I am going to scream.

[rainbowtrout]

I am at the end of ideas here. DB just came back from his BCG interview, which he absolutely *nailed.* He networked with a bunch of people. He now has an offer for an interview at MaKenzie and one at Baine. He had a blast. He loves business. He obsesses about it. He LIKES IT. He wants to change the way hospitals run, he dreams about it and gets up and writes down ideas about it. He wants an MD/MBA ultimately and to run hospitals.

He is depressed because, and I swear to god I am not making this up, he thinks that working in business is selling out because:

"everything I have considered doing up until now involved changing the world with a huge intellectual idea."

I love him. I do. He is also incredibly smart and sometimes incredibly arrogant. I do not know how to make it any clearer that CEO''s have more world-changing ability than your average academic. I know, I spend all my time with acadmics, I love it, its my thing. But it''s not the be-all and end-all of importnat things in life.


I am just at the end of my rope. His friends come over and go on about how working for business is selling your soul and all I can think is hmmmmm, someone never had to put food on the table. Seriously, it is honest work and it can help people.

Am I totally cracked? I am willing to be supportive but this is driving me crazy with him wanting to do five different dreams and I can only support so many at a time!!!!!

 

[rainbowtrout]

Oh, and I forgot the best part. he went through his movies and decided not to watch Thomas Crown because, and again I quote:

"Pierce Brosman is only so sexy in that movie because he has so much money from business. I can''t watch that movie."

If I was wondering about his orientation, now I know.

 

[FireGoddess]

But Rene Russo is buck naked in that movie for minutes and minutes on end! And as a man, he still won''t watch it? LOL. Maybe he doesn''t know.

 

[Mara]

hahaha...sorry i'm sure you don't think it's funny but it is. he sounds like such a MAN right there in your post.

money makes me get up and go to work in the morning. means to an end...not everyone feels that way but i never had any big drive to change the world. you need money to eat and a roof over your head etc. for me what life is about happens outside of the workplace, working at a job (whatever job) makes other good things possible.

 

[firebirdgold]

Date: 3/24/2006 7:11:20 PM
Author: rainbowtrout
Oh, and I forgot the best part. he went through his movies and decided not to watch Thomas Crown because, and again I quote:


''Pierce Brosman is only so sexy in that movie because he has so much money from business. I can''t watch that movie.''

If I was wondering about his orientation, now I know.

oookaay. That''s just odd.

You can think about how to change the world... Or you can just go do it. Ideas rarely change the way the world and business works, getting your hands dirty can change the way things work. Of course it''s a lot easier to keep your lofty ideals when you''re not banging them against reality.

My sister has always wanted to change the world. She realized that academia was not the path for her, but she still concentrates on working with non-profit organizations. It makes her feel good about herself.
Maybe there''s a similar compromise for your bf?

 

[AmberGretchen]

This sounds so much like my FI...we''re in a similar situation because for now at least, I''m in academia in a world-changing type of field (AIDS Research), but I think its important to realize exactly what you said, that just because you''re not starving in a shack to work for the Peace Corps there are lots of other ways to change the world and make an impact outside the traditional, well-recognized ways.

Also, if you are not happy doing what you are doing, then its no good anyway - if that is what your boyfriend is passionate about and what will make him happy then that is an excellent choice for what to do - there are always ways to make the world better within a given career (especially hospital management!!), its just a question of finding them.

 

[rainbowtrout]

oi.....

Yeah, Rene Russo is hot in that movie. Unfort. she looks disturbingly like my mom and thus I can''t watch the naked scenes. it''s just too too wierd.


Anyway, the poor guy is just ripping himself up about this. I can''t lash out at him and tell him he is being silly and arrogant, so I am bitching to you (thank you!!!!!)


I think he is afraid that he will become like his dad or something. Also he''s been lucky enough so far that he hasn''t had to come up against the hard realization most of us come to in, um, kindergarten??---that we might not, in fact, make some huge differance in the world. Imagine that hitting you at 22, ouch. I''m trying to be patient.

I did break down today about how it wasn''t wrong for me to like the idea of having enough money to, say, give it away and fund someone''s career at the ballet or build a building at a university or sponsor a student or something. I refuse to feel guilty for that! You CAN do good things with money, damnit. And there is nothing wrong with some luxuries, either.

 

[decodelighted]

Date: 3/24/2006 9:25:46 PM
Author: rainbowtrout
Anyway, the poor guy is just ripping himself up about this. he''s been lucky enough so far that he hasn''t had to come up against the hard realization most of us come to in, um, kindergarten??---that we might not, in fact, make some huge differance in the world.

