Help with turquoise

[Lula]

Uppy, if you get up this way over the holidays, check out Katy's http://www.katysamericanindianarts.com
Katy is very knowledgeable and works directly with many Native American stone cutters and jewelers. She also has a fair amount of estate and vintage jewelry, as well as loose beads.

 

[Upgradable]

Lulu, I think I've been there!! Of course, it was back in the early 1990's. I bought an American Indian wedding vase. I miss Madison! What a great city. Maybe a place for retirement?

 

[RAMARAMA]

Hi , I think , If you need 6mm round beads matrix. Stabilization, 16" length, then you get 95 to 100 US$ per string

 

[innerkitten]

I don't know if you guys saw this in the news a few months back, but Jane Austen's turquoise ring was up for auction. And as you can see in the photo. The stone seems to be in very good condition.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/9391024/Turquoise-Jane-Austen-ring-sells-for-150000-at-auction.html

 

[minousbijoux]

That ring is gorgeous! Too bad it went for so much, as it would be awesome to own something owned by Jane Austen. I'm curious to know her ring size too.

 

[Starzin]

Wow...what a find IK...wouldn't it be wonderful to have a ring with that provenance.

Uppy if I understand correctly you are now looking for this but with turquoise nuggets. So I had the thought that someone like DanielM on etsy could do this simply and inexpensively since he works with outside gems and would only have to provide sterling chain and a clasp if you bought some nice turquoise nuggets.

So back to The Turquoise Chick who currently has a 16" strand of 7-8mm Castle Dome nuggets on sale at a very affordable price. This will be more than you need but will allow you to pick and choose which ones you want for the necklace and perhaps save the rest for a surprise matching bracelet for her birthday? (if it's after the graduation). http://theturquoisechick.com/castledome.htm (bottom left)




There is this set over at http://www.madaboutjewellery.co.uk/acatalog/tantalising_turquoise_set.html which is at the top or your budget and they say "Handcrafted by a master craftsman using the most expensive and perfect of pale blue Turquoise,...".
I guess you could get your local jeweller to snip off the pendant just below the top stone and use the bottom two stones of the pendant and the earrings yourself - two for the price of one It looks to be superb turquoise but I don't know if they can verify that it is stabilized but hasn't been dyed.

 

[innerkitten]

Wow...what a find IK...wouldn't it be wonderful to have a ring with that provenance.

Uppy if I understand correctly you are now looking for this but with turquoise nuggets. So I had the thought that someone like DanielM on etsy could do this simply and inexpensively since he works with outside gems and would only have to provide sterling chain and a clasp if you bought some nice turquoise nuggets.

So back to The Turquoise Chick who currently has a 16" strand of 7-8mm Castle Dome nuggets on sale at a very affordable price. This will be more than you need but will allow you to pick and choose which ones you want for the necklace and perhaps save the rest for a surprise matching bracelet for her birthday? (if it's after the graduation). http://theturquoisechick.com/castledome.htm (bottom left)




There is this set over at http://www.madaboutjewellery.co.uk/acatalog/tantalising_turquoise_set.html which is at the top or your budget and they say "Handcrafted by a master craftsman using the most expensive and perfect of pale blue Turquoise,...".
I guess you could get your local jeweller to snip off the pendant just below the top stone and use the bottom two stones of the pendant and the earrings yourself - two for the price of one It looks to be superb turquoise but I don't know if they can verify that it is stabilized but hasn't been dyed.

Good idea. It would probably be an affordable project and with nice turquoise. There may be some other Etsy vendors that could do it too with your turquoise.

 

[chrono]

I am highly suspicious of such bright turquoise blue stones with hardly any matrix, and so many nuggets for only $44. Has it been treated to remove the "staining"? Is it dyed? Is it reconstituted? I looked all over the website but there was no mention of treatment.

 

[Starzin]

I am highly suspicious of such bright turquoise blue stones with hardly any matrix, and so many nuggets for only $44. Has it been treated to remove the "staining"? Is it dyed? Is it reconstituted? I looked all over the website but there was no mention of treatment.

From my first post on page 1...

