How important is having parents who love each other?

[AmberWaves]

Growing up I had both parents in the home, but it wasn''t a happy home. It was obvious they had no affection for each other, and were just "doing the right thing" by staying together for the kids. It was a very volatile home with arguments and fighting, and constant tears. To combat this, I became the scapegoat, trying to detract their attention from each other to myself. My brother turned inward and became a bit of a hermit. They made it known to us that they were only together for us (Yes, it was terrible to say that to us), and that while they loved US, they didn''t love each other.

It stayed that way until I moved out at 21, when my mom finally left. Now there is no interaction between them, but at least the animosity is gone, which is a blessing. Still, I often wonder what kind of person I would be now, had I either had two parents who loved each other, or two parents who split up, saving us from the violence.

What are your opinions? Do you believe it''s better to stay together for the kids (in a very hateful home), or separate to save them from seeing how your relationship has changed? I know a lot of families aren''t as angry and bitter as mine, so I know there are definitely some amicable separations, but in my case, I truly don''t know what would have done more harm. Fighting is what I thought was normal, and every day I have to try to change that.

 

[Aloros]

I think it''s better to have two happy parents in two separate homes. No personal experience to draw from, but I can''t imagine the tenseness and the stress arising from a household where the parents are divided.

I grew up with two parents who love one another very much. I consider myself blessed in that respect.

 

[Independent Gal]

Statistically, the rank order of harm to kids is:

1) (Best) Loving parents, stable home
2) Parents who keep their difficulties to themselves, then very calmly and decently divorce, and then maintain separate, loving and stable homes for the kids.
3) Parents who are vicious to each other and stay together
4) Parents who continue to be vicious to each other after divorce

The research suggests that the important things are stability and love. But those can come after a divorce. If the parents are horrible to each other in front of the kids and mean to each other, that can be very damaging.

If it''s any comfort, I know someone whose parents were like this, and he is now an EXCELLENT parent to his kids because he knows what not to do.

 

[cara]

I think data shows that high-conflict marriages are bad for kids, and if divorce manages to lower the conflict level it is a benefit. For unhappy parents in low-conflict marriages, the data sometimes supports staying together for the sake of the kids, as divorce usually increases the conflict level and upsets the working order of the home. But but but.

Kids do pick up on things, and the relationships they see their parents in sets an example for them going forward. I think it is impossible to convey a healthy function relationship in an unhappy, loveless marriage even if there is no conflict. At some level, you must love and like the person you are living with even if the marriage is not passionate. And, if and when an unhappy marriage later falls apart after the kids are grown, the adult child will reinterpret their seemingly happy childhood in light of the later events.

My background is that my parents separated after almost 25 years. While I initially had perceived a happy childhood and happy marriage, it is clear in hindsight that my mother stayed for maybe 10 additional years for the sake of the kids and there were always cracks in their relationship that I was either blind to or thought were "normal". My mother left when my much younger brother was in high school, and he clearly suffered from the fallout (drugs, almost failed high school, did drop out of college, etc.) It is an interesting unknowable if things would have turned out differently for him if she had waited two more years. But it is also clear that, by the time my mother left, my parents relationship was dysfunctional and demonstrated contempt, disrespect, and other unhealthly components. And the divorce has certainly descended to viciousness, which has had an effect on me as a young adult. Perhaps, seeing that it has descended to viciousness, it is better that this happened later rather than earlier but it is still hard. It is always hard to watch your parents tear into each other.

Note to self: choose more mature parents next time.
Oh well, stuck with these ones for this lifetime...

 

[Tacori E-ring]

I was just talking to my friend about this. We learn how to have relationship from our parents. So I think it is critical to have loving parents. If not, I think it is much better to divorce and try to find happiness. That is the advice I would give my daughter if she was in an unhappy marriage.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

I do not think parents continuously fighting in front of the kids AND making it known that the kids are literally to blame for the fights (by the parents staying together for the kids) can possibly be healthy! In fact, that veers into the realm of mental abusiveness.

Amber - I''m sorry you had to endure that during your childhood.