Well ... I admire his desire to make a huge difference in the world! Hospitals & heathcare would certainly be good places to start.

Here are a few trite themes that might come in handy:

Great journeys start with a single step

You learn more from mistakes than perfection

There''s time in life to do so many things, and every experience helps you in ways you can''t know at the time. Even "business". What you''d learn in the biz world could end up helping you organize clinics in Africa??

The wisest men know how much they have left to learn.

If you don''t like a job, you don''t have to stay there forever.

Hope they help!

 

[Rhapsody]

My philosophy has always been that you can make more of a difference changing things from the inside than standing on the outside lobbying and trying to convince other people to actually do the changing.

Wanting to make a living is not selling out. You can help someone and be poor or you can help people and make some money. I''ll take option 2! He''s obviously not in it for the money, so I think the existential crisis can be shelved. I''m not sure where this strict dichotomy between "doing good" and "making money/being in business" came from. Seems ridiculous to me.

I have a friend who is a social worker, works with abused children. She told me that if her husband didn''t make as much money as he did she never would have been able to pursue the path she did because she just wouldn''t have been able to support herself. Good intentions don''t fix the world, most problems require money.

 

[rainbowtrout]

I finally confronted the friend who has been needling him about taking a job in business.


"COnsulting maximizes profits. That is a bad thing and hurts people without regard for their lives. It''s not something I want any of my friends doing"

THEN she said "I have no idea what you mean about needing to lay off with the comments, I don''t make any."

Right then, apparently she was talking to him online about how "Oh...it''s not THAT evil." Which is exactly how DB interpreted it.

Blah. I''m a bit worn out by the whole shebang. I am pushing for this a little bc I think he will enjoy it the most, but I''m just going to relax about it for the time being. Hopefully he doesn''t get all upset again.

 

[blodthecat]

But surely, on a personal level, we don''t define ourselves by the job we do.

We as individuals are no more important than anyone else on this planet. I have worked in hospitals for a long time, but I am a tiny little cogg in a huge wheel. In a hospital the cleaning staff are just as important as the CEO (probably even more so) think about it!

I really can understand why you are so frustrate with him. He needs to put his ego in a box for a while, and re-evaluate who he really is.

Not everyone is ''changing the world'' in the work place. Some do that in their own time, unpaid!

I really hope you can bring him back to reality!

Blod

 

[Mannequin]

Your DB sounds like he has his heart in the right place, but needs to sit down and decide what direction he really wants to take with his ideas. Maybe you can help him sort out his thoughts and help him figure out what he truly wants to achieve. He shouldn''t be shying away from something that could make him money while allowing him to pursue his dream of making change while helping others. You have described how dedicated he is towards this field (writing things down, dreaming of future change, etc.). With the interviews he has done or scheduled, it sounds like there is an amazing opportunity for him to use his efforts and talents in a career that will maximize his ability to affect lives positively. If he becomes wealthy in the process, then, as you said, he has the potential to help countless others by donating to funds and charities. I would be sure to emphasize this in the conversations you will have with him as these interviews go on.

You know, he''s actually in the right place to make huge changes if he is looking into hospitals. The U.S. will have so many people needing health services in the coming decade or so due to a large percentage of the population moving into later life. Japan is actually scrambling right now to build human sized robots that can help care for their elderly, because while they are in the same situation as we are here, they have a much smaller proportion of younger people going into medicine who could be future caretakers. If he is looking to make a difference, whether it is with one intellectual idea or ten thousand of them, then he is on target with his projected career choice.

 

[rainbowtrout]

I'm trying for the subtle influence, but he blew up at me one day and said that he was afraid he would end up married to someone who lived off her husband's money. I think he believes now that I honestly think this is a good option for him.

But I am still trying to subtly make my point...just stopped talking about the fact that not being poor might be nice for awhile.

Equestrienne, you are right on. He DOES need to sort through his ideas, and he is having fits about giving up one thing to get another. I will not scream at him that he needs to face reality, I won't (she says firmly to herself)

 

[Mannequin]

style="WIDTH: 99%; HEIGHT: 45px">Date: 3/25/2006 8:26:40 AM
Author: rainbowtrout
I''m trying for the subtle influence, but he blew up at me one day and said that he was afraid he would end up married to someone who lived off her husband''s money. I think he believes now that I honestly think this is a good option for him.

