HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/ASET

[haflc]

Hello everyone,

Just had a couple of question about clustering?

1. How much does it really effect the look of a stone?
2. Does Star facet % really have that much effect on the look?

Here is a picture of a HoF sample image from a vendor's site.
It looks like there is a lot of clustering.



The sales rep also stated that HoF does not provide the AGS DQD Platinum report with ASET, which I found odd.
Is there a reason for them not to provide that?

Thanks

 

[yssie]

Re: HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/

..what's clustering? Can't see your pic

 

[stone-cold11]

Re: HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/

no image.

no, star do not have much effect.

 

[haflc]

Re: HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/



Here it is again.

I understand clustering to be the irregular area at the center which looks like a burst.

 

[stone-cold11]

Re: HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/

That is from a H&A scope/viewer. It is showing the arrows. What you call clustering are known as table reflections, generally present in stones with deeper pavilion.

EDT:
More on table reflection.
https://www.pricescope.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=86196

 

[haflc]

Re: HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/

So here is a pic of a "true" H&A without clustering.
It's supposed to be a better cut stone, but in real life what does it translate into?
Just less reflection?

 

[yssie]

Re: HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/

the purple pic could be a H&A, need hearts image - that is a normal arrows view through H&A viewer that you have posted (is that stone a HoF? HoF is hearts and arrows, hence the "hearts" in the name).. the red pic looks like an inverse-IS..

 

[haflc]

Re: HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/



ok, here is a comparable image with a lot of clustering.

i'm just trying to figure out how important it really is.

thanks

 

[haflc]

Re: HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/

the purple pic could be a H&A, need hearts image - that is a normal arrows view through H&A viewer that you have posted (is that stone a HoF? HoF is hearts and arrows, hence the "hearts" in the name).. the red pic looks like an inverse-IS..

The Purple one is from a HoF vender site.

The Red ones or from the "original" Hearts and Arrows site. (The ones that come up with the H&A concept)

 

[yssie]

Re: HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/

Okay look at this stone for example - http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/4755/


IS and arrows view are from totally different scopes designed to show different things

ETA: purple/red colour does not matter

 

[haflc]

Re: HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/

That I do understand.

But, clustering can be seen in the IS image also.

1. My main question is how does it really effect to look of the stone and is it really noticeable when the star facet and LHF are too large.

2. Why won't HoF show us their ASET image?

 

[stone-cold11]

Re: HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/

It is not the result of star or lower half. I have already posted, it is table reflection, deeper pavilion will have larger table reflection.

Ask HOF. Are their stones AGS graded? Maybe the stones you are viewing is from before the ASET format, the old DQD format or the elect to continue using the old DQD format, so they do not have it unless they send it back to AGS for a regrading.

 

[haflc]

Re: HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/

That is from a H&A scope/viewer. It is showing the arrows. What you call clustering are known as table reflections, generally present in stones with deeper pavilion.

EDT:
More on table reflection.
https://www.pricescope.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=86196

so, if i'm reading right, the table % also effects how much clustering we see in real life.

 

[haflc]

Re: HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/

It is not the result of star or lower half. I have already posted, it is table reflection, deeper pavilion will have larger table reflection.

Ask HOF. Are their stones AGS graded? Maybe the stones you are viewing is from before the ASET format, the old DQD format or the elect to continue using the old DQD format, so they do not have it unless they send it back to AGS for a regrading.

Well here is a Quote from the inventors of the Hearts & Arrows concept:

“Clustering” or interference figures can be exaggerated by a combination of long star facets >55%, lower girdle halves >77% along with steeper pavilion angles.

 

[yssie]

Re: HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/

if this 'clustering' refers specifically to the black at the arrow shafts then yes, long lgf exaggerates

still don't see how star has anything to do with it

but the steeper pavilion comment makes me think it is just as SC describes

 

[haflc]

Re: HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/

if this 'clustering' refers specifically to the black at the arrow shafts then yes, long lgf exaggerates

still don't see how star has anything to do with it

but the steeper pavilion comment makes me think it is just as SC describes

i know that there are a few things that contribute to this effect. but i think that clustering refers to the white "splatter" around the lower portions of the shafts.

i saw the diamond in SC's link. it looks like a milky blob in the center. i just wonder how we can assess it better when looking at a IS or H&A viewer image.