 

[Sabine]

I think about this a lot. My parents did not have a happy marriage. My dad told me that he wanted a divorce 2 years before I graduated high school. But my parents decided to continue living in the same house because if they didn''t, neither could afford to keep the house or to get an apartment in the area where we lived, so I would have had to start in a new school (in a worse school too actually, and I was trying to get in to competitive colleges) for 2 years. My dad slept on the couch, and my parents basically didn''t speak to each other for 2 years. When they divorced my mom went through a really hard time where she had to hit rock bottom before she could start turning herself around. I''m actually kinda glad I was away at college when that happened. Those years weren''t easy, but I did appreciate that we all put up with a difficult situation so that I could have the best opportunities.

 

[zhuzhu]

Parents of DH divorced when he was 13. He was bitter about it because at that age he could not understand why it was necessary (one wanted divorced the other did not). Luckily both parents remarried later in happy marriages, and from what I can tell the divorce was handled maturely at the time also. Now he and his siblings all have two complete set of homes to visit/celebrate with over major holidays. Something that can be seen as a benefit over non-divorced parents I suppose.

 

[mimzy]

i''ve actually been thinking a lot about this too. FI''s parents are in a very unhappy marriage, and i mean very unhappy. they rarely speak to each other and haven''t shared a bedroom for 10 years or so. i don''t even know if there has been a holiday that both of them came to the dinner table for at the same time. i didn''t know FI then, but it sounds like there was a LOT of conflict when he was younger, but it''s been better since his dad went to anger counseling or something. anyways, it puts a tremendous amount of pressure on FI and his brother and sister (who are 28 and 21 respectively and still live at home, as does FI) to keep his mom and his dad happy, since they can''t rely on each other for that (or themselves....but that''s another issue). they are both very prideful, stubborn, immature people that make themselves professional victims and refuse to do anything to change for the better. I guess they stayed together for their kids....but i guess i''m not 100% sure if that was the only reason or not. I know that it affects my FI, but he doesn''t talk about it much. i think he is just used to it. as for negatively effecting him....i think the biggest way it has is that, even when he is unhappy, he doesn''t make changes to his life very much. I imagine that he would also stay in a relationship regardless of how miserable he, or the other person, was. it used to worry me, but not really anymore. he also used to be quick to raise his voice, which i didn''t like. other than that, i think that it has helped to make him the extremely patient, loving, forgiving person that he is because he knows firsthand what could happen if he doesn''t take care of his relationship.

i had a really hard time reconciling my own sensibilities to it because my parents divorced when i was young and are both in extremely happy marriages now. sure it sucked having divorced parents, but i can almost guarantee that my childhood was still happier than his.

 

[pennquaker09]

My parents divorced when I was around 12. They had a good marriage, but they kind of just grew apart and neither of them wanted to put in the work to keep the marriage. They''re like best friends now. My mom and her BF and my dad and my stepmom do things together all the time.

 

[AmberWaves]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I think that this parenting thing has started to come up more and more because we''re trying for a baby, and I have a conscious effort to NOT become my parents. I was a stressor pre-marriage as well, as I had the pessimistic view of assuming all relationships will end. I''d tell myself that my parents never started out hating each other, so what happened? What says WE won''t end up like them?

My parents have never apologized for the sights we saw as children. They''ve never really discussed it with us, aside from the typical fighting parents blaming each other for the disintegration of their relationship (they were never married). The odd thing is, until my brother moved out a year or two before I did, they slept in the same bed.

Odd, right? Anyway, this lack of an apology or even some kind of explanation (which pisses off DH to no end) relating to their fighting has caused me to doubt a lot. My mom prefers to act as though those 20-something years of discord never happened, I never stepped between them, my brother never cried... which makes me mad. If I''m this emotionally messed up, at least take some responsibility for it! My dad has conceded one thing: that he''s proud that my brother and I were able to "rise above" what we witnessed and actually find good, decent people to marry. Of course, my brother had to move all the way to Australia to find it.

 

[Miranda]

Date: 6/18/2008 4:07:49 PM
Author: AmberWaves
Thanks for the replies everyone. I think that this parenting thing has started to come up more and more because we''re trying for a baby, and I have a conscious effort to NOT become my parents. I was a stressor pre-marriage as well, as I had the pessimistic view of assuming all relationships will end. I''d tell myself that my parents never started out hating each other, so what happened? What says WE won''t end up like them?

