How to talk to your kids about Michael Sam

[TC1987]

I don't have any children. But I can recall being a child and really not giving a darn about celebrities, athletes, or much of anything they did, said, kissed, dated, married, or got their pictures in the newspapers for. I am sure that I never had much interest in watching TV news broadcasts, either. Michael Sam is a flippin' athlete. As such, it's completely permissible to just ignore him and the entire issue. Unless I had a child asking me questions about it, my thoughts are "it doesn't need to be discussed unless the kid brings it up."

 

[monarch64]

Hahahaha! That video is hilarious, the actors are fantastic. Hey Kenny, I'll take all the parenting advice I can get. I've never done this before! I also really appreciate your comments in this thread. Gives me greater insight and I'm always thankful for that.

My mom was really open with us about sex from the time we were old enough to ask questions or make observations. I can't remember ever hearing anything negative about two people of the same sex having a relationship, or that it was ever a big deal. My brother was called a "queer" while riding the bus one day because he hugged another boy, and that upset him so much I remember my mom telling him it's ok to hug whoever he wants. She was so loving about it and didn't make it into a production. My dad was not the one to give "the talks" but I recall his attitude just being "who cares what people do, not my business" with no emotional slant either way. They both spent time in major metro areas although they were from small Midwestern towns, so perhaps that had something to do with their somewhat more sophisticated views.

I remember when Ellen kissed a woman on her show like, what, 20 years ago? It was a big deal then, or the media made it out to be. Same thing here, in 20 years we will be like, Oh yeah, remember that? Things changed and life went on!

 

[Dreamer_D]

There are certainly age-appropriate graduation of details for discussions of romance and sex when talking to kids.
But I argue that discussing straight ones earlier than gay ones is harmful to your kids and to society.
It sends the message that gay is bad and straight is good.

That's why your, "… things like homosexual relationships" comment stood out.

Why different treatment for straight and gay?
(Must be a bad thing if mommy won't bring it up or answers my question with, "Well discuss THAT when you are old enough.)

This is how self-hatred and low self-esteem starts at an early age if your kids are gay.
If they are straight it's how the seed of homophobia is planted early on.

Very well said, Kenny. Treating being gay as taboo or a difficult discussion sends the message it is wrong. If that is the message you want to send to your kids... that is your choice. But its important to be aware that avoiding a discussion sends JUST as clear a message to your kids about your opinions about the issue as does speaking up and just directly communicating your feelings.

Q: "Mommy, why did that man kiss that woman?"
A: "Because he is happy and sharing his joy with someone he loves."

Q:"Mommy why did that man kiss that other man?"
A:"Because he is happy and sharing his joy with someone he loves."

I think its only a hard conversation if you are conflicted personally about how you feel about the issue and don't know what message you want to send.

 

[NonieMarie]

It's really none of anyone's business how or when any of us chooses to talk to our kids about things like homosexual relationships.

Legally I may have no say in how you raise your kids, but I do have something to say about it.
You are forming tomorrows voters who can deny or give civil rights and equality to groups like gays.

You have the legal right to isolate and homeschool your kids to become Nazis or teach your daughters they can only get to heaven by being one of 15 wives serving one man.
Just expect disapproval for what leaks out of the privacy of your home.

A civilized society has standards.
Standards change, especially when it comes to civil rights being denied like women not being allowed to vote.
Gay used to be bad. Not any longer.

There are certainly age-appropriate graduation of details for discussions of romance and sex when talking to kids.
But I argue that discussing straight ones earlier than gay ones is harmful to your kids and to society.
It sends the message that gay is bad and straight is good.

That's why your, "… things like homosexual relationships" comment stood out.

Why different treatment for straight and gay?
(Must be a bad thing if mommy won't bring it up or answers my question with, "Well discuss THAT when you are old enough.)

This is how self-hatred and low self-esteem starts at an early age if your kids are gay.
If they are straight it's how the seed of homophobia is planted early on.
I speak from experience; it surely worked on me.
The romantic/sex part of Kenny's development lagged 10 or 15 years because what I felt and who I was inside had no place in society.
It was all hushed up by the "nice and moral" people.

Waiting till later to discuss this as one of those 'naughty' subjects is bad because our earliest wiring is the hardest to rewire.
To this day I still struggling to shake the negative self-image instilled by this faux-morality.

That's why yesterday's NFL-Gay kiss live on TV was huge to me.
It wasn't just a kiss; it was a revolution, culturally speaking.

The NFL is a powerful symbol in our machismo male culture.
Fireworks of celebration went off in my head when I read that NFL members who tweeted to condemn the kiss were fined by the NFL.

Finally the kind of people who beat the shit out of me, physically and psychologically, for being gay 45 years ago are being disciplined AND it's all being broadcast to society that this shit is not morality, it's bigotry, and it has to stop!

IMO the people shocked and outraged by yesterday's kiss got exactly what they needed to help drag them out of the dark ages.

Kenny, I totally agree. We live in a society where there are all different types of families. If you shelter your children to this fact, you are doing them a disservice. I think that one of the first books that should be read to all children is one that has all different kinds of parents and children, gay, straight, single parent and biracial. That way there is nothing strange, no questions asked. It is just part of life. Most kids don't ask why is Daddy a boy and Mommy a girl because they are read books that show just their family.
My daughter is biracial, my late husband was black. It is sad to think that parents would not want their children to know that my family was part of society because they thought they were too young to know. IMHO, No matter how you word it, it does seem that because the discussion needs to be "age appropriate" that there is something wrong with a relationship that is not heterosexual.

 

[Clairitek]

It's really none of anyone's business how or when any of us chooses to talk to our kids about things like homosexual relationships.

Legally I may have no say in how you raise your kids, but I do have something to say about it.
You are forming tomorrows voters who can deny or give civil rights and equality to groups like gays.

You have the legal right to isolate and homeschool your kids to become Nazis or teach your daughters they can only get to heaven by being one of 15 wives serving one man.
Just expect disapproval for what leaks out of the privacy of your home.

A civilized society has standards.
Standards change, especially when it comes to civil rights being denied like women not being allowed to vote.
Gay used to be bad. Not any longer.

There are certainly age-appropriate graduation of details for discussions of romance and sex when talking to kids.
But I argue that discussing straight ones earlier than gay ones is harmful to your kids and to society.
It sends the message that gay is bad and straight is good.

