I think the wedding is off. so bummed

[Angela1977]

Sounds like you''re actually doing remarkably well...keep your chin up and stay rational. I know it''s hard, but you''re so young...too young to saddle yourself with this kind of hatred.

 

[allycat0303]

Hey Cello...Ok, so I just read your post on the "I need advice" so I''m going to give you a been there, done that. I''m Viet, and my boyfriend is white. My parents are very traditional asian mentality. Yes they used to call me a tell me I was useless. Yes they told me that my white boyfriend would beat me, and then dump me when I started to look old. Yes they told my boyfriend would be an alcholic. Now the thing is that I don''t look at that and think they are bad evil people. This sort of behavior isn''t really unusual in asian mentality. I just think of them as being hardcore asian. It''s very much of a cultural thing to say mean nasty things to your children, and expect them to take it. Now my boyfriend knew about all of this, but he never took it in offense. It made him feel rejected, but he never took it as a personal offense (difficult to imagine I know) He just took it as a normal reaction to their daughter dating someone that they didn''t find acceptable.

The issue is patience, understanding and persistence. I worked on my parents (democratically), always pointed out his good qualities, and worked really hard for them to see his good qualities...And YES, 7 years into the relationship, they decide that they LOVE him, and I couldn''t have made a better choice. He has a great job, works hard, and spoils me to bits. As a matter of fact they like him so much more then my sister''s boyfriend who is VIET. And just to say that I never stood up for my boyfriend, not upfront and said "I''m not accepting this" I''d slip in a little " oh I knew this Viet guy that beat his wife too"...but I would never, never consider cutting my parents out for any reason, and I''m thinking that your boyfriend is not going to be able to either.

BUT I can also understand why this would be a deal breaker with you. I don''t think that every relationship can survive these kinds of trauma. You need to have a really strong fondation of trust, love, understanding, and must importantly, acceptance. If you feel that " your finger feels emptier then your heart" then there''s not much more to say. You are making the right decision for yourself, and it''s quite possible that the relationship won''t have with stood all the stress, because face it, there''s no guarantee that they''ll EVER like you. In any case, I always say that whatever you are going through now, is probably not the WORST thing you will face as a couple. It''s better to find out now that this is not for you then later.

Good luck, and keep strong!

 

[zhuzhu]

"This sort of behavior isn''t really unusual in asian mentality. I just think of them as being hardcore asian. It''s very much of a cultural thing to say mean nasty things to your children, and expect them to take it."

allycat,

I would be extremely cautious and NOT generalize all Asian parents. Generalization is the culprit behind racism, and we need to be mindful not to assume that all Asians parents are critical and say mean things to children.

Many people, myself included, have the most wonderful and understanding parents and family members.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 5/4/2006 6:32:08 PM
Author: zhuzhu

''This sort of behavior isn''t really unusual in asian mentality. I just think of them as being hardcore asian. It''s very much of a cultural thing to say mean nasty things to your children, and expect them to take it.''

allycat,

I would be extremely cautious and NOT generalize all Asian parents. Generalization is the culprit behind racism, and we need to be mindful not to assume that all Asians parents are critical and say mean things to children.

Many people, myself included, have the most wonderful and understanding parents and family members.

I would agree that generalizations/stereotypes are one of the roots of racism, however in this case I would think that Allycat is just being honest about the way she sees her parents, and the reasons why.

I am the most politically incorrect person I know, so I apologize if I come off sounding, er...wrong, but I think your parents would be in the minority among asian parents. My mother is wonderful, and I love her to death, but even she really wanted me to marry a Korean. The only reason why me marrying an Australian is OK is 1) he''s white, and that is OK and 2) I''m 33, so she''s happy that it''s finally happening - spinsterhood avoided, mission accomplished!

She''s never pressured me to get married (also unusual) but hey, come on...I can read between the lines.

