HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/ASET

[risingsun]

Re: HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/

^^^Most of the B&M jewelers I have visited do not use either IS or ASET. That's why I bring my own. My IS of several HOF stones are as good as any other that I have seen online. I am not the usual B&M customer I told them from the beginning that I did not want to "romance the stone." What was especially helpful was that I had my WF ACA with me for comparison. I do agree that the different top brands may have a nuance of difference in their appeal. I think we are all quite fortunate to have found a source of information and tools so we can make informed decisions We are choosing among the best of the best

 

[haflc]

Re: HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/

Thanks for the feedback, CCL. I was just wondering if the OP may be overcomplicating his search. Any of the vendors you mentioned, as well as my own experience with HOF, should yield an outstanding stone. I agree with due diligence, but I think sometimes we can take it too far when dealing with the top branded diamonds and cutters.

just a part of my personality.
on things of importance, i tend to take a long time to get as much info as i can until i feel i have enough to make an informed decision. and i am thankful for sites like this which offer a forum to easily access this information and people willing to provide it.

i've noticed even on these vendors you mentioned there is some variance as to what they consider their "signature". and am sure that there will always be subtle differences when one views them in real life.

just doing my research...

 

[haflc]

Re: HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/

The only reason why I can't put HOF amongst those lists of brands I reccomended is due to this old image which questions the cut consistancy of the brand the left is claimed to be an HOF. This image though should be taken with a grain of salt as it is clearly part of marketing material from eightstar.

If I was considering a HOF I'd want to see the IS, ASET and Hearts and Arrows images to confirm the expected high standard of cut precision and optical symmetry. This is already readily provided by online vendors of the brands I reccomended above.

Yes, 8star does claim a higher level of cut, and i believe they are technically the only vender that was an legit derivative of the "original Hearts and Arrows" brand. They claim to only have a few select cutters and they are in training for much longer then the rest of the H&A cutter.
But their prices are much higher and retailers are hard to come by.

 

[haflc]

Re: HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/

Halfic,

I applaud your efforts and many of us will continue to answer your questions as we love educating others but I fear we haven't gotten down to anything crucial in your purchase decision process or to the information you really need.

If you want the very best in cut down to perfect HA patterning, cut precision and the most ideal near tolk angles for a round brilliant than there are four PS vendors you should consider and their brands, Whiteflash ACA, BGD Signature, GOG Signature or Infinity (NiceIce and HPD sell them). Their brands are quite similar overall and it comes down to individual stones and their slight nuances which would have to be considered on a case by case basis.

If you are trying to squeeze higher color or size into a budget that may be too small to pay the premium for these branded lines than many have chosen a near HA like WF Expert Selection or the significantly cheaper unbranded diamonds at James Allen that if properly selected can be near HA and still have excellent performance.

I suggest you post your preferences (i.e. budget, color, clarity, size) and many in the forum will help you hunt for suitable candidates, this will be much quicker than trying to do it yourself.

For further education here are some excellent articles and videos I suggest viewing if you have the time and want to try to learn on your own:

https://www.pricescope.com/journal/video ... ts_diamond (naming the parts and facets of the round brilliant)
http://www.vimeo.com/4095697 (About lower half facets)
http://www.vimeo.com/8141283 (Varieties of Round Brilliants)
http://www.vimeo.com/12497725 (Understanding red reflectors and diamond cut quality)
https://www.pricescope.com/journal/heart ... nd_cutting (hearts and arrows patterning)
https://www.pricescope.com/journal/labor ... 0%99t_show (cut quality and grading)

If you get through all of that than http://www.agslab.com/spie/spie_lo_res.pdf (understanding ASET and AGS cut grading)

Good-luck,
CCL

thank you for the info.
i've already been to a few of the links you provided. the videos are definitely informative.
i'll continue to ask questions as they arise.

 

[haflc]

Re: HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/

as you have show not all H&A are cut to the same quality.
now how does that translate into what one perceives in the real world, maybe not much.
but if one is paying a premium one should be getting the best stone possible for that price.

i realize that these variations may be ever so slight, and it has been mentioned that if it's H&A it should a good stone.
i may not realize the differences yet, but one day i will and i don't what to regret my purchase.
(before not to long ago i thought all diamonds shined and sparkled the same... until i did some research and saw what shine and sparkle really was)

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Re: HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/

The only reason why I can't put HOF amongst those lists of brands I reccomended is due to this old image which questions the cut consistancy of the brand the left is claimed to be an HOF. This image though should be taken with a grain of salt as it is clearly part of marketing material from eightstar.