That's why your, "… things like homosexual relationships" comment stood out.

Why different treatment for straight and gay?
(Must be a bad thing if mommy won't bring it up or answers my question with, "Well discuss THAT when you are old enough.)

This is how self-hatred and low self-esteem starts at an early age if your kids are gay.
If they are straight it's how the seed of homophobia is planted early on.
I speak from experience; it surely worked on me.
The romantic/sex part of Kenny's development lagged 10 or 15 years because what I felt and who I was inside had no place in society.
It was all hushed up by the "nice and moral" people.

Waiting till later to discuss this as one of those 'naughty' subjects is bad because our earliest wiring is the hardest to rewire.
To this day I still struggling to shake the negative self-image instilled by this faux-morality.

That's why yesterday's NFL-Gay kiss live on TV was huge to me.
It wasn't just a kiss; it was a revolution, culturally speaking.

The NFL is a powerful symbol in our machismo male culture.
Fireworks of celebration went off in my head when I read that NFL members who tweeted to condemn the kiss were fined by the NFL.

Finally the kind of people who beat the shit out of me, physically and psychologically, for being gay 45 years ago are being disciplined AND it's all being broadcast to society that this shit is not morality, it's bigotry, and it has to stop!

IMO the people shocked and outraged by yesterday's kiss got exactly what they needed to help drag them out of the dark ages.

This is one of my favorite posts of yours Kenny. Bravo. I especially like how you pointed out that what you show your children now in the privacy of your own home can have a very broad effect on the rights of others down the road when your kids are old enough to vote.

 

[NonieMarie]

It's really none of anyone's business how or when any of us chooses to talk to our kids about things like homosexual relationships.

Legally I may have no say in how you raise your kids, but I do have something to say about it.
You are forming tomorrows voters who can deny or give civil rights and equality to groups like gays.

You have the legal right to isolate and homeschool your kids to become Nazis or teach your daughters they can only get to heaven by being one of 15 wives serving one man.
Just expect disapproval for what leaks out of the privacy of your home.

A civilized society has standards.
Standards change, especially when it comes to civil rights being denied like women not being allowed to vote.
Gay used to be bad. Not any longer.

There are certainly age-appropriate graduation of details for discussions of romance and sex when talking to kids.
But I argue that discussing straight ones earlier than gay ones is harmful to your kids and to society.
It sends the message that gay is bad and straight is good.

That's why your, "… things like homosexual relationships" comment stood out.

Why different treatment for straight and gay?
(Must be a bad thing if mommy won't bring it up or answers my question with, "Well discuss THAT when you are old enough.)

This is how self-hatred and low self-esteem starts at an early age if your kids are gay.
If they are straight it's how the seed of homophobia is planted early on.
I speak from experience; it surely worked on me.
The romantic/sex part of Kenny's development lagged 10 or 15 years because what I felt and who I was inside had no place in society.
It was all hushed up by the "nice and moral" people.

Waiting till later to discuss this as one of those 'naughty' subjects is bad because our earliest wiring is the hardest to rewire.
To this day I still struggling to shake the negative self-image instilled by this faux-morality.

That's why yesterday's NFL-Gay kiss live on TV was huge to me.
It wasn't just a kiss; it was a revolution, culturally speaking.

The NFL is a powerful symbol in our machismo male culture.
Fireworks of celebration went off in my head when I read that NFL members who tweeted to condemn the kiss were fined by the NFL.

Finally the kind of people who beat the shit out of me, physically and psychologically, for being gay 45 years ago are being disciplined AND it's all being broadcast to society that this shit is not morality, it's bigotry, and it has to stop!

IMO the people shocked and outraged by yesterday's kiss got exactly what they needed to help drag them out of the dark ages.

This is one of my favorite posts of yours Kenny. Bravo. I especially like how you pointed out that what you show your children now in the privacy of your own home can have a very broad effect on the rights of others down the road when your kids are old enough to vote.

 

[Dancing Fire]

A civilized society has standards.
Standards change, especially when it comes to civil rights being denied like women not being allowed to vote.
Gay used to be bad. Not any longer.

There are certainly age-appropriate graduation of details for discussions of romance and sex when talking to kids.
But I argue that discussing straight ones earlier than gay ones is harmful to your kids and to society.
It sends the message that gay is bad and straight is good.

That's why your, "… things like homosexual relationships" comment stood out.

Why different treatment for straight and gay?
(Must be a bad thing if mommy won't bring it up or answers my question with, "Well discuss THAT when you are old enough.)

Kenny
On the other side of the coin straight peoples are being label as bigots in society is wrong too.

 

[House Cat]

When my littlest was three we attended a birthday party where the child had two mommies. It wasn't on my son's radar. We saw no reason to really explain. This is pretty normal in California.

About a year later, my littlest and I were discussing family structures. You see, I have a step dad and I consider him my dad. This was the time to discuss how families have many different structures, step parents, two mommies, two daddies, no dad, no mom, etc. Families are made up of a bunch of people who love one another dearly and work to raise the children, support one another, etc... Even friends are a part of our family.

He was taught that day that the core value of our family is to love everyone regardless of race, or orientation, or whatever differences they might possess.

When the subject of gay or transgender comes up, we have a discussion to clear up curiosity that my son may have. But it is always said that we accept and love everyone. I am sure to say that because I know there will come a time when the boys on the playground will have their stage of confusion and homophobia (around puberty.) This is an ugly stage in a boy's life and I REALLY don't want MY SON to partake in this small minded, horrendous activity. I want him to be open minded and loving. I WANT HIM TO BE ANGRY when he hears these boys behave in this way.

A few weeks ago, my son came to me in tears because another boy on the playground said he hated all black people and not even the president was welcome in his home! You know this small minded crap came from the adults in this boy's life. One of my son's best friends is African American, and this was said right in front of his friend. This was a perfect opportunity for my son to take action and do the right thing by telling the teacher. But even more importantly, "positive peer pressure" took place among these 8 and 9 year old boys. They don't hang out with that boy anymore. That boy LOST FRIENDS for what he said! THIS is what I want to see when that age of confusion and homophobia comes with puberty! I want to see positive peer pressure take place and let everyone know that it isn't acceptable to single people out and hurt them because of their differences anymore.