In Ally''s defense, she did say it "isn''t really unusual" meaning "not uncommon", and I think she''s right. I''ve had Korean friends my whole life...never dated anyone who wasn''t Korean until I was 23 and didn''t have my first real non-Korean friend until I was 27 (this doesn''t mean I didn''t have contact with non-Koreans...but my close core circle were all Koreans). I''ve seen lots of Korean parents, and a lot of them ARE hard on their kids. Not because they want to be mean, but most of them loved their kids and sacrificed a lot of their own personal happiness for their children...so they wanted their children to reap the rewards.

Many Asian parents are afraid of interracial relationships not because the don''t like the person, but because they are afraid that society will "look down" on their kids and their children will have a hard time. They fear not being able to communicate and having grandchildren with confused identities. Since we''ve been so homogenous for so long, I think they fear what they don''t know. I''ve noticed as more of my parent''s friend''s kids marry interracially (and have good marriages) the more comfortable they are becoming with it.

Anyway, it''s not a simple subject, and not one that can be covered in a few paragraphs. Zhuzhu, out of curiosity, you are marrying another asian, right? Do you think your parents would be as understanding if you didn''t? Especially if the non-asian was non-white? And are your parents 1st generation? (I think this makes a big difference) As much as I love my mom and think the world of her, I know it would be very difficult for her, although in the end I do think she would be accepting because it would make me happy.

 

[snow_happy]

ally--

MAN do we have the same parents or what! I''ve been lobbying for my FI for four and a half years now and it''s just starting to pay off! (I''m so glad though

)

zhuzhu--
While I agree with your statement that generalizations are dangerous, I think ally is speaking from her own experience and perhaps conversations with other interracial couples (like myself). I have lots of friends who are in interracial relationships and they have echoed the same response from asian parents. It''s not bad or wrong, but just how they show that they care (a sort of averse way about it I suppose). On the other hand I do think there are asian parents out there that are cool with whatever, and hey, more power to those kids for not having to lobby for their partners

 

[zhuzhu]

Please don't misunderstand my previous post as an "attack" on anyone. Nor did I forget that this thread started to support someone who is hurting. However, by calling someone (or a group of people) "bad guys" is not going to fix the problem. In fact, by stereotyping a whole race category, we are making the same mistake parents of cello's ex-fiancé made with her. I just worry that when a negative, strong statement is made in a public forum, people who are not familiar with that particular culture may be negatively influenced, and sadly resulting in bigger racial division in this country.

 

[bravesfan]

Ohh Cello--- I am so sorry that this is happening. It must have been very hard for you let go of someone that you love, but remember that this isnt set in stone and who knows... maybe he will really see the impact that these comments have on you and he will truly be able to do something about it.
if you love him and you think it is worth it... i would stick around (then you win and his parents are right back where they started). It comes down to what do you want... if you think it is better that it is over then you are on the right track, if you want to be with him but his parents are in the way ... "fight for him". Dont let them push you away because that is there goal.


Good luck--- we are here for you

 

[snow_happy]

zhuzhu --

I think you brought up an excellent point (as usual

). You are right about not making the generalization that cello''s ex-fi''s parents did or that she made about their behavior based on her dissertation study. It''s all dangerous ground. I think once you mentioned it from the perspective within cello''s case I realized how it is damaging sometimes and how even I am unfair to my parents by assuming they will be a certain way based on the generalization I''ve made.

 

[allycat0303]

I fail to see how writing that something isn''t "Uncommon" is generalizing. To me, generalizing is saying "EVERYONE" Furthurmore, I''m insulted that you would insinuate that I''m perpetuating racisim against my OWN race, and against my parents, which I have always had the upmost respect for. And even more important, I think that the reason some of these things fail to change, and why there is so much misunderstanding, is that many races will fail to acknowledge, or refuse to acknowledge that there is something that needs to be changed, by saying, "Oh that''s generalization" It''s culture. And what is culture if not a form of generalization.

Did I say they were bad or evil??? NO I don''t think that at all. As a matter of fact, what I think is that if you''re going to date someone that is of a different culture, then you''re going to have to understand what the mentality is and be accepting. That''s what my boyfriend does.

