HELP needed before purchase

[Ddmm]

I am close to 80% closing the deal for this 3.16ct but I am uncomfortable about the fact that there are quite a fair amount of inclusions - feather and twinning wisps. I read that it is relatively rare to have twinning wisps in brilliant round diamonds but this stone in particular has quite a few. Please advise if I should go ahead with the purchase.
All your input are appreciated.

 

[04diamond<3]

I'd pass. It's too deep and the crown angle is too big. It only scored a 3.6 on the HCA. Are you open to other options? What's your budget?

 

[Ddmm]

This stone has been offered to me at US$60K. My budget could stretch up to a max of US$65K.

 

[04diamond<3]

I'd suggest going down a bit in color(not much) to get something with a far better cut! A few options:

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-2835904.htm (they have a great upgrade policy)

http://www.jamesallen.com/#!/loose-diamonds/round-cut/3.19-carat-I-color-VVS1-clarity-Excellent-cut-sku-135720 (they also have a great upgrade policy, but this one is a VVS1 - which I think is good clarity for a larger stone). after the 5% discount JA gives PS members, it'd be about $56,000ish. It scored a 2.0 on the HCA so I'd put it on hold and request an idealscope. From the video you can see the stone faces up very white.

One more. This one's graded AGS 0 (which is really good) and after the JA discount $65,200ish:

http://www.jamesallen.com/#!/loose-diamonds/round-cut/3.08-carat-H-color-VS1-clarity-Ideal-cut-sku-46564

 

[Ddmm]

Thanks for the suggestion. I will check it up. Mind if you could provide give me some of your thoughts about the Inclusions - feather & twinning wisp. Are these neligable checks when considering a diamond?

 

[04diamond<3]

Thanks for the suggestion. I will check it up. Mind if you could provide give me some of your thoughts about the Inclusions - feather & twinning wisp. Are these neligable checks when considering a diamond?

I'm far more concerned with the fact that the stone is cut poorly. A VS1 stone is not something I'd be concerned about. If the stone is eye clean (which is harder to do with a bigger stone), then I really wouldn't worry about it. But I wouldn't pay 60k for a stone with that cut.

** I will say that if that feather is up against the edge, I'd also be concerned with that being detrimental to the stone (ie: it cracking or chipping).

 

[yssie]

Thanks for the suggestion. I will check it up. Mind if you could provide give me some of your thoughts about the Inclusions - feather & twinning wisp. Are these neligable checks when considering a diamond?

In your case yes, in context - we're talking about a reputably graded VS1. If it was an SI1 our answers would be different. With a VS1 you don't need to worry about clarity at all

Do you have any pictures or any more info on that first stone? It ranks poorly on HCA but considering GIA rounding... larger stones with proportions like that (super high crowns) are rarer, and I personally love a stone with a high crown and small table so I'd be interested in finding out more.

I should clarify: I would only consider buying it from a vendor who could provide more info, pics, and a (trusted) review, but from a vendor like that I personally would put it in the "investigate further" bucket.

 

[Ddmm]

How is that so that GIA graded this stone with excellent cut when it is actually not a good cut? Pardon me for all the questions as I am really new in this area and hoping to purchase a nice diamond within my budget.

 

[yssie]

How is that so that GIA graded this stone with excellent cut when it is actually not a good cut? Pardon me for all the questions as I am really new in this area and hoping to purchase a nice diamond within my budget.

Gotta run, back in an hour or so w/ my 2c. I'm not so good at keeping it brief so.. heads up

 

[bunnycat]

How is that so that GIA graded this stone with excellent cut when it is actually not a good cut? Pardon me for all the questions as I am really new in this area and hoping to purchase a nice diamond within my budget.

GIA's parameters for excellent cut are a broader than AGS ideal, so just because it says GIA EX doesn't automatically make a great performer. AGS ideal parameters are a subset of EX cut stones, if you want to think of it that way. You'll have too look at how all the angles combine and hopefully Idealscope or ASET images, which seems to me like for a stone of this size and amount you are planning on spending, would be a perfectly reasonable request. Yssie will probably explain it better.

 

[Ddmm]

This the pics of the stone.

