Help & Advice Seeking Natural Oval White Sapphire

[Paige1182]

Hello All! Apologies in advance for the long post and many questions.
Long time lover of sapphires (my birthstone) but new to truly understanding their attributes and value. My boyfriend has long known that I wanted a white sapphire ring over a diamond, if he were to propose- specifically a larger oval shape. We recently went on a beautiful trip to the mountains and he proposed with a gorgeous ring (spoiler alert- I said yes ). In the few days after, he asked if there were any adjustments I wanted to make to the setting, which I did, and he got me in contact with the jeweler (an out of state jeweler who his family has used in Indiana for over 20 years, we are in FL). The jeweler was pleasant and patient and seemed eager to make any changes I wanted. But I also learned on the call that what I had was a 'lab' white sapphire (pictures attached). I really really would prefer a natural white sapphire, not lab. I've never been a diamond girl but I've always still had that 'from the earth' desire for a stone/ring. Although my few interactions with this jeweler so far have been pleasant, there seems to be some hesitation/uncertainty (maybe the wrong word) about finding me a similar size white sapphire that is natural. My current stone is a little over 7.5 carats, about 14mm wide, 10mm in length and almost 8mm tall. He told me that an untreated quality natural white sapphire would cost around $2,500 a carat- that seems quite high to me. He also 'warned' me that I should not seek a heated white sapphire as it weakens the stone and makes it more susceptible to cracking, unsure of this also. He has sourced a few that are half the size, more expensive than my huge lab stone and they also have a slight yellow tint. I'm not impressed. Naturally I did my own digging... and I found a loose natural untreated white sapphire close in size (width and length... it's not as tall as my current lab stone but I would actually prefer something not as tall) and way under $2,500 a carat. But- it's from NSC. I've read many threads here over the last few days and understand that NSC isn't a crowd favorite here- but I haven't seen anything similar to what I am looking for anywhere else.

If you've made it through my rambling to here- thank you! Here are my specific questions:

1) What is a fair price per carat of a natural untreated white sapphire?
2) I'm sure 'heating' affects value, but does it affect the integrity of the stone?
3) Any particular thoughts on the stone linked below from NSC? I can see in the 360 view that there are some small inclusions present but it is still listed as 'eye clean'?
4) Can gem prices be negotiated (with NSC or other retailers)?
5) I don't know much about certification companies, is the one that NSC uses legit?
6) In the event this sapphire from NSC is a good one, is it frowned upon to now obtain the stone myself and ask him to set it?
7) Has anyone experienced returning a stone to NSC, is there return policy legit? They give you 14 days. But, I've read horror stories from other retailers where they drag out the return on their side so you end up outside of their return policy dates and you end up paying for it.

*Link below to the stone I found on NSC that is the size and color (colorless) I am looking for. Pics attached of my current lab sapphire ring.

https://www.thenaturalsapphirecompany.com/5.25ct-ceylon-oval-white-sapphire-u11119-/

Thank you!!!

 

[LilAlex]

A lot to unpack there. First, congratulations on the engagement! Others will be along shortly.

A 7.5-ct anything is a monster and not very practical for everyday wear. Sounds like you are committed to a 7.5-ct something, correct?

Sapphire is less "sparkly" than diamond so a large, fine, colorless sapphire is not really sought after -- except to beryllium treat.

Since most of sapphire differentiation is color, the only thing you would be looking at is cut and clarity so that's pretty easy. There are different degrees of colorless, I'm sure -- and a sapphire may shift from bluish to pinkish in different lights. I have a pale gray one that does that.

I see nothing at all wrong with heat treatment. It's stable and the vast majority of sapphires are heat-treated. 100% of commercial sapphires are treated, I would venture. Heating is done to improve clarity and color. I prefer unheated but in a colorless stone it would not make that much of a diference to me.

You can always negotiate on price -- if you are prepared to walk away. This is not a bad time to negotiate on price, imo. You are a niche market -- few people seem to be seeking large, high-quality, colorless sapphires.

Lots of opinions on NSC -- some good and some less good. I have not purchased from them and am disinclined after reading a lot of posts here. I would think that buying a colorless stone from them would be pretty low-risk. That would be hard to misrepresent.

Price per carat scales with size just like for diamond. In general, the sky's the limit for a 7+ ct untreated sapphire.