My parents, have themselves FREELY admitted that they have been hard on us, that they''ve never let up, that they expect more. But my mom has always said "compared to other asians, we were really easy on you" I''m not saying it''s wrong, the method gets results. We are 3 children, and all 3 of us are in medical school. But it''s a method that can take a toll on your self esteem, and to deny that it totally doesn''t exist, that it''s a generaliztion, is a distinct lack of insight into your own culture.

 

[zhuzhu]

Hi Ally, I am very sorry that you took offense in my replies. Please be assured that I was not insinuating that you are perpetuating racisim. I was born and raised in Asia for the first 16 years of my life, therefore I think I have a solid understanding of the Asian mentality. Understanding WHY some asian parents behave certain way towards issues (like you and many others understand) has made me realize that "perception is not always reality". My point from the very beggining was to caution all of us on the choice of words when posting, as they may mislead our readers in directions that are not neccesarily true or healthy.

It really was not about you, and I am sorry if I hurt your feelings.

 

[Mandarine]

Oh no!....Cello...I feel for you!!!

I am in a similar situation...but not quite. I don't know if you read my thread in the LIW forum about the MIL/FMIL....

This is how I feel right now and I'm so proud of you for standing up for yourself!. My situation is not as bad, but I do think that I would need to stand up for myself, even if that means losing the guy I love.

I am pretty divided right now on how I feel about marrying him, but it's only because of his mom. Isn't that crazy? you find a great guy but the one problem is outside of you both?

I feel for him too....it has to be hard to be stuck in a manipulative situation and it sounds like your guy is not handling it very well....but it really is a tough situation.

I would never ask my BF to choose either, but to stand up for me.....after all, we should be the "team"...

Anyway, Hang in there....I hope things get better for you and whatever happens is for the best! Please keep us posted

*hugs*

M~

 

[allycat0303]

Zhuzhu, I accept and appreciate your apology very much. The initial intent of my post wasn't to say "asian's are bad parents or evil" I have long ago realized that although my parents have said many hurtful, terrible things to me, it is not because they hate me/don't support me. It's their way of instilling motivation, and show caring. They EXPECT and DEMAND the best, absolutely, but don't think for a second that my parents wouldn't go hungry to give not only the things I need, but the things I want. I always keep that in mind, whenever they say anything that hurts me. I've long ago accepted the GOOD and the BAD of my culture.

What I wanted Cello to understand, is that her ex-fiance's parents weren't acting out of spite/hate to her specifically, but that what she precieve as "verbally abusive" is not what I would feel is "verbally abusive" because of the motivation behind the things they say a) They don't want me to have a hard life b) They are concerned with what the asian community will say b) They want the best for me. And in very much of an asian context, her fiance probably wouldn't cut his parents off because he understands that this is part of the way his parents were raised, and he was raised.

Which is why interracial dating isn't for everyone, and it can be hard. If you don't have an open mind, and if you don't take the time to look where people are coming from, and have an open and accepting spirit then you won't be able to make things work. If my boyfriend had taken everything my parents had said about him in a "Canadian context" he would have misinterpreted everything, and we would have broken up a long time ago.

This is something I feel very strongly about, that all cultures have there good points and bad points, and no culture is better or superior to others. But you have to be able to look at your own culture and recognize both the good and the bad (yes there are exceptions to every rule) but there are certinly traits that are more predominent then others.

 

[zhuzhu]

Ally,
I am glad any misunderstanding has been removed. You sound like someone with a good head on the shoulder and I am sure you make your parents very proud!

Cello,
Sorry about that little divergence from your original posting. How are you feeling today??? Any news?

 

[flopkins]

cello - I''m so sorry to hear about this. I think it says it all when you say you were miserable - no matter what the extenuating circumstances, if you are miserable, you need to get out of that. I hope you are holding up and have a good weekend trip away. Best of luck to you!

