Having trouble finding spinels anywhere

[raddygast]

I''ve been to ajsgems and awesomegems, but have had trouble finding any good spinels in general. The internet is full of sapphires and rubies (both bad, and a bit of good at a high price) but spinels seem to be so esoteric that the sites that carry them have specimens of really strange ugly cuts and peculiar (brownish overtone, too-dark, too-light) coloring.

If anyone here has been to a site with an extensive spinel section, please post the URL. Thanks.

 

[valeria101]

Are you looking for rounds only ?

It so happens that better pieces come in traditional deep cushion shapes (or whatever you may want to call them). If you are looking for precise, modern cutting, that will definitely limit your search into extinction

Actually, THIS seems to beg for a recut. The color, although not exactly bloody ruby, is light enough for concave faceting, IMO.

But "extensive collection" of fine spinel only, no idea. You may want to take a deep breath and try gemwow.com that Mogok introduced a while back to this forum. There's literally everything on that site - from small crooked melee to world class. It just takes lots of reading. SO much so, that it may be a good idea to just look under their Gem Treasures pages and then just place an inquiry for exactly what you want. At least for the material, if a precisely shaped round or oval is not feasible. Cut can always be tweacked, only to have what to cut.

Well, hope this helps a bit. Knowing as well what you want as you do, asking for the precise thing instead of browsing may just do the trick.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Pala international has a nice selection:

http://www.palagems.com/php/db_search.php?action=gemresults&actionType=easy&Gem_Type=Spinel&greater_less=&Total_Weight=&inventory_number=&submit=Find+All+Matches

 

[raddygast]

valeria: I''m not limited to rounds only anymore. I will entertain most cuts. I really don''t like the cushions, but I don''t mind ovals at all, or emerald cuts (which are probably even more rare in spinels than the round cuts). I thought about getting a badly cut stone and recutting, but I''m not sure how to tell that the "rough" will actually end up looking really good, as a bad cut really skews perception of color and brilliance.

Thanks for the pala link Richard. The one spinel that I REALLY want at Pala is 2.06 cts and way out of my price range, but it has a damn nice color.

The quest continues, I guess. If I end up with a spinel I think I''ll feel personally attached to it from the amount of work it seems to take to find one.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 10/30/2004 4:19

0 PM
Author: raddygast
valeria: I thought about getting a badly cut stone and recutting, but I'm not sure how to tell that the 'rough' will actually end up looking really good, as a bad cut really skews perception of color and brilliance.

Not everything can be done online, granted that... since a 'native cut' (I mean those square-isn cushions or whatever the name) would not do, how about asking a cutter (Michael E, Daniel Stair keep shops like that, and others, I bet) to source the piece you want. They'll know.

How about the color of the three stones in Mogok's post, no good ?

The nicest (IMO) small spinel at Pala seems to be THIS . Forget the shape

 

[valeria101]

These (below) are purely scientific 'advertising', not bad to look at though, if you find enough patience:

GRS Reports on Burmese and Namya Spinel

 

[raddygast]

Oh yes, I forgot to mention, pala is a hard site to hunt on because you have no idea what the specimens actually go for. I had a jeweller look into one stone and it was clearly too much, but I would hate to have to pester that jeweller constantly to do searches for me every time a new stone turns up on pala and I get curious about the price.

Richard, you said you''ve done some spinel inspection/appraising. The kind of color I''m looking for... would it sell for more than 2 grand per carat in the 1 to 1.5 ct range?

 

[raddygast]

Hi Valeria,

I like the colors of the spinels in Mogok''s post. But those are the hot-pink cotton-candy Namya spinels, and although I love that color, I am thinking if I go with pink I will just get a treated sapphire since it''s harder and more durable. The spinels have my attention though because I think it''s the only way I can afford the kind of red I really crave (and to be honest, it''s looking like a spinel of that color will be out of my range anyway, though not ten times out of it, like ruby).

The spinel at pala you posted is quite nice, but still on the pinkish fluorescent border for me. Some of the samples in that GRS web link you sent were really breathtaking, though. They actually make me sad that stuff like that exists and I won''t be able to get my hands on it.

