I just need to vent.....

[decodelighted]

I don''t know all the ins & outs of your relationship, but from the way you describe it ... financially dependent w/o commitment ... I''d feel like a "kept woman".

Does it seem at all hypocritical to you that you both "worry what others will think" about not being invited to a huge Chinese wedding ... but NOT TO WORRY about what people think about

a. staying with someone 10 years w/o committment
b. "living in sin" (not my view but likely that of more conservative folk)

Doesn''t add up to me. Too many excuses. Too many #s/%s and not enough love/committment/compassion/communication/compromise/acceptance of life as an imperfect science at best.

 

[ilovesparkles]

Ok so I''m too impatient to read through the entire forum thread, so we know I could never last through a 10 year engagement lol

But seriously,I know you have said money is an issue but why can he not simply buy the ring so you have it on your finger! I just don''t get that! So maybe its another 5 years until the wedding, but I don''t think its so much to ask to have a ring on your hand and to have him get down on one knee and ask you to be his wife!

 

[Madam Bijoux]

Just a note regarding common law marriage: Living together for x number of years doesn''t automatically establish a common law marriage. The basic law about common-law marriage is:
In some States a valid marriage may be created without a formal ceremony; these marriages are called common-law marriages. Individual States'' laws may vary slightly regarding the requirement to establish a common-law marriage; generally, the requirements are:
the marriage is entered into by mutual consent of the parties to become husband and wife from that time on and is not solemnized by a ceremony;
the parties must have the intent to marry;
the parties must consider themselves husband and wife;
both parties must be legally capable of entering into a valid marriage;
the marriage must be contracted in a State where common-law marriages are recognized;
and
in some States, the parties must cohabit and hold themselves out to the public as husband and wife.

 

[Caribou]

Date: 2/20/2006 5:10:53 PM
Author: MelissaSue
I was just talking to my fiance about a similar situation. We were with a couple friends of his and I couldn''t remember if they were engaged or married or what.. And when I asked my fiance he said ''They''re not engaged yet.. but they will be when they have the money''.. and I honestly DO NOT understand this point of view..Now, to be fair it was never really an issue for us, because our parents are paying for the wedding.. and I inherited my e-ring stone (yeah, we''re lucky ducks!).... but I was telling my fiance that if we ddin''t have the money for a wedding, we''d just have a small wedding.. just us and our parents and siblings.. no big reception or anything fancy.. Just maybe a pretty dress is all I''d really want.. These friends of his already own a house and live together.. I guess I don''t see what is not to afford..
I guess in your case you''re talking about the stone.. and if thats important to you.. I guess thats worth waiting for..I guess I just don''t see delaying marriage because you can''t afford a diamond.. Something about it just doesn''t seem right, although that is sort of what our society dictates.

For some, money is a huge thing..especially for guys and if he''s a practical thinker it will always be a reason for things. My Fi and I were orginally thinking of getting married this Oct, however, he was stressing about finances. See, he didn''t want to go into our marriage, in debt or broke. I have some debt I need to pay off and he wanted me to pay off as much as I could before we were married. I totally understand these reasons. So we went from Oct 2006 to May 2007....it sucks that I have to wait 7 more months before we marry...but it makes me feel safe and secure knowing that if (God forbid) one of looses our job we will be okay. I also don''t want to start the marriage off fighting over money....I''d rather fight over his leaving the toliet seat up habit.

Not to say that this is the issue with Cinderella and her man, just trying to give a reason why some would use money as an excuse to not get engaged or married right away.

 

[Cailet]

ok - i have rewritten my post about 10 times now....

first - I agree with everyone else that said that you need to forget what everyone else wants you to do. You need to figure out what YOU want to do (be that a job, your own place, getting married). I mean - really sit down and hash it out with yourself.

second - set up a timeline that is acceptable to You for accomplishing the goals set in #1. And you really need to be honest with yourself on this one -- don''t make timelines according to what you "think" your BF will agree to - or when you "think" you will have enough money set aside for whatever. Make them according to what YOU will be comfortable with.

third - sit down with the BF and let him know what you have come up with.

