crystalheart1
Brilliant_Rock
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2007
- Messages
- 512
Illegal takes refuge in Chicago Church
- Thread starter YMA
- Start date
- Status
Chiefneil, You are absolutely right, my ex-husband is Nigerian and I know some of his friends had family members that did that.
They go to have the baby anywhere but in Nigerian, one girl went to France......but guess what they wouldn't let her leave the county until the complete hospital bill was paid. Her husband in nigerian had to send money everymonth to help her pay.
I completely understand wanting a better life for yourself and your family, but why not band together in your own country and demand the same perks we have in America.
They go to have the baby anywhere but in Nigerian, one girl went to France......but guess what they wouldn't let her leave the county until the complete hospital bill was paid. Her husband in nigerian had to send money everymonth to help her pay.
I completely understand wanting a better life for yourself and your family, but why not band together in your own country and demand the same perks we have in America.
chiefneil
Shiny_Rock
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2007
- Messages
- 174
The frustrating thing is that their behavior is completely rational in an economic or behavioral sense. I would do the same in their position, to be honest. The fault really lies with us, and by that I mean the US and our government, for permitting and encouraging this behavior.
BTW, for all the Mexican government regularly protests our attempts at border control and treatment of illegals, they have a terrible record in their own country. I read an article that Mexico gets many illegals coming up from South America. According to the article, those illegals are routinely beaten and robbed (and worse) by police and generally treated like dirt. It was interesting to me that Mexico apparrently has a similar problem
Chiefneil, I saw that too and laughed......talk about double standard.
And we can''t buy property in Mexico unless we are citizens, but now you don''t even need a social to get a home loan here.
I agree the fault is with the government, let''s help our poor people here obtain a better standard of living before we consider helping others.
And we can''t buy property in Mexico unless we are citizens, but now you don''t even need a social to get a home loan here.
I agree the fault is with the government, let''s help our poor people here obtain a better standard of living before we consider helping others.
luckystar112
Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2007
- Messages
- 3,962
I don''t know, I mean it could be seen as the opposite...look at the great lengths a mother will go through to give her child the opportunities of an American citizen?
It kinda reminds me of the movie Maria Full of Grace. She had been to the country before, saw the opportunities here, and tried to ensure her child would be born here.
(Of course it could be the opposite...but man that woman would really have no moral compus to get pregnant and be responsible for a life for 16+ yrs just to have a minimum wage job in the United States.)
It kinda reminds me of the movie Maria Full of Grace. She had been to the country before, saw the opportunities here, and tried to ensure her child would be born here.
(Of course it could be the opposite...but man that woman would really have no moral compus to get pregnant and be responsible for a life for 16+ yrs just to have a minimum wage job in the United States.)
luckystar112
Ideal_Rock
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- Jan 8, 2007
- Messages
- 3,962
crystalheart1
Brilliant_Rock
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2007
- Messages
- 512
No - I am sorry , but this women "had" the baby to use it as a vehicle to stay here, and use the Church as a safe haven
It was not like she had a child and came here to better his or her life. Why would bring a child into such an illegal predicament...
This is abuse on all level, starting with her using a stolen id,, giving birth - She is no position to provide for the child..etc
We are being taken advantage of over and over again
It was not like she had a child and came here to better his or her life. Why would bring a child into such an illegal predicament...
This is abuse on all level, starting with her using a stolen id,, giving birth - She is no position to provide for the child..etc
We are being taken advantage of over and over again
TravelingGal
Super_Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2004
- Messages
- 17,193
Well as an immigrant myself and the wife to someone who immigrated because of me, I have pretty unforgiving views on this subject. But I also agree that it''s a problem not easily (understatement) solved.
My father wanted to move here for a better life for his family. With extremely limted English, he typed letters for months to find an employer who would sponsor us. He succeeded. He worked the Valdez Pipelines for sometime and we lived in Alaska. While it certainly would be harder to come here from Korea illegally, my father did it the right and legal way.
As for TGuy, we went through a gut wrenching process with the Diversity Lottery, which is probably one of the easiest ways to get in, and it still was tough. I sat there in the U.S. consulate in Sydney with my heart thumping as one person assessed his application and had the power to change the course of my life. It was nuts.
Then there are families still applying to get their loved ones here. There has been talk of abolishing the Diversity Lottery and allocating those 50,000 visas for families, as the current wait can be TEN YEARS to reunite them. Meanwhile, people are crossing our borders everyday illegally while others who are by the book suffer and miss seeing their loved ones grow up.
Unfortunately this is a country whose economy needs immigrants...even illegal ones. Ask the rich homeowner if they would be willing to pay quadruple to get their lawn moved by a legal resident and he''ll balk. Yet he thinks they shouldn''t be here. People have to put their money where their mouth is, but it is no easy fix, if possible at all.
