Help with a 5ct+ ring

[PintoBean]

On a white holder.


And that's all she wrote!

 

[PintoBean]

I'm having fun pouring over my pictures again on my phone!

In a nutshell, if the bugger of an inclusion can be removed through clarity enhancement, and you love old cuts that are LARGE, this is truly a stunning stone to add to your collection.

 

[seekingshiny]

Yay PintoBean for coming through! It's awesome that you took the time to check it out for bpc; I remember when I last was visiting NYC I wanted to go to GOG but it was 1 hr+ from the city

That said, I think PintoBean's great (and funny!) description and photos are spot on. I thought that the inclusion could be prominent in GOG's photos, and I think that it is even more obvious in PintoBean's photos. That said, it does flash really pretty pastel colors.

I guess that if you're open to it you could ask whether clarity enhancement could potentially be an option. Personally, with that visible of an inclusion so prominent (and as I personally don't like clarity enhancement), it would be a deal-breaker for me, although it is huge and beautiful.

 

[tyty333]

I'm having fun pouring over my pictures again on my phone!

In a nutshell, if the bugger of an inclusion can be removed through clarity enhancement, and you love old cuts that are LARGE, this is truly a stunning stone to add to your collection.

Pinto...you have quite the imagination! Only you could bring bunnies doing "it" into the description of a stone!

So wow, bpc must be really dissapointed seeing that he was suppose to be getting a VS stone and it ends up an SI2.

It looks to be such a beautiful stone with the exception of the "bunny".

 

[Lookinagain]

for me, I could not spend that kind of money on a stone that would need to be clarity enhanced to make me happy with the way it looked. The faceting is gorgeous, I like the color, and if the inclusion doesn't bother you then fine. But if you are not happy with the inclusion then I can't imagine that you can't find something else that would make you happy without enhancement.

 

[ac117]

for me, I could not spend that kind of money on a stone that would need to be clarity enhanced to make me happy with the way it looked. The faceting is gorgeous, I like the color, and if the inclusion doesn't bother you then fine. But if you are not happy with the inclusion then I can't imagine that you can't find something else that would make you happy without enhancement.

+1 to this!!! That inclusion is big and darker than I thought...if it bothers you now, it always will. It also great differs from the specs you wanted so I'd either have them cut another or continue the search.

 

[aac2013]

Thanks PintoBean for posting the additional pics!

What a shame that the inclusion is in such a bad place. It is such a lovely stone otherwise.

 

[bpc]

PintoBean, thanks so much for this. The pictures are super helpful, looks like the inclusion is pretty obvious to the naked eye. Don't want to mess with clarity enhancement. Too bad...I like the shape very much, but unless if the price were drastically lower I think it's gotta be a refund. Thanks for the help.

Hope someone who doesn't mind the optics buys it from Jonathan soon, hope he doesn't lose too much on this/the cutter/rough seller compensates him.

 

[fige]

Is this Bpc's diamond after laser treatment? http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond-search/5.11-august_vintage_cushion-I-AGS-J-SI1-diamond-stock-15874-cert-104090995001

I remember seeing it on GOG's site as a SI2 pre laser treatment for $60kish and BPC said that GOG offered it to him for $75k? Surely it's the same diamond or am I going crazy?

 

[Rhino]

Is this Bpc's diamond after laser treatment? http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond-search/5.11-august_vintage_cushion-I-AGS-J-SI1-diamond-stock-15874-cert-104090995001

I remember seeing it on GOG's site as a SI2 pre laser treatment for $60kish and BPC said that GOG offered it to him for $75k? Surely it's the same diamond or am I going crazy?

Yep. It's the same diamond and you're not crazy. We're offering it up for a touch over cost. We also posted a video of it as well on the channel with 2 other of the larger AVC's.

It is now totally eye clean and the clarity grade went up! No more eye visible black inclusion.

 

[fige]

Wow, what amazing customer service to offer the stone to bcp significantly below cost before! Definitely proves that you really are trying to make customers happy through the custom avc process?

Bcp, any update on your stone search?