Firstly read The Turquoise Chick's info about stabilization and dying http://linvalentine.wordpress.com/

Then the 5 types of turquoise http://www.theturquoisechick.com/kinds.htm

There used to be write ups on all the different mines but I see she's having some trouble with the Home page and the info page seems to have disappeared.
I found it here http://www.theturquoisechick.com/mines.htm

If you had scrolled down far enough you would also see this on the bottom of every page -
All of our turquoise beads are natural color
A Certificate of Authenticity Provided With Each Turquoise Purchase

 

[Starzin]

In the blog there is also a link to this "Fake and Dyed Turquoise Examples" page http://www.theturquoisechick.com/examples.htm

 

[innerkitten]

There is always the link from the sleeping beauty mine's own website. They have some beads. You could contact them to get info on treatment etc.

http://www.truebluejewelry.com/Bead-Strands_c113.htm

This page has some interesting videos
http://www.sleepingbeautymine.com/

 

[Upgradable]

You folks are great!!! I think the small nuggets from Castle Dome are perfect for the project. Now I'll just need to search out a jeweler/beader who can translate what I have in my mind into the perfect piece. Yeah, that ought to be easy.

http://theturquoisechick.com/castledome.htm

 

[FrekeChild]

I thought of this:

http://www.tiffany.com/Shopping/Ite...params=s+5-p+1-c+563631-r+-x+-n+6-ri+-ni+0-t+

There is also a bracelet:
http://www.tiffany.com/Shopping/Ite...params=s+5-p+1-c+563631-r+-x+-n+6-ri+-ni+0-t+

 

[Starzin]

IK - that was an interesting video, thanks for the link.

Uppy: I hope it works out for you - looking forward to the design pics

 

[Upgradable]

Freke, these are beautiful!

 

[chrono]

Starzin,
I refuse to take the vendor at their word that their turquoise is undyed. I read through your link and basically, all the vendor said is "trust me". Their certificate is also worthless because it is created by them, and again requires that I trust their claim. It is a conflict of interest when a vendor issues their own report. Reports should always be done by a trusted independent third party who does not stand to benefit financially from the sale.

Uppy has purchased from a trusted vendor once and it turned out to be a synthetic turquoise. I'm being cautious, better to be safe than sorry. There's just too many red flags for me about those beads.

 

[innerkitten]

Starzin,
I refuse to take the vendor at their word that their turquoise is undyed. I read through your link and basically, all the vendor said is "trust me". Their certificate is also worthless because it is created by them, and again requires that I trust their claim. It is a conflict of interest when a vendor issues their own report. Reports should always be done by a trusted independent third party who does not stand to benefit financially from the sale.

Uppy has purchased from a trusted vendor once and it turned out to be a synthetic turquoise. I'm being cautious, better to be safe than sorry. There's just too many red flags for me about those beads.

I wish I knew which vendor that was BTW so I could avoid them. Uppy if you remember at some point let us know.

 

[innerkitten]

Starzin,
I refuse to take the vendor at their word that their turquoise is undyed. I read through your link and basically, all the vendor said is "trust me". Their certificate is also worthless because it is created by them, and again requires that I trust their claim. It is a conflict of interest when a vendor issues their own report. Reports should always be done by a trusted independent third party who does not stand to benefit financially from the sale.

Uppy has purchased from a trusted vendor once and it turned out to be a synthetic turquoise. I'm being cautious, better to be safe than sorry. There's just too many red flags for me about those beads.

You could do the bead breaking test. I think the idea is that it will show you if the color and matrix go all the way through the beads. You use one bead from the strand as a tester bead.

 

[partgypsy]

http://www.stonesnsilver.com/categories/By_Stone.aspx

I bought some nice turquoise from them. I also bought beads from another website but it was more expensive, can't remember.

 

[Starzin]

(Chrono) Starzin,
I refuse to take the vendor at their word that their turquoise is undyed. I read through your link and basically, all the vendor said is "trust me".
Well not quite….
We use a proprietary colorless process, meaning we created our own closely guarded formula that organically stabilizes without the use of dyes. All of our turquoise beads are natural color and you will get that in writing when you purchase from us.
Probably equivalent or better than any claim on any of the trusted vendors’ sites.

(Chrono) Their certificate is also worthless because it is created by them, and again requires that I trust their claim.
I disagree in this case since if the turquoise was stated to be genuine turquoise with colourless stabilization only, then later tested and found to be dyed or howlite/magnesite/Hubei, then it amounts to fraudulent misrepresentation. Having a statement in writing from the vendor as to what they sold you provides a document for recourse through what we here call the Small Claims Court (I assume the US has something similar) – providing a buyer wanted to pursue that avenue.