If I was considering a HOF I'd want to see the IS, ASET and Hearts and Arrows images to confirm the expected high standard of cut precision and optical symmetry. This is already readily provided by online vendors of the brands I reccomended above.

Yes, 8star does claim a higher level of cut, and i believe they are technically the only vender that was an legit derivative of the "original Hearts and Arrows" brand. They claim to only have a few select cutters and they are in training for much longer then the rest of the H&A cutter.
But their prices are much higher and retailers are hard to come by.

I did my own investigation of eighstar just a little while ago. In their round brilliants they have chosen to paint the crown in such a way that the entire Idealscope image is red, whereas most other "superideal" HA vendors use a classic girdle without such variation where there are some small areas of leakage along the edges of the stone. Despite this the uneven painted girdle in eighstar stones results in the stone not receiveing a GIA excellent for symmetry or cut and this has caused them to be disfavoured by many PS vendors here.

Combine this with the premium on their stones over other "superideal" makes and I find it difficult to reccomend them. Some would argue that slight painting of the crown is a detriment not a positive to appearance even in the precise manner conducted by eightstar.This argument can be observed in the Red Reflectors video I listed above.

In my opinion the nuances between "superideal" brands are quite suttle something that may appear significant from 10-40X magnified images may not be observable under real life conditions. After the appropriate CA/PA combinations are chosen(present in all brands suggested in this thread) I find the relative lengths of the lower halves to have the greatest impact on appearance.

Eighstar along with the other brands listed above are all beautiful diamonds, the best available anywhere. I too would tend to let price and policies (like buyback and upgrade) dictate the buying decision.

 

[risingsun]

Re: HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/

Thanks for the feedback, CCL. I was just wondering if the OP may be overcomplicating his search. Any of the vendors you mentioned, as well as my own experience with HOF, should yield an outstanding stone. I agree with due diligence, but I think sometimes we can take it too far when dealing with the top branded diamonds and cutters.

just a part of my personality.
on things of importance, i tend to take a long time to get as much info as i can until i feel i have enough to make an informed decision. and i am thankful for sites like this which offer a forum to easily access this information and people willing to provide it.

i've noticed even on these vendors you mentioned there is some variance as to what they consider their "signature". and am sure that there will always be subtle differences when one views them in real life.

just doing my research...

I can understand that you want to do your research. I did, too. I think we can become mired in details that we will never see in the performance of the diamond, when we are dealing with this level of cutting. I hope that you find a gorgeous stone

 

[risingsun]

Re: HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/

CCL~are 8* even considered to be H&A patterned stones? I don't recall seeing the hearts, but perhaps it's something I missed.

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Re: HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/

CCL~are 8* even considered to be H&A patterned stones? I don't recall seeing the hearts, but perhaps it's something I missed.

You are right they claim ideal symmetry but don't provide hearts or arrows images to prove it.

 

[WinkHPD]

Re: HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/

AGS is cg image of a combination of several viewing angles

Yssie,

I would like to clarify your comment a little.

The AGS image on the Platinum report is a computer generated image, but it is the image of that stone from exactly 90 degrees (face up).

When they are doing their research they may take a reading every degree from 0 through 35 degrees from the perpendicular. They have found that when they were finished with the research that in the round if they take a ray tracing at the perpendicular (90 degrees from the table) and another at 15 degrees from the perpendicular they will get readings that are very very close to what they would get doing all the readings, and at a fraction of the time it takes to ray trace 40,000 rays in one degree increments.

So yes, they do actually take readings from more than one angle, but the picture that they print is in fact a static rendering as the stone would look in the ASET at exactly face up.

I know that John Pollard has some videos that show the rotation of the stone through many degrees of tilt. Perhaps he will post them for us here, and as you will see, a composite photo would not look at all like the one on the report.

I had the pleasure of speaking with Peter Yantzer about this as I thought that they took more angles into consideration. He was happy to share with us how they do it now and why, and it made my day just to get to speak with him.

Wink

 

[yssie]

Re: HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/

Thanks for that info wink!

 

[haflc]

Re: HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/

CCL~are 8* even considered to be H&A patterned stones? I don't recall seeing the hearts, but perhaps it's something I missed.

You are right they claim ideal symmetry but don't provide hearts or arrows images to prove it.

