MoonWater
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Hillary Clinton to concede TONIGHT.
- Thread starter luckystar112
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FrekeChild
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Yeesh. Well at least she seems to have given in to the idea that Obama won it. I think McCain needs to steal her speech writer if he plans on campaigning instead of keeling over. (I like the color of her suit though, it matches the shoes in my avatar!!!)
Now what do you guys think that Obama will say?
ETA: I know Moon! Think we should start a new one?
Now what do you guys think that Obama will say?
ETA: I know Moon! Think we should start a new one?
jcrow
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Kaleigh
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MoonWater
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FrekeChild
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MoonWater
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FrekeChild
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Multiple medical professionals who have no interest in the race have actually said that he''s showing outward signs of either impending heart attack or stroke. One of them is a RN who has worked in the cardiology department and the emergency room of our most major hospital for the past 30 years. She''s said that she''d put money on him having a stroke within the next year.
Plus, just by looking at him, you can see that he doesn''t look healthy. I''m not a trained medical professional, and I really do think he looks like...he''s not for this world for much longer. And it''s not just me. Otherwise he never would have had that clean bill of health proclaimed to the media. You know?
As for the "clean bill of health" he got...I''m sure that there wasn''t ANY pressure from the Republicans and his campaign to give that to him.
Plus, just by looking at him, you can see that he doesn''t look healthy. I''m not a trained medical professional, and I really do think he looks like...he''s not for this world for much longer. And it''s not just me. Otherwise he never would have had that clean bill of health proclaimed to the media. You know?
As for the "clean bill of health" he got...I''m sure that there wasn''t ANY pressure from the Republicans and his campaign to give that to him.
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MoonWater
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I''ll put this here since she''s a Hillary supporter but my goodness, Ferraro is an idiot. Seriously...she cites Obama''s edcuation and background as the reason that the white working class can''t relate to him as if Clinton has a less prominent education/background? Really? Seriously? For realz? Race isn''t an issue at all? Huh? http://www.theroot.com/id/46697
luckystar112
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KimberlyH
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I am not registered with any political party and have yet to decide who I will vote for, I struggle, yet again, to find a candidate that I think is both competent and capable of running this country effectively, so I read these threads in hopes that I will gain some insight and understanding into how I will choose who is worthy of my vote. I am dumbfounded that Democrats are using McCain''s health as a reason why he shouldn''t be president, especially considering the longest serving member of Congress and President pro tempore of the Senate, Robert C. Byrd (D), is 89 years old. It''s as poor an argument as saying Obama is too young to run and I think it distracts from the real issues at hand: who is going to pull this country out of its economic crisis, make wise, informed decisions about how we are going to handle the war in Iraq, deal with our energy crisis while respecting natural resources, and handle the disaster that is our public education system (we''re ranked 18th on a list of the world''s richest countries).
MoonWater
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Well, I''m not using McCain''s age as the only reason not to vote for him, although I do believe there should be an age max just as their is an age min. I happen to know a very articulate, together, intelligent 88 year old that goes to work every day. But, I wouldn''t want him running for President. It''s an extremely stressful job that ages people more than normal life (even as a Senator) would. I do not believe that McCain will survive and so my worry is who he is picking as a VP in case this person ultimately becomes President.
Elmorton
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Reading the commotion about McCain''s age, I''m reminded of something I learned in a learning and behavior class college - since presidential campaigns have been televised, the most physically attractive (and if I remember right, the definition of attractive had to do with having a symmetrical face and strong features such as a square jaw and straight nose) has won every election.
Honestly, I thought John Kerry was more attractive than GW, but I remember reading a Glamour poll prior to that election where something like 70% of women found GW more attractive, so maybe my looks-o-meter is off or something.
So...I wonder if McCain looks old, if he''s less attractive to the average voter? I think Obama is a pretty good-looking guy, but his face isn''t entirely symmetrical, either, when you look at him. Hmmm.
When DH was in college a professor of his pointed out another election trend (which is actually founded in political science) - that no one has ever been elected president winning fewer than 7 southern states, so he''s really hoping that the VP candidate is a southerner considering that Obama isn''t.
Honestly, I thought John Kerry was more attractive than GW, but I remember reading a Glamour poll prior to that election where something like 70% of women found GW more attractive, so maybe my looks-o-meter is off or something.
So...I wonder if McCain looks old, if he''s less attractive to the average voter? I think Obama is a pretty good-looking guy, but his face isn''t entirely symmetrical, either, when you look at him. Hmmm.
