Help Kenny! Husband bought me heat treated purple sapphire

[VapidLapid]

Re: Help Kenny! Husband bought me heat treated purple sapph

While I think it is important as consumers of sapphires that we remain vigilant about unacceptability of diffusion treatments and the relative worthlessness of stones so treated, I think it would be fair and (cant believe Im saying this) kind to move the discussion to another thread. The OP had said that she does not intend to return it and only wants to know that her DH wasn't swindled. As the pendant was a gift on an milestone birthday it comes with great sentiments. To subject the stone to testing now after the fact, the purchase, the birthday, and the gifting and as the receiver, not the buyer would not even be like looking a gift horse in the mouth, but rather killing it to perform an autopsy to make sure it had been healthy. Not every sapphire purchase is of a level or purpose that calls for certifications.

It is a pretty pendant and a really lovely color. Your husband did well by you in my opinion.
And Happy Birthday!

 

[T L]

Re: Help Kenny! Husband bought me heat treated purple sapph

Not every sapphire purchase is of a level or purpose that calls for certifications.

True, but I do think a purchase of $2K does call for a full report (what some people refer to as a "certification") that tests for all possible treatment.

 

[vinkalmann]

Re: Help Kenny! Husband bought me heat treated purple sapph

One thing to note, that might ease the OP's mind, there's no emergency in having the stone certified by another lab. NSC guarantees that the stone is as they describe and if it turns out that it is something else, they will replace the stone or come up with another solution. So, if the third party cert was done down the road that would be fine. When they say it's heated, it means that, not that it's heated and diffused. I base this fact on questioning whether they sell BE diffused stones before I made a recent purchase. They stated that they never sell them. Take that for what you will, but know that there is recourse if it came back as BE diffused.

 

[debi1960]

Re: Help Kenny! Husband bought me heat treated purple sapph

I just spoke with Livia at Natural Sapphire Company. She said it was not BE heated.

 

[chrono]

Re: Help Kenny! Husband bought me heat treated purple sapph

I just spoke with Livia at Natural Sapphire Company. She said it was not BE heated.

And what is her proof? Trust but verify.

 

[vinkalmann]

Re: Help Kenny! Husband bought me heat treated purple sapph

I just spoke with Livia at Natural Sapphire Company. She said it was not BE heated.

And what is her proof? Trust but verify.

I myself am a convert to this way of thinking. Basically you can't really trust what a seller is telling you since it's a conflict of interest.

Basically if you want to be sure, or as sure as you can, the stone needs to be sent to a lab that can detect whether it's been BE enchanced. That requires them to have a LIBS machine. I could be wrong, but I don't think GIA has one so that's out, but AGL does. I've never used them (they're reputable for sure), but here's a couple of links if you want to do some research:

Pricing:

http://www.aglgemlab.com/services/AGLrates.pdf

AGL Website in general:

http://www.aglgemlab.com

At $150 for your size stone, I guess you just have to ask how important it is for you to know. It's not a huge amount to pay for something that expensive, but it all likelihood it's going to come back as being heated only.

It's my understanding that NSC, at the customers request, will send stones over 1 carat to a 3rd party appraiser at the NSC's cost. In this case it already has one so who knows if they would send it somewhere else again. Maybe ask Livia if you they would be able to have it certed at your cost, but as their pricing? I can only imagine that they don't pay the same cost you would.

 

[Indylady]

Re: Help Kenny! Husband bought me heat treated purple sapph

Wow, lovely pendant!! Congrats on your 50th!

 

[T L]

Re: Help Kenny! Husband bought me heat treated purple sapph

One thing to note, that might ease the OP's mind, there's no emergency in having the stone certified by another lab. NSC guarantees that the stone is as they describe and if it turns out that it is something else, they will replace the stone or come up with another solution. So, if the third party cert was done down the road that would be fine. When they say it's heated, it means that, not that it's heated and diffused. I base this fact on questioning whether they sell BE diffused stones before I made a recent purchase. They stated that they never sell them. Take that for what you will, but know that there is recourse if it came back as BE diffused.

I'm not talking specifically NSC here, but any vendor of colored gemstones. Any seller can be duped into purchasing a gemstone that is not what it is reported to be. That is why third party verification is utterly important on an expensive purchase. I can say all day long that I don't buy be-treated sapphires, but I could be tricked into buying one I suspect is not be-treated, but it could be. Be-treatment is very difficult to detect, and it is not your run of the mill treatment. Let us not forget the lesson we learned when a very well known and trusted vendor sold a padparadscha to a customer. He is also a sapphire afficionado. He had it sent to a reputable lab and it came back synthetic. He did the right thing, and in this case, hopefully NSC would do the right thing by sending the gem out to a reputable lab if the OP requested it for a FULL report of all possible treatment.