I do believe that the original Japanese developer of the firescope, Mr. Yasuhito Shigetomi, is directly link to the origins of this company. and since hearts and arrows are a derivative of their idea one can conclude they are by nature Hearts and Arrows.
http://www.eightstar.com/welcome/japane ... nings.html

"Earliest Super Ideal cut brands such as Eightstar and Apollon 8 surfaced in the mid-80s. Around this time, legend has it, quite by accident someone discovered that when one of these diamonds was viewed upside down in the Firescope, one could see a visible pattern eight symmetrical “hearts” through the pavilion of the stone.
This was the birth of a totally new concept in diamonds that would become known as Hearts and Arrows. Kinsaku Yamashita, an associate of Shigetomi, coined the name and trade marked it in 1988."
http://www.heartsandarrows.com/history- ... aries.aspx

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Re: HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/

CCL~are 8* even considered to be H&A patterned stones? I don't recall seeing the hearts, but perhaps it's something I missed.

You are right they claim ideal symmetry but don't provide hearts or arrows images to prove it.

I do believe that the original Japanese developer of the firescope, Mr. Yasuhito Shigetomi, is directly link to the origins of this company. and since hearts and arrows are a derivative of their idea one can conclude they are by nature Hearts and Arrows.
http://www.eightstar.com/welcome/japane ... nings.html

"Earliest Super Ideal cut brands such as Eightstar and Apollon 8 surfaced in the mid-80s. Around this time, legend has it, quite by accident someone discovered that when one of these diamonds was viewed upside down in the Firescope, one could see a visible pattern eight symmetrical “hearts” through the pavilion of the stone.
This was the birth of a totally new concept in diamonds that would become known as Hearts and Arrows. Kinsaku Yamashita, an associate of Shigetomi, coined the name and trade marked it in 1988."
http://www.heartsandarrows.com/history- ... aries.aspx

A firescope is similar to an Idealscope and is not sufficient to confirm heart and arrows optical symmetry. The standard as judged by a Firescope is not as high as that seen from both crown and pavillion view in a hearts and arrows viewer.

 

[haflc]

Re: HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/

I posted this in another tread, but thought it was relevant here also.

So I had a chance to compare a Branded Signature H&A stone from one of the PS venders you mentioned to a HoF stone.

I went into a HoF store yesterday. First they showed me 2 of their stones, they were nice, H&A under the Firescope, good fire and sparkle. Then I pulled out my stone thinking, "you think your stone is good and worth the premium price you are charging, well look at this". They were surprise it was too a H&A.

BUT..., the real difference came from real life viewing.
Theirs, the HoF, actually had more Fire and Scintillation..., I tried to my best to make them look equal, but the HoF stone actually performed a bit better.

Although I went in thinking that all H&A would be equal and I was only obsessing with the technical nuances of a good stone, I was a bit disappointed.

The hard thing is there does seem to be a small but noticeable variance in even the best cut stone with good proportions and angle with a good HCA. So unless one is able to view them directly and compare, it is not too easy buying something that one will feel completely satisfied with. True peace of mind that one has actually gotten the best stone for the price.

I wish I could actually look at all the diamond I am considering and compare...

 

[haflc]

Re: HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/

CCL~are 8* even considered to be H&A patterned stones? I don't recall seeing the hearts, but perhaps it's something I missed.

You are right they claim ideal symmetry but don't provide hearts or arrows images to prove it.

I do believe that the original Japanese developer of the firescope, Mr. Yasuhito Shigetomi, is directly link to the origins of this company. and since hearts and arrows are a derivative of their idea one can conclude they are by nature Hearts and Arrows.
http://www.eightstar.com/welcome/japane ... nings.html

"Earliest Super Ideal cut brands such as Eightstar and Apollon 8 surfaced in the mid-80s. Around this time, legend has it, quite by accident someone discovered that when one of these diamonds was viewed upside down in the Firescope, one could see a visible pattern eight symmetrical “hearts” through the pavilion of the stone.
This was the birth of a totally new concept in diamonds that would become known as Hearts and Arrows. Kinsaku Yamashita, an associate of Shigetomi, coined the name and trade marked it in 1988."
http://www.heartsandarrows.com/history- ... aries.aspx

A firescope is similar to an Idealscope and is not sufficient to confirm heart and arrows optical symmetry. The standard as judged by a Firescope is not as high as that seen from both crown and pavillion view in a hearts and arrows viewer.

Here is a continuation of the quote...

"...This was the birth of a totally new concept in diamonds that would become known as Hearts and Arrows. Yamashita, an associate of Shigetomi, coined the name and trade marked it in 1988. He also is credited with development of the Hearts & Arrows viewer, for which he received a patent in 1990. The Hearts and Arrows Viewer though a reflector device like Firescope, this instrument allows the viewer to analyze the physical symmetry, contrast and alignment of facets in both the pavilion and crown of a diamond, by directing light at set angles to catch and reflect light back from specific facets and angles in the diamond."

