ideal vs. excellent

[sabinameister]

Is there really a difference between an ideal and excellent cut (GIA grading)? Now I''m seeing some PS posts on super ideal, just wondering what your thoughts are.

Sabina

 

[diagem]

GIA does not have an Ideal grade...

Ideal is an AGS call!

A lot of Diamond sellers out there categorize their products as Ideal cut..., watch out from this term!!

As far as I know..., only AGS has a grade called Ideal! And again..., its only a grade..., the future might bring more surprises....

 

[Ellen]

Date: 3/14/2008 8:28:19 AM
Author:sabinameister
Is there really a difference between an ideal and excellent cut (GIA grading)? Now I''m seeing some PS posts on super ideal, just wondering what your thoughts are.

Sabina

AGS Ideal range has some stones that are better than others, but all will be decent. GIA Ex''s have a much larger range, and some are just plain dogs.

I think those with a discerning eye can tell the difference between a well cut stone, and a super well/tight cut stone (super ideal).

 

[diagem]

Date: 3/14/2008 8:50:48 AM
Author: Ellen

Date: 3/14/2008 8:28:19 AM
Author:sabinameister
Is there really a difference between an ideal and excellent cut (GIA grading)? Now I''m seeing some PS posts on super ideal, just wondering what your thoughts are.

Sabina

AGS Ideal range has some stones that are better than others, but all will be decent. GIA Ex''s have a much larger range, and some are just plain dogs.

I think those with a discerning eye can tell the difference between a well cut stone, and a super well/tight cut stone (super ideal).

As much as I am NOT a big fan of GIA..., I think naming a RB that earned a EX cut grade by them a "dog" is a bit harsh...

 

[Ellen]

Date: 3/14/2008 8:56:56 AM
Author: DiaGem
As much as I am NOT a big fan of GIA..., I think naming a RB that earned a EX cut grade by them a ''dog'' is a bit harsh...

DiaGem, I just plugged numbers into the HCA to find a stone that fell just inside the GIA EX zone.


Table 54

Depth 62.6

CA 35.6 (would be rounded to 35.5, I realize)

PA 41.2


4.6 Good, only if price is your main criterion.

Change the table to 60, 5.5 Good, only if price is your main criterion.




Now, what would you call those?

 

[elle_chris]

steep/deep?

(still learning)

 

[Ellen]

Date: 3/14/2008 9:47:16 AM
Author: elle_chris
steep/deep?

(still learning)

Yes. You get an A!

 

[diagem]

Date: 3/14/2008 9:20:10 AM
Author: Ellen

Date: 3/14/2008 8:56:56 AM
Author: DiaGem
As much as I am NOT a big fan of GIA..., I think naming a RB that earned a EX cut grade by them a ''dog'' is a bit harsh...

DiaGem, I just plugged numbers into the HCA to find a stone that fell just inside the GIA EX zone.


Table 54

Depth 62.6

CA 35.6 (would be rounded to 35.5, I realize)

PA 41.2


4.6 Good, only if price is your main criterion.

Change the table to 60, 5.5 Good, only if price is your main criterion.




Now, what would you call those?

Ellen..., what is the meaning of the word "dog" in conjunction with a Diamond? Maybe I am not understanding the word?

 

[Ellen]

Date: 3/14/2008 10:50:15 AM
Author: DiaGem
Ellen..., what is the meaning of the word ''dog'' in conjunction with a Diamond? Maybe I am not understanding the word?

A poorly cut/poor performing stone. They may be cut to GIA EX standards, but I would bet part of my inhereitance they are not going to be pretty.

 

[lovehersomuch]

sorry to butt in but i didnt realize all this before.....

im also shopping for a loose diamond and the jewler im working with - Quest Jewelers - pretty much carries GIA stones and they have rated the diamonds in their own categories like signature ideal, ideal, premium, etc...

im getting a signature ideal/ideal cut diamond for my gf... does this mean the label of the cut isnt accurate and it would be in fact just an excellent cut diamond?

