor from one of the precision cutters, or one of the vendors that are more known for stone flipping?

They are more on the "stone flipping" side, I'd say. Sometimes they have other people precision cut their stones but most often they sell them as-is.

 

[Deia]

That’s really great of the seller. Enjoy the ring, it IS beautiful!

 

[canuk-gal]

HI:

I nearly bought a perfect Spess. I took my savvy PS pal with me and she asked to see it under a scope. She declared it to be "too perfect|". I later received a call from the vendor, who informed me it was a synthetic--they had NO idea and were sufficiently embarrassed.

cheers--Sharon

 

[2Neesers]

That’s really great of the seller. Enjoy the ring, it IS beautiful!

I do appreciate the partial refund, which was around 20% of what I paid for the ring. I really wasn't expecting anything at all from her, but this will be a nice start toward a replacement stone. I'll have to save up quite a bit more funds, since sapphires of this size are $$$.

HI:

I nearly bought a perfect Spess. I took my savvy PS pal with me and she asked to see it under a scope. She declared it to be "too perfect|". I later received a call from the vendor, who informed me it was a synthetic--they had NO idea and were sufficiently embarrassed.

cheers--Sharon

Oh my! I had no idea that Spess was one we had to watch out for too

 

[Arcadian]

I do appreciate the partial refund, which was around 20% of what I paid for the ring. I really wasn't expecting anything at all from her, but this will be a nice start toward a replacement stone. I'll have to save up quite a bit more funds, since sapphires of this size are $$$.


Oh my! I had no idea that Spess was one we had to watch out for too

Seriously you have to watch out for pretty much everything. Lots of money in gems so pretty much any and everything can be faked if there's enough money into it

I have a pretty basic testing kit that helps to confirm most suspicions. Then at that point, I weigh if its worth sending to a lab or not if I need further confirmation. That itty bitty kit of mine has been helpful over the years, and has probably caused me to send back many a stone...lol

I'm glad that your seller has issued a partial refund at least, as thats very generous. Trust but verify...that can never be said enough around here when it comes to even known vendors.

 

[T L]

I do appreciate the partial refund, which was around 20% of what I paid for the ring. I really wasn't expecting anything at all from her, but this will be a nice start toward a replacement stone. I'll have to save up quite a bit more funds, since sapphires of this size are $$$.


Oh my! I had no idea that Spess was one we had to watch out for too

Probably synthetic orange corundum. I don't think they've learned to synthesize spessartite garnet.

 

[2Neesers]

Seriously you have to watch out for pretty much everything. Lots of money in gems so pretty much any and everything can be faked if there's enough money into it

I have a pretty basic testing kit that helps to confirm most suspicions. Then at that point, I weigh if its worth sending to a lab or not if I need further confirmation. That itty bitty kit of mine has been helpful over the years, and has probably caused me to send back many a stone...lol

I'm glad that your seller has issued a partial refund at least, as thats very generous. Trust but verify...that can never be said enough around here when it comes to even known vendors.

@Arcadian would you mind sharing what the items are in your test kit? I would be interested in purchasing some or all of the items in your kit. It sounds like it has been very helpful.

 

[Arcadian]

@Arcadian would you mind sharing what the items are in your test kit? I would be interested in purchasing some or all of the items in your kit. It sounds like it has been very helpful.

I wasn't kidding when I said basic...lol

1. Chelsea Filter - got one off ebay
   
2. Refractometer - got one off ebay
   
3. loupe (basic 10x) various why I have so many is a mystery...lol
4. microscope - this was a garage sale score with zeiss glass and 1000x maginifcation
   
5. several sets of tweezers - A must. I have metal and rubber tipped ones for the softer stuff
6. spectrascope - I hardly ever used it. you need a way to hold the gem, and light the gem, and certain types of light can contaminate and so on. Pain in the rear this damn thing. (obviously I'm doing something wrong )
   
7. black light - can be really helpful but also fun

This set took me a couple of years to get and understand why I needed it. and of course If I had more time and more fun money I'd get more stuff and take some classes, but this is whats worked well for me as it allowed me to do a basic analysis, and then decide if sending to an independent lab for further analysis was worth it.