Are you suggesting I ask cutters in particular if they can find some rough for me? That''s really new conceptual territory for me. Do you have recommendations (i.e. links for those cutters you mentioned)?

I wish I could just say "screw it all" and go for a garnet or rubellite tourmaline, but they are simply not hard and durable enough to be set into an e-ring.

Damn you spinel, I will find you!

 

[katbadness]

Try contacting Gemcal.
They seem to be specializing in spinels.

And here's an old thread regarding Chrono's adventure in finding a spinel.
She ends up getting in touch with spinel and elmo from the looks of it.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 10/30/2004 5:40

6 PM
Author: raddygast


I like the colors of the spinels in Mogok''s post. But those are the hot-pink cotton-candy Namya spinels, and although I love that color, I am thinking if I go with pink I will just get a treated sapphire since it''s harder and more durable.
Damn you spinel, I will find you!

This is sad, ''cause spinel does ''pink'' well more often than sapphire does. Also, since the color is lighter, brilliance starts to play out, and my fealing is that spinel is brigher than sapphire.

If you want either pink or red (or just on the border) than it may make sense to look for either spinel or ruby/sapphire of that color (so, color range given, material type options to maximize search range

)

BTW, since that Moh''s scale is not linear (jumps between corundum and diamond, since diamond is the scaling refference), spinel and sapphire are actually not sensibly far apart in terms of hardness.

Anyway, that spinel at Pala should be just about 2k/ct. I know, ''cause I asked earlier about it. Too bad it is so hard to show with prices hidden there. I really think you can end up with one of those things GRS touts, and not for a fortune either.

Small fine gems are not easy to find (ask Faberge, I think they made such things famous in jewelry design - as opposed to large so-so stuff). So this is why I mentioned the option to as a cutter to look for just the right thing.

 

[raddygast]

Point taken about pinks being done better in spinels.

Which pala spinel did you say was 2K/ct? The one you posted or the 2.06 ct one I posted earlier? At any rate, that was about the price I found, and it''s a bit too much. I could do maybe 1300 USD per ct but no more.

Gonna check out those links that katbadness posted. Thanks all for all the help. Colored gems are proving to be much more of an adventure than I thought...

 

[Mayacamas]

I understand that pink sapphires are going for about 2k a carat for a nice color and you need a cert to make sure they are not Beryillium treated.

Halee

 

[raddygast]

Wow.

Well, I saw a beautiful 1.1 ct (5.5x5.46mm) round hot pink sapphire at a local jeweller, and it worked out to about 790 USD per ct. Either he was giving me an extremely good price or the stone was more included than I could tell without the training and proper instrumentation. But thanks for that ballpark figure -- I know now that if the stone appraised to be of good quality, that that is a great price. I expect the stone was treated for color enhancement, but I hope not by beryllium for the "dying" effect.

I have sent some emails to the persons that have been most recently recommended to me as spinel sources. Thank you all for the suggestions. Gemcal.com seems promising, but they do not have a catalogue or gallery online, yet... but it looks like they are really close to all the spinel action in Mogok and Namya.

 

[katbadness]

Date: 10/30/2004 9

0

1 PM
Author: raddygast

I have sent some emails to the persons that have been most recently recommended to me as spinel sources. Thank you all for the suggestions. Gemcal.com seems promising, but they do not have a catalogue or gallery online, yet... but it looks like they are really close to all the spinel action in Mogok and Namya.

There was a point when I was looking for a spinel for my collection. I contacted a few vendors, and Hemi Englisher of Gemcal responded to my inquiries. Gemcal had some of their inventories listed on their website at that time.

A few items he suggested were extremely beautiful, but not quite what I was looking for at that time. So I ended up not purchasing anything from them.

Hopefully, your experience dealing with them will be as good as mine.

 

[raddygast]

The items that Gemcal suggested to you... what was transmitted or communicated to you? Descriptions or descriptions complete with pictures, and what was the quality or depth of the information you received?