If that does not yield any more progress - you are really going to have to ask yourself: "Am I ok with living with this man as his girlfriend forever and not as his wife?" If the answer is yes - then YAY you have a great situatoin. IF the answer is no then you need to find your own place and get out.

not to sound too harsh - and I''ve been dating my BF forever too - but you need to make sure that you are taking care of yourself


oh and common law isn''t recognized in California....

 

[sosst7]

I can totally understand where you are coming from. I recently got engaged BUT before that I knew two girls who had been dating their boyfriends for less than a year and got engaged. When I heard about their engagements, I was happy but I was uber annoyed at my boyfriend. We had been dating for five years and like yourself, practically married. We recently bought a house and everything. My best advice to you is to hang on, he''s gonna come around. Personally, I don''t think ultimatums are the best way to go because you have to be really ready to walk away if it doesn''t go as planned. But that''s just my two cents! Good luck!!

 

[partgypsy]

Yes, I also think it''s interesting where relatives would be offended if you didn''t have a big wedding, but aren''t that you are living together without being married?
My husband''s family, though we were living together, wouldn''t let us share a bedroom when we visited because we weren''t married, so I know it bothered them.

I was with my husband for 6 years, 5 years living together when we decided, to get married. I was in grad school, he was a bartender, so obviously neither of us was rolling in dough. But it was the next step. We got our rings and basically eloped on spring break. My husband''s brother, sister, and Mom were the witnesses, because the Mom and brother were visiting that weekend, so we planned it to coincide. Were there some hurt feelings? Yes, from my family because they weren''t there, and also from the Greek side of the family that he didn''t have to go through the usual intimidation/checking out and big wedding that is expected. My father had a belated reception at his restaurant so everyone could meet. So in retrospect, I probably could have done it more tactfully, but the point was, we wanted to be married. It doesn''t take alot of money to get married.

So it depends on your priorities. I sense mixed signals from your post. On one side it sounds like you really want to get married. On the other, it doesn''t sound like you want to give up conditions for getting married, like a 1.5 carat ring and to me a large expensive wedding that honestly would take time to save for. Sometimes you can''t have both.

 

[bookworm21]

So just a quick update. Thanks for all the thoughts and advice. I had a talk with my bf, and I realized that what I really needed was reassurance that marriage is on his mind. We had a long discussion about what each of us expected, and settled on an agreeement. He''s taking on several new projects, and I''m not even finished with school, so we decided to wait until next year for the engagement to happen.

What really put my mind at ease was the fact that he discusses marriage with his friends quite often. I previously thought that he avoided the subject at all costs; apparently I was wrong. Not only that, but a couple of his friends actually push him to get married sooner rather than later! How weird is that?!!? Plus, it''s the GUYS that are saying that!

And to get married sooner, I''m willing to give up the big wedding. I don''t even want a big wedding in the first place. I hate planning things and am awful at it, so that''s what I''m willing to sacrifice. But we definitely don''t want to start out a marriage with family angry at us for eloping. His grandma is 90, and there''s no way I''m going to risk angering that sweet woman who treats me like her granddaughter.

Once again, thanks for all the advice and support. Sometimes, I don''t know what I''d do without this forum to turn to.

 

[Caribou]

I had this whole thing written out and hit ''cancel'' instead of ''submit''

Anywho, I''m glad the two of you talked...it''s good that you were on similar pages...seems like it was just a boy soon/girl soon situation..those are fun.

I have a grandma who also wants to see at least one grandkid get married...I''m the first one...so instead of us going to Jamica with a couple of friends, we are going to have a full wedding. It''s worth it if it makes the matriarch of the family happy.

 

[anchor31]

I''m glad you talked this through, Cinderella. And I know how you feel about the grand-mother, my grandma wants to see me and/or my sister getting married before she dies... I''d feel bad hurting her felling as I adore her, but... we''ll see.

 

[allycat0303]

Ok, I''m late to this thread, but I read it this morning and it''s been burning a HOLE in my brain all day.

Cinderella: I remember you specifically because your boyfriend purchased a 0.88 carat Asscher right hand ring for your birthday and you had posted sometime after, and some of the people on the forum were totally confused that your boyfriend was citng financial reasons for the lack of engagement. Honestly, I don''t know how you do this.There''s always going to be money issues, school issues, career issues etc., but being engaged is obviously important to you, and it should be on the same priority page for him. And honestly, 10 years is a LONG time, my finace and I have been together 10 years, and to be quite honest, if he hadn''t been ready and I was, I would have moved on. It would have been painful, terrible, etc., but at the end of the day, part of being a couple is also about timing, and being at the same place in your lives.