I am glad you posted the AGL links Vinkalman as I think they are the premier lab for colored gems. We have to also remember that in the future, that lab report might serve the OP's heirs if she passes this gem down. It would be valuable to them as well. Treatments may become so incredibly prevelant in the future, that having an untreated gem might be a great rarity, especially a sapphire. Having documentation from a period where you can still find an untreated or just heated stone would be very beneficial down the road.

 

[Gailey]

Re: Help Kenny! Husband bought me heat treated purple sapph

Whereas AGTA does not test stones any more, AGTA is still AGTA and still in business. I would think someone there would know if they were testing for BE Diffusion in 2004 with a LIBS machine.

What about Richard Sherwood? Anyone know if he has a LIBS machine?

All that said, I agree with Vapid in this case (did I say that too?!?!?)

Debi, if there seems to be an unusual degree of skepticism about your sapphire, it is all well intentioned. I would doubt (and hope) that a company that has built it's reputation on selling non-treated sapphires, would risk it's reputation on selling a $2K BE treated stone.

Happy birthday, it's a lovely gift!

 

[T L]

Re: Help Kenny! Husband bought me heat treated purple sapph

Whereas AGTA does not test stones any more, AGTA is still AGTA and still in business. I would think someone there would know if they were testing for BE Diffusion in 2004 with a LIBS machine.

What about Richard Sherwood? Anyone know if he has a LIBS machine?

All that said, I agree with Vapid in this case (did I say that too?!?!?)

Debi, if there seems to be an unusual degree of skepticism about your sapphire, it is all well intentioned. I would doubt (and hope) that a company that has built it's reputation on selling non-treated sapphires, would risk it's reputation on selling a $2K BE treated stone.

Happy birthday, it's a lovely gift!

LIBS machines are extremely expensive (six figures I believe). However, the most advanced machine for detection of this treatment is the LA-ICP-MS. Very few labs around the world have a LIBS, much less a LA-ICP-MS.

http://www.gaaj-zenhokyo.co.jp/researchroom/2004/2004_02-01en.html

From GRS:
Laser Ablation Inductively Coupled Plasma Mass Spectrometry (LA-ICP-MS). The LA-ICP-MS method - used to characterize the content and variation of all trace elements, including light elements such as Lithium (Li), Boron (B) and Beryllium (Be) on a micro scale - turned out to be the key factor in understanding the new heat treatment technique.
This report contributes to the understanding of the new heat treatment with Beryllium and to differentiate from conventional heat-enhancement (E) and conventional surface diffusion treatment (T).

http://www.gemresearch.ch/journal/No4/page01.htm

 

[Aoife]

Re: Help Kenny! Husband bought me heat treated purple sapph

Basically if you want to be sure, or as sure as you can, the stone needs to be sent to a lab that can detect whether it's been BE enchanced. That requires them to have a LIBS machine. I could be wrong, but I don't think GIA has one so that's out, but AGL does. I've never used them (they're reputable for sure), but here's a couple of links if you want to do some research:

I thought GIA did have the ability to test for Be diffusion. Wasn't there another discussion on CS about that?

 

[kenny]

Re: Help Kenny! Husband bought me heat treated purple sapph

I just spoke with Livia at Natural Sapphire Company. She said it was not BE heated.

I'd ask them to put that in writing.
I doubt they would unless they were absolutely certain, considering the legal liability.

 

[Lee Little]

Re: Help Kenny! Husband bought me heat treated purple sapph

Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it can't exist. If there's one thing I've learned over collecting a long number of years, is to "never say never" when it comes to treatment. I have a sapphire that was AIGS denoted as "heated" without any LIBS testing. It changes color, Richard Hughes told me he's never seen a color shift be-treated sapphire, and he's seen tons of sapphires, but he said that with the caveat that it doesn't mean it can't exist. I guess for me, it's important to trust, but verification is even more important, especially when it comes to gems and the ever changing market and the big money involved in treatment. Some people may call me paranoid, but I think it's justified after what I've seen and read over the years on various treatment and deceptions.

ETA: I don't know where you're getting your prices from, but I wouldn't pay more than $20/ct for a be-treated sapphire of any color. In essence,it's color has been altered extensively. Retailers can charge what they want, but that doesn't mean the stone is worth a lot, and I find be-treated stones a complete waste of money.