Frankly this forum fails a bit when it comes to USING the tools side of things. I get why, consumer board and it ain't diamonds. There are forums out there that delve into the scientific side of gemstones and testing methods, which if you're trying to avoid being taken, that type of knowledge on the part of the consumer is a must.

basically that means I had to go to other forums in order to learn what this stuff was and how to use it and, I still think we're not allowed to mention those forums. Such is life.

Outside of the tools, this place shines as there is so much other information gets brought here. Real factual information on gem properties, color, treatments. It might not always get updated, but it does eventually get here.

 

[Frost]

1. spectrascope - I hardly ever used it. you need a way to hold the gem, and light the gem, and certain types of light can contaminate and so on. Pain in the rear this damn thing. (obviously I'm doing something wrong )

Option A:
You get a stand (and/or a spectroscope) like this: http://gemologyproject.com/wiki/images/6/68/Opl.jpg and then you set it up like this: http://gemologyproject.com/wiki/images/a/ae/Spectroscope_use.jpg

Illumination can be a fiber optic light, for example, many microscopes come equipped with one on the side and work perfectly for this.

Option B:
Use the same fiber optic at max light setting and fix it into a vertical position (smooth, so it stands up) or hold it vertically with one hand. Place the stone table down onto the light opening itself and block the sides with your fingers of the same hand so the stone is held in place and it doesn't fall off. Make sure you don't touch too close or block the light because otherwise you'll be looking at your own haemoglobin spectrum as the result (instead of the stone). ("Hooray, it has chromium!", - "Er no, it doesn't, it's your own blood", haha)
Then use a smaller version (handheld) spectroscope pointed at the stone at about 45 degrees and you'll be able to see the spectrum pretty clearly. It takes a bit of tilting things and getting the eyes to just the right angle, but once you get the hang of it it's a second's work.

 

[Arcadian]

Option A:
You get a stand (and/or a spectroscope) like this: http://gemologyproject.com/wiki/images/6/68/Opl.jpg and then you set it up like this: http://gemologyproject.com/wiki/images/a/ae/Spectroscope_use.jpg

Illumination can be a fiber optic light, for example, many microscopes come equipped with one on the side and work perfectly for this.

Option B:
Use the same fiber optic at max light setting and fix it into a vertical position (smooth, so it stands up) or hold it vertically with one hand. Place the stone table down onto the light opening itself and block the sides with your fingers of the same hand so the stone is held in place and it doesn't fall off. Make sure you don't touch too close or block the light because otherwise you'll be looking at your own haemoglobin spectrum as the result (instead of the stone). ("Hooray, it has chromium!", - "Er no, it doesn't, it's your own blood", haha)
Then use a smaller version (handheld) spectroscope pointed at the stone at about 45 degrees and you'll be able to see the spectrum pretty clearly. It takes a bit of tilting things and getting the eyes to just the right angle, but once you get the hang of it it's a second's work.

Ok I'm so going to try this (not today unfortunately stuck in meetings all day...which is why I'm here...) but thank you! just fyi, I will bug you forever until I get it right, just sayin

 

[Frost]

Ok I'm so going to try this (not today unfortunately stuck in meetings all day...which is why I'm here...) but thank you! just fyi, I will bug you forever until I get it right, just sayin

No problem at all, glad to explain further too. It's fast and simple once you get the hang of it, it's just that getting the hang of it takes a bit of practice.

Best start with something with clearly defined spectrums, like synthetic spinels (red for chromium, blue for cobalt) or natural blue sapphires (iron) to get a general feel for different spectra.

Spectroscopy is often overlooked, but there's a ton of info you can get from it.. Like IDing cobalt, chromium, iron, other elements even when there are doubts with other tools and long before you receive a lab result with advanced tests done. It helps distinguish natural stones from synthetics or simulants - I've found it to be extremely useful for weirder/rarer colors of spinel, for example. You take one look and you know what elements are inside in greater quantities, what the chromophores may be, so you have some idea of what the lab result will be too (which, when you're a gem dealer paying cash on the spot in some remote mine in the middle of nowhere, makes a difference and helps not buy nonsense).