 

[Ellen]

Date: 3/14/2008 11:09:27 AM
Author: lovehersomuch
sorry to butt in but i didnt realize all this before.....

im also shopping for a loose diamond and the jewler im working with - Quest Jewelers - pretty much carries GIA stones and they have rated the diamonds in their own categories like signature ideal, ideal, premium, etc...

im getting a signature ideal/ideal cut diamond for my gf... does this mean the label of the cut isnt accurate and it would be in fact just an excellent cut diamond?

At best. AGS is the only one who has an "Ideal" cut grade. "Signature Ideal" is just Quest''s way of saying, this is the best they carry out of all their stones, I''m guessing.

Plug your stones numbers into the HCA and see what you get.

 

[diagem]

Date: 3/14/2008 10:57:04 AM
Author: Ellen

Date: 3/14/2008 10:50:15 AM
Author: DiaGem
Ellen..., what is the meaning of the word ''dog'' in conjunction with a Diamond? Maybe I am not understanding the word?

A poorly cut/poor performing stone. They may be cut to GIA EX standards, but I would bet part of my inhereitance they are not going to be pretty.

Just what I thought...

You have to understand where I am coming from..., to achieve a cut which would as you said "...a stone that fell just inside the GIA EX zone." is a hard task by any cutter! I know and see the cutters expressions when they put extra efforts to achieve those...

Now to categorize these cuts as "poor/poorly performers" or that they are not going to be pretty

is a tiny bit on the harsh side...

If thats the case..., OEC''s are Alien Dogs!!!

But I hear quite a few people thinking they are beautiful....

Ellen..., its not personal..., but I really sometimes think the numbers are throwing you guy''s out of proportions!

 

[Ellen]

Date: 3/14/2008 11:21:02 AM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 3/14/2008 10:57:04 AM
Author: Ellen

A poorly cut/poor performing stone. They may be cut to GIA EX standards, but I would bet part of my inhereitance they are not going to be pretty.

Just what I thought...

You have to understand where I am coming from..., to achieve a cut which would as you said ''...a stone that fell just inside the GIA EX zone.'' is a hard task by any cutter! I know and see the cutters expressions when they put extra efforts to achieve those...

Now to categorize these cuts as ''poor/poorly performers'' or that they are not going to be pretty

is a tiny bit on the harsh side...

If thats the case..., OEC''s are Alien Dogs!!!

But I hear quite a few people thinking they are beautiful....

Ellen..., its not personal..., but I really sometimes think the numbers are throwing you guy''s out of proportions!

I know that. And not from my end either.

However, we''re talking round brilliant cuts here, and to me, that changes things. (Are OEC''s cut steep/deep, or just steep? I honestly don''t know)

As for my "examples", if they''re not that bad, why isn''t WF, and Paul S., and Isee2, and others who cut outstanding stones, throwing those in the mix?

 

[Fly Girl]

Thanks for making the point, DiaGem.

My beautiful well cut 60/60 style diamond isn''t ideal or excellent, but it sure isn''t a dog, either. Nothing poor about it. It was hand-picked by my jeweler pre-PS, using his eyes, and he knows his stuff.

Sabina - When I purchased GIA graded stones for earrings recently, I used the HCA to make sure that my "GIA excellent" also fell within the parameters of AGS ideal. The point is that the GIA excellent category is so much broader, that if you want the very best cut (and who doesn''t!) it isn''t as automatic a call as going with an AGS ideal.

 

[sabinameister]

Wow, so much to learn on here, so my current 1.12 RB diamond is labeled excellent for the cut by GIA and I traded in an Ideal .81 cut AGS for it, so I was just hoping that I wasn''t getting dooped. I love it no matter what, it''s a beauty, I posted it on the ring bling board under My Tacori Bling if anyone needs to see it that has a good ye.

Sabina

 

[Ellen]

Flygirl, I seriously doubt your stone was cut to the EXTREME specs I gave as examples.

Let''s all keep that in mind. I''m talking stones that probably no one on this board owns. Again, extreme examples.