I am in college right now, and I LOVE this generation. They are open minded over here. We "old people" can have our deep discussion as to why "gay" is even an issue but the truth is, I see this as an issue that will eventually die out, with the old bigots.......

 

[momhappy]

It's really none of anyone's business how or when any of us chooses to talk to our kids about things like homosexual relationships.

Legally I may have no say in how you raise your kids, but I do have something to say about it.
You are forming tomorrows voters who can deny or give civil rights and equality to groups like gays.

You have the legal right to isolate and homeschool your kids to become Nazis or teach your daughters they can only get to heaven by being one of 15 wives serving one man.
Just expect disapproval for what leaks out of the privacy of your home.

A civilized society has standards.
Standards change, especially when it comes to civil rights being denied like women not being allowed to vote.
Gay used to be bad. Not any longer.

There are certainly age-appropriate graduation of details for discussions of romance and sex when talking to kids.
But I argue that discussing straight ones earlier than gay ones is harmful to your kids and to society.
It sends the message that gay is bad and straight is good.

That's why your, "… things like homosexual relationships" comment stood out.

Why different treatment for straight and gay?
(Must be a bad thing if mommy won't bring it up or answers my question with, "Well discuss THAT when you are old enough.)

This is how self-hatred and low self-esteem starts at an early age if your kids are gay.
If they are straight it's how the seed of homophobia is planted early on.
I speak from experience; it surely worked on me.
The romantic/sex part of Kenny's development lagged 10 or 15 years because what I felt and who I was inside had no place in society.
It was all hushed up by the "nice and moral" people.

Waiting till later to discuss this as one of those 'naughty' subjects is bad because our earliest wiring is the hardest to rewire.
To this day I still struggling to shake the negative self-image instilled by this faux-morality.

That's why yesterday's NFL-Gay kiss live on TV was huge to me.
It wasn't just a kiss; it was a revolution, culturally speaking.

The NFL is a powerful symbol in our machismo male culture.
Fireworks of celebration went off in my head when I read that NFL members who tweeted to condemn the kiss were fined by the NFL.

Finally the kind of people who beat the shit out of me, physically and psychologically, for being gay 45 years ago are being disciplined AND it's all being broadcast to society that this shit is not morality, it's bigotry, and it has to stop!

IMO the people shocked and outraged by yesterday's kiss got exactly what they needed to help drag them out of the dark ages.

So because I choose not to have what I consider an age-appropriate discussion with my ELEMENTARY SCHOOL-AGE children, I am sending the message the homosexuality is taboo, etc.???? Interesting…. No one here even knows me, my children, my parenting style or my family and yet, I'm being judged as a parent. Again, interesting (and ironic in a thread about passing judgment).
This dialogue reminds me of a conversation that I had with a friend of mine when my kids were babies. I breastfed my children for 6 months each, but in public, I chose to breastfeed very discreetly (I covered myself with a blanket and nothing was ever exposed). My friend told me how it was my "job" as a breastfeeding mother to make breastfeeding normal/acceptable, etc. to the rest of the general public and therefore, I shouldn't breastfeed discreetly (I should nurse freely/uncovered in the middle of a restaurant, etc.). Just because I was a breastfeeding mom, does not mean that it was my job to normalize breastfeeding for the rest of the world. If that's your "cause" great, but it's not mine.
It is my job, however, to raise caring, loving, respectful, kind, polite, children and I feel that I'm doing that. My 8 year-old is grossed out by seeing a kiss in a Disney movie and yet I'm supposed to have a dialogue about homosexuality???? Again, each family should have the ability to decide when the timing is right to discuss certain subjects (without feeling like they are being judged for their decisions).
So, kenny, you can pick apart my posts all you want and highlight phrases like "things like homosexual relationships…" but in the end, only I will decide when I want to talk to my kids about adult relationships. I don't discuss (in detail) heterosexual relationships either at this stage in their lives. My son asked me just a few months ago where babies come from and my answer was the same: "we will discuss that when you're older" so your assumption about different treatment for straight/gay was incorrect (big surprise ).
As usual I feel that I need to add the part about nothing personal, no hard feelings, let's just agree to disagree, etc. so that people don't think that I'm all flared up over the discussion because I'm not. I appreciate the discussion - I just don't happen to agree with the fact that some people think that they can/should tell me how to parent my children

 

[kenny]

A civilized society has standards.
Standards change, especially when it comes to civil rights being denied like women not being allowed to vote.
Gay used to be bad. Not any longer.

There are certainly age-appropriate graduation of details for discussions of romance and sex when talking to kids.
But I argue that discussing straight ones earlier than gay ones is harmful to your kids and to society.
It sends the message that gay is bad and straight is good.

That's why your, "… things like homosexual relationships" comment stood out.

Why different treatment for straight and gay?
(Must be a bad thing if mommy won't bring it up or answers my question with, "Well discuss THAT when you are old enough.)

Kenny
On the other side of the coin straight peoples are being label as bigots in society is wrong too.

Zillions of straight people are not bigots.
Only the bigots are bigots.

ETA: I know bigots who are gay.

 

[katharath]

I have no problem with public displays of affection between anyone. So it wouldn't bother me at all if my sons saw that kiss. In fact, I would like them to see it because I want them to grow up knowing that being gay is totally normal and boring, so normal and boring that a man can kiss his boyfriend to celebrate the biggest milestone he has ever achieved in his life and it is no big deal at all! No bigger deal than a man and woman kissing in the same situation -- which I am sure happened at the draft but the cameras weren't tuned in to catch it! Why? Because kissing between men and women is commonplace. I hope one day kissing between men and between women will be just as commonplace.

I have two sons who are five and three and when we talk about relationships I try always to convey that there are lots of different families out there, and lots of different types of romantic couples. I don't like to talk about life as if there is one right way for things to be. My students in my relationships classes at university taught me that -- this new generation is very enlightened and very aware and critical of any teachers talking as if white/straight/privileged/western/married is the best perspective or even the dominant perspective and every other way of being is only interesting as an aberration. Anyway, from them I have adapted and learned not to take anything for granted when it comes to relationships. And I try to talk to my kids the same way in the million conversations we have each week where I am subtly guiding their worldview.

