How to differentiate between someone going through a tough time and domestic abuse (mental)?

[tyty333]

Anger and lack of insight CAN be a part of depression. How was he before he was depressed? If he was generally a nice guy, then i would say it is the depression or his meds.

I was going to ditto @House Cat in asking how his behavior was before the depression? Was he an a$$hole before the depression?
I suspect all this controlling behavior was brought on by the depression (or she wouldn't have married him in the first place).

I think a lot of depressed people only see how things affect them. They are overwhelmed by the depression and don't have the
capacity to see how their behavior is affecting their loved ones. It's all about them...not necessarily by choice. They are basically in survival mode. They do not/can not see things as a "normal" person because their brain is not "normal" right now. So you may see
him as an a$$hole but I suspect it is more that his behavior is asinine and it is being controlled/directed by his depression. I'm not
sure that he would have better control of his behavior if it is pointed out to him. I think it is something that needs to go through
his therapist. I think it would be good if your friend could see his therapist and tell them what's going on.

So, in light of my comments...I would say that you should try to support her and listen to her vent. There may come a day when
she feels like she can no longer handle it/deal with it for herself and her children. Then, you help her get out. I know you are
not in an easy position. I wish you luck and patience with your friend.

 

[mellowyellowgirl]

@House Cat @tyty333 definitely it's been much worse since the depression.

The ringing up of companies that leave pamphlets in his mailbox has happened since they were dating. I think before he was mostly grumpy at the general public. I remember going out with her and her receiving calls where he'd be venting because he had a fight with someone who was talking too loud in the restaurant or someone did something to him at the supermarket, in the carpark etc. She'd have to take a few minutes to comfort him but I don't think the discontent was ever aimed at her back in those days. Plus as I've mentioned before she's super easy going so she doesn't mind soothing him about stuff like that, especially when it wasn't aimed at her.

The only other thing I can think of is that he's got no friends. All his high school friends were horrible and dumped him, the students he tutored in his previous extra gig did not appreciate and were ungrateful to him, people he met at university turned out to be horrible, ex girlfriends were horrible, people he met at work wronged him etc etc

I will admit I'm biased about this due to my issues with my mother who has no friends and is always "wronged" by people. I find it hard to believe that someone can be wronged by everyone they meet. I will confess it probably adds to my bias against him as I think people are generally good, or at least someone will be good. What are the odds of everyone he meets being horrible? Even if you look at PS in general terms there are very good people on here and it's a random forum.

 

[Ionysis]

I’ve held back on commenting to date because my own husband has mental health problems and displayed some of these traits.

The last post resonated a lot. Someone else was always the cause of his inability to cope. The drivers who cut him up. The dogs barking driving him mad. Friends taking advantage. The cleaner putting things back in the cupboard in the wrong place. All were fodder for a rant / breakdown.

I knew it’d be my turn at some point to be the cause of his misery. And that came around when he found some equally mental woman to download on who “understood him”. Then it was clearly his unhappy marriage which made him unable to cope with life.

I found that when I kicked him out it had a very dramatic impact. His mental health didn’t improve but without me to enable him he had to cope somehow. And he realised just how good he had it at home. He got stuck in the U.K. during the pandemic and had to live for six months on his own and with his sister not seeing me and the girls. When he came back I made him stay in a flat on his own for another four months.

Amazingly since that time he has miraculously turned into much less of a dick.

Since he now knows that if his behaviour tips the see saw of our lives into him being more of a negative than a positive that he will be out on his ear he has stopped all of the more extreme annoying / unacceptable traits which were before “uncontrollable” because of his PTSD / depressions / anxiety / OCD / BPD.

Quite interesting how people with “mental health issues” are suddenly able to hold it together and stop being *******s when they have to.

He is now actually rather nice to be around and in general is a rather good father and husband. Not ideal. But a thousand times better. And if he slips I only have to look at him a certain way and he stops whatever unacceptable attitude he has adopted and apologises.

I strongly suggest your friend packs her husbands bags and rents him a damp and smelly studio apartment nearby for six months to give him “time to work on his issues”. I am pretty confident his attitude will improve significantly and her life will also be a hell of a lot better.

 

[Bojambles]

I'm going to be blunt because it's necessary - he's abusive, insecure, and frankly, psycho.