The disconnect with your fiance is a little disconcerting, I must say that there will be a huge cost differential between what you have and what you are seeking and I can't tell if this is a shared expense.

 

[Paige1182]

A lot to unpack there. First, congratulations on the engagement! Others will be along shortly.

A 7.5-ct anything is a monster and not very practical for everyday wear. Sounds like you are committed to a 7.5-ct something, correct?

Sapphire is less "sparkly" than diamond so a large, fine, colorless sapphire is not really sought after -- except to beryllium treat.

Since most of sapphire differentiation is color, the only thing you would be looking at is cut and clarity so that's pretty easy. There are different degrees of colorless, I'm sure -- and a sapphire may shift from bluish to pinkish in different lights. I have a pale gray one that does that.

I see nothing at all wrong with heat treatment. It's stable and the vast majority of sapphires are heat-treated. 100% of commercial sapphires are treated, I would venture. Heating is done to improve clarity and color. I prefer unheated but in a colorless stone it would not make that much of a diference to me.

You can always negotiate on price -- if you are prepared to walk away. This is not a bad time to negotiate on price, imo. You are a niche market -- few people seem to be seeking large, high-quality, colorless sapphires.

Lots of opinions on NSC -- some good and some less good. I have not purchased from them and am disinclined after reading a lot of posts here. I would think that buying a colorless stone from them would be pretty low-risk. That would be hard to misrepresent.

Price per carat scales with size just like for diamond. In general, the sky's the limit for a 7+ ct untreated sapphire.

The disconnect with your fiance is a little disconcerting, I must say that there will be a huge cost differential between what you have and what you are seeking and I can't tell if this is a shared expense.

Thanks for the detailed response!

Yes, 7.5 is a monster. I'm finding more than anything, it's the height of this stone and setting that is not my favorite. The stone from NSC is 5.25 carat and I would guess a better size for me.

Thank you for sharing about heat treatment. To be clear, it doesn't affect the strength/integrity of the stone? ie more likely to crack/dent/break bc it was heat treated? I wouldn't mind heat treated either, so long as it's still a strong stone (I'm clumsy + big stone = no bueno). I feel like the current jeweler is trying to steer me away from heat treated stones, and the above was the reason he gave.

Do you have any other recs on where to source this type of stone? As a consumer, NSC was easy to find and navigate so that's why I landed there.

As far as cost difference... this is where I get concerned about the jeweler we are using. I think my fiance still paid around 4k for that lab stone (excluding setting/band)... that seems nuts! Please enlighten me here. Especially when I found a natural one (on NSC) in a similar-ish size for only $1,500 more.

 

[Horsegirl76]

I think NSC is a fine vendor now, but they can be expensive and you need to carefully examine the cutting of the stone. They have some beautiful sapphires, but also some poorly cut duds. I am no expert—just speaking from personal experience. Good luck!

 

[Paige1182]

I think NSC is a fine vendor now, but they can be expensive and you need to carefully examine the cutting of the stone. They have some beautiful sapphires, but also some poorly cut duds. I am no expert—just speaking from personal experience. Good luck!

Thank you! Well they are certainly cheaper than the jeweler I am currently working with that is a 'family friend', so if price is the main issue.. they are a better option than I currently have.

I could tell from NSC's posted documentation on this stone that it is not 'perfectly' cut. Is that a big deal? Seems to look ok from the top which is all I know to care about. I assumed setting it to look even was a fix, but I truly don't know the answer!

 

[Horsegirl76]

Thank you! Well they are certainly cheaper than the jeweler I am currently working with that is a 'family friend', so if price is the main issue.. they are a better option than I currently have.

I could tell from NSC's posted documentation on this stone that it is not 'perfectly' cut. Is that a big deal? Seems to look ok from the top which is all I know to care about. I assumed setting it to look even was a fix, but I truly don't know the answer!

If your “Family friend” is who I think it might be they sell only heat treated sapphires so that would boost NSC to the top of the list for me. An unheated sapphire is definitely more rare than a heated one.

I do not know much about how ovals should be cut. @lovedogs is really excellent in evaluating cut so hopefully she will chime in here for you.