I sat there for years and worked in my parents store watching many illegal immigrants get free healthcare at the clinic across the street while we were not eligible because we had income...but not enough to afford healthcare. We drank nearly expired milk, mystery canned food with labels torn off that couldn''t be sold and meat which was borderline rancid while the best went to families who were on food stamps. I watched them come in and buy a 10 cent piece of candy over and over again with one dollar food stamps and getting 90 cents in change because that was the policy, then turning around and buying alcohol.
Am I biased? You bet.
My father wanted to move here for a better life for his family. With extremely limted English, he typed letters for months to find an employer who would sponsor us. He succeeded. He worked the Valdez Pipelines for sometime and we lived in Alaska. While it certainly would be harder to come here from Korea illegally, my father did it the right and legal way.
As for TGuy, we went through a gut wrenching process with the Diversity Lottery, which is probably one of the easiest ways to get in, and it still was tough. I sat there in the U.S. consulate in Sydney with my heart thumping as one person assessed his application and had the power to change the course of my life. It was nuts.
Then there are families still applying to get their loved ones here. There has been talk of abolishing the Diversity Lottery and allocating those 50,000 visas for families, as the current wait can be TEN YEARS to reunite them. Meanwhile, people are crossing our borders everyday illegally while others who are by the book suffer and miss seeing their loved ones grow up.
Unfortunately this is a country whose economy needs immigrants...even illegal ones. Ask the rich homeowner if they would be willing to pay quadruple to get their lawn moved by a legal resident and he''ll balk. Yet he thinks they shouldn''t be here. People have to put their money where their mouth is, but it is no easy fix, if possible at all.
I sat there for years and worked in my parents store watching many illegal immigrants get free healthcare at the clinic across the street while we were not eligible because we had income...but not enough to afford healthcare. We drank nearly expired milk, mystery canned food with labels torn off that couldn''t be sold and meat which was borderline rancid while the best went to families who were on food stamps. I watched them come in and buy a 10 cent piece of candy over and over again with one dollar food stamps and getting 90 cents in change because that was the policy, then turning around and buying alcohol.
Am I biased? You bet.
Any child born on U.S. soil is a United States citizen; entitled to all the benefits of any other citizen.
Whether this law should be changed is a debate to have (though it''s been a long tradition around the world from Singapore to England)
So, the child''s legal status would not be in question. If the U.S. did send the mother back, and she took her baby with her, at anytime, that child could come back to the U.S. legally (for school, for work). This is a huge advantage and therefore I don''t think irresponsible to the well-being of the child.
The immigration laws in this country do have to change because right now it''s broken.
When there is work, when both an employer wants the immigrant labor (whether it''s computer programming or farm labor), and the immigrant wants to stay, it is unacceptable that this transaction has to happen illegally. But it does because the U.S. congress can''t come up with a solution that will solve the problem and sound good in the press.
Since the transaction needs to happen illegaly, we do not enforce our borders properly due to pressure from the companies that need the labor. Further, since it is illegal, employers abuse the process and the U.S. gov''t has to pay for the health care of the immigrant instead of the employer paying. Finally, since the immigrants are illegal, they never become part of the system and therefore it''s harder for them to integrate (NOTE: their children seem to integrate fine once the ESL kinks were worked out, as many are u.s. citizens, go to school etc.)
This creates a huge security thereat and huge costs to the American people.
Further, the government is waaaay to backed up in processing green cards and visas etc. A "simple" application (such as spouse of a u.s. citizen) is being held up unecessarily.
NOTE: At least presently, in order to get food stamps one needs to be a legal immigrant into the u.s. and must prove their status with a valid social security number.
Whether this law should be changed is a debate to have (though it''s been a long tradition around the world from Singapore to England)
So, the child''s legal status would not be in question. If the U.S. did send the mother back, and she took her baby with her, at anytime, that child could come back to the U.S. legally (for school, for work). This is a huge advantage and therefore I don''t think irresponsible to the well-being of the child.
The immigration laws in this country do have to change because right now it''s broken.
When there is work, when both an employer wants the immigrant labor (whether it''s computer programming or farm labor), and the immigrant wants to stay, it is unacceptable that this transaction has to happen illegally. But it does because the U.S. congress can''t come up with a solution that will solve the problem and sound good in the press.
Since the transaction needs to happen illegaly, we do not enforce our borders properly due to pressure from the companies that need the labor. Further, since it is illegal, employers abuse the process and the U.S. gov''t has to pay for the health care of the immigrant instead of the employer paying. Finally, since the immigrants are illegal, they never become part of the system and therefore it''s harder for them to integrate (NOTE: their children seem to integrate fine once the ESL kinks were worked out, as many are u.s. citizens, go to school etc.)
This creates a huge security thereat and huge costs to the American people.
Further, the government is waaaay to backed up in processing green cards and visas etc. A "simple" application (such as spouse of a u.s. citizen) is being held up unecessarily.
NOTE: At least presently, in order to get food stamps one needs to be a legal immigrant into the u.s. and must prove their status with a valid social security number.
oshinbreez
Brilliant_Rock
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2006
- Messages
- 1,135
This was sent to me a few years ago. Something to think about.