 

[diamondseeker2006]

The laser treatment made a huge difference! I'd certainly consider it now at the right price considering it has had clarity enhancement. I do wonder if BPC has seen this.

 

[gm89uk]

http://www.goodoldgold.com/clarity-enhanced-diamonds
Useful info (laser is towards the bottom of the article)
I wonder if the original price + labour would still be offered.

 

[Rhino]

Good question. The diamond is being offered for little over what it was purchased for but we are open to offers.

 

[msop04]

The laser treatment made a huge difference! I'd certainly consider it now at the right price considering it has had clarity enhancement. I do wonder if BPC has seen this.

+1
Holy... that is one GORGEOUS AVC!!!

Now where's bpc??

 

[arkieb1]

I'm going to be the voice of dissent, why would anyone with that type of money to spend want a clarity enhanced stone. They don't hold their value and they are hard to resell. Ask Jon to try again and cut something as close as possible to original specs for the original price.

 

[mrs-b]

I feel like I'm missing something here.

If it was on the site for 60k, why was it offered to bcp for 75k? And now it's 91.5k? How much does laser treatment cost?! And - dealers might not be legally required to disclose that a diamond has been laser treated, but, ethically speaking, clarity enhanced is clarity enhanced, surely....

I just don't get how we got from 60k to 90k.

 

[Diamondz1]

I'm going to be the voice of dissent, why would anyone with that type of money to spend want a clarity enhanced stone. They don't hold their value and they are hard to resell. Ask Jon to try again and cut something as close as possible to original specs for the original price.

+1

I feel like I'm missing something here.

If it was on the site for 60k, why was it offered to bcp for 75k? And now it's 91.5k? How much does laser treatment cost?! And - dealers might not be legally required to disclose that a diamond has been laser treated, but, ethically speaking, clarity enhanced is clarity enhanced, surely....

I just don't get how we got from 60k to 90k.

+1

When confirming the sale of the rough to me the seller noted that it was expected to be a I-J/VS stone. Recently though, he told me that AGS was debating between I-J/SI, and at time of sale it was expected to be H-I/SI which contradicts our original emails stating I-J/VS.

Question about bpc's previous comment above: Is it common practice for the seller to be in contact with the lab while grading is under way? Does GIA also do this? I find that a little uncomfortable. It seems in conflict with an independent evaluation that a seller is able to chat with the lab, considering they have a financial interest in the outcome.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

It is not unusual for there to be questions when the cutter or stone owner bought the rough at a certain grade and then the lab grades it differently. I can assure you the lab is impartial when a diamond is asked to be reevaluated. Sometimes they will take another look, and sometimes they don't. There is nothing out of line about questioning at all.

Smart diamond buyers will look at the price of 5 ct J SI2's (plus added value for the cut) to come up with a reasonable value of the stone. The list price isn't all that relevant in this particular case since Jon has said they will consider offers, and I am sure they know the list price is not reasonable.

 

[Diamondz1]

It is not unusual for there to be questions when the cutter or stone owner bought the rough at a certain grade and then the lab grades it differently. I can assure you the lab is impartial when a diamond is asked to be reevaluated. Sometimes they will take another look, and sometimes they don't. There is nothing out of line about questioning at all.

I'm assuming the grading process is done completely blindly, and that the graders have no knowledge of the owner or of the expected grade, right? If this stone was submitted and returned with a grade, then resubmitted for a second evaluation, that does sounds independent and wouldn't be an issue.

From the way the OP wrote his post though, it sounded like the owner and the lab were conversing pre-confirmation of grade, and that the owner was sharing that status update with the OP. If that were the case, I wouldn't personally consider that to be best-practice on either the owner or the lab's side.

Perhaps those conversations can be had while still remaining impartial, and maybe it is common practice, but it's such a closed industry and the consumer has so little information about what goes on behind the scenes - getting that little glimmer about the process is less than comforting :/

 

[fige]

Smart diamond buyers will look at the price of 5 ct J SI2's (plus added value for the cut) to come up with a reasonable value of the stone.