 

[Niel]

I know its an L but with the flour and cut i think its worth consideration if being set in a solitaite
http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamonds/diamond-details/3.256-l-vs2-round-diamond-ags-bl-104060998001

 

[bunnycat]

and t his as well, an I vs2

http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamonds/diamond-details/3.125-i-vs2-round-diamond-ags-104062605004

 

[Ddmm]

Here is another pic.

 

[Niel]

Haha i completely forgot your budget i thought it was 30k id get that one bastetcat pasted in a heartbeat

 

[bunnycat]

Here is another pic.

read the report, and agree with the others. I just don't like the look of it. It has weird things going on under the table. (Sorry, I"m not an expert at what I'm seeing, and perhaps if Yssie agrees she will explain, that's just my opinion on viewing it.)

 

[JulieN]

Super Ideal 3+cts G VS1 not so easy to find. Get a smaller, ideal stone and see if they are equally beautiful.

The AGS H VS1 looks nice...

I suggest you compare the relative advantage of bankwire prices if your CC has good miles/cashback

 

[yssie]

How is that so that GIA graded this stone with excellent cut when it is actually not a good cut? Pardon me for all the questions as I am really new in this area and hoping to purchase a nice diamond within my budget.

There are a lot of things going on here. The short version is bastet's summary - different labs and tools are designed by different people with different preferences for different purposes and so have different scales and metrics. There isn't a single tool that we can point to and say "use that to choose a winner!!" - and when you're buying a stone everything's a tool - photos, lab reports, plug-n-play programmes like HCA... but they can be really helpful in deciding which stones to leave out.

GIA splits cut grade for RBs into multiple categories - EX, VG, etc. Each category includes a range of proportions combinations. GIA is NOT suggesting that an EX with proportions X/Y/X is "better" or "more desirable" or "more valuable" than another EX w/ proportions A/B/C - as far as they're concerned all EXs are equal. Others - other people, PSers, other labs - don't all agree with the various ranges of proportions GIA has included in their top cut grade - AGSL's 0 grade will include some stones that wouldn't make GIA EX and will exclude some GIA EXs, HCA has yet another set of parameters, that sort of thing. GIA averages measurements around the eight sections of stone, then rounds those measurements, prints them on the report, and uses them to assign a cut grade from a chart. That's why we caution against ignoring 'marginal' GIAs, the numbers on the report don't tell us about what ranges went into those averages, whether those values are rounded... it's especially true when we're talking about sizes like this where well-cut stones are rare period - the pool is a whole lot smaller so you don't have the luxury of tossing candidates out the window willy-nilly like you would if you wanted a smaller stone!

HCA takes only four inputs and tells you only whether a stone is likely worth further investigation. It doesn't tell you whether a stone is definitely worth further investigation, it doesn't tell you whether a stone that "fails" is definitely not worth investigation, it doesn't tell you whether a stone is a guaranteed winner, and it doesn't tell you whether a stone is a guaranteed doozy. Again, if you were looking for a 1ct you could stick strictly to stones scoring under 2 and not bother to investigating any others and still have scores to choose from, but the game changes because you're looking for something very different.

AGSL will issue a variety of reports for an RB, and each report has a different way of assigning cut grades, and the reports have changed over the years - it's terribly confusing. PS has a love affair with the post-2006 Platinum report specifically (the performance-based Diamond Quality Document) - the light performance analysis bit tells you that instead of assigning a cut grade based on a set of charts like GIA does, or like the pre-2006 DQD did, they scan the stone, run it through a proprietary ray tracing programme, and assign a final cut grade based on the outcome of that. They do have charts but final cut grade is based on programme results and stones that fall outside the right boxes on the charts may still earn the grade - or not. Some of the DQD reports have simulated ASET images printed on them - those are handy too.

Neither GIA nor AGSL consider optical symmetry at all when grading cut. When you look into a stone you see more than the physical facets that the stone is actually made of - you see internal reflections of facets, and reflections of reflections... optical symmetry is the symmetry of that pattern of reflections of all those virtual facets, vs. the symmetry grade on the report - "facet meet" symmetry, how well all the facets line up... it obviously affects optical symmetry but because of the ways symmetry can be downgraded it's possible to get a precise and radially symmetric optical pattern with less-than-excellent "facet meet" symmetry. Rare, but possible - there was an Infinity w/ VG sym once and Crafted by Infinity stones are among the cream of the crop when it comes to H&A. What that actually means for you - if you want a stone w/ the sort of precision cutting that results in those perfect hearts and arrows patterns you need to buy from a reputable H&A dealer or get some really good pics through a H&A viewer, you can't go by the reports, and you don't need picture-perfect H&A to get fantastic light return. Neither GIA nor AGSL consider the effects of body colour or inclusions on light return when grading cut, but for the sorts of stones you're looking at those obviously aren't concerns!

