How can you tell if a diamond is "watery"

[meg_]

I've seen this term floating around, but I'm not 100% sure I can identify a watery diamond unless I had another diamond to compare it to. Are there tell tale signs?

I've watched the GOG videos and the difference seems fairly obvious when the watery diamond is sitting in the whitebox alongside a star performer. However, I have a sparkly albeit very shallow diamond sitting alone in a jewel box. How do I know if it has the appropriate amount of fire or scintillation?

A few setting vendors have mentioned that it "should be watery" based on the depth. I don't think it is, I actually think it's bright and lively. However, when I look at the (ahem, craptastic iphone) photos of it sitting in semi mounts, I can see the base of the prongs in a few of the images - is that normal? Is that something that wouldn't be visible when the stone is actually set properly into the setting?

I'm so sorry for all the posts with questions. Thank you all for being so wonderfully helpful.

 

[JulieN]

can you post those craptastic phone photos?

 

[diamonds-are-friends]

watery = slushy = crushed ice?

 

[chrono]

I hear the term "watery" in the coloured stone world but not diamonds. Do you mean that it is glassy or that it is too see-through instead of reflecting light (the pavilion facets) back to the eye?

 

[Niel]

Hmm i read it and thought "greasy"

 

[tyty333]

I havent heard that term with diamonds but I would think its when you cant really make out the faceting pattern. They are not
clear and crisp like they should be. Like, possibly when the stone is too deep.

Or perhaps when the stone is too shallow and you can see through it to whats under but it is kind of blurry (watery?)

 

[bunnycat]

I hear the term "watery" in the coloured stone world but not diamonds. Do you mean that it is glassy or that it is too see-through instead of reflecting light (the pavilion facets) back to the eye?

That's what I would think of with the term.

 

[Niel]

I hear the term "watery" in the coloured stone world but not diamonds. Do you mean that it is glassy or that it is too see-through instead of reflecting light (the pavilion facets) back to the eye?

That's what I would think of with the term.

Im mad because i cant thi k of the term, but i think of also that effect some old cut stones have where the facets look kInd of duplicated in the stone? Gah im so mad i dont know the term and my description is terrible! I think it starts with an m?

 

[chrono]

Kozibe?

 

[Niel]

Kozibe?

Boom! Yes! Youre the best chrono

my description was a hot mess but that i think could be deemed as "water" and i know meg had an old stone

 

[meg_]

I would guess that watery and glassy are interchangeable? The GOG video mentions both in a few clips - 17:57 ish and 19:32 and 24:45 to about 26:00 for his vintage example. https://www.pricescope.com/journal/cushion-cut-diamond-video-guide-good-old-gold

Here is a video of my stone. I'd say this is really true to life in spot light and direct sunlight. In diffused lighting it has very occasional flashes, but a fairly clear faceting pattern. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qse6xhshKE

The only time i can't see the facets clearly, is in still photographs. My only caveat is that I haven't tried to take any photos with my DSLR - only my phone.

 

[meg_]

can you post those craptastic phone photos?

Here is one. You can see the rose gold prongs (way too small for my stone) through the diamond if you look closely.

 

[JulieN]

Where Jon says "watery" he is talking about leakage. If you can see prongs, leakage may be the reason.

 

[Niel]

Im getting the feeling i get everytime you talk about this stone that its just not "the one"

 

[meg_]

Im getting the feeling i get everytime you talk about this stone that its just not "the one"

Adam at OWD is trying to source me a few more options. I'm worried that I want to love it more than I actually do. I think if I have options to compare it to, I'll feel better.

I'm learning that I may need to be an in store diamond shopper. I just need to touch, feel and compare.

 

[Niel]

Im getting the feeling i get everytime you talk about this stone that its just not "the one"

Adam at OWD is trying to source me a few more options. I'm worried that I want to love it more than I actually do. I think if I have options to compare it to, I'll feel better.

I'm learning that I may need to be an in store diamond shopper. I just need to touch, feel and compare.