 

[MollyMalone]

In response to your query, @Paige1182 , about the Gemstone Report from C. Dunaigre in Switzerland, this thread has information that I think you'll find helpful (Mr. Dunaigre began his gemological career with AIGS in Bangkok & was, for a number of years, the chief supervisor of the well regarded Gubelin gem lab in Switizerland):

Have you ever heard C.Dunaigre certificate?

My supplier show me unheated Ceylon sapphire and he also show me the certificate from C.Dunaigre lab. I never heard this certificate before. Can i trust this certificate? Their website also not have.

www.pricescope.com

You'll see his reports among those accompanying colored stones/jewelry in, e.g., Christie's and Sotheby's auctions. I don't know how well-equipped his lab is to detect the newer, enhancing treatments of colored sapphires, but I would have great confidence in his report on the white sapphire you're considering.

That said, I myself have no interest in making a purchase from NSC and thereby helping to line the pockets of a man who forged court orders in an effort to get Google to remove unfavorable comments/reviews about his company -- including some here on PS. But I realize not everyone may share my views on that.

As @LilAlex indicated, large white mined sapphires are not in great demand and not readily available. Which may explain why your SO decided upon a man-made one. Is an oval one a "must have" because that would resemble the ring your future husband gave you, or are you flexible as to the shape of the new, mined sapphire?

 

[Paige1182]

In response to your query, @Paige1182 , about the Gemstone Report from C. Dunaigre in Switzerland, this thread has information that I think you'll find helpful (Mr. Dunaigre began his gemological career with AIGS in Bangkok & was, for a number of years, the chief supervisor of the well regarded Gubelin gem lab in Switizerland):

Have you ever heard C.Dunaigre certificate?

My supplier show me unheated Ceylon sapphire and he also show me the certificate from C.Dunaigre lab. I never heard this certificate before. Can i trust this certificate? Their website also not have.

www.pricescope.com

You'll see his reports among those accompanying colored stones/jewelry in, e.g., Christie's and Sotheby's auctions. I don't know how well-equipped his lab is to detect the newer, enhancing treatments of colored sapphires, but I would have great confidence in his report on the white sapphire you're considering.

That said, I myself have no interest in making a purchase from NSC and thereby helping to line the pockets of a man who forged court orders in an effort to get Google to remove unfavorable comments/reviews about his company -- including some here on PS. But I realize not everyone may share my views on that.

As @LilAlex indicated, large white mined sapphires are not in great demand and not readily available. Which may explain why your SO decided upon a man-made one. Is an oval one a "must have" because that would resemble the ring your future husband gave you, or are you flexible as to the shape of the new, mined sapphire?

Great info, thank you for that.

To be fair, my SO wasn't very involved with the final decision on the stone or the setting- his mom was, ha! She did know that yes, I wanted an oval and that I also preferred something a little larger (but not this large!) because sapphires are typically much cheaper than diamonds. She was the one that steered him towards this jeweler she knows and he sourced everything and my SO threw down his credit card. An oval has been what I wanted for over a decade, so I'm pretty stuck on that. I've also loved sapphires, of all colors, for a long time and had envisioned going colorless for this type of 'forever' ring so that it would always potentially match anything else I had on. So that's how we arrived at a larger, oval, white sapphire.

I mentioned in a reply above- I have since found out that my SO paid over 4k for the lab sapphire- not the setting, just the stone. It's 7.5 carats, which is LARGE. But that seems really expensive!? Any thoughts there? I don't know this jeweler from Adam and would love another's perspective.

 

[Bron357]