 

[diagem]

Date: 3/14/2008 11:34:20 AM
Author: Ellen

Date: 3/14/2008 11:21:02 AM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 3/14/2008 10:57:04 AM
Author: Ellen

A poorly cut/poor performing stone. They may be cut to GIA EX standards, but I would bet part of my inhereitance they are not going to be pretty.

Just what I thought...

You have to understand where I am coming from..., to achieve a cut which would as you said ''...a stone that fell just inside the GIA EX zone.'' is a hard task by any cutter! I know and see the cutters expressions when they put extra efforts to achieve those...

Now to categorize these cuts as ''poor/poorly performers'' or that they are not going to be pretty

is a tiny bit on the harsh side...

If thats the case..., OEC''s are Alien Dogs!!!

But I hear quite a few people thinking they are beautiful....

Ellen..., its not personal..., but I really sometimes think the numbers are throwing you guy''s out of proportions!

I know that. And not from my end either.

However, we''re talking round brilliant cuts here, and to me, that changes things. (Are OEC''s cut steep/deep, or just steep? I honestly don''t know)

As for my ''examples'', if they''re not that bad, why isn''t WF, and Paul S., and Isee2, and others who cut outstanding stones, throwing those in the mix?

There is a OEC jungle out there..., steep/deep, steeeeeep/deeeeep, shallow/shallow and everything that is in-between..., no rules!!! just as the term beauty combines with the word Diamond!

Why aren''t WF, Paul or the maker of Isee sell these??? There are a few answers to that one..., (maybe they can even comment on this question of yours...) Who knows.

One of the reasons I can say is..., it a "niche" business model..., low volume vs. high volume....

Majority prefer standard shapes...

,

Easier to sell..., like you explained..., if you have a round with the right numbers for sale..., maybe more than half the work is done...

To sell old-cuts..., (A) those truly amazing Diamonds are very hard to find..., and (B) they must sell with a story....

A lot of Diamond merchants dont have the time to story-tell...., they need to move NUMBERS!!!

Get it...? NUMBERS.

 

[oldminer]

While beauty and the stone you choose to buy are personal decisions, there has been a large amount of study in the field of what generally constitutes a beautiful object. What architecture has merit, what paintings have beauty, why we like certain mountain top vistas, why soap bubbles have beauty. This study certainly has included why we see beauty in diamonds.

It is human nature which makes us attempt to put artificial categories on "things". The world goes on all about us in a natural state and needs no categories yet we force them upon most everythingwe have interest in. There is no external reason why GIA has used a broader range than AGS in their top category, but it was been a business decision. YOU must select which diamond to choose regardless of who graded it and what category it falls into. I''d take a guess that all AGS 0, most AGS 1''s many AGS2''s fall within the GIA Excellent category. Nearly all of these diamonds will look very nice and some will be what many in the trade would classify as "Ideal" even if AGS disagreed. The term "IDEAL" belongs to no one and to everyone. It means different things to different people.

I suggest you shop for GIA Excellent and AGS 0 and AGS 1 stones to obtain a diamond near the top of the appearance and performance range. Ultimately you will choose with your eye and within your chosen budget. Using the HCA will help you find good deals, too. My own preference is to use the word "Ideal" very sparingly. Any superlative used too often looses its primary purpose because the top grade of all category systems is supposed to be uncommon, rare and special, rather than all over the place. Used properly, "Ideal" connotes a proper meaning. Overused, it means little more than "special-buy me!"

 

[diagem]

Date: 3/14/2008 12:06:08 PM
Author: oldminer
While beauty and the stone you choose to buy are personal decisions, there has been a large amount of study in the field of what generally constitutes a beautiful object. What architecture has merit, what paintings have beauty, why we like certain mountain top vistas, why soap bubbles have beauty. This study certainly has included why we see beauty in diamonds.