I've seen AGSL Computer Generated Light Performance Map images having a blue contrast "clustering", but they are absent in the IS and ASET image on the web site. (Images of the same diamond of course).
I can't figure out why it doesn't show up on the site image and does on the AGS report image.

Maybe I'm not understanding what they represent.

 

[yssie]

Re: HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/

ags is cg image of a combination of several viewing angles

 

[haflc]

Re: HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/

ok.

so what do you think about these images?
worth getting?

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Re: HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/

if this 'clustering' refers specifically to the black at the arrow shafts then yes, long lgf exaggerates

still don't see how star has anything to do with it

but the steeper pavilion comment makes me think it is just as SC describes

i know that there are a few things that contribute to this effect. but i think that clustering refers to the white "splatter" around the lower portions of the shafts.

i saw the diamond in SC's link. it looks like a milky blob in the center. i just wonder how we can assess it better when looking at a IS or H&A viewer image.

I've seen AGSL Computer Generated Light Performance Map images having a blue contrast "clustering", but they are absent in the IS and ASET image on the web site. (Images of the same diamond of course).
I can't figure out why it doesn't show up on the site image and does on the AGS report image.

Maybe I'm not understanding what they represent.

I can tell you why you see the blue ring in between the arrows in the AGSL generated ASET image. Those areas in between the arrows of the diamond gather light from the borderline red/blue range or about 70 - 75 degrees. That is why they are seen as being red in ASET30 and blue in ASET40 in the image below. Add in even the slightest bit of sarin scan error and the generated image could be either red or blue in that region as shown.



What is the average crown and pavillion angle for the HOF diamond from the grading report?

 

[haflc]

Re: HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/

I can tell you why you see the blue ring in between the arrows in the AGSL generated ASET image. Those areas in between the arrows of the diamond gather light from the borderline red/blue range or about 70 - 75 degrees. That is why they are seen as being red in ASET30 and blue in ASET40 in the image below. Add in even the slightest bit of sarin scan error and the generated image could be either red or blue in that region as shown.

What is the average crown and pavillion angle for the HOF diamond from the grading report?

Thanks that explains it a bit more.

The first image of the HoF was just a sample image from their site, it didn't have any dimensions.
I asked them to send me some for a specific diamond but haven't heard from them yet.

I think I was asking her a lot of questions she had no clue of. (do you have a AGS platinum report, do you have an ASET image, how about a Sarin report,...)

It's interesting that sales reps from high end jewelers have not educated themselves on the things that they sell.
She assured me that i had nothing to worry about since all HoF stones are cut to strict criteria and they are all the same.

 

[haflc]

Re: HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/

I can tell you why you see the blue ring in between the arrows in the AGSL generated ASET image. Those areas in between the arrows of the diamond gather light from the borderline red/blue range or about 70 - 75 degrees. That is why they are seen as being red in ASET30 and blue in ASET40 in the image below. Add in even the slightest bit of sarin scan error and the generated image could be either red or blue in that region as shown.

So the composite AGS report shows all the possible reflections?

I have seen reports with very little blue and some with more blue.
Does it make a lot of difference in the real world?

It seems like the single snap shot ASET is ok.
Is that enough to say it is a good cut?

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Re: HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/

I can tell you why you see the blue ring in between the arrows in the AGSL generated ASET image. Those areas in between the arrows of the diamond gather light from the borderline red/blue range or about 70 - 75 degrees. That is why they are seen as being red in ASET30 and blue in ASET40 in the image below. Add in even the slightest bit of sarin scan error and the generated image could be either red or blue in that region as shown.

So the composite AGS report shows all the possible reflections?

I have seen reports with very little blue and some with more blue.
Does it make a lot of difference in the real world?

It seems like the single snap shot ASET is ok.
Is that enough to say it is a good cut?

We prefer a photograph of an actual ASET image over the generated from scan ones as found on the AGS platinum report this avoids the scan error.

If its just scan error and not seen in the photograph of the ASET then no it doesn't matter if those areas are red or blue in the generated image.

If its a diamond with too much obstruction and excessive blue in the ASET than yes excessive blue would be a problem.

I highly doubt HOF would have a problem with too deep a pavillion or obstruction but it would be worth taking a look at the grading report to know the average Crown and Pavillion angles just to confirm this.