I always think, "Guys do what they want" Period. Sometimes they might throw up smokescreen''s etc., but at the end of the day, their actions are glaringly obvious. You know your guy better then everyone else, so follow your heart. If you believe that he wants to marry you and he''s sincere, then don''t doubt yourself (or your relationship), it''s going to happen. But if you feel that he may not be sincere about his intentions, then remember that there''s always better out there.

 

[Cailet]

so glad you guys were able to hash it all out!!
Hopefully you guys are on the same page now and everything works out for the best!!

 

[bookworm21]

Thanks for the positive thoughts everyone!

Ally, thank you for the advice, a lot of what you said makes sense. Maybe some of you may think I''m being naive, but I do believe that he''s sincere and waiting for the right time. After talking to him, I realized that I believed that his intention to marry me was always there, but that I just needed the reassurance from him that getting engaged is one of his priorities in this year or the next.

I know someone may be yanking her hair out in frustrating because I seem so....dumb. But I honestly think that this will happen, and like Caribou said, this definitely is a girl soon/boy soon situation. I''m about to yank my hair out.

 

[Evie75]

Yeah dont feel bad I think im getting a bald spot LOL

 

[Caribou]

Date: 2/24/2006 12:37:42 AM
Author: Cinderella
Thanks for the positive thoughts everyone!

Ally, thank you for the advice, a lot of what you said makes sense. Maybe some of you may think I''m being naive, but I do believe that he''s sincere and waiting for the right time. After talking to him, I realized that I believed that his intention to marry me was always there, but that I just needed the reassurance from him that getting engaged is one of his priorities in this year or the next.

I know someone may be yanking her hair out in frustrating because I seem so....dumb. But I honestly think that this will happen, and like Caribou said, this definitely is a girl soon/boy soon situation. I''m about to yank my hair out.

Cinderella, you are the only one who truly knows the relationship. Don''t feel dumb or naive, I''m sure most of us on here have been there. Regardless of what happens or what you decide, it''s going to be your decision and yours alone...nothing anyone is going to say on here is going to change that.

I''m sure everything will work out they you want it too.

 

[aphisiglovessae]

Date: 2/24/2006 12:37:42 AM
Author: Cinderella
Thanks for the positive thoughts everyone!

Ally, thank you for the advice, a lot of what you said makes sense. Maybe some of you may think I''m being naive, but I do believe that he''s sincere and waiting for the right time. After talking to him, I realized that I believed that his intention to marry me was always there, but that I just needed the reassurance from him that getting engaged is one of his priorities in this year or the next.

I know someone may be yanking her hair out in frustrating because I seem so....dumb. But I honestly think that this will happen, and like Caribou said, this definitely is a girl soon/boy soon situation. I''m about to yank my hair out.

You should never feel dumb for having a good relationship with someone for so long. The only time I would EVER think anyone was dumb in your situation is if they were being abused.

I really wanted you to understand the possibilities of why this engagement and marriage hasn''t taken place after ten years. I''m glad you''ve talked with him and have received some sort of explanation. I spend four years engaged to my ex with no explanation on why we hadn''t made any wedding plans. When I finally got tired of waiting, I gave him the ultimatum. Turns out he never intended to go through with the wedding. That''s why I wanted you to look at this from all angles and all possibilities. If I had done that to begin with, I wouldn''t have wasted all that time with someone who never kept his promise. Life is full of risks and relationships are big ones. But you also have to be aware and protect yourself at the same time. Don''t look at the world through those rose colored glasses. Real life sometimes isn''t so pretty.