Thought statistically speaking my boys will most likely be straight, if they do turn out to be gay or have friends who are gay, then I want them to know they are loved and their friends are a-ok with us. Or if they are effeminate, or any other way of being that is against the "norm", I want them to know its fine with me too. I try not to make assumptions when I talk to them, like saying, "when you have kids..." (They may not have kids), or "when you meet the woman you will marry..." (Because they might not marry, or marry women if they do). I know some people think that way of communicating takes too much thought, but it doesn't really in my experience, and I want to communicate with my kids in a any that authentically reflects my values, which includes acknowledging and respecting diversity in its many forms.

So my kids know men marry men sometimes, and women marry women, and they know that some kids have parents who live together ands some have kids who live apart, and some kids have the same color skin as their parents and some have different coloured skin from their parents... It's all the same issue to me. Teaching inclusiveness is more basic than just avoiding saying bad things or countering negative ideas your kids express. I think the building blocks of true open-mindedness starts much earlier with our reactions to the simple things they say and do, and the messages we indirectly communicate concerning everyday things in life.

I really love your post, Dreamer. I also have two younger sons (9 and 6). Your post hit home for me because we share a very similar outlook. Thanks for taking the time to write it

 

[TooPatient]

It's really none of anyone's business how or when any of us chooses to talk to our kids about things like homosexual relationships.

Legally I may have no say in how you raise your kids, but I do have something to say about it.
You are forming tomorrows voters who can deny or give civil rights and equality to groups like gays.

You have the legal right to isolate and homeschool your kids to become Nazis or teach your daughters they can only get to heaven by being one of 15 wives serving one man.
Just expect disapproval for what leaks out of the privacy of your home.

A civilized society has standards.
Standards change, especially when it comes to civil rights being denied like women not being allowed to vote.
Gay used to be bad. Not any longer.

There are certainly age-appropriate graduation of details for discussions of romance and sex when talking to kids.
But I argue that discussing straight ones earlier than gay ones is harmful to your kids and to society.
It sends the message that gay is bad and straight is good.

That's why your, "… things like homosexual relationships" comment stood out.

Why different treatment for straight and gay?
(Must be a bad thing if mommy won't bring it up or answers my question with, "Well discuss THAT when you are old enough.)

This is how self-hatred and low self-esteem starts at an early age if your kids are gay.
If they are straight it's how the seed of homophobia is planted early on.
I speak from experience; it surely worked on me.
The romantic/sex part of Kenny's development lagged 10 or 15 years because what I felt and who I was inside had no place in society.
It was all hushed up by the "nice and moral" people.

Waiting till later to discuss this as one of those 'naughty' subjects is bad because our earliest wiring is the hardest to rewire.
To this day I still struggling to shake the negative self-image instilled by this faux-morality.

That's why yesterday's NFL-Gay kiss live on TV was huge to me.
It wasn't just a kiss; it was a revolution, culturally speaking.

The NFL is a powerful symbol in our machismo male culture.
Fireworks of celebration went off in my head when I read that NFL members who tweeted to condemn the kiss were fined by the NFL.

Finally the kind of people who beat the shit out of me, physically and psychologically, for being gay 45 years ago are being disciplined AND it's all being broadcast to society that this shit is not morality, it's bigotry, and it has to stop!

IMO the people shocked and outraged by yesterday's kiss got exactly what they needed to help drag them out of the dark ages.

So because I choose not to have what I consider an age-appropriate discussion with my ELEMENTARY SCHOOL-AGE children, I am sending the message the homosexuality is taboo, etc.???? Interesting…. No one here even knows me, my children, my parenting style or my family and yet, I'm being judged as a parent. Again, interesting (and ironic in a thread about passing judgment).
This dialogue reminds me of a conversation that I had with a friend of mine when my kids were babies. I breastfed my children for 6 months each, but in public, I chose to breastfeed very discreetly (I covered myself with a blanket and nothing was ever exposed). My friend told me how it was my "job" as a breastfeeding mother to make breastfeeding normal/acceptable, etc. to the rest of the general public and therefore, I shouldn't breastfeed discreetly (I should nurse freely/uncovered in the middle of a restaurant, etc.). Just because I was a breastfeeding mom, does not mean that it was my job to normalize breastfeeding for the rest of the world. If that's your "cause" great, but it's not mine.
It is my job, however, to raise caring, loving, respectful, kind, polite, children and I feel that I'm doing that. My 8 year-old is grossed out by seeing a kiss in a Disney movie and yet I'm supposed to have a dialogue about homosexuality???? Again, each family should have the ability to decide when the timing is right to discuss certain subjects (without feeling like they are being judged for their decisions).
So, kenny, you can pick apart my posts all you want and highlight phrases like "things like homosexual relationships…" but in the end, only I will decide when I want to talk to my kids about adult relationships. I don't discuss (in detail) heterosexual relationships either at this stage in their lives. My son asked me just a few months ago where babies come from and my answer was the same: "we will discuss that when you're older" so your assumption about different treatment for straight/gay was incorrect (big surprise ).
As usual I feel that I need to add the part about nothing personal, no hard feelings, let's just agree to disagree, etc. so that people don't think that I'm all flared up over the discussion because I'm not. I appreciate the discussion - I just don't happen to agree with the fact that some people think that they can/should tell me how to parent my children

I love your approach and think that it is important for every parent to have the discussions they feel their children are ready for.

Personally, I feel that having a "discussion" about gay relationships makes them seem abnormal. Why should you talk any more about them than any other relationship? Let it be a normal part of life just like man/woman, married/divorced, black/white, etc. If you treat something as special and different then a kid will grow up as seeing it as different. If the idea is equality and being accepted as a normal part of life, then treat it just like other relationships.

 

[chemgirl]

I read parts of this threat to coworkers with kids over lunch and I thought their perspective added a bit to the conversation.

Same sex marriage has been legal here for over 10 years. That means that there are many same sex couples with children in the local school. Talk about "what family is" included same sex relationships at a classroom level and was reinforced at home.

It did get a bit confusing in second grade when they teach where babies come from. My friend said she had to explain sperm donors, ivf, surrogates, to a very curious seven year old. In the end it was fine and her daughter wants a surrogate for her future babies lol.

They saw the kiss on the news and didn't seem to really think anything of it.

There are issues, but they are mostly caused by other parents making comments or not allowing their kids to attend birthday parties at same sex couple's houses. The discrimination talk isn't a fun one.