Based off a few of your comments i think you are trying to love it a little more than you do, and id rather you admit it down and find something better than digure it out once your return period is gone, you know?

 

[JulieN]

Don't feel guilty. I don't think it is very attractive.

 

[ForteKitty]

I've seen some shallow old cuts that look watery. It happens when it's shallow and the facets kind of blend and melt into each other, and it is kind of see-thru but not really. Put a drop of water on your diamond's table, and you will see a similar effect. When you move it the edge of the drop will magnify the facets as you move it around, and you see that weird zooming watery look? That's the best way I can describe it. Haha, sorry if that makes no sense.

Kozibe is a totally different effect. Diamonds with strong kozibe usually have sharper faceting patterns.

 

[Christina...]

I've seen some shallow old cuts that look watery. It happens when it's shallow and the facets kind of blend and melt into each other, and it is kind of see-thru but not really. Put a drop of water on your diamond's table, and you will see a similar effect. When you move it the edge of the drop will magnify the facets as you move it around, and you see that weird zooming watery look? That's the best way I can describe it. Haha, sorry if that makes no sense.

Kozibe is a totally different effect. Diamonds with strong kozibe usually have sharper faceting patterns.

This is what I'm thinking too, and for me, the appeal of an old cut is the strong pattern faceting that immediately says..'antique'. I agree with the others that perhaps this isn't 'the one' for you. You shouldn't have to try so hard to love your stone, it happens or it doesn't kwim? I think it's a great idea to find a couple to compare side by side. It will help you determine what you like and don't like and make narrowing down options much easier for you.

 

[meg_]

Where Jon says "watery" he is talking about leakage. If you can see prongs, leakage may be the reason.

Did you watch the video I posted? It's much more attractive than in the photo.

But you are all right, I think I'm trying to convince myself to keep it because it's bigger than I'll likely get with another option.

Adam has been WONDERFUL to work with, and I can send the diamond back at any point. I just hope he can find me something within my budget.

 

[JulieN]

Yes... I watched the video. Maybe I should look at more of OWD's videos but my impression is it looks mushy and dark.

 

[ForteKitty]

Meg, I looked at the pictures posted in your other thread, and it looks like some of the "watery" elements you attribute to the diamond may be the bruted girdle reflection. When you look at it under a loupe, do the odd parts look kind of rough? The reason I ask is because I have a 1.39 oec pendant and the diamond is a little shallow, and I see a little of the watery look. When I look closely, some of it is facets blending into each other, but some of it is bruted girdle reflection. Mine looks fantastic on the neck, and is bright and sparkly, but I wouldn't be able to tolerate it on the hand.

edited for typo and additional stuff.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Meg, I looked at the pictures posted in your other thread, and it looks like some of the "watery" elements you attribute to the diamond may be the bruted girdle reflection. When you look at it under a loupe, do the odd parts look kind of rough? The reason I ask is because I have a 1.39 oec pendant and the diamond is a little shallow, and I see a little of the watery look. When I look closely, some of it is facets blending into each other, but some of it is bruted girdle reflection. Mine looks fantastic on the neck, and is bright and sparkly, but I wouldn't be able to tolerate it on the hand.

edited for typo and additional stuff.

I also have seen this effect, where the thick girdle reflects and it creates an indistinct appearance to the facet pattern under the table.

I also liked FK's description earlier of what the term "watery" means to her. For me, it means the same as FK and also in general means a lack of precision in the facet patterning. It does not affect brightness. It affects scintillation patterning. A stone can be very very bright but not show a dramatic pattern of off and on with the facets. A well cut diamond will be both bright and lively in the sense that it will have a dramatic and eye catching pattern of off and on in the facets. This latter quality creates sparkle, and life, and it is the aspect of diamond optics that can be affected by overly-shallow cuts.

Adam at OWD really loves shallow stones, or at least he loves to sell them from what I have seen on PS! Probably because they face up larger than deep counterparts, and maybe also because deeper old cuts are often being lucritively recut into antique style chunky cushions that command a higher price point because of their symmatry and precision of cut.