 

[Caribou]

Date: 2/24/2006 12:54:09 PM
Author: aphisiglovessae

I really wanted you to understand the possibilities of why this engagement and marriage hasn''t taken place after ten years. I''m glad you''ve talked with him and have received some sort of explanation. I spend four years engaged to my ex with no explanation on why we hadn''t made any wedding plans. When I finally got tired of waiting, I gave him the ultimatum. Turns out he never intended to go through with the wedding. That''s why I wanted you to look at this from all angles and all possibilities. If I had done that to begin with, I wouldn''t have wasted all that time with someone who never kept his promise. Life is full of risks and relationships are big ones. But you also have to be aware and protect yourself at the same time. Don''t look at the world through those rose colored glasses. Real life sometimes isn''t so pretty.

You make a good point Aph, I was engaged before as well,and although I think he really meant it when he asked me to marry, I think he quickly realized after that he didn''t really want to marry me. So you gotta wonder...why do they even ask if they are unsure.

 

[aphisiglovessae]

Date: 2/24/2006 1:29:00 PM
Author: Caribou

Date: 2/24/2006 12:54:09 PM
Author: aphisiglovessae

I really wanted you to understand the possibilities of why this engagement and marriage hasn''t taken place after ten years. I''m glad you''ve talked with him and have received some sort of explanation. I spend four years engaged to my ex with no explanation on why we hadn''t made any wedding plans. When I finally got tired of waiting, I gave him the ultimatum. Turns out he never intended to go through with the wedding. That''s why I wanted you to look at this from all angles and all possibilities. If I had done that to begin with, I wouldn''t have wasted all that time with someone who never kept his promise. Life is full of risks and relationships are big ones. But you also have to be aware and protect yourself at the same time. Don''t look at the world through those rose colored glasses. Real life sometimes isn''t so pretty.

You make a good point Aph, I was engaged before as well,and although I think he really meant it when he asked me to marry, I think he quickly realized after that he didn''t really want to marry me. So you gotta wonder...why do they even ask if they are unsure.

That was the first question I asked him when the truth came out. He said at the time he wanted to, but things changed as time passed. I knew it was a crock of BS. The second thing I said was "you have thirty days to get out and don''t think you''ll be sleeping in my bed until then." I went on my first date, in almost five years, three days later. He was so jealous and I was loving it. I made that last month torture for him.

Oh, by the way, this is how he told me the truth: "Honey, I love you very much and I always will, but deep down inside I have this feeling that this marriage wouldn''t work." What a cop-out.

 

[Caribou]

Date: 2/24/2006 1:36:56 PM
Author: aphisiglovessae

Date: 2/24/2006 1:29:00 PM
Author: Caribou

Date: 2/24/2006 12:54:09 PM
Author: aphisiglovessae

I really wanted you to understand the possibilities of why this engagement and marriage hasn''t taken place after ten years. I''m glad you''ve talked with him and have received some sort of explanation. I spend four years engaged to my ex with no explanation on why we hadn''t made any wedding plans. When I finally got tired of waiting, I gave him the ultimatum. Turns out he never intended to go through with the wedding. That''s why I wanted you to look at this from all angles and all possibilities. If I had done that to begin with, I wouldn''t have wasted all that time with someone who never kept his promise. Life is full of risks and relationships are big ones. But you also have to be aware and protect yourself at the same time. Don''t look at the world through those rose colored glasses. Real life sometimes isn''t so pretty.

You make a good point Aph, I was engaged before as well,and although I think he really meant it when he asked me to marry, I think he quickly realized after that he didn''t really want to marry me. So you gotta wonder...why do they even ask if they are unsure.

That was the first question I asked him when the truth came out. He said at the time he wanted to, but things changed as time passed. I knew it was a crock of BS. The second thing I said was ''you have thirty days to get out and don''t think you''ll be sleeping in my bed until then.'' I went on my first date, in almost five years, three days later. He was so jealous and I was loving it. I made that last month torture for him.

Oh, by the way, this is how he told me the truth: ''Honey, I love you very much and I always will, but deep down inside I have this feeling that this marriage wouldn''t work.'' What a cop-out.

It all reminds me of the Wedding Singer when he gets left at the alter. She comes to him the next day and tells him why and he responds by saying ''Thing you could have told me YESTERDAY!'' too funny.

 

[allycat0303]

Cinderella,

I don't think you are dumb or naive, I think you might be too nice

. I think that about a lot of girls. I have friends are these totally amazing, wonderful people, and they are dating guys that don't realize what they have. And it always makes me FUME!!