 

[blackprophet]

Here's the kiss: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvY7KNLz0f4
No tongues.

Disgusting, or sweet and touching?

While this gay NFL kiss may upset some today it will go down as an historical moment, much like TV's first interracial kiss.
Today it's so not a big deal that the outrage Star Trek generated in 1968 now seems comical.

It's a struggle dragging along the dinosaurs, but gradually society improves.
Equality is a powerful idea.

This is a huge moment. That kiss broke a huge barrier, and to really grasp its significance you have to have played or been involved in sport.

It's a privileged to witness moment like these.

 

[momhappy]

I agree with TooPatient. We've kept everything very basic at this point (like with the preschool friend that had two mommies - we simply said that some families have two mommies). Turning it into a formal discussion can backfire on you too in some cases because it makes a non-issue become an issue. My kids have an awareness of different types of relationships, but we don't discuss details of any of them (and typically, they're not yet asking about those sorts of things outside of a few random questions like "where do babies come from?").

 

[packrat]

Monnie, I remember the about Ellen back in the day. I loved that show.

We are huge Roseanne fans, and I very vividly remember the kiss between her and Mariel Hemingway, and the freak out about Sandra Bernhard being on the show.

I saw on Star Trek's FB page a while back that they had almost had a gay character, I think not openly, but like...suggested? but just couldn't *quite* pull the trigger on it, years ago...it would have been on Next Generation. I don't know why, really..Ohura and Kirk kissing was awesome.

 

[monarch64]

Monnie, I remember the about Ellen back in the day. I loved that show.

We are huge Roseanne fans, and I very vividly remember the kiss between her and Mariel Hemingway, and the freak out about Sandra Bernhard being on the show.

I saw on Star Trek's FB page a while back that they had almost had a gay character, I think not openly, but like...suggested? but just couldn't *quite* pull the trigger on it, years ago...it would have been on Next Generation. I don't know why, really..Ohura and Kirk kissing was awesome.

I can't believe how close I was--the 20th anniversary of that episode was April 30! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Puppy_Episode
I totally remember Roseanne's kiss with Mariel, and Sandra Bernhard's role on the show. We are lucky to have grown up at a time when breaking through those barriers was cool. ETA: dang it, I thought that episode featured Ellen kissing another woman but it was actually her coming out. http://www.infoplease.com/entertainment/gays-in-pop-culture-timeline.html Anyway...

My next door neighbors on one side are a male couple. We hang out from time to time and exchange produce from our gardens. My kid is going to grow up with diversity and inclusive attitudes right from the start and nothing could make me happier.

 

[asscherisme]

It's really none of anyone's business how or when any of us chooses to talk to our kids about things like homosexual relationships.

Legally I may have no say in how you raise your kids, but I do have something to say about it.
You are forming tomorrows voters who can deny or give civil rights and equality to groups like gays.

You have the legal right to isolate and homeschool your kids to become Nazis or teach your daughters they can only get to heaven by being one of 15 wives serving one man.
Just expect disapproval for what leaks out of the privacy of your home.

A civilized society has standards.
Standards change, especially when it comes to civil rights being denied like women not being allowed to vote.
Gay used to be bad. Not any longer.

There are certainly age-appropriate graduation of details for discussions of romance and sex when talking to kids.
But I argue that discussing straight ones earlier than gay ones is harmful to your kids and to society.
It sends the message that gay is bad and straight is good.

That's why your, "… things like homosexual relationships" comment stood out.

Why different treatment for straight and gay?
(Must be a bad thing if mommy won't bring it up or answers my question with, "Well discuss THAT when you are old enough.)

This is how self-hatred and low self-esteem starts at an early age if your kids are gay.
If they are straight it's how the seed of homophobia is planted early on.
I speak from experience; it surely worked on me.
The romantic/sex part of Kenny's development lagged 10 or 15 years because what I felt and who I was inside had no place in society.
It was all hushed up by the "nice and moral" people.

Waiting till later to discuss this as one of those 'naughty' subjects is bad because our earliest wiring is the hardest to rewire.
To this day I still struggling to shake the negative self-image instilled by this faux-morality.

That's why yesterday's NFL-Gay kiss live on TV was huge to me.
It wasn't just a kiss; it was a revolution, culturally speaking.

The NFL is a powerful symbol in our machismo male culture.
Fireworks of celebration went off in my head when I read that NFL members who tweeted to condemn the kiss were fined by the NFL.

Finally the kind of people who beat the shit out of me, physically and psychologically, for being gay 45 years ago are being disciplined AND it's all being broadcast to society that this shit is not morality, it's bigotry, and it has to stop!

IMO the people shocked and outraged by yesterday's kiss got exactly what they needed to help drag them out of the dark ages.

I agree 100% Kenny. More than 100% if that's possible. I taught my kids from a very early age that love is love and taught them that gender is not an issue with love. I wouldn't let my kids do scouts because of the gay leader ban policy (they were upset at the time but as they got older were glad I stuck to my beliefs of equality) I remember checking out a book from the library when my now 18 year old was 5 about a kid with 2 mommies and my then father in law was over and was horrified about the book. I defended my position about what I was teaching my kids that straight/gay isn't an issue, you love who you love. That man is no longer my father in law (I'm divorced) but I still remember that fight with him even though it was over a decade ago.

I am so sorry you went through what you did growing up. That must have been awful. Growing up and figuring out who you are is hard enough without society telling you that you don't belong. .

One of my teenage kids has come out to me as gay and has expressed to me often that he is thankful for how I raised him and his siblings. When he told me my reaction was "I already knew" but I am glad you trust me to tell me yourself. His siblings were not surprised either and also expressed the same feeling as me. He is one of the best people I know and being gay doesn't change that. He was immensely relieved and I told him I am actually VERY proud that he is able to be who he is and feel comfortable in his own skin. Unfortunately though he does still need to be very careful at school and he has only felt comfortable telling his close friends.

He has watched the news for the past few years and is really happy how much things are progressing. I showed him that news story and the kiss and it was awesome seeing his reaction.

I will say that typically the kids/teenagers that are discriminatory come from homes where its learned behavior from that parents. Not always but often.

I do worry he will face discrimination when he goes to college next year. But I think him being comfortable in his own skin will hopefully help.