 

[cellososweet]

Hey Everyone,
Thanks for your input. Don''t worry about the divergence, i understand. I just wanted to add that i do understand where his parents are coming from because this was the whole focus of my thesis in college (second generation korean american immigrants). How freaking ironic right? A damn expert gets caught up in the funnel of her expertise. Joy (sarcasm). But that does not warrant verbal abuse and it is verbal abuse. Saying that they don''t like me because of what race i am is bad enough but they make my "whatever-the-hell-he-is-now" (ex fiance) feel like crap. They tell him that he won''t be their son if he marries me and they insinuate that his life is worthless. Is this verbal abuse? I think so. I think the definition has something to do with hurting people, making them feel less human, humiliated, ashamed. I think this fits the bill. I wanted him to seriously consider his relationship with his parents and how he can get them to stop making him feel like sh*t. He comes home extremely upset to the point of tears and frustration every time he goes over. He can''t even go over for Thanksgiving without them diggining in about how he''s not a pilot, doesn''t go to Berkeley and is marrying someone they don''t approve of. then they dig into me and my race ( my personality, how good i am to my family, my degree, job, aspirations. These are all sh*t because i''m "black" --see original post on the one drop rule--) I understand the culture. But i also understand ignorance. It''s a thin line.

Anyways. . .i feel like crap. thanks for asking. haha. Really though. I''ve cried myself to sleep pretty much all week. I lied when i said my finger felt emptier than my heart. It did at the time but that''s because i wasn''t allowing myself to fully feel what was happening. Does that make sense? I hope so.

I realize that this is my fault too. That i expect people to give 120% to me like i give to them but not everyone can do that. And would i really want him to? I know how frustrating it can be to give too much.

Rambling.

Thanks for the good vibes.

~cellososweet

 

[flopkins]

cello - my heart goes out to you. all the pain and hurt you are feeling is all just coming out...

I hope you have some family and/or friends to lean on... and you always have the support of the PS community!

 

[TravelingGal]

Cello, my heart goes out to you as well. Dynamics of asian parents aside (and I''m sorry for diverting as well), I hope you can find support with friends and family, and that they can help you during this time. I do hope somehow you can make it work still, but I totally understand where you are coming from.

Please feel free to come back and talk about it here, whenever you feel the need.

 

[Mandarine]

Hi!

Cello I just wanted to check in to see how you are doing? Please keep us posted!

*hugs!*

M~

 

[ilovesparkles]

Oh cello I just caught wind of this and am so sorry to hear about all that you have been going through! I almost started crying reading through this post. It was long ago but I too have felt the hatred of a SO parents because of our differences. In my case it was religion and everything was great while we were friends. They were so nice and really liked me, until the day we became GF/BF. Then they hated me. While they never said anything to my face, or directly insulted me, they found plenty of ways to put strains on our relationship and make their dislike of me known. While it was not the only reason we broke up, it did have a lot to do with it. The irony of the while thing in my mind, is that years later I converted. And as destiny would have it, I ended up as a member of the same congregation they are. Totally completely innocently I might add. Encounters are very awkward these days and are left niceties. But I am digressing. Just wanted to send you hugs and support! I am also curious as to whether or not you have talked to him since this happened? Where are you staying etc? You mentioned you don''t move until 6/23?

 

[cpster]

Cellosweet--I just wanted to offer my **hugs** to you. I've been through the same thing. I'm Chinese and my husband is Korean. I still remember the confrontational day where I finally talked back to my husband's dad. They didn't come to the wedding, and we wound up getting married anyway. They said the same thing, how he wouldn't be their son if he married me...how they didn't need him anymore and had already picked out their funeral plots. Talk about drama. They even told my husband to dump me so that they could help him find a nice Korean wife.

I gave up a long time ago trying to make his parents like me. I used to send them gifts and it was always me suggesting a visit to them. I finally realized that there was nothing wrong with me. I'm a good person, have a great job, and am responsible. I think I still wish that my husband would have been the one suggesting the visits...I guess growing up his Korean parents just instilled fear in him.

We haven't spoken to his parents for over three years now. I guess my husband chose me. Even though they are monsters, I still wanted them just to show up at the wedding. I know the lack of communication makes him sad.

I recently got in touch with my husband's brother. He tells me about how much his parents miss my husband, and how they realize they were wrong. No, they haven't apologized to me at all and I'm still mad about how nasty they were to me. Now I'm thinking if I should be the bigger person and try to initiate contact with them to make my husband feel better. Sometimes I think I should, while at other times I wonder if I'm asking for more pain and insults.