My parents have never apologized for the sights we saw as children. They''ve never really discussed it with us, aside from the typical fighting parents blaming each other for the disintegration of their relationship (they were never married). The odd thing is, until my brother moved out a year or two before I did, they slept in the same bed.

Odd, right? Anyway, this lack of an apology or even some kind of explanation (which pisses off DH to no end) relating to their fighting has caused me to doubt a lot. My mom prefers to act as though those 20-something years of discord never happened, I never stepped between them, my brother never cried... which makes me mad. If I''m this emotionally messed up, at least take some responsibility for it! My dad has conceded one thing: that he''s proud that my brother and I were able to ''rise above'' what we witnessed and actually find good, decent people to marry. Of course, my brother had to move all the way to Australia to find it.

This part is what I believe to be key!!!

Both my DH and I came from parents with marriages similar to yours. His parents are just completely uninterested in each other and really seem to dislike each other. They haven''t slept in the same room for as long as I''ve known DH (18 years). They say really rude things and treat each other with general disrespect. His dad is demanding and, even though he is retired and she works, expects her to do all of the cooking, cleaning, grocery shopping, etc. His mom is out shopping all of the time as a way to be away. I guess their relationship works for them, but, it would NOT for me. They just don''t seem very happy. When they were young it sounds as though they were happy. When they had kids they never again went away for a weekend or dinner alone. It seems like they have just forgotten all of the reasons they fell in love. My parents on the other hand have a very love/hate relationship. And until recently both had substance abuse problems. They are now and always have been rocky to say the least. As a child I remember wishing they would just get a divorce. The neverending bickering or full blown fights (not physical) would drive me crazy. At other times, though, they are/were happy.

To answer your question, I think it is by far better to have parents divorced rather than unhappily (miserably) married. That said, it is still not ideal. The best case scenario is happily married parents and unfortunately, that takes a great deal of patience and sacrifice and did I mention patience.

Every single day you must make an effort to meet your spouses needs emotionally. Whatever they may be. DH and I didn''t have a really great marriage until we decided to use our parents'' marriages as examples. Not of what to do. But, of what not to do.

 

[neatfreak]

My opinion falls exactly in line with Indy's stats! That is what *I* would want for my children should my marriage not work out. I'd much prefer to have two happy stable loving homes than stay together and be miserable.

 

[FrekeChild]

What IndyGal said. My family lawyer dad says the exact same thing. (His firm deals a lot with custody cases, and he has ''What a Divorce is'' or something like that and other books for kids all over the office.)

 

[ephemery1]

Agree with the previous posts... I think two happy parents, regardless of whether they''re in a relationship with each other or with other people, is most important.

I was raised by parents with a happy, loving, stable marriage... and it had a HUGE impact on me. My parents always made it clear that they loved us kids wholly and unconditionally, but THEIR relationship came first... and I will never, ever forget that lesson. I know that without nurturing our own marriage first and foremost, DH and I are not going to be nearly as effective as parents OR as a couple... and it won''t be nearly as much fun, either!

 

[SarFarSuperstar]

My parents divorced when I was 6- I don''t remember them together really but I do remember them being generally unhappy while married. Their was a LOT of animosity between them, they used my sister and I as pawns in their divorce, both parents remarried and divorce their 2nd spouses. There was a lot of emotional abuse and a pretty violent atmosphere in my mom''s second marriage. We called Dad''s house with wife #2 the happy mafia- you have to act happy or they''ll kill you.

Dad is on wife #3 and she is fabulous and basically the reason my father and I have a relationship at all. Mom is alone and dating her second husband (whom she divorced...I know, it''s crazy).

For me, the turning point came when my dad apologized to me and let me tell him what my childhood was like and really listened. It didn''t happen until I was 22. My mother, on the other hand, has apologized my whole life and carries around debilitating guilt from her divorce, my childhood, and her own issues. I grew up with the mantra "people love you the best way they know how" and sometimes that''s just not what you need.

I had to finally understand that while I love my parents as people- they are not my parents. They are adults who care for me and love me and that I hang out with somtimes but I raised myself. I walked myself down the aisle when I got married because I thought that honor should be reserved for the person who taught me how to love and be loved and well....that would be me.