 

[ame]

It's really none of anyone's business how or when any of us chooses to talk to our kids about things like homosexual relationships.

Legally I may have no say in how you raise your kids, but I do have something to say about it.
You are forming tomorrows voters who can deny or give civil rights and equality to groups like gays.

You have the legal right to isolate and homeschool your kids to become Nazis or teach your daughters they can only get to heaven by being one of 15 wives serving one man.
Just expect disapproval for what leaks out of the privacy of your home.

A civilized society has standards.
Standards change, especially when it comes to civil rights being denied like women not being allowed to vote.
Gay used to be bad. Not any longer.

There are certainly age-appropriate graduation of details for discussions of romance and sex when talking to kids.
But I argue that discussing straight ones earlier than gay ones is harmful to your kids and to society.
It sends the message that gay is bad and straight is good.

That's why your, "… things like homosexual relationships" comment stood out.

Why different treatment for straight and gay?
(Must be a bad thing if mommy won't bring it up or answers my question with, "Well discuss THAT when you are old enough.)

This is how self-hatred and low self-esteem starts at an early age if your kids are gay.
If they are straight it's how the seed of homophobia is planted early on.
I speak from experience; it surely worked on me.
The romantic/sex part of Kenny's development lagged 10 or 15 years because what I felt and who I was inside had no place in society.
It was all hushed up by the "nice and moral" people.

Waiting till later to discuss this as one of those 'naughty' subjects is bad because our earliest wiring is the hardest to rewire.
To this day I still struggling to shake the negative self-image instilled by this faux-morality.

That's why yesterday's NFL-Gay kiss live on TV was huge to me.
It wasn't just a kiss; it was a revolution, culturally speaking.

The NFL is a powerful symbol in our machismo male culture.
Fireworks of celebration went off in my head when I read that NFL members who tweeted to condemn the kiss were fined by the NFL.

Finally the kind of people who beat the shit out of me, physically and psychologically, for being gay 45 years ago are being disciplined AND it's all being broadcast to society that this shit is not morality, it's bigotry, and it has to stop!

IMO the people shocked and outraged by yesterday's kiss got exactly what they needed to help drag them out of the dark ages.

And for those acting like he kissed his boyfriend "in public", they were in a private party. It was broadcast for the world, but where they were was private. Regardless of that, I have no issue with it, with him, with his sexuality or anyone else's. I think it's fantastic that he's comfortable in his own skin, and that he's HAPPY. People being overly concerned about how he's going to "be" in the locker room? You forget that he's "been" in the locker room for years at Mizzou, and he was an outstanding person there, with a team and teammates and staff and other students that LOVED him and supported him at every step. They didn't "leak" his "secret" because they didn't think his "secret" was theirs to "leak" and they didn't give a rip that he was there, he was their teammate and friend and they cared about him.

Dammit, now I hope the Rams stop being such a nightmare with him and the other new players hopefully all on the team. We could use some help.

 

[Maria D]

My daughter is a young woman now, but I would not have had a problem talking to her about something like Michael Sam's televised kiss, if she had wanted to know about it, when she was a small child. I'll tell you what WAS difficult - answering her questions about the Clinton/Lewinsky scandal when she was 5! I remember thinking, jeez, I can't have the news on while making dinner when the kid is around!

I do not feel that "we'll talk about that when you're older" is ever a satisfactory response to a child's curiosity. There is always an age appropriate response. My daughter was around three the first time she asked where babies come from. I didn't go into a long discussion about the human reproductive system, just gave as much true information that satisfied her curiosity. At some point, "baby grows in mommy's body" wasn't enough info - but why? how does it get there? - so I explained that it's caused by a special hug between mom and dad. She was fine with that for years.

As for homosexuality and my child, I've always operated on the premise that there was no way to know if she'd turn out gay or straight. I've never jokingly referred to a future husband or children or anything like that. Asscherisme, I think it's wonderful for your son and a testament to your parenting that he felt comfortable coming out. I wouldn't worry about college for him. As a high school teacher with a college age daughter, I really feel that this generation is so much more open and accepting and I think it's great!

 

[momhappy]

My daughter is a young woman now, but I would not have had a problem talking to her about something like Michael Sam's televised kiss, if she had wanted to know about it, when she was a small child. I'll tell you what WAS difficult - answering her questions about the Clinton/Lewinsky scandal when she was 5! I remember thinking, jeez, I can't have the news on while making dinner when the kid is around!

I do not feel that "we'll talk about that when you're older" is ever a satisfactory response to a child's curiosity. There is always an age appropriate response. My daughter was around three the first time she asked where babies come from. I didn't go into a long discussion about the human reproductive system, just gave as much true information that satisfied her curiosity. At some point, "baby grows in mommy's body" wasn't enough info - but why? how does it get there? - so I explained that it's caused by a special hug between mom and dad. She was fine with that for years.

As for homosexuality and my child, I've always operated on the premise that there was no way to know if she'd turn out gay or straight. I've never jokingly referred to a future husband or children or anything like that. Asscherisme, I think it's wonderful for your son and a testament to your parenting that he felt comfortable coming out. I wouldn't worry about college for him. As a high school teacher with a college age daughter, I really feel that this generation is so much more open and accepting and I think it's great!

If that worked for you, great, but I feel that there are topics suitable for kids and topics suitable for adults. Again, what might be "satisfactory" to one, may not be for another. I don't feel the need to explain things like reproduction to a young child and saying that it's a "special hug" isn't satisfactory to me either, so I guess we're even To each their own….

 

[Maria D]

My daughter is a young woman now, but I would not have had a problem talking to her about something like Michael Sam's televised kiss, if she had wanted to know about it, when she was a small child. I'll tell you what WAS difficult - answering her questions about the Clinton/Lewinsky scandal when she was 5! I remember thinking, jeez, I can't have the news on while making dinner when the kid is around!

I do not feel that "we'll talk about that when you're older" is ever a satisfactory response to a child's curiosity. There is always an age appropriate response. My daughter was around three the first time she asked where babies come from. I didn't go into a long discussion about the human reproductive system, just gave as much true information that satisfied her curiosity. At some point, "baby grows in mommy's body" wasn't enough info - but why? how does it get there? - so I explained that it's caused by a special hug between mom and dad. She was fine with that for years.