But I am still trying to subtly make my point...just stopped talking about the fact that not being poor might be nice for awhile.

Equestrienne, you are right on. He DOES need to sort through his ideas, and he is having fits about giving up one thing to get another. I will not scream at him that he needs to face reality, I won''t (she says firmly to herself)

Just clarifying: He is worried that you want to just kick back and let him be the breadwinner? If that is not the case, and I am guessing it isn''t and that you have a job/career path you are pursuing for yourself, then he needs to know this. There is nothing wrong with having money. If he happens to get into a career that makes him a lot of it, then he has so many more options with his future. Trust funds for children and grandchildren, sponsorships and donations to community organizations and national services, etc. Perhaps at some point you may not have to work because he is earning enough to allow that, but you don''t necessarily have to give up your job and your own personal career goals if you don''t want to. Money should not be a focus here, because obviously he will be able to have more than he is used to having if he takes one of these jobs.

I am 23 and I am a first year middle school teacher. I have my own apartment and pay my own bills. I have no credit card debt and no student loans to pay off. I have never been out on my own before and I am surviving. I am getting ready to start my Masters this summer. My BF is finishing law school this May, and once he is hired, he will likely be going into a firm starting out at twice the pay I currently receive. My BF jokes that he wants this huge mansion one day so he can show off how "bling bling" he is to everyone, and that he wants to make me into a kept woman. As we get further into our life together and continue working, I will top out on the teaching payscale before he stops having earning potential. Does this mean I am going to quit education and lie around the house, watching "The Price is Right" and wating bon-bons all day? NO. I love what I do, and teaching is the career path that I want to be on for the next 25 years. I am not going to just up and leave the classroom because I don''t need the money. I am going to stay because I love what I do. If we end up in a nice house and drive nice cars and take vacations to exotic places one day, then that''s great. Life becomes more comfortable, that''s all.

 

[rainbowtrout]

Oh, I''m agreeing with you here. It''s not so much that he worries about ME as much as I think living in the deep south for his whole life with people telling him he would support some happy woman someday got to him. he assured me he doesn''t think I as a person will do that he just has this irrational fear.
Of course, the fact that he knows its irrational doesn''t hurt my feelings a whole lot less. He has issues with his family being manipulative with money and people have told him before that my literature major is just an excuse for an M.R.S. degree. Of course he got angry and defended me but I think on some level it worried him, which both worries me and pisses me off. I''m the one with the prestigious fellowship and admission to grad school here, buddy...but I will top out, if I am very very lucky, at MAYBE 100k a year. Now I think that''s plenty of money but whatever...he doesn''t really.

Does it wierd me out sometimes that he could make more? Yes...but I have faith he''ll deal with it well and I KNOW I''m not becoming some sort of kept woman. I''m really hoping this is just a stress induced phase bc he hasn''t shown this sort of money wierdness before. last week he got mad because he graphed our grocery money over the last 2 years and found I had slowly spend 40 more dollars a week--because (gasp) we never eat out any more, idiot! And then there was the thing with telling me I always pick expensive restaurants...I''m getting a little wierded out over here.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 3/24/2006 9:25:46 PM
Author: rainbowtrout


Also he''s been lucky enough so far that he hasn''t had to come up against the hard realization most of us come to in, um, kindergarten??---that we might not, in fact, make some huge difference in the world. Imagine that hitting you at 22, ouch. I''m trying to be patient.

Some never do come to that realization. Fortunately, not many seem truly disappointed for not having succeeded changing the world

At 22, some guys are still such kids!

You know what? Consulting is one of the best cures for world-changing illusions I know of: be it for the private sector, non-profits or the church. Only wish someone had told me that before.

An academic career would encourage sophisticated day dreaming on the big picture at nausea, but not when worldly concerns are at stake at all (depends on discipline, I''d guess). I am sorry for the poor guy - if he gets to work in healthcare consulting - it may make for a super harsh awakening like many other areas of consulting wouldn''t.

My 2c

 

[Mannequin]

Ah, relatives...

The #1 thing that I have taken to heart out of all my mother''s advice over the years is that prior experiences and past history do not and should not necessarily dictate what happens in the future. His family appears to think that he is supposed to put you up for life with one of these jobs and he doesn''t want to? Then he doesn''t have to! It''s easier said than done, of course, but he needs to make up his own mind about what he wants to do and get the job first before he even needs to begin worrying about your future financial situation. If your BF is irrationally worried about his family and their ideas on money, then he needs to put that aside and focus what he wants his relationship with YOU to be like. You two do not need to stress out over finances if it isn''t necessary.