When DH was in college a professor of his pointed out another election trend (which is actually founded in political science) - that no one has ever been elected president winning fewer than 7 southern states, so he''s really hoping that the VP candidate is a southerner considering that Obama isn''t.
KimberlyH
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The argument being made is based on age alone, not stress, and that the "stress" a senator feels is significantly less than the stress level of the president is not something we can guage. Someone who is high strung and works as a receptionist in a day spa may feel more stress than a person who works on Wall Street but is calm and focused, because that is the make up of their personalities. Obama is at high risk for lung cancer as an African-American smoker. Should that deter me from voting for him? The argument seems so insignificant, just so out of place, in light of the importance of this election, and I think it detracts from the real issues at hand.
FrekeChild
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I didn't say anything about his age. Basically my feeling on McCain's health comes more from the comparison between him and my dad (who is also 71) who does not look nearly as old (read: of failing health) as McCain. My dad is very lucky in that he has not had any major health problems yet, just very high cholesterol. However, his brother who is 74, has had 2 triple bypasses, multiple other health problems, and he looks outwardly more healthy than McCain. Age has absolutely nothing to do with it except for comparison purposes.
Also, I don't think that health is really a significant reason to not vote for him either. But, it is something to take into consideration. Other things to take into consideration-the fact that he called his wife the C word in front of the media, the fact that he has a volatile temper in general-read this, that in the Republican primary in Montana he came in THIRD behind Romney and Ron Paullink, or any of these quotes link. I believe there is another quote from Senator Domenici out there that said that he wouldn't want McCain with his finger on any triggers. About halfway down. Granted, he's endorsed him since then, but I still think it says something.
There are plenty of considerations to make both/all (is Nader running again?) of the candidates. Unfortunately in McCain's case, his health is one of those.
I'll also remind you that McCain is the oldest nominee to run for first term presidency. You mentioned Robert Byrd as being the longest serving member of Congress-elected into Congress at the ripe old age of 42. While he's old now, he wasn't then. So that's not even really comparable.
Besides, Democrats aren't the only people taking McCain's health/age into consideration-Republicans are too, not to mention McCain himself. He's very aware of the age factor and he will likely ask someone significantly younger than him to be his vice presidential candidate.
That was my perception of him, as well as some medical professionals. Big friggin' deal.
KimberlyH
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You clearly feel it is an important enough factor that you took the time to site medical professionals (who haven't treated him and perhaps have not even seen him in person) who have claimed he is in poor health. I was simply stating that I think the focus should be on the issues at hand, not the fabricated health issues of McCain.
And Byrd is comparable, as he is continually elected into office. Just because he isn't a first term nominee doesn't mean that his mutliple elections into office are any less important or meaningful. Or that his age becomes a non-factor.
These farfetched claims and the need to be divided, and associated with a party (the "Republicrats/Democrans are doing it too" mentality), are what has convoluted politics in general and made it difficult for people to make reasonable, informed decisions about who the best candidate is. It just adds to my frustration and lack of respect for political parties.
FrekeChild
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Dude, typing that took up about 3 minutes. Not a big waste of time for me to cite some people whose opinion I respect. As for *fabricated*-I think his oncologist would disagree after checking him out every few months.
It's still not comparable. Byrd isn't potentially going to be the leader of the free world the way McCain is. Yes he's been re-elected and re-elected for decades, but still he's a Senator. While I'm not belittling that position there are hundreds more Senators who can and will take over for him when he passes. Yes, there are hundreds of people who will take over for McCain when he passes, but he's still on top of the totem pole. And at the moment Byrd is two from the top of said totem pole. McCain's age certainly didn't matter until now either, did it?
Age really shouldn't be an issue. But it still is. Otherwise the age wouldn't be 45 to be elected. As for being OLD when elected-age is usually seen as being closely related to wisdom-so that explains partially why there isn't a maximum age limit for the presidential nominees. Plus, there would be calls of ageism to go along with the racism and sexism we're seeing now.
The political party system is stupid. I think there needs to be at minimum 4 *parties* but certainly not two. Perhaps bring in the Independents, Green and Libertarians!!!
But that won't happen. So, here we remain.