As for homosexuality and my child, I've always operated on the premise that there was no way to know if she'd turn out gay or straight. I've never jokingly referred to a future husband or children or anything like that. Asscherisme, I think it's wonderful for your son and a testament to your parenting that he felt comfortable coming out. I wouldn't worry about college for him. As a high school teacher with a college age daughter, I really feel that this generation is so much more open and accepting and I think it's great!

If that worked for you, great, but I feel that there are topics suitable for kids and topics suitable for adults. Again, what might be "satisfactory" to one, may not be for another. I don't feel the need to explain things like reproduction to a young child and saying that it's a "special hug" isn't satisfactory to me either, so I guess we're even To each their own….

It's not a question of what worked for me, but what works for the child. I wouldn't expect you, as an adult, to be satisfied with the notion of "special hug" but it's a good euphemism for intercourse for a small child.

I believe that when a child is told that the thing they are curious about *right now* can't be discussed until some indeterminate future date, it effectively let's the child know they picked the wrong person to open up to.

I'm completely confident in my beliefs and parenting style and not in a contest with you momhappy - not sure what you mean by "I guess we're even."

 

[momhappy]

My daughter is a young woman now, but I would not have had a problem talking to her about something like Michael Sam's televised kiss, if she had wanted to know about it, when she was a small child. I'll tell you what WAS difficult - answering her questions about the Clinton/Lewinsky scandal when she was 5! I remember thinking, jeez, I can't have the news on while making dinner when the kid is around!

I do not feel that "we'll talk about that when you're older" is ever a satisfactory response to a child's curiosity. There is always an age appropriate response. My daughter was around three the first time she asked where babies come from. I didn't go into a long discussion about the human reproductive system, just gave as much true information that satisfied her curiosity. At some point, "baby grows in mommy's body" wasn't enough info - but why? how does it get there? - so I explained that it's caused by a special hug between mom and dad. She was fine with that for years.

As for homosexuality and my child, I've always operated on the premise that there was no way to know if she'd turn out gay or straight. I've never jokingly referred to a future husband or children or anything like that. Asscherisme, I think it's wonderful for your son and a testament to your parenting that he felt comfortable coming out. I wouldn't worry about college for him. As a high school teacher with a college age daughter, I really feel that this generation is so much more open and accepting and I think it's great!

If that worked for you, great, but I feel that there are topics suitable for kids and topics suitable for adults. Again, what might be "satisfactory" to one, may not be for another. I don't feel the need to explain things like reproduction to a young child and saying that it's a "special hug" isn't satisfactory to me either, so I guess we're even To each their own….

It's not a question of what worked for me, but what works for the child. I wouldn't expect you, as an adult, to be satisfied with the notion of "special hug" but it's a good euphemism for intercourse for a small child.

I believe that when a child is told that the thing they are curious about *right now* can't be discussed until some indeterminate future date, it effectively let's the child know they picked the wrong person to open up to.

I'm completely confident in my beliefs and parenting style and not in a contest with you momhappy - not sure what you mean by "I guess we're even."

The "I guess we're even" part was a joke I didn't mean to imply that parenting is some sort of competition. I simply meant that we all have different parenting styles and what might work for some, doesn't work for others. My experience has been that vague answers like "a special hug" often lead to more questions. Eventually, the questions become more and more detailed, which ultimately leads to the "we will discuss it when you're older response" that should have just been given in the first place. I don't believe that holding off on what I consider "adult" conversations sends the child a message that they've picked the wrong person to open up to, but again, we all parent differently and that's fine

 

[purplesparklies]

So, this thread had me thinking. I brought this up with my eldest son, age 12, this afternoon. Asked him if anyone at school was talking about Michael Sam. He had no idea what I was talking about. He wanted to know why I was asking. I told him that Michael Sam is a football player who was on the news recently. Still nothing. I asked him if he has ever heard the term gay. He said he has heard it at school but admitted that he did not know what it means and he could not remember who used it and how. I did my best to explain. Now, keep in mind, my son is a very "young" 12. He is mostly oblivious and he is on the immature side, as boys often are. I say that lovingly but it is true, partly because he has been very sheltered. I brought up a family from his previous school. The girl was cared for by her aunts. One was her aunt and the other was her aunt's partner. As I suspected, it never occurred to him that they were a couple. If there isn't obvious PDA, he just assumes people are friends or relatives.

So, I did my best to explain. I explained what it means. I explained that people have strong opinions on this issue and states are deciding if they recognize gay marriage. I let him know that our religion does not support gay relationships but that our family respects and loves everyone. I told him that I do not believe anyone should ever be treated as less than perfect and certainly not for something over which they have no control. He listened and accepted all of it as though it was no big thing to him.

I try to present both sides of any issue to my kids when there is a pronounced divide in society. I present each side's position. I explain my opinion and why I feel the way I feel. I present the position of our church, which is occasionally different than my personal position. Then, I let them decide where they will fall on an issue. Sometimes they agree with me and other times they do not but I am always proud of the way they each consider issues thoughtfully.

I hope I handled this discussion well and I know he gave it some thought as he came to me hours later and asked if gay couples can have babies. Looks like a more detailed discussion on a whole other subject is in order. Yikes. I told him that we will discuss all of this more tomorrow as it was bedtime. Truthfully, I just needed time to figure out what the heck I am going to tell him. I think I have the only kids who have never asked a single question about where babies come from. Never. OY.

 

[momhappy]

So, this thread had me thinking. I brought this up with my eldest son, age 12, this afternoon. Asked him if anyone at school was talking about Michael Sam. He had no idea what I was talking about. He wanted to know why I was asking. I told him that Michael Sam is a football player who was on the news recently. Still nothing. I asked him if he has ever heard the term gay. He said he has heard it at school but admitted that he did not know what it means and he could not remember who used it and how. I did my best to explain. Now, keep in mind, my son is a very "young" 12. He is mostly oblivious and he is on the immature side, as boys often are. I say that lovingly but it is true, partly because he has been very sheltered. I brought up a family from his previous school. The girl was cared for by her aunts. One was her aunt and the other was her aunt's partner. As I suspected, it never occurred to him that they were a couple. If there isn't obvious PDA, he just assumes people are friends or relatives.