If I was looking for a Super Ideal I would be satisifed viewing an ASET30 faceup photographed image, idealscope(not really nessessary) and hearts and arrows images.

 

[haflc]

Re: HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/

We prefer a photograph of an actual ASET image over the generated from scan ones as found on the AGS platinum report this avoids the scan error.

If its just scan error and not seen in the photograph of the ASET then no it doesn't matter if those areas are red or blue in the generated image.

If its a diamond with too much obstruction and excessive blue in the ASET than yes excessive blue would be a problem.

I highly doubt HOF would have a problem with too deep a pavillion or obstruction but it would be worth taking a look at the grading report to know the average Crown and Pavillion angles just to confirm this.

If I was looking for a Super Ideal I would be satisifed viewing an ASET30 faceup photographed image, idealscope(not really nessessary) and hearts and arrows images.

thanks again.

so what about the ASET, IS, and Composite images above how do they look?
anything that stands out?
it's not of the HoF, but another H&A.

I'll post the HoF stats when they send it to me. But i'm not sure they will.

 

[yssie]

Re: HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/

This thread: viewtopic.php?t=145324

I think it will help clarify what has been indicated thus far re. ASET picture interpretation. Don't want to type it all out again

ETA: The aset/is above look nice

 

[haflc]

Re: HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/

This thread: viewtopic.php?t=145324

I think it will help clarify what has been indicated thus far re. ASET picture interpretation. Don't want to type it all out again

ETA: The aset/is above look nice

Thanks for the Link.
Every little bit of info helps.

I guess am like some on this site, a bit OCD (obsessive compulsive) about getting the perfect stone (within budget), maybe I'm looking at all the little details which may not really matter in the real world.
It may be all just technical nuances.

But then again, if I'm planning on paying a premium for a H&A I guess I should get all the information i can that will provide the best return.

Thanks

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Re: HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/

This thread: viewtopic.php?t=145324

I think it will help clarify what has been indicated thus far re. ASET picture interpretation. Don't want to type it all out again

ETA: The aset/is above look nice

Thanks for the Link.
Every little bit of info helps.

I guess am like some on this site, a bit OCD (obsessive compulsive) about getting the perfect stone (within budget), maybe I'm looking at all the little details which may not really matter in the real world.
It may be all just technical nuances.

But then again, if I'm planning on paying a premium for a H&A I guess I should get all the information i can that will provide the best return.

Thanks

Halfic,

I applaud your efforts and many of us will continue to answer your questions as we love educating others but I fear we haven't gotten down to anything crucial in your purchase decision process or to the information you really need.

If you want the very best in cut down to perfect HA patterning, cut precision and the most ideal near tolk angles for a round brilliant than there are four PS vendors you should consider and their brands, Whiteflash ACA, BGD Signature, GOG Signature or Infinity (NiceIce and HPD sell them). Their brands are quite similar overall and it comes down to individual stones and their slight nuances which would have to be considered on a case by case basis.

If you are trying to squeeze higher color or size into a budget that may be too small to pay the premium for these branded lines than many have chosen a near HA like WF Expert Selection or the significantly cheaper unbranded diamonds at James Allen that if properly selected can be near HA and still have excellent performance.

I suggest you post your preferences (i.e. budget, color, clarity, size) and many in the forum will help you hunt for suitable candidates, this will be much quicker than trying to do it yourself.

For further education here are some excellent articles and videos I suggest viewing if you have the time and want to try to learn on your own:

https://www.pricescope.com/journal/video ... ts_diamond (naming the parts and facets of the round brilliant)
http://www.vimeo.com/4095697 (About lower half facets)
http://www.vimeo.com/8141283 (Varieties of Round Brilliants)
http://www.vimeo.com/12497725 (Understanding red reflectors and diamond cut quality)
https://www.pricescope.com/journal/heart ... nd_cutting (hearts and arrows patterning)
https://www.pricescope.com/journal/labor ... 0%99t_show (cut quality and grading)

If you get through all of that than http://www.agslab.com/spie/spie_lo_res.pdf (understanding ASET and AGS cut grading)

Good-luck,
CCL

 

[risingsun]

Re: HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/

My HOF specs for a 1.6234 ct G SI1 RB diamond...