It's still not comparable. Byrd isn't potentially going to be the leader of the free world the way McCain is. Yes he's been re-elected and re-elected for decades, but still he's a Senator. While I'm not belittling that position there are hundreds more Senators who can and will take over for him when he passes. Yes, there are hundreds of people who will take over for McCain when he passes, but he's still on top of the totem pole. And at the moment Byrd is two from the top of said totem pole. McCain's age certainly didn't matter until now either, did it?
Age really shouldn't be an issue. But it still is. Otherwise the age wouldn't be 45 to be elected. As for being OLD when elected-age is usually seen as being closely related to wisdom-so that explains partially why there isn't a maximum age limit for the presidential nominees. Plus, there would be calls of ageism to go along with the racism and sexism we're seeing now.
The political party system is stupid. I think there needs to be at minimum 4 *parties* but certainly not two. Perhaps bring in the Independents, Green and Libertarians!!!
But that won't happen. So, here we remain.
jcrow
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FrekeChild
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MoonWater
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You can argue this if you want, obviously what I said was my opinion. However, of course age is a factor for someone that is 71 years old with a history of health issues. Despite modern science our bodies and minds decline as we get older. And like it or not, physical appears can be a good indicator of what is going on in our bodies. I''ve seen the man in person, he looks feeble to me. I just can not imagine that he''ll make it, again just my opinion. As far as Obama, although younger folks have been known to get cancer related to smoking, it more often seems to happen when they are older. My aunt (black btw) smoked for over 30 years, she is soon to be 67 and was diagnosed with lung cancer nearly two years ago. She functions like a completely normal person. I would never know anything was wrong with her. I don''t think this topic is insignificant because, as I said before, I think we have a better chance of being stuck with his VP than with past Presidents. Also, I don''t think it detracts from the the real issues at hand because I can multitask.
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I have been watching the Obama Clinton campaigns. I want to say that I respect all the candidates; Obama, Clinton, and McCain. Any of them will be better than the leadership we have been enduring for the past eight years, so in that way I feel hopeful. I am also hopeful it won''t be as dirty of a campaign (but I could be wrong).
There are 2 main things that concern me who is president. The first is do I think this person would do a good job as president? Basically are they ethical, have a good head on their shoulders, actually read, digest and make use of new information? Can I trust them to make good judgements, work under pressure? And second if they are aligned with me on the main issues. I am more concerned about whether they would be able to guide us through what will be admittedly rough waters than if they agree on every single one of my issues.
I voted for Obama in NC, and will vote for Obama in November because he strikes me as a singularly ethical person who is intelligent and think deeply about the issues. Since he is not so immeshed in the political machinery he is better positioned to make good decisions for the LONG TERM, rather than what is politically expedient (i.e. sweeping it under the rug for the next group to deal with). That is, I''m doing this for my kids.
I hope anyone who is elected this year will dig down to the fundamentals, of balanced budget, reducing our energy consumption and dependence, and improve our standing in the world (Heck just getting rid of Bush will improve our foreign relations). The war in Iraq was a big mistake. Not to mention the troops lost, it has cost us billions, created a breeding ground for terrorists, pitted us against our former allies, and made our country LESS secure. My main beef with McCain is that he sides with Bush on the war, has no exit strategy, and is more likely to escalate conflicts with other countries.
There are 2 main things that concern me who is president. The first is do I think this person would do a good job as president? Basically are they ethical, have a good head on their shoulders, actually read, digest and make use of new information? Can I trust them to make good judgements, work under pressure? And second if they are aligned with me on the main issues. I am more concerned about whether they would be able to guide us through what will be admittedly rough waters than if they agree on every single one of my issues.
I voted for Obama in NC, and will vote for Obama in November because he strikes me as a singularly ethical person who is intelligent and think deeply about the issues. Since he is not so immeshed in the political machinery he is better positioned to make good decisions for the LONG TERM, rather than what is politically expedient (i.e. sweeping it under the rug for the next group to deal with). That is, I''m doing this for my kids.
I hope anyone who is elected this year will dig down to the fundamentals, of balanced budget, reducing our energy consumption and dependence, and improve our standing in the world (Heck just getting rid of Bush will improve our foreign relations). The war in Iraq was a big mistake. Not to mention the troops lost, it has cost us billions, created a breeding ground for terrorists, pitted us against our former allies, and made our country LESS secure. My main beef with McCain is that he sides with Bush on the war, has no exit strategy, and is more likely to escalate conflicts with other countries.
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....and reverse this gallop towards a unitary, almost dictatorial executive branch. Don''t forget that one. Chances are that won''t happen with any of them, but Obama looks like our best chance. Hillary would never have given up any power, and McCain almost certainly will not.