(Chrono) It is a conflict of interest when a vendor issues their own report. Reports should always be done by a trusted independent third party who does not stand to benefit financially from the sale.
Oh please! You’ve seen me post the same information in other threads. As I read it, this is not intended to be a lab report or appraisal, but more in the line of a statement/certificate of authenticity as to what treatment they have applied to genuine turquoise.

I have no desire to argue or jump through hoops for you, you are as capable as I am of Googling up information about turquoise and I have no vested interest in defending this vendor. However I did view several sites once I knew what Uppy was looking for and had visited The Turquoise Chick (TTC) website before. On comparison with others, I felt this might be an affordable option for genuine turquoise for her project. The type of stone Uppy is looking for is not likely to be found through any of the regular lapidaries and probably leaves the bead merchants, of which this is only one but it sounded to me as though she was prepared to stand by her product.

Uppy:
As you know, in any purchase it’s buyer beware. Don’t let any of this put you off creating a beautiful keepsake gift for your daughter’s graduation because I do believe it is achievable. It has often been said on PS that there are stones for every budget and I believe it also holds true for turquoise. It doesn’t have to be dyed howlite or plastic. As always, arm yourself with some knowledge by reading carefully and asking questions.

Should you buy some nuggets and want to verify the turquoise (understandable in light of your previous experience), you could either try breaking/sawing a stone yourself as IK suggested or ask AGL what tests they would do for a gem brief i.e. detect gem material, dying, method of stabilization etc. and what they would actually state on the brief.

I think you would only need to sacrifice one bead to the process though as from what I’ve read, the test of last resort is “heat to destruction” so I wouldn’t give them the whole strand
That means the strand would cost ~$45 (on sale) + $55 for the AGL report = $100
However you would also have peace of mind.

In the interest of providing some information links for future seekers of turquoise:
Two articles and a video:
http://www.magpiegemstones.com/about_gemstones.html

Types of turquoise described by law:
http://www.collectorsguide.com/fa/fa098.shtml

Turquoise mines - - a very comprehensive list
http://www.skystonetrading.com/turquoise-mines-and-map/chapter/1

I wonder if this is part of AGL's testing
http://www.ganoksin.com/borisat/nenam/turquoise.htm
It is easy to test turquoise to see if it is stabilized or impregnated. We can call the test the "shot glass technique". Simply put an inch or so of clean rubbing alcohol (or gin or vodka as long as it is colorless) in to a colorless shot glass and drop the turquoise into the liquid; if the turquoise darkens in the liquid, it is absorbing liquid and has not been infused with anything. If the stone is not treated the alcohol will quickly evaporate out. Material that has been stabilized or impregnated cannot absorb the alcohol! This really is fun isn't it?

 

[chrono]

Starzin,
We have to agree to disagree then. Their formulation is stated to be secret so I am required to believe their claim and trust it. There are also plenty of fraudulent vendors in the US and yet they continue to ply their goods online without being brought to court. Think about it; yes it is affordable and very pretty. I agree completely with you on that. The next question is why is it so pretty and so affordable when I see other turquoise of this quality from other proven and reputable vendors cost at least 10 times the price?

It is up to Uppy to decide if it is worth getting a strand of $44 beads checked out. For that price, I wouldn't but will also suspect in the back of my mind that they aren't kosher. If she really wants to be 100% sure and if it matters a lot to her, then she should have them checked out by either a lab or someone like Dave Atlas.

 

[chrono]

It is also misleading to think that all stabilizing processes are created equally. Below is just general info for everyone to be aware that stabilization is more than just applying a coating of wax. This is not written to support or disagree with any posts above. It is a paper published in Gems & Gemology, 1999.
http://www.turquoiseguide.com/articles/turquoise/turquoise-basics/treated-turquoise.htm

Plastic Hardening
A process which involves forcing a plastic material to fill the pores throughout softer stones. Plastic hardening is often combined with dye to enhance the colour of the "stone." The plastic/stone hybrid produced is similar to the Reconstituted Turquoise. Most inexpensive "Turquoise" is produced by this method.

Silica Treatment
This process forces silica into the pores of softer stone, resulting in a stone which imitates naturally hard, better quality Turquoise. This is difficult to detect.

Chemical Treatments
These can be used both to stabilize and colour soft stones. In some cases, a second heat treatment is used to dissipate any chemical residues, making the treatment more difficult to detect.