I''m really anxiously awaiting any reply from them. Though I''ve become discouraged lately because apparently spinel prices are rising and the most desirable reds are apparently 2K/ct now, which I don''t think I can justify considering how much I have to spend. If only platinum were free!

 

[katbadness]

Date: 10/30/2004 9:28:52 PM
Author: raddygast
The items that Gemcal suggested to you... what was transmitted or communicated to you? Descriptions or descriptions complete with pictures, and what was the quality or depth of the information you received?

I'm really anxiously awaiting any reply from them. Though I've become discouraged lately because apparently spinel prices are rising and the most desirable reds are apparently 2K/ct now, which I don't think I can justify considering how much I have to spend. If only platinum were free!

raddygast,

Hemi Englisher and I were corresponding via email.
I remember receiving descriptions along with pictures, as well as prices/ct. I seem to recall the amount of information provided was quite adequate to make educated decisions.

Unfortunately, I was a newbie collector at that time... I was learning through the process.. so in hindisight and in light of what I know now, I probably would have asked for more details... along with further research and correspondence with others in the know - like Mogok/rubydick.

A point of interest I thought, at that time, Hemi Englisher was on his way to the US, he offered to bring a few of the pieces in question with him and once he arrived in the US to have them shipped to me for evaluation.

As I previously mentioned, what they had was not quite what I was looking for. So I decided to turn down his request.

Just for a second opinion, why don't you PM/email elmo. She frequents the colored gem forum as well. I seem to recall a post she made whereby she was describing some of her experience dealing with Gemcal.

If all else fail, why don't you send a PM/email to mogok, too. He may be able to help you source the spinel you're looking for.

 

[raddygast]

Will contact elmo. Sounds like a decent experience you had with Hemi Englisher.

I did actually PM Mogok himself, but he seemed to indicate he was not too savvy on the "bargain-hunting" side of things. He knew some dealers with ultra-top quality spinels, but they also had ultra-top quality prices. He offered that if I should buy from a Thai source I could arrange for the stones to be sent to his AIGS lab for inspection, which was very nice and probably something I would do if I got a Thai stone.

 

[spinel]

Hello Raddygast, sorry for not be able to answer your postings sooner. I have had hard time to convince the local ISP to activate cookies on his computers (without cookies it was impossible to log on into PS).

Seems building a website dedicated only to beautiful red spinels is a good idea! I wish you find your dreamed stone. Will send you a pm.

 

[mogok]

Hemi Englisher is a very honest dealer and an old friend: He is one of the 2 guys on the back of the elephant behind me on the photo I use as an avatar. This photo was taken in july 2001 when we went to explore Namya. We were, to my knowledge, the first foreigners to reach the place. It was just a swampy area with no roads and quite an edventure to reach the place... I personally broke one of my chops falling on a piece of wood while walking through the jungle. Very painful but not really serious. It was a fun trip...
Anyway Hemi is a trustable dealer, a very good cutter, a spinel expert and an excellent friend to travel with: I've learn a lot from him during the different trips we had few years ago to Mogok, Hpakant and Namya in Burma.

You can follow our steps in Namya on gemcal website at the following link:

Gemcal Trip to Namya

I'm the guy standing near the elephant in the photo "at the first mining village Zi Bo"... Fun trip!

Among Thai based websites I would trust by alphabetical order: AJSgems.com, americans-in-bangkok.com, gemcal.com, gemwow.com and multicolor.com... There are probably several others but I dont know them that well.
Whatever I think that if you have anyway any doubt about a stone presented in on a Thai based website, as I said to Raddygast, you can ask the website to send the stone at AIGS laboratory to have a third party opinion on it.