The grocery graph is disturbing. If he put that much time and effort into charting a difference of forty bucks, he may need a chill pill.

If you two live together like I am assuming, and share finances so that he knows what is spent in the household, then the one thing that comes to mind when you mention the money obsession is that maybe he wants to be sure he has enough funds available for a future purchase, i.e. ring? I know my guy is all about visiting his family around lunchtime right now, so that he doesn''t have to shell out for a sandwich here and there...

I am hoping this is all helpful in some way, rainbowtrout.

I guess I am really fired up on this subject right now because I am hearing somewhat similar things right now from my friend and her boyfriend. They both show a lack of direction at the moment. My friend graduated from college three years ago like me and rather than look into the teaching jobs I sent her all the time, she got a job working at a golf course as a ladies locker room attendant. She decided she wanted to do something else and after visiting another friend overseas, she made a decision to try teaching finally. She is coming back from a year of teaching English in Japan and has no idea what she is going to do next with her relatively useless Dance/French teaching degree because she can''t teach English here without more schooling. Her BF helps manage a winery with his dad and his family is fairly well off, but he doesn''t want any of that. He really just wants to use his degree in English to be a professional writer. Rather than go out and find a newspaper or something to write for, he is going to go into seminary school on a full-ride this year, not because he wants to become a pastor in a community, but because he thinks he will have more opportunities to write. WTF??? *face-palm*

They dated in college and split up before senior year ended, then reconnected and began dating again before she left on her year in Japan. Being good friends with her, I would have liked to have had input on some of this as it was going on. Of course, I get consulted about these things way after the fact usually, and she tends to be so wishy washy and non-commital about anything that she has to take someone else''s lead. The two of them keep finding opportunities to avoid making serious adult decisions about careers, and it drives me nuts. I try to make reasonable suggestions on job possibilities and such, and I get shrugged off. Neither one of them is practical enough for me, and I sound like a huge b*tch if I share any of this with her. I want to be happy for my friend and I try to be excited about this relationship and the things she chooses to do with her life, but I feel like I can''t be her cheerleader on this, especially when it is starting to seem like they may end up being these bohemian-missionary types who choose to live in a box and survive on vending machine packs of Cheez-its.

 

[rainbowtrout]

Ana, the thing is I DO think he could make a big difference. I support that. I just don't necessarily feel that academia is for everybody and its not actually like he was even considering a career in it...he doesn't want grad school or the like. he just likes the idea of "the university" in an abstract way.


I am in favor of dreams. World changing illusions are fine. I just don't think that he has to give them up by going into business...I mean, one of my college friends directly has no debt bc the former CEO of Merk sponsored her undergrad. That's helping people. I mean, what I am I going to do, find a new reading for Lolita that changes world politics?

The last thing I want is for his dreams to be beaten out of him, sorry if it came across that way. I just don't agree that taking a job in consulting for two years to get a leg up in the business world is selling your soul and giving up your dreams....it is on the path to what he wants to do in the end, he just wants to make that differance RIGHT NOW.

I also do understand the shit he is going through, which is why I am bitching here and not to him. He knows my feelings on the matter but just because in my snarkier moments I want to shake him into facing "reality" doesn't mean I would actually do it.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 3/25/2006 10:21:29 AM
Author: rainbowtrout


The last thing I want is for his dreams to be beaten out of him, sorry if it came across that way. I just don't agree that taking a job in consulting for two years to get a leg up in the business world is selling your soul and giving up your dreams....it is on the path to what he wants to do in the end, he just wants to make that difference RIGHT NOW.

I also do understand the shit he is going through, which is why I am bitching here and not to him. He knows my feelings on the matter but just because in my snarkier moments I want to shake him into facing 'reality' doesn't mean I would actually do it.

You are kinder than I am, obviously!

The idea that 2 years of consulting can ruin one's character or dreams does sound very silly. IMO, you are so right to be slightly (?) annoyed bu also understanding

The part with world changing illusions being beaten out by health care consulting, has something to do with my own experience... and no, I sure don't wish that sort of thing to anyone else.


Maybe you could tell him half joking that working in the private sector for a while would be good for ... knowing the enemy!

 

[rainbowtrout]

He says the people in healthcare consulting that truly suck are pharma...apparently it used to be better than it is now, but mostly you try to extract the most money out of patients/customers with little regard for much else. He actually is considering asking not to work on pharma cases. problem is that means no healthcare cases at all since it is most of their business.

what was your experiance with it val? I''m curious to know.