 

[yssie]

Did your vendor take those pics? Camera's way too close and the entire thing is obstructing - tell them to get further away or put some white paper w/ a hole for the lens in front of the camera... and not to bother sending customers cutesy flare pics, those aren't at all helpful.

How will you be setting it? Are you looking at a more open setting that's going to let a lot of light get to the underside? It's pretty clearly leaking a bit under the table (letting light escape out the back of the stone) on the L in that first pic even at that slight tilt, not a good candidate for a more enclosed setting. But if you're thinking of a very open setting (semi bezel or something) I'd say leave it in the "maybe" pile, the patterning is nice and like I said before I'm a complete sucker for a high crown on a large stone - I love coloured light return and I can live with a little leakage that ups my odds of seeing the colour, but many PSers would disagree

 

[Ddmm]

Thanks for the comprehensive explanation. I had to read it several times and still couldn't understand all the info. Correct me if I am not wrong, in short it is difficult to find a stone that will be rated excellent and gets a low HCA score as well as meets other criteria due to the size and budget. You think I should go ahead to purchase this stone as long as I don't mind some leakage and HCA score of 3.6 as it has other pros like small table and nice pattern.

 

[yssie]

Thanks for the comprehensive explanation. I had to read it several times and still couldn't understand all the info. Correct me if I am not wrong, in short it is difficult to find a stone that will be rated excellent and gets a low HCA score as well as meets other criteria due to the size and budget. You think I should go ahead to purchase this stone as long as I don't mind some leakage and HCA score of 3.6 as it has other pros like small table and nice pattern.

The main thing here is that you have to be a bit more conservative about tossing potential candidates than if you were looking for a more common size - well-cut stones get exponentially more difficult to find the larger you get because a tiny bit of extra carat weight is worth so much more in the larger sizes...

I do NOT think you should purchase this stone off the bat unless you're really, really in a hurry! I do think you should consider having it shipped out to see in-person and let your eyes tell you whether or not they like it. (That might mean purchasing the stone knowing that if you don't like it you'll return it, or you could find out if JA would be willing to ship to an appraiser without requiring full purchase?)

 

[Ddmm]

I have been searching through JA, Bluenile n goodoldgold sites and there seems to have several better choices at similar price. However I am living in Asia and finds it risky to purchase such a big ticket over the Internet. I had wrote to Bluenile if there were other options in doing the purchase and there was none. I found this stone in a local jewelry store and had seen the physical stone but was not able to decide being an amateur. If I need to do a purchase from JA I might need to source the help of a friend in NYC but didn't really like the idea of bothering others. Such a dilemma....

 

[04diamond<3]

I have been searching through JA, Bluenile n goodoldgold sites and there seems to have several better choices at similar price. However I am living in Asia and finds it risky to purchase such a big ticket over the Internet. I had wrote to Bluenile if there were other options in doing the purchase and there was none. I found this stone in a local jewelry store and had seen the physical stone but was not able to decide being an amateur. If I need to do a purchase from JA I might need to source the help of a friend in NYC but didn't really like the idea of bothering others. Such a dilemma....

JA can send it to you. You can check and see on their page at the bottom left corner if they do ship to your area and how much it'd cost. If you do get it from JA, I really wouldn't worry it.

 

[Niel]

i still vote that Brian gavin one, there is nothing wrong with an I, with that said, this is at the higher end of your budget, but also, he might offer a little bit of a PS discount, i cant remember if GOG does that
http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/10288/

 

[diamondseeker2006]

If a person thinks they like GIA G color, I would not recommend an AGS I color stone at all. I recommend no lower than GIA H or AGS G.

That said, this stone (posted previously) looks really good if the G VS1 has leakage. This would be a safe purchase if you can handle H VS2:

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/10288/