I worry a lot about how I will treat my children but I think I have learned from the bad examples my parents set for me. My marriage is very different from theirs and all I can do is recognize what I did not like about my childhood and try to be different.

 

[AmberWaves]

Thank you all for the great replies. I wish I could talk to my brother about it, but he''s got his family now, and I really think he''d rather just not talk about it.

 

[diamondfan]

I think it can be a lose lose situation. Friends I know whose parents had crap marriages and stayed for their kids wished their parents had NOT, as they knew the parents were miserable even if the parents thought they were hiding it well. They think their parents would have been better parents apart from eachother so they could at least be happy. Other people I know whose parents did split have this fantasy about "what if" if their parents had stayed. I think it is simplistic on one level to say you made your bed and lie in it, meaning you chose this person, said vows, made a family, now suck it up and deal. I used to feel if there is no cheating, no abuse, no gambling or drugs, one should stay for the sake of the kids. However, I sort of feel some ambivalence toward that now. Kids KNOW when parents are unhappy. They see it, sense it, feel it. And while most all kids would want their parents together, I am sure they also do not want it when clearly everyone is miserable. It is really a tough one. I know many marriages that are just so so, there is no infidelity or physical or mental abuse, but there is coldness and no joy, no affection. Look, hubby and I sometimes argue and bicker, but we are also loving and affectionate too. I think it helps kids to see their parents can disagree and still love one another, and not all arguments get resolved neatly. That is fine for kids to see. But vicious below the belt fighting, total coldness and lack of affection, that I think is not a good model for kids to base their future relationships on. If that is all you know and have seen, how do you know that you can and should have more in life? Of course divorcing and behaving terribly is not great either.

If you are married, and have a stable marriage, you can still fight. Fighting in and of itself is not the issue, as long as it is not all of the time. Just fight fair, with a mind toward resolution if possible and a strategy in case you cannot resolve it to the satisfaction of both people. Do not attack or be cruel, but try to stayed focused on the issue and not get personal. That way your kids see how to disagree in a healthy way.

 

[miraclesrule]

I don''t know...didn''t Dylan what''s his name??? Shooter at Columbine have two loving parents?
So did Jeffrey Dahmer, or however you spell that lunatics name....

I think you are going to be who you are going to be, despite or in spite, of your parents.

 

[diamondfan]

I think we need not to include people born with clear mental disease and defect. I think we are talking about most normal impressionable kids. And while you come into the world wired how you are wired, I think the vast majority of people are not wired to be serial killers or sociopaths and for the average kid, a loving home where conflict is resolved in a healthy manner is a much better setting in which to grow and develop one''s model for interaction later in life. I get that with certain people, people with a diseased mind, all the love from parents cannot totally quell the innate tendencies.

 

[pennquaker09]

Date: 6/18/2008 11:21:51 PM
Author: miraclesrule
I don''t know...didn''t Dylan what''s his name??? Shooter at Columbine have two loving parents?

So did Jeffrey Dahmer, or however you spell that lunatics name....


I think you are going to be who you are going to be, despite or in spite, of your parents.

I don''t know if that is appropriate. I mean I understand what you''re saying and I respect that we all have opinions. However, high school can be brutal. And if you''re not a part of the in crowd it can be more so. We don''t know what was going on in Dylan''s head. And not to excuse what he did, but he is somewhat of a victim also, not matter great his home life seemingly was.

 

[FrekeChild]

I was just thinking about this some more. My best friend (guy) is 24, and has an abusive father. He is abusive to my BFF, his mom and his sister (20). Verbally, mentally and physically. One time my BFF (L) finally got big enough and strong enough to fight back when his dad came after him. L picked his dad up and threw him into the iron security door. That was the last time L''s dad ever picked on him. Before that, L''s mom would take the abuse from L''s dad and try to steer him away from L and J (the sister). Both of the kids knew what was going on, there would be screaming matches and throw down fights, but they always kept the peace. After L fought back, he would do his best to protect his mom.