Firstly Congratulations on your engagement.
Secondly, lab grown sapphires possess all the attributes of natural sapphire, except they are grown in a lab. There is nothing “wrong” with a lab sapphire unless you specifically want a natural gem or worse, you were mislead by the Vendor.
Onto the other aspects of your post.
A jeweller and a gemologist are different. A jeweller may own a shop, have experience dealing with gems but only a gemologist has qualifications specific to identifying and evaluating gemstones.
It is nonsense that “heating” damages a sapphire. Sapphires have been heated to improve clarity for hundreds of years. What affects a sapphires crystal structure is crystal flaws including feathers or fissures.
Natural white sapphires are seldom “white” because that is the “pure” Crystal colour and the environments they form in usually have faint traces of other elements which cause coloration. So often they have a faint yellow tinge or faint blue tinge.
Identifying natural from lab created white sapphires can be tricky even for the most experienced gemologist. The normal tools that help indemnity lab grown sapphires ie curved striae or absence of natural colour zoning can’t be seen in white (clear) sapphires. A heated white sapphire is likely to have no rutile silk. So often times it’s nigh impossible to differentiate between a great natural white sapphire and a lab grown white sapphire.
And of course that’s a problem in relation to price.
A large natural white sapphire will be many thousands of dollars. They are rarer in large sizes and without a yellow tinge.
Lab sapphires on the other hand are mere cents per carat.
As for NSC, some people have dealt happily with them, others haven’t had a great experience. Their gem “certificates” are in-house and many would say that’s not appropriate/ desirable. An independent lab report is what you need.
Until you have a reputable lab report for your existing white sapphire you can’t prove it’s not natural. If it’s not natural and your fiancée paid $4k for it, he needs to be going back and getting a refund!
And finally, because sapphire has a lower dispersion rate ie less “sparkly” than diamond, consider the cut carefully. Some cuts work better with white sapphire than others.
Here’s my white sapphire, it has a faint blue tinge. I think this cut works very well for white sapphires.

 

[Paige1182]

Firstly Congratulations on your engagement.
Secondly, lab grown sapphires possess all the attributes of natural sapphire, except they are grown in a lab. There is nothing “wrong” with a lab sapphire unless you specifically want a natural gem or worse, you were mislead by the Vendor.
Onto the other aspects of your post.
A jeweller and a gemologist are different. A jeweller may own a shop, have experience dealing with gems but only a gemologist has qualifications specific to identifying and evaluating gemstones.
It is nonsense that “heating” damages a sapphire. Sapphires have been heated to improve clarity for hundreds of years. What affects a sapphires crystal structure is crystal flaws including feathers or fissures.
Natural white sapphires are seldom “white” because that is the “pure” Crystal colour and the environments they form in usually have faint traces of other elements which cause coloration. So often they have a faint yellow tinge or faint blue tinge.
Identifying natural from lab created white sapphires can be tricky even for the most experienced gemologist. The normal tools that help indemnity lab grown sapphires ie curved striae or absence of natural colour zoning can’t be seen in white (clear) sapphires. A heated white sapphire is likely to have no rutile silk. So often times it’s nigh impossible to differentiate between a great natural white sapphire and a lab grown white sapphire.
And of course that’s a problem in relation to price.
A large natural white sapphire will be many thousands of dollars. They are rarer in large sizes and without a yellow tinge.
Lab sapphires on the other hand are mere cents per carat.
As for NSC, some people have dealt happily with them, others haven’t had a great experience. Their gem “certificates” are in-house and many would say that’s not appropriate/ desirable. An independent lab report is what you need.
Until you have a reputable lab report for your existing white sapphire you can’t prove it’s not natural. If it’s not natural and your fiancée paid $4k for it, he needs to be going back and getting a refund!
And finally, because sapphire has a lower dispersion rate ie less “sparkly” than diamond, consider the cut carefully. Some cuts work better with white sapphire than others.
Here’s my white sapphire, it has a faint blue tinge. I think this cut works very well for white sapphires.

Thank you! It was me pushing for the natural sapphire- honestly I hadn't heard about lab sapphires so I hadn't warned my SO (or his mom who helped) against them. I am unimpressed by diamonds (and their high cost for not being very rare), so I've long since wanted a white sapphire... as they are more rare but typically affordable.

Yes I now know for sure- I have a white lab sapphire and he paid 4k for that stone alone (setting was another 2k). Just to confirm, that's absolutely ridiculous, right?! You mentioned cents on the dollar for lab sapphires... so it should've been under $1000 I assume (it's 7.5 carats)?

The stone I am eyeing from NSC is 5.25 carats, seems colorless or white, has some small inclusions on their '360 view' but is stated as 'eye clean' on it's certified report from a 3rd party (it's linked in my original post).

I have a follow up call with the jeweler who made my current ring on Monday, trying to be armed with info... so thank you!