Here are the links again, don't think they were viewable before.
http://www.heartsandarrows.com/
http://www.eightstar.com/welcome/home.html

 

[WinkHPD]

Re: HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/

Thanks for that info wink!

You are most welcome. Your comment caused me to think to call my friend Peter who I wanted to say hello to anyway. Turns out he has a new grand child and has been playing some golf.

Then I got to learn some new things when I talked to him about this image. Sort of made my whole day better, talking to a friend and learning something all at the same time...

Wink

 

[WinkHPD]

Re: HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/

I posted this in another tread, but thought it was relevant here also.

So I had a chance to compare a Branded Signature H&A stone from one of the PS venders you mentioned to a HoF stone.

I went into a HoF store yesterday. First they showed me 2 of their stones, they were nice, H&A under the Firescope, good fire and sparkle. Then I pulled out my stone thinking, "you think your stone is good and worth the premium price you are charging, well look at this". They were surprise it was too a H&A.

BUT..., the real difference came from real life viewing.
Theirs, the HoF, actually had more Fire and Scintillation..., I tried to my best to make them look equal, but the HoF stone actually performed a bit better.

Although I went in thinking that all H&A would be equal and I was only obsessing with the technical nuances of a good stone, I was a bit disappointed.

The hard thing is there does seem to be a small but noticeable variance in even the best cut stone with good proportions and angle with a good HCA. So unless one is able to view them directly and compare, it is not too easy buying something that one will feel completely satisfied with. True peace of mind that one has actually gotten the best stone for the price.

I wish I could actually look at all the diamond I am considering and compare...

Interesting comment. I would have thought that you would have been ecstatic to learn that all this learning you have been doing actually has value. As with all grades, there are the stones at the top of the grade, the middle of the grade and the bottom (whew, I just made it) of the grade.

The grade will NOT reveal to you which stone is which, you must ascertain that by yourself. When you focus only on the grade and the price, then unless you have a happy accident, you will most likely be getting those stones that are at the bottom of the grade for that price. If you focus on the beauty of the diamond and maintain some flexibility in price, you will find diamonds that are equally as well cut at the HoF and some few that are even better.

BUT, you MUST look at the stones either one at a time or together to know which looks best to you. If you are fortunate enough to live close to a Pricescope appraiser, you can most likely have one or more stones shipped to that appraiser for you to look at simultaneously. That is really the best way to see which diamond you like best. You spend a little extra in postage and insurance, but you get to seriously look and see just what that diamond looks like.

The paper is a great start, but the truth proof of the pudding is in the looking.

I wish you success and a happy search. You have studied hard and now get to go take the final exam, for which you are much more prepared than the vast majority of your fellow searchers.

Wink

 

[risingsun]

Re: HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/

CCL~are 8* even considered to be H&A patterned stones? I don't recall seeing the hearts, but perhaps it's something I missed.

You are right they claim ideal symmetry but don't provide hearts or arrows images to prove it.

I do believe that the original Japanese developer of the firescope, Mr. Yasuhito Shigetomi, is directly link to the origins of this company. and since hearts and arrows are a derivative of their idea one can conclude they are by nature Hearts and Arrows.
http://www.eightstar.com/welcome/japane ... nings.html

"Earliest Super Ideal cut brands such as Eightstar and Apollon 8 surfaced in the mid-80s. Around this time, legend has it, quite by accident someone discovered that when one of these diamonds was viewed upside down in the Firescope, one could see a visible pattern eight symmetrical “hearts” through the pavilion of the stone.
This was the birth of a totally new concept in diamonds that would become known as Hearts and Arrows. Kinsaku Yamashita, an associate of Shigetomi, coined the name and trade marked it in 1988."
http://www.heartsandarrows.com/history- ... aries.aspx

A firescope is similar to an Idealscope and is not sufficient to confirm heart and arrows optical symmetry. The standard as judged by a Firescope is not as high as that seen from both crown and pavillion view in a hearts and arrows viewer.

Here is a continuation of the quote...

"...This was the birth of a totally new concept in diamonds that would become known as Hearts and Arrows. Yamashita, an associate of Shigetomi, coined the name and trade marked it in 1988. He also is credited with development of the Hearts & Arrows viewer, for which he received a patent in 1990. The Hearts and Arrows Viewer though a reflector device like Firescope, this instrument allows the viewer to analyze the physical symmetry, contrast and alignment of facets in both the pavilion and crown of a diamond, by directing light at set angles to catch and reflect light back from specific facets and angles in the diamond."