Waxing
This process is used to seal porous stones. Some of the waxes used are similar to those used to wax Emeralds. The treatment can prevent staining, but can sometimes be used to add colouring and fill voids. Unless waxing is repeated, wear can lead to uneven aging on the stone. Waxing using a non-coloured wax does not usually affect value, though it can make it more difficult to detect other treatments.

Resin Sealing
Used to harden the surface of soft, porous stones. However, this process is often used to disguise dyed stones, preventing the dye from rubbing or wearing off.

 

[chrono]

Continued...

Zachery Enhancement Method
There is another method that is often used called the Zachery Method. The method is named after its developer, James E. Zachery, an electrical engineer and active trader of turquoise.

This is a proprietary enhancement method, the specifics of which are not public. The method can only be used on turquoise that is of moderate quality. The turquoise is soaked in a non-toxic, secret chemical brew. When dried, the stone is easier to polish and the colors may be slightly more vivid. The only way to determine if a stone has been treated with this method is by destroying it and subjecting it to a chemical analysis. In a study by Fritsch et al., published in Gems and Gemology, it is reported that turquoise that has been treated with the Zachery method has more potassium than natural turquoise. What other chemicals might be used in the process is unknown.

This method is regarded highly by many in the trade because it is largely undetectable, even through the eyes of an expert; leads to a stone with greater luster; and does not involve the use of dyes and hardening agents. However, since it does not strengthen the stone in any substantial way, its use is restricted to good quality turquoise.

 

[innerkitten]

It's true these are all possibilities when buying. But I say go for it they do look nice, and there is some matrix, and you can always have it checked out. She does say you can return it no problem.

Also it's only $44 dollars and you probably aren't trying to find the best turquoise out there you want real turquoise that looks good within your budget ( that's not block turquoise etc.).

 

[chrono]

I have absolutely no issues with treatment as it makes a nicer stone very affordable. What I want is open and full disclosure, not secret recipes because who knows what's in it.

 

[Starzin]

Starzin,
We have to agree to disagree then. Their formulation is stated to be secret so I am required to believe their claim and trust it. There are also plenty of fraudulent vendors in the US and yet they continue to ply their goods online without being brought to court. Think about it; yes it is affordable and very pretty. I agree completely with you on that. The next question is why is it so pretty and so affordable when I see other turquoise of this quality from other proven and reputable vendors cost at least 10 times the price?

It is up to Uppy to decide if it is worth getting a strand of $44 beads checked out. For that price, I wouldn't but will also suspect in the back of my mind that they aren't kosher. If she really wants to be 100% sure and if it matters a lot to her, then she should have them checked out by either a lab or someone like Dave Atlas.

No problem. It's a sad fact that misrepresented gems are so pervasive in all areas
If you've found a couple of vendors you feel provide a better product for comparison perhaps you could could add their links? You never know when they might have a sale too
And yes, as you have often stated, it comes down to what the individual is comfortable with.

Thanks for listing the added information on treatments, most of which I'd read elsewhere but which certainly adds to the overall information now contained in this thread.

It's true these are all possibilities when buying. But I say go for it they do look nice, and there is some matrix, and you can always have it checked out. She does say you can return it no problem.

Also it's only $44 dollars and you probably aren't trying to find the best turquoise out there you want real turquoise that looks good within your budget ( that's not block turquoise etc.).

+1 because I think essentially this is the crux of the matter

 

[Starzin]

I have absolutely no issues with treatment as it makes a nicer stone very affordable. What I want is open and full disclosure, not secret recipes because who knows what's in it.

Fair enough and I do understand where you are coming from. Unfortunately I think TTC is probably not the only one whose recipe is "proprietary"

 

[Lula]

Lulu, I think I've been there!! Of course, it was back in the early 1990's. I bought an American Indian wedding vase. I miss Madison! What a great city. Maybe a place for retirement?

Yes, it's a great store -- and it's still on the same street as it was in the 1990s and in the same building. There are some great new stores on that street, a wood-fired pizza place, and a Trader Joe's. Madison is a great retirement town, and we didn't have a huge housing bubble here, so housing prices are fairly stable. I'm learning a lot about turquoise from this thread. Most of what I own is vintage, so who knows if it's real or treated. Good luck with your project; looking forward to seeing how it turns out. I do like the Tiffany's stones by the yard design.