All the best,

 

[mogok]

Hello,
One more post as the subject passed on Namya spinels, I''ve just upload some inclusions pictures of some Namya spinels that came few weeks ago at the AIGS laboratory: They had a very nice color but were quite small... Usually Namya spinels are rare especially in large sizes but I''ve seen 2 weeks ago a very fine 5 carat specimen in a office in Mahesak.
It was sad I could not keep this parcel longer into the lab in order to identify properly the inclusions inside but anyway some could find these picture interesting like that:

Namya spinels and their inclusions

All the best,

 

[day_lily_me]

I''ve sent you a PM since there was probably more than anybody else would be interested in. Good luck.
Paula

 

[elmo]

quote you on that 2.06 oval, which looks in the photo like a very nice stone. Different jewelers work on different markups, and colored stones have traditionally sold at a hefty premium...over $2000/ct sounds expensive to me for two carats. At the same time, ask her to see if the two-carat cushions that Allen Kleiman had a few months ago are still available. I think that there was a 2.3 that was supposed to be particularly fine. Kleiman's reputation is excellent like Pala's, and pricing was well within your budget. Neither Jan nor me got to see these as the shape wasn't what I was looking for, but given the recommendation from the supplier and the pricing I think they may be worth asking about.
[/u]

 

[valeria101]

Date: 10/30/2004 3:15:19 PM
Author:raddygast
The internet is full of sapphires and rubies (both bad, and a bit of good at a high price) but spinels seem to be so esoteric...

No ofense, but just hunting down a certain price range is probably not going to help allot. Few places will ask for 2k/ct for a small spinel, no matter what. And if they do, it may well be just because you have been asking for it!

Same for pink sapphire.

It would be great if you could get to see some stones and get an idea of what range of color is possible, before paying "collection prices" for anything.

I thought This was expensive...

 

[velouriaL]

I know this is might be bit off from what you were planning, but what about a lab-created sapphire set in platinum?

I know that there are cutters like Michael E and Gembob (who is a really nice retired computer engineer who cuts gems as a hobby) who will do really nice, speciality cuts on synthetics.

You could probably get something pretty nice looking for less than $200, put it in the platinum setting of your dreams, and then replace the stone with a natural one for a wedding anniversary. That way, you can get any stones in any color in any dimension you want.

Check out this company and this one for created rough, although whoever cuts it would probably buy the rough for you.

 

[spinel]

This is a beautiful 1.35ct spinel, crystally clear and very sparkling stone with an intense deep red colour. The colour is somehow distorsed with my macro digital camera. It is doubly beautiful in real life.

 

[spinel]

Tomatoes technic...

 

[spinel]

Same 1.35ct stone

 

[spinel]

The 1.35 is re-cut from this stone, 4.10ct

 

[valeria101]

1.35 from 4 !

I definitely like the "tomato test". See the sapphire grading tool in my avatar ?


Somewhat along the same line, Did anyone report color enhancement for spinel ?
The piece below came up recently... and it is not the the first orange-pink spinel to be classified in a higher rank due to "pad" looks. Not that they are wrong or anything: if spinel gets it's fame when most like sapphire or ruby, why not promote this likeness... Is it just my novice impression that spinel has only very recently started to be called "pad" ? Lots of Qs...

 

[mogok]

Hello,

Pinkish orange spinels are sometimes found in Namya (Burma)... The stone you present Ana could come from there for the color I see in my screen. These spinels show some natural beryllium content (Peretti).

One of the questions I had few months ago... (but dont get affraid its just my thinking...) was what could happen if you heat spinels using the beryllium technology? As spinel melting point is higher than corundum it does not sounds a crazy idea.
Most mogok spinels are dark in tone, Namya spinels are brighter and contain beryllium so may be something is possible?
It is a while that I hear about possible heat treatment technology to lower the tone in dark spinels. But up to now, I never saw a proof or an indication about it... But somewhere I''m pretty sure that somebody has tryed already or will try... I had this discussion several times here in Bangkok with dealers during the last year so its not a secret. Spinel dealers are affraid that if treatment reach spinel this stone will loose its position as one of the last heaven for "natural gem" in the "just cut and polished" sense. So even if the thing is succesful in this case there would be probably no profit possible... except if everything is keep very very secret (difficult) and if the stones themselves does not show anyindication (not probable at all)
Anyway, there are possible technical problems as the melting point is not the only issue on the problem. I dont really know for exemple how spinel can handle thermal shock.

Well I guess that I have to make some tests myself in order to figure out about all that.

All the best,