Here are the links again, don't think they were viewable before.
http://www.heartsandarrows.com/
http://www.eightstar.com/welcome/home.html

Thank you for the information and the links. This thread has been most interesting and informative to me. You did, indeed, do your research, and I hope you will come back with photos of your diamond

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Re: HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/

CCL~are 8* even considered to be H&A patterned stones? I don't recall seeing the hearts, but perhaps it's something I missed.

You are right they claim ideal symmetry but don't provide hearts or arrows images to prove it.

I do believe that the original Japanese developer of the firescope, Mr. Yasuhito Shigetomi, is directly link to the origins of this company. and since hearts and arrows are a derivative of their idea one can conclude they are by nature Hearts and Arrows.
http://www.eightstar.com/welcome/japane ... nings.html

"Earliest Super Ideal cut brands such as Eightstar and Apollon 8 surfaced in the mid-80s. Around this time, legend has it, quite by accident someone discovered that when one of these diamonds was viewed upside down in the Firescope, one could see a visible pattern eight symmetrical “hearts” through the pavilion of the stone.
This was the birth of a totally new concept in diamonds that would become known as Hearts and Arrows. Kinsaku Yamashita, an associate of Shigetomi, coined the name and trade marked it in 1988."
http://www.heartsandarrows.com/history- ... aries.aspx

A firescope is similar to an Idealscope and is not sufficient to confirm heart and arrows optical symmetry. The standard as judged by a Firescope is not as high as that seen from both crown and pavillion view in a hearts and arrows viewer.

Here is a continuation of the quote...

"...This was the birth of a totally new concept in diamonds that would become known as Hearts and Arrows. Yamashita, an associate of Shigetomi, coined the name and trade marked it in 1988. He also is credited with development of the Hearts & Arrows viewer, for which he received a patent in 1990. The Hearts and Arrows Viewer though a reflector device like Firescope, this instrument allows the viewer to analyze the physical symmetry, contrast and alignment of facets in both the pavilion and crown of a diamond, by directing light at set angles to catch and reflect light back from specific facets and angles in the diamond."

Here are the links again, don't think they were viewable before.
http://www.heartsandarrows.com/
http://www.eightstar.com/welcome/home.html

Thank you for the information and the links. This thread has been most interesting and informative to me. You did, indeed, do your research, and I hope you will come back with photos of your diamond

The eightstar was a lot more popular and a much bigger outfit several years ago when they were one of the few choices for top quality round brilliants. This was well before I knew anything about diamonds or was involved with Pricescope, but I beleive many PS vendors carried their stones and now do not. Nowadays they are mostly a boutique outfit with a small annual production of mostly recuts. I had several conversations with Dana Von Sternberg of Eighstar about their cutting process and I have recently emailed him about seeing the hearts and arrows images if they had them available. I look forward to posting them if provided.

On PS I find we are really tough on our vendors and require them to prove comprehensively the claims they make. To satisfy the strict term hearts and arrows we like to see the corresponding images from crown and pavilion. The resolution on a firecope/idealscope is not sufficient nor can one see the pavillion view from a firescope so in the absence of this myself as well as others are cautious about this claim. Without these images any retailer can claim their stones are hearts and arrows (some even inscribe the term on a girdle) and it really holds little meaning.

 

[haflc]

Re: HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/

I posted this in another tread, but thought it was relevant here also.

So I had a chance to compare a Branded Signature H&A stone from one of the PS venders you mentioned to a HoF stone.

I went into a HoF store yesterday. First they showed me 2 of their stones, they were nice, H&A under the Firescope, good fire and sparkle. Then I pulled out my stone thinking, "you think your stone is good and worth the premium price you are charging, well look at this". They were surprise it was too a H&A.

BUT..., the real difference came from real life viewing.
Theirs, the HoF, actually had more Fire and Scintillation..., I tried to my best to make them look equal, but the HoF stone actually performed a bit better.

Although I went in thinking that all H&A would be equal and I was only obsessing with the technical nuances of a good stone, I was a bit disappointed.

The hard thing is there does seem to be a small but noticeable variance in even the best cut stone with good proportions and angle with a good HCA. So unless one is able to view them directly and compare, it is not too easy buying something that one will feel completely satisfied with. True peace of mind that one has actually gotten the best stone for the price.

I wish I could actually look at all the diamond I am considering and compare...