 

[2Neesers]

I wasn't kidding when I said basic...lol

1. Chelsea Filter - got one off ebay
   
2. Refractometer - got one off ebay
   
3. loupe (basic 10x) various why I have so many is a mystery...lol
4. microscope - this was a garage sale score with zeiss glass and 1000x maginifcation
   
5. several sets of tweezers - A must. I have metal and rubber tipped ones for the softer stuff
6. spectrascope - I hardly ever used it. you need a way to hold the gem, and light the gem, and certain types of light can contaminate and so on. Pain in the rear this damn thing. (obviously I'm doing something wrong )
   
7. black light - can be really helpful but also fun

This set took me a couple of years to get and understand why I needed it. and of course If I had more time and more fun money I'd get more stuff and take some classes, but this is whats worked well for me as it allowed me to do a basic analysis, and then decide if sending to an independent lab for further analysis was worth it.

Frankly this forum fails a bit when it comes to USING the tools side of things. I get why, consumer board and it ain't diamonds. There are forums out there that delve into the scientific side of gemstones and testing methods, which if you're trying to avoid being taken, that type of knowledge on the part of the consumer is a must.

basically that means I had to go to other forums in order to learn what this stuff was and how to use it and, I still think we're not allowed to mention those forums. Such is life.

Outside of the tools, this place shines as there is so much other information gets brought here. Real factual information on gem properties, color, treatments. It might not always get updated, but it does eventually get here.

Thank you for sharing all of this info! I will be searching for the tools on your list and will look for the forums that can help with learning how to use them. I’m very interested in the scientific side of gemology, but am not naturally scientific minded, so will need all the help I can get, lol.

 

[Nosean]

You can also use modeling clay - the cheapest stand...

 

[canuk-gal]

Probably synthetic orange corundum. I don't think they've learned to synthesize spessartite garnet.

Yes, TL. I should have know since it was so "clear". :roll Doh. (my genuine Spess has a lot of "sugar")

cheers--Sharon

 

[2Neesers]

It’s even more alarming that they are now manufacturing synthetic gems complete with natural looking flaws.

This is a good point, and I should note in the case of this particular "sapphire", that there were inclusions under the table. That along with the cut not being the greatest in that it was cut deep, like genuine sapphires often are to save weight in order to add to the value, are factors that fooled me. Also, having the appraisal from the estate jeweler it was purchased from. I guess this stone fooled them too, which I wouldn't have thought would happen, but from what I have read here it could happen to anyone. Thank goodness for the labs like AGL!

 

[arkieb1]

I bought some rubies from a gemshow from a large well known vendor that were supposed to be "heat only" or untreated they were thousands of dollars. I confirmed they were returnable. First thing I did was send them to a lab. Glass filled. So the well known gem dealer that had been selling stones for decades didn't know they were glass filled or they did know and they sell rubies worth a few hundred dollars or less for thousands of dollars scamming anyone that purchases them. I returned the stones and got a full refund.

 

[2Neesers]

I bought some rubies from a gemshow from a large well known vendor that were supposed to be "heat only" or untreated they were thousands of dollars. I confirmed they were returnable. First thing I did was send them to a lab. Glass filled. So the well known gem dealer that had been selling stones for decades didn't know they were glass filled or they did know and they sell rubies worth a few hundred dollars or less for thousands of dollars scamming anyone that purchases them. I returned the stones and got a full refund.

This is shocking. Especially since you are talking about a well known gem dealer. Good thing you sent the stones to the lab right away and were able to get your refund.

 

[Frost]

I bought some rubies from a gemshow from a large well known vendor that were supposed to be "heat only" or untreated they were thousands of dollars. I confirmed they were returnable. First thing I did was send them to a lab. Glass filled. So the well known gem dealer that had been selling stones for decades didn't know they were glass filled or they did know and they sell rubies worth a few hundred dollars or less for thousands of dollars scamming anyone that purchases them. I returned the stones and got a full refund.

That's horrible. But it's preventable - buy corundum with reports, and after buying make whichever report you'd like, making sure that the vendor agrees to refund if your preferred lab report states facts any differently (i.e. heated instead of unheated, etc.).


It's conditional buying. You say "I'll buy, here's the money, but my condition is that this or that lab says x". This is totally fair to everyone; you state your expectations up front, and the dealer can decide whether those sound reasonable (like untreated = untreated) or not (like "I want 5 major labs to all agree on pigeon blood and origin").

Not all dealers will agree to it - not all do within the trade either - because it takes time and people sometimes want cash flow so they simply wait for someone else. That's fine too and it doesn't necessarily mean the they're trying to cheat you.