Is there a standard premium that attaches to branded ideal cuts or august vintage cuts?

I'm not interested in the stone, just trying to piece together my understanding.

 

[tyty333]

Smart diamond buyers will look at the price of 5 ct J SI2's (plus added value for the cut) to come up with a reasonable value of the stone.

Is there a standard premium that attaches to branded ideal cuts or august vintage cuts?

I'm not interested in the stone, just trying to piece together my understanding.

Most definitely...AGS000 stone that you cant get just anywhere (thats what the plus added value for the cut is about).

 

[Rhino]

Greeetings PS friends,

As I operate in a spirit of transparency I'll lay it out simple. These won't be precise numbers particular to the diamond in this thread but you'll get the idea.

Rough diamond purchased at $20,000 to sell for $22,500.

After cutting, grading etc. it comes back a grade lower than what was paid. Cutters and buyers of rough who submit to GIA, AGS, etc. can and often do contest the grade and request a recheck if they feel it was graded to harshly or even perhaps loosely. This can be done on color, clarity, polish etc. in fact we've done it with clients diamonds on consignment in the past if we felt it would get a higher grade with GIA/AGS and have seen grades changed to their benefit.

Getting back to the diamond ...

In order for the diamond to sell it must be priced more in line with market value for the brand. There is a notable difference in price from SI1 to Si2 so for a short period of time we had it priced considerably lower than what we actually paid. So ... diamond we paid 20k for we were offering for 16k and losing capital if someone wanted to purchase it with the former inclusion. We did however raise it to the grade we paid for by eliminating the inclusion, not via the filling method which GIA/AGS will *not* grade, but by laser. Why? Because it's permanent and is never undone. Doing that made the diamond 100% eye clean, raised the diamond to the clarity grade it was purchased for and instead of selling it for the $22,500 price is now being offered for $20,400.

A branded item like this has a current list of $89.4k.

If you have any other questions I'm happy to answer.

Kind regards,
Rhino

 

[Blingalingaling]

Hmmm...Not sure I'm understanding this.

Rhino, you started off by saying hypothetically, the stone was to sell for $22,500 if all had gone as planned...How did the hypothetical retail price (value?) jump to $89,400 WITH clarity enhancement? Are you saying because it's "eye clean" now that it's worth that much more than it would have been? Wouldn't it have been eye clean if all had gone as originally planned? The color is now the color it was originally supposed to be, yes? So then, you're saying the difference between an SI2 and an SI1 is $67,100? Is that true even if the stone has been clarity enhanced?? And if you'd be pricing this stone at $22,400, is it really worth only $100 less than a natural SI1?
Are we comparing apples to apples here??
Is there a standardized "scale" of pricing for clarity enhanced stones like there is for natural diamonds?

 

[Blingalingaling]

Excuse me, my mistake, $2100 less than the price it would have been if it were a natural diamond. That still seems like a small differential between the price of a natural diamond and a clarity enhanced diamond to me.

And when you say "A branded item like this sells for $89.4k", do you mean a branded clarity enhanced diamond or one without enhancement?

 

[Rhino]

Hmmm...Not sure I'm understanding this.

Rhino, you started off by saying hypothetically, the stone was to sell for $22,500 if all had gone as planned...How did the hypothetical retail price (value?) jump to $89,400 WITH clarity enhancement? Are you saying because it's "eye clean" now that it's worth that much more than it would have been? Wouldn't it have been eye clean if all had gone as originally planned? The color is now the color it was originally supposed to be, yes? So then, you're saying the difference between an SI2 and an SI1 is $67,100? Is that true even if the stone has been clarity enhanced?? And if you'd be pricing this stone at $22,400, is it really worth only $100 less than a natural SI1?
Are we comparing apples to apples here??
Is there a standardized "scale" of pricing for clarity enhanced stones like there is for natural diamonds?