So, I did my best to explain. I explained what it means. I explained that people have strong opinions on this issue and states are deciding if they recognize gay marriage. I let him know that our religion does not support gay relationships but that our family respects and loves everyone. I told him that I do not believe anyone should ever be treated as less than perfect and certainly not for something over which they have no control. He listened and accepted all of it as though it was no big thing to him.

I try to present both sides of any issue to my kids when there is a pronounced divide in society. I present each side's position. I explain my opinion and why I feel the way I feel. I present the position of our church, which is occasionally different than my personal position. Then, I let them decide where they will fall on an issue. Sometimes they agree with me and other times they do not but I am always proud of the way they each consider issues thoughtfully.

I hope I handled this discussion well and I know he gave it some thought as he came to me hours later and asked if gay couples can have babies. Looks like a more detailed discussion on a whole other subject is in order. Yikes. I told him that we will discuss all of this more tomorrow as it was bedtime. Truthfully, I just needed time to figure out what the heck I am going to tell him. I think I have the only kids who have never asked a single question about where babies come from. Never. OY.

It sounds like you handled it well That's what I was referring to when I said that generalized responses often lead to more detailed questions/discussions, but it sounds like your son is at an age where a more detailed conversation about such things is more age-appropriate. I'm sure that you'll handle the next round of questions just fine - at least you gave yourself some time to sort it out in your own head before jumping into the conversation.

 

[AGBF]

I think I have the only kids who have never asked a single question about where babies come from. Never.

Nah. I had a super innocent daughter like that. I had to volunteer information. She was adopted and knew I got "the phone call" when she was born. We used to play Mama Lion and Baby Lion in the jungle. This was when she was 4 and 5 and 6. We'd play this snuggling on my bed. Then it would be time for her to be born and I'd "get the call". She thought everyone was adopted. Eventually she asked me how mothers of children who were not adopted knew when their babies were going to be born, since they didn't get "the phone call". I told her their bodies gave them a signal. That was all she wanted to know that day.

Deb/AGBF

 

[kenny]

Age-appropriate info is easy to say, but how is a parent to decide what info is appropriate at what age?
Honest and sincere question.

Obviously kids vary and one may be ready at 6 for info Y whereas another kid may not be ready for info Y at age 6.

And if you give info earlier than appropriate what happens to the kid?
Damage, or just lack of comprehension?

If damage, how so?

Or is this more about the comfort level of the parent, and not so much about what may harm a kid?

 

[Maria D]

Age-appropriate info is easy to say, but how is a parent to decide what info is appropriate at what age?
Honest and sincere question.

Obviously kids vary and one may be ready at 6 for info Y whereas another kid may not be ready for info Y at age 6.

And if you give info earlier than appropriate what happens to the kid?
Damage, or just lack of comprehension?

If damage, how so?

Or is this more about the comfort level of the parent, and not so much about what may harm a kid?

I found it very easy to just follow my child's lead. I don't think you can harm a child by giving them correct information that *just* answers their question. I mean, if they are wondering about something, then they are old enough to have thought about it so how can information be harmful? If it leads to more questions, then I feel they are ready for more detailed answers. When my child was 3, "it grows in mommy's body" was enough. Later, it was where? (Because her friend told her there was a baby growing in her mommy's belly.) That was worrisome to my kid - could a baby just grow in your belly? No, correct information time, women have a uterus that a baby can grow in, but some people just say "belly" because it looks like you have a big belly when a baby is growing in there. And that sufficed.

It was a while after that before we got to the special hug and even more time before the talk about Daddy's sperm swimming!

I was never uncomfortable about this kind of talk and in my experience the younger my child was, the easier it was, because she didn't think of it as sexual. But just because *I* am completely comfortable with discussing it doesn't mean I would launch into a protracted discussion about sex with my kid just for the sake of it. To this day I don't do that with my daughter. So to answer your question, I think a parent should decide based on the questions their child is asking. On the other hand, if they get to an age where they need to know but still haven't asked - like, say a young girl who is approaching puberty but has never asked about anything related to menstruation or a boy who is showing an interest in sexuality - then I think it's only responsible to do what Deb did and start volunteering information.

 

[chrono]

I found it very easy to just follow my child's lead. I don't think you can harm a child by giving them correct information that *just* answers their question. I mean, if they are wondering about something, then they are old enough to have thought about it so how can information be harmful? If it leads to more questions, then I feel they are ready for more detailed answers. When my child was 3, "it grows in mommy's body" was enough. Later, it was where? (Because her friend told her there was a baby growing in her mommy's belly.) That was worrisome to my kid - could a baby just grow in your belly? No, correct information time, women have a uterus that a baby can grow in, but some people just say "belly" because it looks like you have a big belly when a baby is growing in there. And that sufficed.

It was a while after that before we got to the special hug and even more time before the talk about Daddy's sperm swimming!

I was never uncomfortable about this kind of talk and in my experience the younger my child was, the easier it was, because she didn't think of it as sexual. But just because *I* am completely comfortable with discussing it doesn't mean I would launch into a protracted discussion about sex with my kid just for the sake of it. To this day I don't do that with my daughter. So to answer your question, I think a parent should decide based on the questions their child is asking. On the other hand, if they get to an age where they need to know but still haven't asked - like, say a young girl who is approaching puberty but has never asked about anything related to menstruation or a boy who is showing an interest in sexuality - then I think it's only responsible to do what Deb did and start volunteering information.

I follow Maria's principle on this. I follow the child's lead; you'll know the mental maturity of the child. One might be oblivious and don't care whilst another is very curious. I always answer truthfully but without sexual details, unless the child has reached puberty which he/she needs to know all this anyway! Even then, the topic should be approached carefully to make sure it doesn't come off as something shameful or glorified.

 

[momhappy]

Yes, the term "age-appropriate" is different for each child. I, too, follow my children's lead. For example, we have a very large walk-in shower and when my kids were young, my husband or I would sometimes just throw them in the shower with us (we are pretty open about nudity). We have sons and daughters so we wondered at what age the showering may no longer be age-appropirate (in terms of a father showering with his daughter or mother showering with son). One day, my DH said that father/daughter showers were over because she looked over at him, pointed, and started asking detailed questions about his male parts (vs. her female parts). The same thing happened with my son not long after (he started asking me questions in the shower about my body vs. his). It's when it started to become slightly awkward that we knew it was not longer age-appropriate. You follow the child's lead and learn as you go.