 

[decodelighted]

RT,

I think he''s going through some growing pains that have absolutely nothing to do with you. His fears about money & responsibility etc are leading him to lash out & blame etc (mean, bad companies -- lazy trophy wives) as he digests his OWN expectations & as some cold, hard truths dawn on him.

"Hmm - got to get a job"
"Hope I can live up to all those expectations"

His "training phase" of life, full of "potential" etc is about to be tested & tested HARD. He''s gonna have to start delivering on all that training, education, wisdom he''s been getting. In my experience college was such a cocoon where everyone feels all special & priveledged. Entry level (even management) jobs are about being submissive, learning, realizing how much more there is to learn & how sheltered you''ve been.

Very confusing, complicated time - that leads many people to use their "I''m too good for this" defenses ... sometimes, tragically, FOR YEARS. Hopefully he''s smarter than that and will thrive once he makes the leap into something, ANYTHING but his own head.

Oof. Good luck w/this. Keep telling yourself IT''S NOT ABOUT ME, IT''S NOT ABOUT ME!!!

Deco

 

[rainbowtrout]

Thanks Deco, that actually helped a lot (repeats to self: its not about me!) Seriously, was helpful.

There should be a corresponding book to he''s Not That Into You called It''s Just Not About You!

 

[monarch64]

Rainbowtrout--I read somewhere that men like to analyze everything about money/business (as evidenced by your honey''s grocery graph), while women obviously like to analyze relationships, emotions, etc. It seems he''s using you as a sounding board for his fears, realizations, dreams, which is awesome. If he''s gotta stress out about something, at least he''s stressing out over the fact that he''s worried he has to make a choice between being a run of the mill breadwinner or a change the world type of guy. At 28, I still go through phases when I get bummed about the fact that I have a 4 year degree in fashion merchandising, and thought when I was 18 that I could help the world through fashion, ha ha! To remedy those bummed-out feelings, I participate in fundraisers or charity work (I''m doing a walking marathon in June for breast cancer), to satisfy my need to make a difference. My feelings are, if we all take responsibility to make small steps towards positive changes, we are doing our part to help humanity as a whole. I think some of us "dreamers" struggle with the realization that we won''t change the world, but we have to also realize that we are only one little human in the billions that exist now and can only do so much.

I think you are being very supportive by venting here and not taking out the brunt of your frustrations on your man. And it is nice to know that he does feel a sense of responsibility for making the world a better place, and trying to avoid what he considers "selfish" attitudes or actions.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 3/25/2006 4:13:43 PM
Author: rainbowtrout


what was your experience with it val? I'm curious to know.

For once, consulting left me with the conviction that our work was mostly used to justify insider's decisions - for better, or for worse. Initially, working as an analyst this wasn't very obvious at all, I am missing the good old days when I did not have to care about who was I proving right. Only had one memorable project in healthcare, and it was not the most pleasant - as in this field much of the work tends to have a nagging moral bent. It should be easier to deal with commercial issues, perhaps - merchandising doesn't really induce cold sweat as dealing with the administration of disaster relief funds, for example. The less crucial the project, the more freedom, of course. And this is why I kept a foot in academic research - there is allot more freedom to speak up your mind, with the understanding that this is ineffective anyway.

 

[rainbowtrout]

*deep breath*

Allright, things have calmed down a little. He totally broke down one night and now he seems a bit better. Also my FBIL is here to stay for the week, and not having time to focus on his issues/spending time with his brother seems to be helping him a little.

We also had a talk about his mother''s semi-abusive behavior lately. He doesn''t have an option other than working right now since he chose not to apply to med school this round---yet every SINGLE time she calls she finds some way to go off on a rant about how he is ruining his life, will never get into medical school, and should just give up already and accept that he will be a low level businessman for the rest of his life. She gets into cycles with little bitter rants like this--for awhile every time she called *I* was the thing that was going to ruin his life.

He promised me the very next time she does it he is telling her this is NOT acceptable. At all. If only because I can''t handle him breaking down again, its unnerving when they do that too often.

 

[rainbowtrout]

Also, the flip side of his wierd graphing of the grocery expenses was that today he spent two hours helping me put together three spreadsheets to figure out if I should consolidate my student loans

Thank you guys for all your help and advice on what might be going on--I am such a literal person and sometimes have a hard time reading "behind" what people say in relationships (odd given as I analyze subtext for a living) !