People can change, but it can take a long time and a lot of pain. My marriage hasn't been rosy and I truly believe the situation with his parents is one of the main causes. Don't get me wrong, it's not all bad. We're still married because we truly love each other.

I don't have advice to give, but just wanted to share a bit of my experience. After being together for so many years, I can only imagine how hard it will be to walk away if you choose to do so. I hope that you have the support of your family and friends to help you through this time.

 

[cellososweet]

Hey Everyone,
I''m back I actually didn''t go out of town, but took a break from the world by taking drives up PCH, going to the beach, sitting on my patio, reading a book.

I picked up a book called "How to Say It, for Couples"

I never read cheesy self-help so this was a big step for me.

This one wasn''t cheesy. It helped.

I am wrong too. This situation is a lot bigger than i had made it out to be. It had a lot more to do with communication and a lot less to do with his parents. Actually, most of the things have to do a lot more with communication than what is seemingly the problem at hand.

I, cellososweet, am wrong. sometimes. i am wrong. flat out. no sugar coating. i have a holier-than-thou chip on my damn shoulder. i have a lawyer mentality and a lawyer fighting style. if i''m convinced of something or if i have my point of view i will gently and "logically" shove it down people''s throat. And I do this a lot. But I don''t admit it.

So Sunday morning, i called him into the room and asked him to lie down and i told him that i was wrong. not only about what happened this past week, but about a lot. and that i''m willing to say i was wrong and that this is my fault too. i still feel strongly that he could''ve handled his parents better but at least now i know that i could get my tits out of a twist over it. it might make things easier. * rolls eyes in disgust with self*

*sigh*

So. . . i''m going to finish this book and take it''s advice. And stop seeing myself as more educated, more seasonsed, more well-traveled than my partner. we''re equal. but not equally as wrong. i take more blame for the mess we''re in. he was really trying. i''m just a self-righteous b*tch-machine.

~cellososweet

 

[Tybee]

Wow,

I am so impressed by you! It is a huge huge step to admit wrongness at all. However you end up, I wish you luck, great luck in fact. Big hugs.

Tybee

 

[FireGoddess]

More power to you for recognizing your own faults in the situation. You can''t fix a problem if you don''t recognize it''s there. I hope things continue to progress towards self realization on everyone''s accounts and that this works out well and happily for all of you....

 

[MissAva]

I think you are very brave and wise to admit that you are wrong. It sounds like you are a dominant personality, which can be a great thing in many areas of your life. I hope you are able to work on things with you SO and make them better. You are taking responsibility and that is so huge. You are on the right path, and I wish you the best of luck.

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 5/8/2006 4:21:49 PM
Author: cellososweet
Hey Everyone,
I''m back I actually didn''t go out of town, but took a break from the world by taking drives up PCH, going to the beach, sitting on my patio, reading a book.

I picked up a book called ''How to Say It, for Couples''

I never read cheesy self-help so this was a big step for me.

This one wasn''t cheesy. It helped.

I am wrong too. This situation is a lot bigger than i had made it out to be. It had a lot more to do with communication and a lot less to do with his parents. Actually, most of the things have to do a lot more with communication than what is seemingly the problem at hand.

I, cellososweet, am wrong. sometimes. i am wrong. flat out. no sugar coating. i have a holier-than-thou chip on my damn shoulder. i have a lawyer mentality and a lawyer fighting style. if i''m convinced of something or if i have my point of view i will gently and ''logically'' shove it down people''s throat. And I do this a lot. But I don''t admit it.

So Sunday morning, i called him into the room and asked him to lie down and i told him that i was wrong. not only about what happened this past week, but about a lot. and that i''m willing to say i was wrong and that this is my fault too. i still feel strongly that he could''ve handled his parents better but at least now i know that i could get my tits out of a twist over it. it might make things easier. * rolls eyes in disgust with self*

*sigh*

So. . . i''m going to finish this book and take it''s advice. And stop seeing myself as more educated, more seasonsed, more well-traveled than my partner. we''re equal. but not equally as wrong. i take more blame for the mess we''re in. he was really trying. i''m just a self-righteous b*tch-machine.