Hi TL,
I only said I never saw one, didn't say it never existed. I asked if anybody has ever seen one as I would like to know IF it has ever been documented. I think the odds are strongly in favor of her stone being simply heated.
I shop Chanthaburi, Mae Sai, Mae Sot and Bangkok for Sapphires. Chanthaburi is the main source for Be treated sapphires so one would expect the prices to be as low as possible there but if ones' budget is $20 a carat for any Be Sapphire then they will not go home with any of the really pretty ones. Maybe we should start a new thread on Beryllium treated sapphires if we are to continue this discussion. Best regards, Lee

 

[T L]

Re: Help Kenny! Husband bought me heat treated purple sapph

The odds may be strongly in the OP's favor, but another thing I've learned while collecting, is not to listen to odds that much. New treatments are happening so quickly and they're devising so many treatment methods that are often extremely difficult to detect, that it's becoming obviously clear to me that verification is of prime importance, even if the odds are stacked in your favor. I have a color shift sapphire that was designated as Heated and no LIBS testing. I was told by one of the premier experts of sapphires in the world, Mr. Richard Hughes, that he had never seen a color shift be-treated sapphire. However, although the odds still are stacked in my favor, I will have that lingering doubt, and I could send the stone for more appropriate testing, but for this gem, it is isn't cost effective. I can't tell you how many times I've heard, "oh that isn't a treatment on that gem" and it ends up that a new treatment has been discovered that throws that argument away.

I am still posting this information in this thread because the OP did ask if the stone was worth the price paid, and discussing treatment is a very significant part of that question in my opinion. We have to discard the sentimentality of the piece and try to help her make an informed and intelligent decision. She can read this and take away whatever information she likes. She may even think I'm a crazy person, but I do think this discussion is pertinent to the OP's question.

 

[LD]

Re: Help Kenny! Husband bought me heat treated purple sapph

Has anyone ever seen that color come from Be Heat treatment? I see thousands of sapphires that have been heated with Beryl products and know a lot of guys in Chanthaburi that treat stones for a living and I have never seen one even close to this saturated grape purple. I have seen purple but more of a reddish, bluish or grayish purple and never any deeply saturated purple. That doesn't mean they don't exist, just I have never seen or heard of them and wonder if anybody else ever has.Even with being treated with high heat and a Beryl product the price on a beautiful stone certainly does not bottom out, especially in countries other than the USA. Pretty colors still command high prices the world over for Sapphires known to have Be treatment.
It is safe for consumers (unlike some radiation treatments) and the color enhancement goes deep into the molecular structure making it last forever as far as we know. I have watched the prices steadily climb for this product as more and more people are educated about it and I imagine the climb will continue. Best regards, Lee

I'm afraid I have Lee. In abundance. There is a TV jewellery channel in the UK who, last year, were selling lots and lots of purple sapphire items. They were BE treated. There is absolutely NO WAY to tell from just looking at a colour whether something has been BE treated or not. You can suspect but proof can only be had after testing.

The point about BE treatment is that it's akin to cheating. You take a yuck coloured sapphire, heat with BE and hey presto you get a beautiful coloured gemstone. I don't care whether the treatment is stable or not, for me, it's not a natural stone anymore.

Whilst I'm quite sure that BE treatment makes gemstones affordable for many, for true collectors I'm afraid that BE is BE and I, for one, won't touch it with a bargepole irrespective of cost/beauty etc.

 

[movie zombie]

Re: Help Kenny! Husband bought me heat treated purple sapph

I am still posting this information in this thread because the OP did ask if the stone was worth the price paid, and discussing treatment is a very significant part of that question in my opinion. We have to discard the sentimentality of the piece and try to help her make an informed and intelligent decision. She can read this and take away whatever information she likes. She may even think I'm a crazy person, but I do think this discussion is pertinent to the OP's question.

as a reader of this thread, i agree.

MoZo

 

[kenny]

Re: Help Kenny! Husband bought me heat treated purple sapph

I am still posting this information in this thread because the OP did ask if the stone was worth the price paid, and discussing treatment is a very significant part of that question in my opinion. We have to discard the sentimentality of the piece and try to help her make an informed and intelligent decision. She can read this and take away whatever information she likes. She may even think I'm a crazy person, but I do think this discussion is pertinent to the OP's question.

as a reader of this thread, i agree.

MoZo

I also agree.
I think sentimentality often prevents important information from flowing here.