It is human nature which makes us attempt to put artificial categories on ''things''. The world goes on all about us in a natural state and needs no categories yet we force them upon most everythingwe have interest in. There is no external reason why GIA has used a broader range than AGS in their top category, but it was been a business decision. YOU must select which diamond to choose regardless of who graded it and what category it falls into. I''d take a guess that all AGS 0, most AGS 1''s many AGS2''s fall within the GIA Excellent category. Nearly all of these diamonds will look very nice and some will be what many in the trade would classify as ''Ideal'' even if AGS disagreed. The term ''IDEAL'' belongs to no one and to everyone. It means different things to different people.

I suggest you shop for GIA Excellent and AGS 0 and AGS 1 stones to obtain a diamond near the top of the appearance and performance range. Ultimately you will choose with your eye and within your chosen budget. Using the HCA will help you find good deals, too. My own preference is to use the word ''Ideal'' very sparingly. Any superlative used too often looses its primary purpose because the top grade of all category systems is supposed to be uncommon, rare and special, rather than all over the place. Used properly, ''Ideal'' connotes a proper meaning. Overused, it means little more than ''special-buy me!''

Dave..., nice and wise writing!!!

Top....?

Who know what the future will bring us???????

Can today''s top become tomorrows "dogs"?

SHHH!!! I hope Ellen doesnt not see this one

 

[Ellen]

DiaGem, I get what you're saying, don't get hung up on the numbers. And to a certain extent, I wholeheartedly agree. But let's be serious here, people who cut exceptional stones, I believe (and some have said as much), cut to those standards because they produce stunning results. And that is important to them, and many of us. I can't believe you would honestly try to tell me that one of the examples I gave would come anywhere near the caliber of the aforementioned cutters stones, and that anyone would find them more desirable. I'm just not buying it.

 

[diagem]

Date: 3/14/2008 12:19:19 PM
Author: Ellen
DiaGem, I get what you''re saying, don''t get hung up on the numbers. And to a certain extent, I wholeheartedly agree. But let''s be serious here, people who cut exceptional stones, I believe (and some have said as much), cut to those standards because they produce stunning results. And that is important to them, and many of us. I can''t believe you would honestly try to tell me that one of the examples I gave would come anywhere near the caliber of the aforementioned cutters stones, and that anyone would find them more desirable. I''m just not buying it.

Ellen..., even the best cutters out there end up with (what you call) dogs..., (Force major)

What do they do with their dog''s...? Well they find buyers that think they are beautiful Diamonds..., and they really are!!! (what can I say..., its reality...

)

Not every stone I cut finishes the way I hoped it would!!!

Ellen... (reality check!!!) Most people do not see a difference between an AGS 5 or lower vs. 0

. Confused? Hey..., most Diamonds in this world are not cut to PS standards....

There is a lid for every trash-can..., (positively expressed)!!!

 

[Ellen]

Ok DiaGem.

 

[diagem]

Date: 3/14/2008 12:33:51 PM
Author: Ellen
Ok DiaGem.

I''m game....

 

[oldminer]

A dog from a top cutter is an AKC Registered Purebred compared to the low commercial, mixed breed, mutts that some unfortunate, uninformed, impulisve buyers end up with. A purebred English Bulldog is one ugly dog even if they make wonderful pets. My pure bred Shih Tzu''s are cute as little stuffed rag dolls, but they don''t make great security guards. However, if you go to a dog show, the pure bred dogs all have their admirers who think their chosen dog is the most beautiful. Go figure!

We can clearly measure light performance today with diamonds. We can tell consumers a lot about characterisitics of individual diamonds, too. But we should not imply that performance always equates with beauty in some directly mathmatical way. There are shared attributes between performance and most characterisitics of generally agreed good looks, but no direct relationship exists which will overcome personal choice of what is most beautiful. Thankfully, the appreciation of beauty is not mathmatical. It took me two tries to get past trigonometry in college. A merciful professor helped me get my gentleman''s "C" with a promise I made not to go further in his field.

 

[MikeRato1]

i agree with oldminer, except... "mutts that some unfortunate, uninformed, impulisve buyers end up with." some of us prefer to have "mutts" and rescue them from a shelter where they do not belong. but thats a different subject!