He's an adult. There are plenty of unhappy adults in situations not of their own making that still behave like...adults.

No sane adult gets upset that their kids love their grandparents who are actually... taking care of them and sparing him the cost of childcare (oh well, he thinks your Bestie should have borne the brunt of child rearing anyway...)

Carrying that grudge for years and thinking he's owed and apology... god this is a small, small man. Shows that he's always been one, it's not the depression.

Abusive *******s can get depression too. Doesn't excuse their actions.

I'd even wager that the seeing a psychologist and supposedly taking medicine is also manipulation on his part. He can claim that he's "playing his part" and continue being an *******.

And unfortunately your Bestie thinks she seems to think that she can change the situation but she can't... she can only do better for her kids and herself.

Also, the moment her patience (or health) runs dry, this is exactly the sort of man who will get physically abusive, pretty much immediately. By then, he'd have isolated her from her family and friends too.

I was clinically diagnosed as being depressed (and for very good reasons) in the distant past when I was barely an adult, and I never treated anyone like that.

I also dated and almost married somebody like that before. I have zero sympathy for anyone like that. They prey on partners who have a "fix it" mentality and who typically come from less than ideal family situations.

Men like these are actually dangerous and if you don't hear from her for a few days, you should definitely check up on her.

 

[House Cat]

@House Cat @tyty333 definitely it's been much worse since the depression.

The ringing up of companies that leave pamphlets in his mailbox has happened since they were dating. I think before he was mostly grumpy at the general public. I remember going out with her and her receiving calls where he'd be venting because he had a fight with someone who was talking too loud in the restaurant or someone did something to him at the supermarket, in the carpark etc. She'd have to take a few minutes to comfort him but I don't think the discontent was ever aimed at her back in those days. Plus as I've mentioned before she's super easy going so she doesn't mind soothing him about stuff like that, especially when it wasn't aimed at her.

The only other thing I can think of is that he's got no friends. All his high school friends were horrible and dumped him, the students he tutored in his previous extra gig did not appreciate and were ungrateful to him, people he met at university turned out to be horrible, ex girlfriends were horrible, people he met at work wronged him etc etc

I will admit I'm biased about this due to my issues with my mother who has no friends and is always "wronged" by people. I find it hard to believe that someone can be wronged by everyone they meet. I will confess it probably adds to my bias against him as I think people are generally good, or at least someone will be good. What are the odds of everyone he meets being horrible? Even if you look at PS in general terms there are very good people on here and it's a random forum.

A person with no friends is a huge red flag for me. This shows a pattern of mistreating people. Otherwise, he is so entitled that he believe his friends should know he’s special and treat him accordingly.

Everything you’ve mentioned points to entitlement. “How dare people send him pamphlets!” “How dare someone talk loudly in a restaurant in his presence!” They must now face his wrath.

My mom’s a narcissist and behaves in the same way. She was also cruel to her family.

I believe this guy is abusive and probably always has been. It’s just stepped up a notch because of his depression.

My bestie and i can say anything to one another. If your friendship is truly safe, I don’t see anything wrong with voicing your concerns

 

[tyty333]

@House Cat @tyty333 definitely it's been much worse since the depression.

The ringing up of companies that leave pamphlets in his mailbox has happened since they were dating. I think before he was mostly grumpy at the general public. I remember going out with her and her receiving calls where he'd be venting because he had a fight with someone who was talking too loud in the restaurant or someone did something to him at the supermarket, in the carpark etc. She'd have to take a few minutes to comfort him but I don't think the discontent was ever aimed at her back in those days. Plus as I've mentioned before she's super easy going so she doesn't mind soothing him about stuff like that, especially when it wasn't aimed at her.

The only other thing I can think of is that he's got no friends. All his high school friends were horrible and dumped him, the students he tutored in his previous extra gig did not appreciate and were ungrateful to him, people he met at university turned out to be horrible, ex girlfriends were horrible, people he met at work wronged him etc etc

I will admit I'm biased about this due to my issues with my mother who has no friends and is always "wronged" by people. I find it hard to believe that someone can be wronged by everyone they meet. I will confess it probably adds to my bias against him as I think people are generally good, or at least someone will be good. What are the odds of everyone he meets being horrible? Even if you look at PS in general terms there are very good people on here and it's a random forum.