I can tell from what I have seen of your diamond that it is not terribly affected by shallowness. But, it still might be a little affected and I could only tell by seeing better photos or the stone in person. You don't seem to dance a jig about this diamond, and that is my benchmark for whether a stone should be kept or not

 

[TC1987]

I decided "watery", to me, is a diamond that lacks strong contrast patterns. Like, flowing water has flashed of brilliance, but there's no black and white contrasts in it. The first H&A diamond I bought, I always felt was somehow a little bland. The one that I upgraded to has strong contrast patterns, and I am much happier with it.

 

[JulieN]

It does seem like there is a girdle reflection in the video, perhaps what I thought was mush. Hard to say from the video, though.

 

[ariel144]

Sorry...posted this first on the wrong thread:

Kozibe effect is the reflection of the culet in the other facets of the stone and can be an indication of an excellent cut and produces fire:

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/modern-cushion-vs-antique-cushion.23890/page-2']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/modern-cushion-vs-antique-cushion.23890/page-2[/URL]

Here it is in a JA cushion that looks phenomenal with all those culet reflections.

http://www.jamesallen.com/#!/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/1.51-carat-H-color-VVS1-clarity-sku-191545



Many of GOG's AVR's and AVC's exhibit this. One of his "best" OEC's that he has seen has this Kozibe effect:

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/8140/

Somewhere he has a video on this warm OEC....here ya go...enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaD9l0ynDaY&list=UUEV7slr-i-VduBBnfv9MxhA&index=113&feature=plcp

 

[meg_]

Sorry...posted this first on the wrong thread:

Kozibe effect is the reflection of the culet in the other facets of the stone and can be an indication of an excellent cut and produces fire:

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/modern-cushion-vs-antique-cushion.23890/page-2']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/modern-cushion-vs-antique-cushion.23890/page-2[/URL]

Here it is in a JA cushion that looks phenomenal with all those culet reflections.

http://www.jamesallen.com/#!/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/1.51-carat-H-color-VVS1-clarity-sku-191545



Many of GOG's AVR's and AVC's exhibit this. One of his "best" OEC's that he has seen has this Kozibe effect:

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/8140/

Somewhere he has a video on this warm OEC....here ya go...enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaD9l0ynDaY&list=UUEV7slr-i-VduBBnfv9MxhA&index=113&feature=plcp

You always find great stones on JA.

 

[ariel144]

Looking at your K stone video again, at first i just thought the stone had the smaller facets but looking at it again it might have some leakage although it looks very bright. Usually if they are too shallow you can put newsprint behind it and you can see the letters through the stone. But maybe yours has a little "crushed ice"/watery appearing faceting.
If you don't love it, I would pass.

 

[ariel144]

Sorry...posted this first on the wrong thread:

Kozibe effect is the reflection of the culet in the other facets of the stone and can be an indication of an excellent cut and produces fire:

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/modern-cushion-vs-antique-cushion.23890/page-2']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/modern-cushion-vs-antique-cushion.23890/page-2[/URL]

Here it is in a JA cushion that looks phenomenal with all those culet reflections.

http://www.jamesallen.com/#!/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/1.51-carat-H-color-VVS1-clarity-sku-191545



Many of GOG's AVR's and AVC's exhibit this. One of his "best" OEC's that he has seen has this Kozibe effect:

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/8140/

Somewhere he has a video on this warm OEC....here ya go...enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaD9l0ynDaY&list=UUEV7slr-i-VduBBnfv9MxhA&index=113&feature=plcp

Someone already got this 2c J antique cut cushion...it was in your price range too

http://www.jamesallen.com/#!/loose-diamonds/cushion-cut/2.00-carat-J-color-VS2-clarity-sku-178711

You always find great stones on JA.

 

[meg_]

I had that one on hold for a while, but decided against it. The asymmetry bugged me.