About a year or so ago, L had moved back in with his parents (partially because he had just finished school and was looking for a job, and partially to protect his little sister). Well, L''s dad found out that L had gotten some tattoos. He went apesh*#. On all of them. He physically only went after L''s mom and J, but he was throwing everything he got his hands on. He told L to get out of his house, that he was never welcome back there, etc. Well, L''s mom stood up to him in front of L and J and told him that if he was kicking L out, then she would leave too. L left. J left. His mom slept on the couch. The next day, L sat down with his mom and talked about everything. She asked him how he would feel if she decided to leave L''s dad. Apparently, despite everything they had been through, he disapproved. But L still called me and asked for my dad''s help, which he was going to give her, but in the 3 days between that initial call and the appointment she canceled and *reconciled* with the dad.

I love L, J and their mom like they are my own family, and I understand their fierce sense of loyalty, but I cannot understand why his mom and his dad have stayed together. They do not like each other, they do not spend any time together, both of the kids know their marriage is a sham, and I guess she just stays with him because she''s scared or perhaps can''t afford to live on her own. Which to me, is so so so sad.

Luckily L seems to do pretty well in his relationships. He even plans on getting married, and would like to have kids. However, because of his parents, he was self-harming, depressed, and very self deprecating.
His sister, J, has not fared so well. She has gone in and out of a abusive relationship for over 4 years, she abuses alcohol, is also self-harming, depressed, and an insomniac. She hasn''t been doing well in school and has managed to get in with the wrong crowd.

So, basically, your question made me think about their situation, being that it is so near and dear to my heart. I really think it would have been best for L''s parents to split up when they were young so that they could have seen what a happy marriage should look like. Both of the kids have suffered greatly due to their choice not so and I hope they can stop the cycle of abuse with them.

 

[miraclesrule]

Yes, high school can be brutal. LIFE can be brutal. That doesn''t mean WE have to be brutal or become brutal as a result of it. I was going to use Obama as an example, but decided to use my family instead.

I have two sisters and a half brother. (I also have two step siblings and another stepsibling that was conceived while the Dad was on a 6 month Westpac cruise, hence not the father, but legally was forced to be...before DNA...long story).

Anyway, to make it easy, let''s just go with me and my two sisters. Same biological parents, same enviroment, same parental situation, same, same, same. Different, different, different. I mean, you couldn''t find three different people if you tried. Yet we came from the same womb and grew up together.

Is it preferably to have a stable loving two parent home...Probably...which means it is better than Possibly.

But is it protection for the kids? No. No way. Sanity, rationality, honesty, compassion, empathy, food, opportunity...these are things that create an environment for a human to thrive. Merely having two good intentioned parents is not enough to guarantee a good outcome. I am not saying that doesn''t increase the odds. It can''t hurt. But again...no guarantee. Heck, even the sanity, rationality, honesty, compassion and empathy won''t guard against another crazy person being born. To me it is no different than two normal people conceiving and giving birth to a disabled child. If there is no way to detect it, there is no way to research how to prevent it. It''s yet another one of the great mysteries of life.

 

[TravelingGal]

I will never forget being about 4 or 5 years old and asking my mom why she didn''t get a divorce.

My parents marriage was miserable. I''m talking alcoholism and domestic violence by my father. As immigrants, my mom felt trapped, I think. She wouldn''t be able to take care of us herself, I guess she thought. Moreover, we come from a culture where divorced parents shed a HUGELY negative light on children and often makes the children somewhat "unmarriageable." Children from families with miserably married parents are OK (in fact, that''s the norm), but children from divorced parents must be "bad."

My mother did the best she could and I credit how well we turned out to her. Still, in this day and age, she would have gotten flamed in so many ways for keeping her children in harms way. I still remember the time that my dad yanked me from the bathroom where I had locked myself in (I was refusing to do something...can''t remember, and locked myself in because I was scared of him) when I finally opened the door. He threw me to the ground and kicked me in the face, drawing blood. My mother was not home at the time.

You probably think my mother is horrible for subjecting us to a life like that, but I understand. And she is an amazing, loving woman who I credit for being the woman I am today. Many of you have probably gathered that I have a pretty decent sense of humor about life. Both my brother and myself are that way and we manage to find pretty much everything kind of funny...it''s been the way we survived.