Interesting comment. I would have thought that you would have been ecstatic to learn that all this learning you have been doing actually has value. As with all grades, there are the stones at the top of the grade, the middle of the grade and the bottom (whew, I just made it) of the grade.

The grade will NOT reveal to you which stone is which, you must ascertain that by yourself. When you focus only on the grade and the price, then unless you have a happy accident, you will most likely be getting those stones that are at the bottom of the grade for that price. If you focus on the beauty of the diamond and maintain some flexibility in price, you will find diamonds that are equally as well cut at the HoF and some few that are even better.

BUT, you MUST look at the stones either one at a time or together to know which looks best to you. If you are fortunate enough to live close to a Pricescope appraiser, you can most likely have one or more stones shipped to that appraiser for you to look at simultaneously. That is really the best way to see which diamond you like best. You spend a little extra in postage and insurance, but you get to seriously look and see just what that diamond looks like.

The paper is a great start, but the truth proof of the pudding is in the looking.

I wish you success and a happy search. You have studied hard and now get to go take the final exam, for which you are much more prepared than the vast majority of your fellow searchers.

Wink

I will definitely continue to try and understand what makes a perfect diamond what it is (accounting for personal preferences).
I had thought I had enough information to do that. I've found out that trying to find a diamond by numbers may not be enough, real life comparison definitely needs to play a large role.

Thank you.

 

[risingsun]

Re: HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/

...The eightstar was a lot more popular and a much bigger outfit several years ago when they were one of the few choices for top quality round brilliants. This was well before I knew anything about diamonds or was involved with Pricescope, but I beleive many PS vendors carried their stones and now do not. Nowadays they are mostly a boutique outfit with a small annual production of mostly recuts. I had several conversations with Dana Von Sternberg of Eighstar about their cutting process and I have recently emailed him about seeing the hearts and arrows images if they had them available. I look forward to posting them if provided.

On PS I find we are really tough on our vendors and require them to prove comprehensively the claims they make. To satisfy the strict term hearts and arrows we like to see the corresponding images from crown and pavilion. The resolution on a firecope/idealscope is not sufficient nor can one see the pavillion view from a firescope so in the absence of this myself as well as others are cautious about this claim. Without these images any retailer can claim their stones are hearts and arrows (some even inscribe the term on a girdle) and it really holds little meaning.

When I am shopping in a B&M, I put the stone through the same tests as when shopping online. If they want my business, they need to accept the way I make my choices. I bought a HOF pendant with a larger diamond surrounded my smaller stones. Kind of a cross between a cluster and a halo. It was already mounted, but through the H&A viewer, I could observe all of the perfect arrows, even in the smallest stones. I wish I had taken a photo. I agree that an IS is used for an entirely different purpose.

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Re: HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/

...The eightstar was a lot more popular and a much bigger outfit several years ago when they were one of the few choices for top quality round brilliants. This was well before I knew anything about diamonds or was involved with Pricescope, but I beleive many PS vendors carried their stones and now do not. Nowadays they are mostly a boutique outfit with a small annual production of mostly recuts. I had several conversations with Dana Von Sternberg of Eighstar about their cutting process and I have recently emailed him about seeing the hearts and arrows images if they had them available. I look forward to posting them if provided.

From Eighstar
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello XXXX,

The only images we have are of the FireScope variety.

As a Hearts & Arrows viewer only highlights the 8 main facets of the stone (unlike the FireScope which allows you to see the interactions between all facets), we've never felt it necessary to photograph our stones in a "Hearts & Arrows" environment.

Cheers,

XXXX
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[haflc]

Re: HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/

...The eightstar was a lot more popular and a much bigger outfit several years ago when they were one of the few choices for top quality round brilliants. This was well before I knew anything about diamonds or was involved with Pricescope, but I beleive many PS vendors carried their stones and now do not. Nowadays they are mostly a boutique outfit with a small annual production of mostly recuts. I had several conversations with Dana Von Sternberg of Eighstar about their cutting process and I have recently emailed him about seeing the hearts and arrows images if they had them available. I look forward to posting them if provided.

From Eighstar
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Hello XXXX,

The only images we have are of the FireScope variety.

As a Hearts & Arrows viewer only highlights the 8 main facets of the stone (unlike the FireScope which allows you to see the interactions between all facets), we've never felt it necessary to photograph our stones in a "Hearts & Arrows" environment.

Cheers,

XXXX
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That's interesting that they would not share those images.
I wonder why one cannot just use the Firescope to view the pavilion side to get the hearts.

Does anyone have an 8Star who can verify if there are indeed true hearts on the pavilion side?