He sounds like he is overly sensitive, judgemental (even before depression), and controlling. Sure would be beneficial if his therapist
knew about all this. Hopefully they are able to get the info out of him but would be so much easier if his wife could just fill the
therapist in. There could be other underlying issues that are causing some of these problems...for example...my son has a
Sensory Processing Disorder. It causes him to be overly sensitive to sound, lights, noise, touch etc. His method of dealing with
it is to retreat from whatever is causing the issue. Your friend's husband's method may be to confront and ask those causing
the issue to stop. When those people find him being unrealistic in his request (demand) they drop him as a friend or when they
wont do what he asks, he declares them "horrible" and drops them as a friend.

I could go on and on being an arm-chair therapist with my 1 psychology class in college. It just seems like whatever issues he
has is not allowing him to function in normal society. This would cause anyone to be depressed. Again, wishing you and your
friend the best of luck in this situation. If its not clear, I don't think your friend should give in to any of his unrealistic demands.

 

[Bojambles]

The last post resonated a lot. Someone else was always the cause of his inability to cope. The drivers who cut him up. The dogs barking driving him mad. Friends taking advantage. The cleaner putting things back in the cupboard in the wrong place. All were fodder for a rant / breakdown.

I knew it’d be my turn at some point to be the cause of his misery. And that came around when he found some equally mental woman to download on who “understood him”. Then it was clearly his unhappy marriage which made him unable to cope with life.

God I dated someone like that who was Mr. Charming for months until the mask slipped, and you're spot on.

Anything could set him off. I texted him, or I didn't text him. I didn't jump up in the middle of the night to reply to his 10 messages that I didn't see till I woke up in the morning. You gotta read their mind or it's your fault!

 

[Elizabeth35]

I don't mean this rudely---but what exactly is her upside in this marriage? I'm hoping he has some redeeming qualities that make it worth sticking with him.

Why does she think she (and the children) don't deserve better, or that his behavior is even close to normal?

 

[ringo865]

My former husband was/is still like this. He blames everyone else for anything going wrong (or perceived to be wrong) in his life. Bounce a check because you spend all your money and then write another check, the Bank is a bunch of ahole/fraud/effers. People at work are all a bunch of effers. Everyone in the world is an effer.

So, I started going to “marriage counseling” by myself for like four months and it was really insightful. In fact, my counselor referred me to “Al Anon” because a lot of “my” complaints were about his behavior while drinking or trying to drink or not being able to drink. Those effers.

Al Anon might not be the thing for you, but what it did for me was make me see MY role in the relationship and, much like your bestie, my roll as the doormat in the relationship. I found much help going there - even not sharing, just listening - as i found that my situation was not unique and I needn’t bear everything alone.

THEN, because I was less likely to calmly soothe his tantrums when everyone is an effer, he decided that he would go to counseling with me (after I had prodded him for months) because he wanted to see what kind of BS I was spewing to the counselor about him. He said he’d march right in there and tell him how I’m a big fat liar making up all those things about him just to piss him off.

So, he goes in there, and now I’m armed with a couple coping skills, like I was NOT going to bail him out of his words. Example, he starts something like “those effers are a bunch of effers for effing me around like that.” I used to say something like “what he means is that when people don’t meet his expectations, he can get upset” or “what he really means is (something less a-hole-ish than what he said).”

Then, after this ONE joint marriage counseling session, where exhub (after spewing venom about effers (including me) effing him over time and again) sat there with his arms crossed and rolling his eyes, the counselor told me something to the effect of the previous poster, which was: He is not going to change his ways. He is making that very clear. What you must do is decide whether that behavior is acceptable for your life plans (including my at-the-time 1 year old son), or whether it is not.

So, like the previous poster, I decided that I wouldn’t expose my child to a life like that (which ironically is exactly how he described his stepdad growing up) and after a few more months of (solo) marriage counseling and Al-Anon, served him with divorce papers.

As you can imagine, he was completely blindsided that I just went psycho one day for no reason at all and divorced him out of nowhere. To him, everything was fine in our marriage. He could go out and do whatever he wanted whenever he wanted to, spend all the money, not have to play with his kid or fulfill his marital obligations. Things were perfect. FOR HIM. But not for me. He kept claiming he doesn’t have a drinking problem. And i finally learned, “Maybe not, but I have a problem with your drinking. And I’m going to quit now.”