There isn't bling. What is considered is the amount to which it's been done. We've seen diamonds with laser drill holes all over the place and then only 1 like in this one. The more unusual thing in this case is that when we generally think of any kind of "enhancement" it's typically diamonds that are I1-I2 in clarity which are then filled and made into SI1 etc. Also the term "clarity enhanced" is more closely associated with filled diamonds. In this diamond the grade from the start was debate-able but despite that we wanted it to be eye clean.

In answer to your question about price, there is a notable difference in value in this size and quality range from SI1 to Si2... roughly 20k.

And when you say "A branded item like this sells for $89.4k", do you mean a branded clarity enhanced diamond or one without enhancement?

That is current list price on a 5.11ct J SI1.

Kind regards,
Rhino

 

[gm89uk]

Hmmm...Not sure I'm understanding this.

Rhino, you started off by saying hypothetically, the stone was to sell for $22,500 if all had gone as planned...How did the hypothetical retail price (value?) jump to $89,400 WITH clarity enhancement? Are you saying because it's "eye clean" now that it's worth that much more than it would have been? Wouldn't it have been eye clean if all had gone as originally planned? The color is now the color it was originally supposed to be, yes? So then, you're saying the difference between an SI2 and an SI1 is $67,100? Is that true even if the stone has been clarity enhanced?? And if you'd be pricing this stone at $22,400, is it really worth only $100 less than a natural SI1?
Are we comparing apples to apples here??
Is there a standardized "scale" of pricing for clarity enhanced stones like there is for natural diamonds?

I think you have muddled up. The comment on 89 thousand refers to the avc in question. The diamonds Rhino was discussing around 20k are hypothetical and I believe the 89k comment was leaving the hypothetical diamonds behind and referring to diamonds such as this AVC.

 

[Blingalingaling]

Yes, I get that.
But my question is, relative to the price of a "natural" diamond, should a clarity enhanced stone such as this one cost almost as much, percentage-wise, based on the model that Rhino put forth here (hypothetically, the price of a stone going from $22,4k down to $20,1k)? From what I understand, it is harder to re-sell or trade in a clarity enhanced stone, so is the relative "value" of that stone close to that of a natural diamond? Shouldn't the price of a clarity enhanced stone be much less than the cost of a natural diamond for that reason alone? Could the OP re-sell this diamond for the same amount of money relative to someone who re-sells that 5.11 J SI1 natural diamond that Rhino is comparing it to?

I can see the seller wanting to recoup his losses, but as a consumer, I would want the value of the stone I purchase to be there if and when I go to sell it. I'm in the camp of the OP starting over with a new stone without clarity enhancement.

 

[Rhino]

Yes, I get that.
But my question is, relative to the price of a "natural" diamond, should a clarity enhanced stone such as this one cost almost as much, percentage-wise, based on the model that Rhino put forth here (hypothetically, the price of a stone going from $22,4k down to $20,1k)? From what I understand, it is harder to re-sell or trade in a clarity enhanced stone, so is the relative "value" of that stone close to that of a natural diamond? Shouldn't the price of a clarity enhanced stone be much less than the cost of a natural diamond for that reason alone? Could the OP re-sell this diamond for the same amount of money relative to someone who re-sells that 5.11 J SI1 natural diamond that Rhino is comparing it to?

I can see the seller wanting to recoup his losses, but as a consumer, I would want the value of the stone I purchase to be there if and when I go to sell it. I'm in the camp of the OP starting over with a new stone without clarity enhancement.

Hi bling.

Just a couple of clarifications.

It is a natural earth grown diamond as opposed to faux or lab grown.

Insofar as pricing I said I'm open to offers. Retail stores offer diamonds at various price markups/structures so there isn't really a "set price" perse. Even in the world of diamond that have been lasered there is great variance in pricing within a clarity/color/cut grade depending on how much has been done to the diamond. For example we've seen diamond lasered in 5-10 spots as opposed to just 1 which traded at a different value. We may in fact change it but at the moment we're thinking and talking about it.

Kind regards,
Jonathan

 

[PintoBean]

I do have to say, even with the inclusion, it was a gorgeous stone. With the inclusion eliminated, I can imagine it being infinitely more beautiful!