 

[John P]

Re: HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/

That's interesting that they would not share those images.
I wonder why one cannot just use the Firescope to view the pavilion side to get the hearts.

First, they are completely different devices. Second, the goal of Eightstar was never hearts (Eightstar came before 'hearts').

1. The H&A viewer uses a single color in the hemisphere and a white disc or raised eyepiece at highest angles for contrast. While a H&A viewer shows crisp details of cutting precision (how the facet reflections overlap in 3D) it gives little information about light return and no information on leakage. It's a terrific tool for those who want to assess the fine tuning of 3D cut precision after one assesses light return/performance with a different appropriate tool.

The Firescope - like Ideal-Scope which came years later - uses backlighting underneath the diamond to reveal where the facets are acting as windows (leakage) rather than mirrors. Red in the hemisphere codes light entering the crown and returning to the viewer's eye. Black is used at highest angles to show the pattern of obstruction/contrast.

In the 70s and early 80s the Okuda microscope and Zeiss/Nikon/Rubin & Sons proportion loupes were precursors to the Firescope, which was the backbone upon which Eightstar was founded. Diamond cutting tools and measuring devices were far removed from what we enjoy today - there was no such thing as a H&A viewer and the concept of 3D cut precision, while imagined, was as distant as a Mars landing. Remember that diamonds are the hardest substance in the natural world. Many factories today don't get exactly what they plan from diamonds, and today's equipment is more advanced than it was in the 1980s.

The goal of the Eightstar company was tied to the Firescope image. Their vision was to create a diamond that showed a perfect eight-pointed star floating in a sea of red. Diamond cutters of the time were not familiar with instruments like the Firescope and it took herculean efforts to determine how to produce a diamond with all-red only broken by the eight-sided star; that star being the overlapping reflections of the pavilion mains when cut with top 3D precision, of course. The largest trouble, aside from producing any diamond with 3D cut precision, was eliminating girdle and meet-point leakage associated with the upper break facets. As it worked out, they needed to be at angles far closer to each other than anything conventional (we now know this as 'painting') in order to eliminate what we see as contrast leakage with many other well-cut diamonds in performance reflectors. Eightstar did this years before there were common terms for it.

The Eightstar Diamond was the first true "Superideal." The passion of those dedicated principals, beginning with Takanori Tamura, for producing the Firescope and pioneering 3D cut precision against a tide of resistance deserves respect and acknowledgment. Regardless of whether you like "superideals," Hearts & Arrows or Ducks & Bunnies or whatever, Tamura was a visionary who was passionately committed to cut as the most important and significant aspect of finished diamond beauty.

Does anyone have an 8Star who can verify if there are indeed true hearts on the pavilion side?

Hearts and ASET below (no backlighting in this ASET setup).

As I mentioned, hearts were never a goal for Eightstar and the "H&A" concept came after their diamond... To acquire the eight-pointed-star they like, Eightstar diamonds are typically cut with lower halves in the low to mid 70% range. This produces a pavilion footprint (seen below) in a H&A viewer which does not result in the "traditional" hearts pattern, acquired by cutting lower halves approximately 76-82%

The ASET, which adds an additional color (green) to identify light coming from low angles, shows the difference between Eightstar's upper break facet formula and that of others. It's noteworthy to remember that Eightstar was doing all of this - cutting for 3D precision and adjusting upper breaks to acquire their desired formula - a decade before consumers knew about ideal-scope, a decade before AGS was even doing proportions-based grading, two-decades before the AGS reflector-based metric (ASET) and two decades before GIA introduced or taught assessment of the brillianteering variations Eightstar adapted to their particular purpose.

 

[risingsun]

Re: HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/

Haflc~I hope you can clarify something for me. In your original post, you said that HOF would not show you an ASET of a diamond. Later in this thread, you said that you saw an ASET on the grading report. Before I drive my jeweler to despair, was the grading report the Platinum Performance Quality Document with the image of the ASET on the bottom. I would appreciate a clear answer on this. I am not asking if they showed you an ASET image in the shop, I would like to know about the grading report. Thanks

 

[haflc]

Re: HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/

Haflc~I hope you can clarify something for me. In your original post, you said that HOF would not show you an ASET of a diamond. Later in this thread, you said that you saw an ASET on the grading report. Before I drive my jeweler to despair, was the grading report the Platinum Performance Quality Document with the image of the ASET on the bottom. I would appreciate a clear answer on this. I am not asking if they showed you an ASET image in the shop, I would like to know about the grading report. Thanks

Sorry for the confusion.