Recently, I was talking to one of my boyfriend's friends. He's been with his girlfriend for 7 years, and she REALLY wanted to get engaged, they were living together, etc., like marriage, but he was always putting engagement off. In any case, I was along with the guys one day and I asked him, "Why don't you marry her?" And he said, "Because this way I still have options." And I said to him, "If she was going to leave you tomorrow, you wouldn't marry her?" And he told me that "Of course if she left me I would marry her, I love her." But then he added, that he knew she would never have the guts to do that

And I do agree with aphisiglovessae, that sometimes guys can be less then honest to keep a good thing going. But at the end, do what feels right to you, only you can make the best decision for you because you're the one in the relationship. Just consider all the angles, when you're feeling unsure because it can be just a bad day, or a sign of something deeper.

 

[meepcat]

Date: 2/20/2006 3:41:31 PM
Author: Cinderella
Mara, thanks so much for your quick response.


I know what the holdup is, and I do understand...somewhat. He''s a very cautious guy, money-wise, because he grew up with very little money and had to go out and make his own when he was very young. Also, because he is self-employed, the income, though good for now, is not guaranteed. In fact, he may actually lose the lease in a couple of years. So right now, he''s concentrating on saving whatever the hell he can, just in case he cannot renew the lease.


He also doesn''t want to get married because if our names are tied together, then if one has to file for bankruptcy for one reason or another, the other''s credit will be negatively affected too. It''s a matter of protecting assets, I guess. His is a relatively high-risk business, plus we have just gotten into real estate, not heavily leveraged or anything, but the risk is still there.


The bottom line is that he is very cautious about money, and I know he wants to marry me, and he is VERY generous when it comes to certain things, but a ring and a wedding will cost about $80K, and there is no way of dodging a big wedding. We HAVE to invite family. And a bunch of friends. The number will be at least 300. I suggested with going to Hawaii for a wedding, but he said that''s not possible because his family would be unwilling to travel, AND they will be upset with us for doing that. So that''s out of the question. Plus, if we were to have a wedding in Hawaii, then we would have to pay for the plane tickets and hotel stay for my parents (who, by the way, will not be helping with the costs of the wedding), because they aren''t well-off financially. My parents are another financial burden on us.


I don''t know how much this rambling clarifies anything, but I reallly don''t know what to think or what is reasonable to expect at this point.


ETA: Caribou, i just saw your post too. Thanks for your response too, and he wants me to get my MBA because of the salary thing. He believes that I am entirely capable of earning a six-figure salary, and he wants me to get my MBA because it would give me an edge over the competition, so to speak. And yes, he does do a lot for me, and I have told him that I want to get married sooner rather than later, because it''s just ridiculous to have to wait until I''m 30 to settle down.

Hi Cinderella,

While venting, are you actually looking for advice?

I had a similar experience to you, particularly with my current BF. I love him, truly, madly, deeply, and with devotion. However, he had a business, too, which allowed him to work from home. He was making almost around the poverty line, and I told him, after a year, that he should strongly consider getting a full-time job, and then commencing this business on the side. The VOIP market is on the rise, but for smaller businesses, such as his, I did not have the patience to wait for its fruition, considering the monthly payout did not equate to the monthly incoming. This lead to frequent discussions over finances and the future. After all, for 6 years prior to our union, he had only spent his time with his entrepeneurial activities, sinking every penny he earned into the business. Some payouts were large, most of them were not, but having experienced a few large ones, he was patient. I was not.

After a year and a half, and many arguements, fights, and having once walked out after packing a suitcase, he and I finally outlined our priorities. He wanted to marry me, and my stipulation included financial security, savings, and a ring. I never expected him to change his priorities overnight, but he did. Over the course of 6 months, he dissolved his other businesses (he had 3, total, at one time), and ceded from the one that earned him he most (but still at the poverty line), to obtain a full-time job with a senior-level salary. We''re now in the same tax bracket, to my satisfaction, and he has started to have spontaneous dreams of motorcycles, a hot tub, a 401k, and other frivolities.