I for one want someone who is able to synthesize the vast quantities of data, have a clue about the complexities, and then make a decision based on that, rather than his "gut" or because he felt that GOD was telling him to. We''ve seen what that does.... And it isn''t insignificant that we desperately need a well-spoken person in the White House. Almost every foreign person I know is more eloquent and speaks better english than the president of this country. If I hear one more multisyllabic mangiling of english, I think I shall scream. Bush has been an embarrassment in almost every way, but his inability to speak his mother tongue is just shameful.
Anyway, I don''t think McCain has the kind of intellect or ability to adapt, and quite frankly, the power of the baby boom is on its way out. We''re seeing that now as the millenials begin their rise to prominence and influence.
Erin
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KimberlyH
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Moon,Date: 6/5/2008 7:31:56 AM
Author: MoonWater
You can argue this if you want, obviously what I said was my opinion. However, of course age is a factor for someone that is 71 years old with a history of health issues. Despite modern science our bodies and minds decline as we get older. And like it or not, physical appears can be a good indicator of what is going on in our bodies. I've seen the man in person, he looks feeble to me. I just can not imagine that he'll make it, again just my opinion. As far as Obama, although younger folks have been known to get cancer related to smoking, it more often seems to happen when they are older. My aunt (black btw) smoked for over 30 years, she is soon to be 67 and was diagnosed with lung cancer nearly two years ago. She functions like a completely normal person. I would never know anything was wrong with her. I don't think this topic is insignificant because, as I said before, I think we have a better chance of being stuck with his VP than with past Presidents. Also, I don't think it detracts from the the real issues at hand because I can multitask.
Thank you for being able to have a conversation about this that is not fueled by anger and frustration, but thoughtfulness. The argument I presented is not mine, it was simply an example of the opposite of the argument presented about McCain's age; if I did argue that point seriously, I would hope someone would point out the faulty logic in my thinking. Your logic about the likelihood of a VP having a greater chance of being placed in office because of McCain's age makes some sense, but I'm still unsure if I feel it's a big enough issue to add to my list of pros and cons about who I'll vote for (who a nominee selects as a VP should always be taken into consideration though, since 4 of our presidents have been assasinated and we've only had 42, if memory serves). I have such a difficult time deciding, because I believe so much of what we get from any candidate is lip service and it's difficult to determine what really matters to them and what they are saying simply to sway us.
KimberlyH
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It wasn't about the time it took, it was that you felt it important enough to add to a discussion that was supposed to be about Clinton conceding. He has had melanoma. You site your father's health and the appearance of McCain as a reason you fear his becoming president, related to his age. If I followed that line of thinking I would compare him to my uncle, who at 78 has been diagnosed with melanoma 3 times. He doesn't look extremely healthy, because he's had cancer removed from his face on several occasions, but he's also one of the most phsyical fit people I know; he holds the record for weight lifted at his gym, 10 years running. So, again, if I follow your line of thinking, and compare him to someone I know who is of similar age, then my guess is McCain will live until he's in his late 80s as the doctors have predicted my uncle will. Seems like faulty logic to me, and a comparison of two people without nearly enough facts to do so accurately.
Age is an issue because people choose to make it so, by bringing it front and center when having a discussion that is otherwise unrelated.
MoonWater
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Well, it's one of my many cons against McCain but again, this depends on who he chooses as a VP. That is essentially my worry. I care more now, than I have in the past, about who is being chosen for the Vice Presidential slot. I am also concerned about Obama's VP for the very same reason (because assassination is, unfortunately, highly probable...which is another reason why I pray he doesn't choose Hillary but that's another story lol).
In McCains case, I fear he will choose a conservative, perhaps someone too close to the religious right, in order to gain as many votes as possible. It scares the living daylights out of me that a personality like that could end up running the country. I think as a result of this particular election, I'll care much more about VP candidates in general.
Also, in light of the age minimum to be President, I really do think there should be an age maximum. If people saw it fit to exclude people below the age of 35 due to the complexity and heavy responsibility of the job, I think they should do the same for folks that are much older. The average person begans losing some of their mental falculties, especially memory. Not good for the leader of the "free world." This is a tentative argument but I think I could do a whole report with evidence supporting it.
Whatever the case, it's going to be really freaking interesting between now and November (as if it hasn't been already!! I am tired lol).
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