But I, for example, buy from ones who agree to my conditions. There are plenty of people who don't/wouldn't cheat someone knowingly or willingly and all of those will agree to those terms usually. It also helps if you're buying from people who know their own sources since they're much less likely to inadvertently purchase something misrepresented.

As an example of exactly this, I passed on a nice 3.93 carat blue yesterday. The stone was nice, it could have been recut really nicely, the price was fair and I'm sure I could have sold it fast and painless - but the seller wanted to offload it in 5 minutes and didn't want to wait for a lab to confirm no funny business.
He even had a report, just not one from a lab that I'd find acceptable (the report was from a lab known to me, but one without sufficient equipment to determine with a high degree of certainty that there was no Be). So since it was not a level of risk personally acceptable to me considering it's cash on the spot to someone who I've never seen before in my life and who could have just easily run with the money, I passed.

There are many things like this which are common sense within the trade but which aren't used outside it and I think it's simply because people sometimes don't know that they have the option. Many people seem to think "this is the stone, this is the price, I have to buy and hope and pray that they'll agree not to cheat me" - not so. It's okay if someone doesn't agree to your terms, it's part of doing business, but take your search elsewhere instead of taking on levels of risk that you don't find acceptable because sooner or later you'll find yourself losing one of those bets big time (I could write tons about that too).

 

[2Neesers]

Great advice @Frost . I for one have learned my lesson and will take less risk and proceed with much more caution in the future.

 

[arkieb1]

@ Frost, that was precisely why I sent the rubies to the lab, I knew perfectly well I had that option, my husband's family all work in the trade. And I disagree it wasn't a dealer in a third world country that doesn't have access to suitable labs available to them, it was a large gemstone retailer in Australia that had a number of rubies without reports as stock, so either they themselves bought the rubies without knowing (and we are talking a large number of them here) were glass filled (or wanting to know themselves) or after working a number of decades in the trade they did know and they didn't care and were selling them for top prices anyway. They didn't seem that happy to be caught out put it that way, and I made 200% sure that they would take the stones back for a refund before I purchased them.

The other thing I would like to mention is at the moment in the trade people are selling stones specifically with certificates that are fakes so having a certificate or a "report" unless you know it's genuine isn't a guarantee these days either.

The lesson is, if in doubt send it to a good lab, in fact the lesson probably should be if it's over a certain price and you can't confirm the certificate or "report" is genuine still send it to a reliable lab.

 

[Frost]

And I disagree it wasn't a dealer in a third world country that doesn't have access to suitable labs available to them

... I never implied a country, not that it matters anyway, but just to clarify: Sri Lanka, Thailand, Burma, India all have labs with access to standard testing machinery (FTIR, Raman, Uv-Vis, LIBS, etc.). Equipment is hardly a big deal nowadays, there are equipment manufacturers attending gem shows all over the planet so partnerships are made and labs equip themselves - it's a pretty basic standard. So "I didn't have access to a good lab" is not an acceptable excuse to hear if you ever buy anything from over there and it turns out wrong.

it was a large gemstone retailer in Australia that had a number of rubies without reports as stock, so either they themselves bought the rubies without knowing (and we are talking a large number of them here) were glass filled (or wanting to know themselves) or after working a number of decades in the trade they did know and they didn't care and were selling them for top prices anyway.

We can't know which it is, obviously, but if it's the latter, then you at least know you'd never deal with them again. Which, like you said, makes me wonder about whether they perhaps didn't want to know, since glass filling isn't rocket science and most dealers with experience spot it from a mile away.

A small anecdote... I can't write nationalities in this case (except to say not any of the mentioned ones), but I had a friend who tried running very large mining operations in a country bordering Burma. He figured he might be able to turn the darker blue sapphires they find there into something better with heating, and at the same time he was very well connected with the previous Burmese regime for rubies. Long story short, they mined for a few years until at one point they bought a very large amount of Burmese rubies for an astronomical total sum and it turned out when they cut them that half of what they bought was glass filled. So, that happens too apparently (epilogue: they lost tons of money and closed down operations). I still can't understand how someone could do it without checking.

The other thing I would like to mention is at the moment in the trade people are selling stones specifically with certificates that are fakes so having a certificate or a "report" unless you know it's genuine isn't a guarantee these days either.

Simple solution, takes 2 minutes: taking the report verification number and checking it against the online database that practically all labs nowadays provide (yes, even various labs in source countries). If there are any discrepancies, obviously it's fake - if not, not. If extra worried, a direct call to the lab can be made to find out first hand over the phone too, and then on top of that the stone can be submitted for a new report from whichever lab one prefers.