We’ve been divorced just over 21 years now, and I haven’t spoken to him since our son graduated high school. Sadly, my son moved in with him to live rent free. Hopefully DS learned well enough having grown up with me (and, for 10 years, my new husband) that living there doesn’t override his common sense.

 

[AnastasiaBeaverhausen]

I will say, I know some folks will stay in bad relationships, because they feel that they're somewhat in control. That they're allowing themselves to tolerate this kind of behavior. They believe they can walk away anytime "if" their SO ever crosses a certain line or does something unforgivable.

Unfortunately in my experience, they'll keep upping their threshold for what behaviors they'll tolerate until they lose all perspective of what's "normal" or "acceptable."

 

[mellowyellowgirl]

I don't mean this rudely---but what exactly is her upside in this marriage? I'm hoping he has some redeeming qualities that make it worth sticking with him.

Why does she think she (and the children) don't deserve better, or that his behavior is even close to normal?

Sorry I'm a bit late replying!!!

He was super competent. He used to earn a really high salary so she could be a SAHM and he used to be able to take care of everything. He paid all the bills, booked all the holidays, planned what they were going to eat, did all the grocery shopping, found the best tradespeople. He was just high maintenance emotionally but she didn't mind that.

He's since stopped doing any housework, and works part time now because people upset him (she's gone back to work while the twins are at preschool which I think is fabulous under these circumstances).

I think she believes that if he fixes his issues and can somehow be happy again, they can get back to him being competent and taking care of things.

 

[mellowyellowgirl]

Thank you everyone! I really appreciate all your comments and insights. A few of you have husbands or ex husbands who are eerily similar to this fellow.

She's lunching with me on the 19th so it'll be good to see how she's doing.

I think I'm going to raise a few points that you guys raised: her threshold of what is "normal", what is her upside in this relationship, the entitlement, the fact that depression doesn't give him a free pass.

I still find it so tricky. Not the idea of being honest with her because I know that we can be very honest with each other (plus my husband is super daft and she's told me before that there is no way she could tolerate his daftness which did not upset me at all so we've had candid conversations about these things). I think I find it hard because one person's fine is another person's dealbreaker. Is there even such a thing as universally unacceptable in these situations (besides outright criminal behavior)?

I find him really unacceptable but does that mean that she can't spend the next 50 years with him if she finds it tolerable? Does that make sense?

Like if you feel that you can just eat chick peas and cabbage for the rest of your life and swallow vitamins and you're usually ok doing it, who am I to float in and say "Well I think there's something wrong here?"

I know it's a weird example but it's the only one I can think of right now because I hate chick peas and cabbage!

 

[Bojambles]

Sorry I'm a bit late replying!!!

He was super competent. He used to earn a really high salary so she could be a SAHM and he used to be able to take care of everything. He paid all the bills, booked all the holidays, planned what they were going to eat, did all the grocery shopping, found the best tradespeople. He was just high maintenance emotionally but she didn't mind that.

He's since stopped doing any housework, and works part time now because people upset him (she's gone back to work while the twins are at preschool which I think is fabulous under these circumstances).

I think she believes that if he fixes his issues and can somehow be happy again, they can get back to him being competent and taking care of things.

He can, but it looks like he won't. And it's completely in his control, not your besties

For depression, medication is only one part of the equation; in the long run he has to change his mindset, but it looks like it's only getting worse.

I find him really unacceptable but does that mean that she can't spend the next 50 years with him if she finds it tolerable? Does that make sense?

Like if you feel that you can just eat chick peas and cabbage for the rest of your life and swallow vitamins and you're usually ok doing it, who am I to float in and say "Well I think there's something wrong here?"

I think you can't accept it because you know that this isn't fair to her, and you care about her.

It's not life choices (ie. say she's quitting an amazing job to go be a surfer - nothing wrong with that if that's what someone wants), it's that you know that this is bad for her, objectively.

Kind of how if you're watching your friend work hard but suffer in a terrible job and say that "it's okay", you'll also voice concerns?

 

[mellowyellowgirl]

@Bojambles that makes perfect sense. Thank you. I was having trouble sorting it out in my head.