Table: 56.2%
Depth: 61.7%
CA: 34.8
PA: 40.7
Star length: 55%
Lower girdle length: 77%

It hits the sweet spot on the HCA for AGS 0 and GIA Exc.

IS image showed perfect arrows. H&A viewer showed perfect hearts on one side and starburst on the other. If you are concerned, you can purchase your own IS and/or ASET and learn to read it. That's what I did. I have run the numbers and IS on numerous HOF stones, with excellent results. I worked with a jeweler, not a sales associate. I won't buy from someone who doesn't understand what they are selling. HTH.

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Re: HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/

My HOF specs for a 1.6234 ct G SI1 RB diamond...

Table: 56.2%
Depth: 61.7%
CA: 34.8
PA: 40.7
Star length: 55%
Lower girdle length: 77%

It hits the sweet spot on the HCA for AGS 0 and GIA Exc.

IS image showed perfect arrows. H&A viewer showed perfect hearts on one side and starburst on the other. If you are concerned, you can purchase your own IS and/or ASET and learn to read it. That's what I did. I have run the numbers and IS on numerous HOF stones, with excellent results. I worked with a jeweler, not a sales associate. I won't buy from someone who doesn't understand what they are selling. HTH.

The stats above are what I would expect from HOF and are right in the middle of the Tolkowksy Ideal Cut range. I would not expect overobstruction or excessive blue in properly photographed ASET from a HOF with those average crown and pavillion angles.

 

[risingsun]

Re: HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/

My HOF specs for a 1.6234 ct G SI1 RB diamond...

Table: 56.2%
Depth: 61.7%
CA: 34.8
PA: 40.7
Star length: 55%
Lower girdle length: 77%

It hits the sweet spot on the HCA for AGS 0 and GIA Exc.

IS image showed perfect arrows. H&A viewer showed perfect hearts on one side and starburst on the other. If you are concerned, you can purchase your own IS and/or ASET and learn to read it. That's what I did. I have run the numbers and IS on numerous HOF stones, with excellent results. I worked with a jeweler, not a sales associate. I won't buy from someone who doesn't understand what they are selling. HTH.

The stats above are what I would expect from HOF and are right in the middle of the Tolkowksy Ideal Cut range. I would not expect overobstruction or excessive blue in properly photographed ASET from a HOF with those average crown and pavillion angles.

Thanks for the feedback, CCL. I was just wondering if the OP may be overcomplicating his search. Any of the vendors you mentioned, as well as my own experience with HOF, should yield an outstanding stone. I agree with due diligence, but I think sometimes we can take it too far when dealing with the top branded diamonds and cutters.

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Re: HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/

My HOF specs for a 1.6234 ct G SI1 RB diamond...

Table: 56.2%
Depth: 61.7%
CA: 34.8
PA: 40.7
Star length: 55%
Lower girdle length: 77%

It hits the sweet spot on the HCA for AGS 0 and GIA Exc.

IS image showed perfect arrows. H&A viewer showed perfect hearts on one side and starburst on the other. If you are concerned, you can purchase your own IS and/or ASET and learn to read it. That's what I did. I have run the numbers and IS on numerous HOF stones, with excellent results. I worked with a jeweler, not a sales associate. I won't buy from someone who doesn't understand what they are selling. HTH.

The stats above are what I would expect from HOF and are right in the middle of the Tolkowksy Ideal Cut range. I would not expect overobstruction or excessive blue in properly photographed ASET from a HOF with those average crown and pavillion angles.

Thanks for the feedback, CCL. I was just wondering if the OP may be overcomplicating his search. Any of the vendors you mentioned, as well as my own experience with HOF, should yield an outstanding stone. I agree with due diligence, but I think sometimes we can take it too far when dealing with the top branded diamonds and cutters.

I agree with you emphatically!
The only reason why I can't put HOF amongst those lists of brands I reccomended is due to this old image which questions the cut consistancy of the brand the left is claimed to be an HOF. This image though should be taken with a grain of salt as it is clearly part of marketing material from eightstar.

If I was considering a HOF I'd want to see the IS, ASET and Hearts and Arrows images to confirm the expected high standard of cut precision and optical symmetry. This is already readily provided by online vendors of the brands I reccomended above.