We are not engaged yet, but he clearly has my priority in mind, and I better understand what dream he was trying to fulfill with his businesses. An entrepeneur loves to create, as much as an artist does. However, this is an emotional impetus, which can be difficult for non-business people to understand. I''m an engineer, and I can''t understand the entrepeneurial spirit, because I''d rather be dancing in a ballet. It''s not orthogonal. I''ve learned that if you sink every penny you earn into the business, it''s not a good business plan to keep following. In my experience with start-up companies (I''ve worked for 10 of them), when they start pumping investment money into folks'' salary by the 3rd round, they will likely sink, or need to be bought out.

As far as the wedding, ring, etc., all these projections you may be making are incorrect (IMHO!). My BF had an idea of how much a ring would cost ($10k), and fretted over saving that up. I did my PS research, culminated information from 18 vendors, and showed him how much less it would actually cost. He was grateful for that, since on his own, he would have spent too much, and I would have been wondering if we could have gotten a better deal. We are flea market folks. Were we to have a big wedding, it would be about us, and our personalities, but in the most inexpensive way possible. I, personally, don''t believe in spending a lot of money for 1 day of events, because my frugality requires me to seek ways to save for when I don''t have social security (isn''t that already?).

I am not being judgemental, but I am a little sad to read that you feel obligated to have a big wedding. I can imagine, a big afterparty, but the wedding and reception is such a large cost to bear, it puts so much pressure on the couple (or their respective parents) to sponsor a large event for what? So relatives who may not personally endeavor to understand your intimate well-being can eat at $50/head? This is not against you, personally, but towards the fallacy (again, IMHO!) that some matriarchs, or patriarchs condone upon their progency. Our parents are incredibly frugal people: my BF''s mother raised 4 kids, father is a WWII Hungarian survivor who was drafted to work for both the Germans and Russians; his mentality is to be very aware and future-oriented, my dad is an engineer, and my mom has been sick all her life. Perhaps this predisposes us to not desiring a large wedding, but I feel (again, IMHO!) the expense is unbearable if not sensibly applied.

 

[laurel_aurelia]

hi cinderella

are you a church-going person? a church wedding IN ITSELF is not usually more expensive per person. if you''re a member of the church, you pay, say, $500 for the officiant and the space.
If you get married around a holiday (say, christmas or easter), the church is normally already decorated. or, you just do like pew bows and simple bouquets.

the reception -- yep, that''s going to be expensive. but, it''s EASY to find a location that does NOT charge you BY THE PERSON. the only real things that are more expensive by the person -- catering, perhaps cake (but cake can be done CHEAPLY, mine''s beautiful and $100 for 75 people), favors.

Favors can be made. catering -- does NOT have to be a sit down dinner. we''re doing hors d''euvres.

our entire wedding (including my $1400 wedding dress, $2000 photographer, $2200 ceremony/reception fee including horse and carriage at a beautiful botanical garden) is costing us $10,000, IF 80 people show up (we''re actually inviting less than that.)

So, since photographer, dress, flowers, location, etc, are not more PER PERSON.. you should be able to EASILY do a PRETTY 300 person wedding for $20k-$25k. EASILY.

Where are you from? once you get married, look for help on here. (for example, i''m a professional photographer. others on here might be too, or have hookups, etc.)

that covers my wedding schpiel.

if he can afford grad school, he can afford a ring. my ring is 1.50 carat center stone princess in platinum with a .4 pave setting and it was $11,400. from CHRISTIAN BERNARD. you can ALWAYS get a better deal if you don''t go with someone like christian bernard. especially through pricescope vendors -- but itsounds like he may be the type who would not be comfortable purchasing a ring over the internet.

He could also get a simple solitare setting -- the diamond would really POP in that -- and for, say, your wedding or your anniversary later upgrade the SETTING. then the diamond is still happily on your finger and you still got some more "bling".

if you all are paying for the wedding, you should not feel obligated to have everyone there.

Hell, trick ''em -- have a destination wedding (say, hawaii). pay for your parents to come out (they HAVE to be there, obviously). invite everyone else -- most of htem will say no because it''s so far away but appreciate the invite. so, you''re paying for your parents being there; having a BEAUTIFUL destination wedding, and not offending anyone because they CHOSE to not come, and the close family you''ve paid to have there. and then you could have a party when you get home.

this is long. good luck w/everything! and the business and school!