In the end, I definitely have issues because of my father...the biggest one being fear of commitment. I am probably the most unsympathetic person when it comes to reading some of the LIW angst because I never cared to get married and tie myself down to one man. With my background, I was way more into being independent and strong...and living my OWN life. I got married at 33 (almost 34) and I guess that might be considered late to some. Most of my friends are surprised it happened at all.

My father is dying now, and I''ve let bygones be bygones...I am a big believer in forgiveness. Plus he is a decent human being at heart who came to America with big dreams, only to lead a tough immigrant life. Things just went wrong. I see the regret on his face when I visit him at the care center and I see the joy in his eyes when he sees my daughter...and the sadness that he failed us in so many ways. My brother and I have told him that when he leaves this earth, he leaves behind two successful children, who in the end are still proud of the fact he brought us here to make a better life for us all. I''m just sorry that he and my mother had to sacrifice their life for us.

 

[FrekeChild]

Miracles are you saying that sometimes, despite all odds, nature is what rules over nurture?

 

[diamondfan]

A lot goes into making sure a human life is nurtured and tended in healthy ways. A lot. Love is important but not all that matters. Teaching, parenting, not trying to be best pals with a kid, being willing to set appropriate boundaries, all this matters too. And you can do EVERYTHING right and still have a rotten kid, one who hates you, is not a productive member of society...or God forbid tries to hurt you or others. It is really not as black and white as a recipe, and with all the right ingredients one has a guaranteed outcome. Even with every single variable being right, one does not always have assurances. That is why parenting can be so scary. And a lot of people are really ill equipped to be parents and have kids anyway.

 

[miraclesrule]

Date: 6/18/2008 11:48:43 PM
Author: FrekeChild
Miracles are you saying that sometimes, despite all odds, nature is what rules over nurture?

Yes... can you be my editor?

 

[Kaleigh]

Grew up in a very dysfunctional family. Many kinds of abuse occured. I blamed my mother for staying, and subjecting me to it. My brother left at 16. The kicker, is that I am taking care of them now. What an irony. I guess that a while ago, I chose to forgive, so that my anger wouldn''t eat me alive.

I will say, it shaped me as the parent I am today. I am there for my kids, love and support them. We have open communication, nothing is off limits. I am thrilled, they feel comfortable talking to me about difficult subjects. I am their parent first and foremost, but am also their confidant. And proud to say their friend.

Having parents that love each other is always best.

I turned out ok, despite not having that.

 

[AmberWaves]

Wow, thanks all for the stories and heartfelt replies. Now, I''m best friends with my dad, and speak to my mom every day. While it''s hard to me to forget the past, I can try to forgive (which being a scorpio is difficult, I hold grudges). As a child I learned to take care of my OLDER brother, to feed him and entertain him. I tried to be that parent we both really wanted. Traveling gal, I don''t think your mom was foolish for staying. My mom was raised in an abusive home as well, and continued that cycle of being raised a strict Catholic who didn''t leave when children were involved (her parents were non-english speaking hispanics). Her life wasn''t easy, so I don''t blame her for trying to do what she thought was best for us, because I''m not sure we would have had a home to live in, or a decent school to go to had she left my (white) dad.

I try to think of what I would do if I had been in a position like them. I honestly don''t know, but I DO know that I envied all of my friends with the Cosby show type of families. As for the nature vs. nuture thing, I don''t know. My parents are drinkers, and often abused substances. My brother and I refrain from any mood altering substance, don''t drink, and read for fun. We couldn''t be more different from our parents, but we''re like each other. Sometimes I''m angry that he left here for Sydney, leaving me to have to fill the missing pieces in my parents lives, since they can''t really afford to visit him. DH pointed out last night that he did what was best for HIM, finding a wife who can make him happy- for possibly the first time in his life. I was resentful, because I went through the same things, but I stayed here. Someone needs to be responsible for our parents. Despite all the terror in my childhood, I AM loved by them. Separate they are good people, together not so much. That''s why I wonder what life would have been like had they split up. As I mentioned before, I may not have had much of a stable place to go (ie house, school, grandmother''s house), I could have just been roaming around waiting for my mom to finally settle herself.

 

[Kaleigh]

Amber,
You have a loving relationship with your hubby. You two will make wonderful parents. Even more so because of what you have been through as a child. I am glad things are great with your dad, the power of forgivness is huge.