The ASET image I had mentioned in my post was for another stone I was referring to.

When i spoke with the first HoF retailer, she stated that they did not need to provide a Platinum report with ASET because all their stones were cut to the exact same precision and they were all identical. (I don't know if she was just saying that because she didn't have any stones with this report or HoF doesn't provide this.)

The other two stores I visited all had to old diamond report, but as Stone-Cold had mentioned this could have been because they only had old stones graded before the new system come about.

It's interesting to see how long retailers hold onto some of these stones and not sell them, a few reports were from 2007. One offered to sell me a HoF H VS2 1.26 stone for less then $7,000. I told him I am very color sensitive and I would like to stay in the colorless range E/F and he mumbled something about how with the new grading system it would be a very high premium for a stone like that and tried to really push the stone he had on hand.

Another vendor was retailing a HoF G VS2 1.24 for over $20,000, but as I was leaving she said when I come back she would offer me a discount. (How much of a discount! What's the mark up on these HoF diamonds?)

So, I have only been to stores that have the old report. But I cannot state for sure if the Platinum report is not available for HoF or they are just old diamonds that were graded a long ago.

If you have any further questions I'll try to answer them.

 

[risingsun]

Re: HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/

^^^There were a number of HOF vendors who were underperforming and HOF pulled their product out of these stores and placed them elsewhere. Some of these vendors tried to drop stones, before they had to return them. As with many of our top tier diamonds, less than 2000 stones per year are produced. That is not a lot. Thank you for answering my question. My jeweler is looking into it. There is a lot of information to take in and use effectively to make a diamond selection

 

[Dancing Fire]

Re: HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/

It's interesting to see how long retailers hold onto some of these stones and not sell them, a few reports were from 2007. One offered to sell me a HoF H VS2 1.26 stone for less then $7,000. I told him I am very color sensitive and I would like to stay in the colorless range E/F and he mumbled something about how with the new grading system it would be a very high premium for a stone like that and tried to really push the stone he had on hand.


sounds fair for a HoF stone if you can live with the H color.

 

[haflc]

Re: HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/

It's interesting to see how long retailers hold onto some of these stones and not sell them, a few reports were from 2007. One offered to sell me a HoF H VS2 1.26 stone for less then $7,000. I told him I am very color sensitive and I would like to stay in the colorless range E/F and he mumbled something about how with the new grading system it would be a very high premium for a stone like that and tried to really push the stone he had on hand.


sounds fair for a HoF stone if you can live with the H color.

I personally could not, but many others can.
The place I notice it the most is right under the girdle, or when viewing if from the side.

Here are an "H" and "I", but priced a bit higher.
1.22 ct H VS2,$ 8,484 http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamond ... 372495.htm
1.276 ct I VS2, $7,747 http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamond ... 372506.htm

But my other point was how could there be such a price difference.
The first vendor didn't even have VS2 only IS and they said they would have to special order. And E/F, IS was going for $20,000

Another vendor was retailing a HoF G VS2 1.24 for over $20,000, but as I was leaving she said when I come back she wouldoffer me a discount. (How much of a discount! What's the mark up on these HoF diamonds?)

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Re: HoF Image. Clustering? And No AGS DQD Platinum report w/

It's interesting to see how long retailers hold onto some of these stones and not sell them, a few reports were from 2007. One offered to sell me a HoF H VS2 1.26 stone for less then $7,000. I told him I am very color sensitive and I would like to stay in the colorless range E/F and he mumbled something about how with the new grading system it would be a very high premium for a stone like that and tried to really push the stone he had on hand.


sounds fair for a HoF stone if you can live with the H color.

I personally could not, but many others can.
The place I notice it the most is right under the girdle, or when viewing if from the side.

Here are an "H" and "I", but priced a bit higher.
1.22 ct H VS2,$ 8,484 http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamond ... 372495.htm
1.276 ct I VS2, $7,747 http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamond ... 372506.htm

But my other point was how could there be such a price difference.
The first vendor didn't even have VS2 only IS and they said they would have to special order. And E/F, IS was going for $20,000

Another vendor was retailing a HoF G VS2 1.24 for over $20,000, but as I was leaving she said when I come back she wouldoffer me a discount. (How much of a discount! What's the mark up on these HoF diamonds?)

I was under the impression HOF diamonds are very overpriced compared to the branded lines from PS vendors. That is why many took an interest in defining what qualities made the HOF more appealing to you. I'm still interested in how Brian interprets your observations and preferences and where you go from here.

Regards,
CCL