**Cute pup in your photo!!

 

[Grymera]

Hi @Paige1182 I had a few thoughts in reading your post and responses. The first thing we need to address is the ring you have. You ask if $4k is high for a lab sapphire. Yes, I would say, that's high retail pricing. Looking at AfricaGems, they have high lab sapphire prices and I'm seeing a just under 4ct white lab sapphire for $967 and a 6ct blue sapphire that's $1623. So I'd expect a white at full retail about $2k; which is still a lot. MoissaniteCo has excellent prices on lab sapphires and they're offering, in comparison, 5.5ct blue oval for... $356. So yes, yikes, that's a high price for a lab sapphire that your fiancé paid. Even a precision cut stone, Gene's calculator is quoting about $2,500 for a 14mm lab sapphire (at 19.3 carats!) (and in that case, you're paying for lab sapphire rough and the labor and skill to cut it).

What are you looking to spend on the new ring? One thing to consider is that it will be very difficult to find a white sapphire to the exact dimensions you have now for your setting, so it's likely the setting is a sunk cost and you'll have to have something new made.

I also like this 5 carat natural white sapphire from AJS Gems better than the one you posted from NSC; the cut seems much nicer and "crisper" to me than the splintery cut of the NSC one.

If it were me and I money I would go one of two routes:
1) Try to recoup as much money as possible from the jeweler. Use comps above to show your fiancé really overpaid and they need to refund as much as possible. Start over, new mined sapphire, new setting. Use a new jeweler because I would not be comfortable going back to someone who charged so much for a lab stone.
2) Keep original ring as-is; for sentimentality and decide new budget for a more wearable ring. Consider a protective setting like a low bezel setting for a stone nearing 5-7 carats.

 

[LilAlex]

To be fair, my SO wasn't very involved with the final decision on the stone or the setting- his mom was, ha! She did know that yes, I wanted an oval and that I also preferred something a little larger (but not this large!) because sapphires are typically much cheaper than diamonds. She was the one that steered him towards this jeweler she knows and he sourced everything and my SO threw down his credit card. An oval has been what I wanted for over a decade, so I'm pretty stuck on that. I've also loved sapphires, of all colors, for a long time and had envisioned going colorless for this type of 'forever' ring so that it would always potentially match anything else I had on. So that's how we arrived at a larger, oval, white sapphire.

Gotta say: I like your guy now! He did his best and followed imperfect advice.

Not sure about getting your $ back from the jeweler but you can try. They created (and sourced) exactly what they were asked to create.

At many jewelers, there is no way that you can walk out with an individually sourced stone and custom handmade ring for < $3K. We sometimes go to one of those because they do great metalwork. But it's not the cheapest route.

As others have said, colorless lab sapphire is not without value -- but it is very inexpensive as gems go. I wear a 10- or 20-ct flawless one all day, every day. I see it every time I look at my watch. Sapphire crystal adds few $hundred to the cost of a watch.

 

[MollyMalone]

* * * As for NSC, some people have dealt happily with them, others haven’t had a great experience. Their gem “certificates” are in-house and many would say that’s not appropriate/ desirable. An independent lab report is what you need. * * *

Just as a fyi: NSC's pricier stones now generally seem (I didn't spend a lot of time scrolling thru their inventory) to come with a report from a reputable independent lab (e.g., GIA, GRS) in addition to the documents NSC itself generates. And to give credit where credit is due, NSC isn't calling their own reports "certificates."

The white sapphire from NSC that @Paige1182 is considering has a report from C. Dunaigre, plus NSC's in-house reports.

 

[Arcadian]

If you want a natural white sapphire then go for it. We're not really allowed to discuss lab grown stones which is why you won't see much discussion here.

My comments about NSC... Imma just say I've seen plenty of shenanigans out of that company... yeah let me shut up....

Anyway if thats who you go with, make damn sure that the report leads back to a reputable lab.

 

[GliderPoss]

Welcome, congratulations on your engagement!

I agree the others - firstly you should have the conversation with your fiance re: lab sapphire versus natural sapphire. Can he return it? It does sound like he VASTLY over payed for it initially, did he know he was buying a lab sapphire? Heat treated sapphires are just fine, don't stress about their durability.

Secondly if you are looking to replace like with like so to speak, that will be somewhat harder and expensive especially as purely clear sapphires without secondary tint is quite rare. We are happy to help you, just let us know size in millimetres to fit your ring & budget as we know what shape you want. (I would not recommend NSC, I'm sure there are more ethical vendors out there).

Interestingly this ring looks almost identical to your ring Etsy