~cellososweet

Cellosweet, you crack me up (I mean that in a totally nice, supportive way). You and I have the same "lawyer mentality, back up the case with facts" type of approach.

I''m glad you''re able to talk to him. I''m glad that you''re talking about it. And I really hope that he comes to the place where he lays down the law to his folks or else closes the door on those relationships.

I feel your pain - it frustrates me to no end when I see someone being mistreated and s/he seemingly won''t step up to help make it stop. I forget that it''s very easy for people like us to do the "take no ca-ca" stance, and that it''s much harder for others. All the logic in the world doesn''t change what is comfortable for someone.

I admire your self-reflection greatly, and I hope all good things come out of this for you. Much luck!

 

[flopkins]

cello - I''m so glad that you two are talking again. THe hardest thing for me is admitting I am wrong - this is the source of many arguments btwn DH and I, and usually things get much better once I stop using my self-righteousness as a defensive/offensive tactic. I admire your being able to admit you were wrong so openly and honestly... best of luck to you and your relationship!!!

 

[decodelighted]

Girl,
Gotta love those "self-help" books when they actually do as advertised -- and HELP! Being a part of a truly equal partnership can be very humbling for those of us used to "running the show"! It''s something I work on constantly.

Indulging in feeling "superior" to a partner sets up a parent/child dynamic that ain''t so sexy & can breed contempt (the #1 predictor of future divorce--according to some blowhard

). Sounds like you''re working on defining your equality differently in order to truly appreciate his best qualities & what he balances out in you that''ll enrich both of your lives.

Think about it -- could you STAND dating yourself! I know I couldn''t (''cause I''ve done it - figuratively & literally -- time & time again).

Congrats on searching for your contribution/contamination of the relationship & ya have my best wishes for the future!!

 

[snow_happy]

cellososweet --

You crack me up. I think it takes MAD courage to make those statements to us and to your fiance -- and I applaud you [appl:] . I''m sure most people in their lives have acted "holier than thou" and I, for one, have definitely been guilty of shoving my opinion down people''s throats on more than one occasion. After the Landmark thing that I mentioned earlier, I also had a realization of who I was really being in my relationships and life in general - and man it was ugly. I did a lot of apologizing and it was tough for me, but worth it. I found that once I brought it to light, it seemed silly, like - who would want to be like that and affect their loved ones so aversely? So now you can, with this clean canvas, create something new and hopeful that inspires you.

Thank you for being so open and sharing your story with us. I truly think you have been SO BRAVE these past few weeks (years even!). ::SUPER HUGS::

 

[anchor31]

What you did takes a lot of courage, cello!! Bravo! Please keep us posted on your situation, I hope things work out for the best for both of you.

 

[Small]

Date: 5/9/2006 9:53:43 AM
Author: anchor31
What you did takes a lot of courage, cello!! Bravo! Please keep us posted on your situation, I hope things work out for the best for both of you.

I agree. I was in a similar relationship for eight years...except we are both white so I wasn''t being discriminated against because of race it was because my parents were divorced and my family was not ''good enough''. I too made many, many mistakes in that relationship. I allowed myself to be in direct competition with his mom and when his dad passed away she made some very mean, heartless comments about his father that soured me even more to her but I was unable to tell that to my guy because I loved him so much and what she said would have shattered his world. Needless to say the mother just played on my guy and used her being alone as a way to manipulate him and split us up. In the end it became her or me and I lost out

. Months later when he was involved with someone else he and I sat down to talk. He realized his faults and I mine but too much had gone wrong to go back or try again. He realized what his mother was doing even with this relationship. He''s now married and she''s accepted it. Sometimes parents like to have all the control because they think someone isn''t good enough for whatever the reason. It''s unacceptable but there are ways to coexist...we just have to find middle ground. I commend you for your efforts and for taking the steps now because it''s important. I don''t regret letting go as I have a wonderful life now but I do sometimes look back and think what if??? I''m sure my ex does too. Good luck sweetie...hugs!