 

[arkieb1]

I'd make an educated guess and say if I went to another gemshow I'd be about 99% certain that the same vendors were selling the same rubies at the same prices ie many thousands of dollars. So no I can't 100% say for sure they didn't know before I sent them to a lab, but they do now and as far as I'm aware it doesn't stop them selling them for grossly inflated prices to the general public.

 

[Frost]

I'd make an educated guess and say if I went to another gemshow I'd be about 99% certain that the same vendors were selling the same rubies at the same prices ie many thousands of dollars. So no I can't 100% say for sure they didn't know before I sent them to a lab, but they do now and as far as I'm aware it doesn't stop them selling them for grossly inflated prices to the general public.

Obviously sharkish, unprincipled people - best avoided entirely. And it's possible that some unfortunate down the line will purchase from them never even suspecting, or understanding the importance of doing their own research. Just goes to show due diligence pays off.

People go and research electronics, gadgets, beauty products, whatnot; so many other things before they buy. I guess it would only make sense to do the same for something costlier than most of those.

 

[2Neesers]

I'd make an educated guess and say if I went to another gemshow I'd be about 99% certain that the same vendors were selling the same rubies at the same prices ie many thousands of dollars. So no I can't 100% say for sure they didn't know before I sent them to a lab, but they do now and as far as I'm aware it doesn't stop them selling them for grossly inflated prices to the general public.

That is truly shameful, and I would guess that the many honest and trustworthy members of the trade find it just as disgusting as we do. In my case I had purchased a ring second hand, that had been previously purchased second hand, so I should have known better and should not have procrastinated with getting the appraisal updated and sending the stone to the lab. What you are talking about is totally different and inexcusable. That a well known vendor would knowingly sell glass filled rubies at a trade show is so very low.

 

[nojs]

Inspired by this post I started checking out my gems. This tourmaline (?) fluorescences bright pink. Do tourmalines have fluorescence? Or have I indeed been scammed?

 

[2Neesers]

Inspired by this post I started checking out my gems. This tourmaline (?) fluorescences bright pink. Do tourmalines have fluorescence? Or have I indeed been scammed?

Hi @nojs . I'm hoping someone can answer this for you. I just used my black light on my tourmalines and they don't have fluorescence, but maybe some do. If no one sees your question here, I hope you will start a thread and ask, because it would be interesting to find out. Your gems are beautiful by the way.

 

[suzanne2]

Inspired by this post I started checking out my gems. This tourmaline (?) fluorescences bright pink. Do tourmalines have fluorescence? Or have I indeed been scammed?

I did a quick googlerun, and found that tourmalines are generally inert. This leaves wriggle room that *some* might fluoresce. I agree that starting a thread will get more attention to your question.

 

[Frost]

Inspired by this post I started checking out my gems. This tourmaline (?) fluorescences bright pink. Do tourmalines have fluorescence? Or have I indeed been scammed?

They don't usually (much), with the exception of chrome tourmaline which glows like crazy. But it could fluoresce in long wave UV because of a small amount of chromium inside.

Pink tourmalines can be irradiated to increase color, but the color produced by that would normally be a lot darker and stronger than the stone in the photo, so I don't think you have to worry too much. If you have a spectroscope, check and see whether it shows a chromium spectrum - if yes, that could naturally be a cause of fluorescence.

EDIT: And if you're in doubt and if it isn't cost-prohibitive considering the gem variety, perhaps consider getting a small report. Again, I think there's only a tiny chance if the stone is indeed a natural tourmaline and already verified to be one (vs. a simulant or another gem variety), but only one way to be sure.

 

[Arcadian]

You can also use modeling clay - the cheapest stand...

so does this clay go dry? where do I find this clay? We're not talking playdough, which of course is easy and cheap enough to get (hey just checking)

 

[Deia]

So I received the “natural” sapphire. Just at first glance (I know that’s not an accurate way of seeing whether it’s natural or not BUT) there is no way this stone is natural. It’s bubble gum pink under my indoor lights. It’s pretty and fun but doubt it is natural. I wonder if it’s even lab created corundum.

Crappy iPhone pictures only.please excuse my gross nails, had a gel polish disaster.


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