Let''s say I break into your house
A lady wrote the best letter in the Editorials in ages!! It explains
things better than all the baloney you hear on TV.
Recently large demonstrations have taken place across the country
protesting the fact that Congress is finally addressing the issue of
illegal immigration. Certain people are angry that the US might protect
it’s own borders, might make it harder to sneak into this country and,
once here, to stay indefinitely. Let me see if I correctly understand
the thinking behind these protests.
Let''s say I break into your house. Let''s say that when you discover me
in your house, you insist that I leave. But I say, "I''ve made all the beds
and washed the dishes and did the laundry and swept the floors; I''ve
done all the things you don''t like to do. I''m hard-working and honest
(except for when I broke into your house).
According to the protesters, not only must you let me stay, you must
add me to your family''s insurance plan, educate my kids, and provide other
benefits to me and to my family (my husband will do your yard work
because he too is hard-working and honest, except for that breaking in part).
If you try to call the police or force me out, I will call my friends who will
picket your house carrying signs that proclaim my right to be there.
It''s only fair, after all, because you have a nicer house than I do, and
I''m just trying to better myself. I''m hard-working and honest, um, except
for well, you know.
And what a deal it is for me!! I live in your house, contributing only a
fraction of the cost of my keep, and there is nothing you can do about it
without being accused of selfishness, prejudice and being an
anti-housebreaker.
Oh yeah, and I want you to learn my language so you can communicate with me
Let''s say I break into your house
A lady wrote the best letter in the Editorials in ages!! It explains
things better than all the baloney you hear on TV.
Recently large demonstrations have taken place across the country
protesting the fact that Congress is finally addressing the issue of
illegal immigration. Certain people are angry that the US might protect
it’s own borders, might make it harder to sneak into this country and,
once here, to stay indefinitely. Let me see if I correctly understand
the thinking behind these protests.
Let''s say I break into your house. Let''s say that when you discover me
in your house, you insist that I leave. But I say, "I''ve made all the beds
and washed the dishes and did the laundry and swept the floors; I''ve
done all the things you don''t like to do. I''m hard-working and honest
(except for when I broke into your house).
According to the protesters, not only must you let me stay, you must
add me to your family''s insurance plan, educate my kids, and provide other
benefits to me and to my family (my husband will do your yard work
because he too is hard-working and honest, except for that breaking in part).
If you try to call the police or force me out, I will call my friends who will
picket your house carrying signs that proclaim my right to be there.
It''s only fair, after all, because you have a nicer house than I do, and
I''m just trying to better myself. I''m hard-working and honest, um, except
for well, you know.
And what a deal it is for me!! I live in your house, contributing only a
fraction of the cost of my keep, and there is nothing you can do about it
without being accused of selfishness, prejudice and being an
anti-housebreaker.
Oh yeah, and I want you to learn my language so you can communicate with me
rainbowtrout
Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2005
- Messages
- 2,105
So, this woman needs to go to jail or be deported. She broke the law, repeatedly. Her child can stay in America and go into foster care just like other children of moms who break the law, or they can go home to Mexico.
That said:
1) In my opinion we need to drastically increase the number of "brainpower" educational visas in this country. What we have right now is people from, for example, India to get degrees at our best universities. Afterwards they cannot find a job and take that education and skillset home. If they were to stay, contribute, and become citizens, this would benefit us all greatly instead of the "braindrain" we have right now.
2)If you want to stop illegal immegration you have to go after the employers. You think big agriculture companies, construction companies, and places like WallMart don''t turn a blind eye? As long as they can hire illegals with impunity NOTHING is going to change. You have to eliminate the market. And to do that, you have to be willing to pay the higher costs for someone to deliver your pizza, clean your house, and mow your lawn. Which Americans seem unwilling to do.
3) The language issue. I feel quite strongly about this. Much of what I feel is racism in the illegal immigrant debate is tied up in language. The Southwestern states are ALREADY bi-lingual. I lived there for a long time, I know. My brother went to school there, so I am quite aware of the problems.
It''s happened, can''t shut the barn door after the horse is gone. And here''s my radical statement---I think we should start capitalizing on this as a STRENGTH instead of battling for an "English only" environment. If you teach children EARLY they will learn English. What we are seeing right now is the first generations not speaking it well, just like every other generation of immigrants. What has changed is the willingness of gov''t institutions to accomadate it more than in the past. I would tend to rather see us pour money into adult English literacy classes than bi-lingual flyers at the DMV, but on the whole it doesn''t fuss me overmuch.
So instead of talking about banning Spanish, as some small communities now are, what if we drew strength from its presence in our school systems? After living abroad for a year I have heard more than my fair share of jokes about Americans and our monolinguistic ways ("what do you call someone who can only speak one language?? An American!). Instead of only teaching Spanish-speaking children English, teach English-speaking children Spanish and let them teach each other at a young age. Teach proper Spanish grammar AND proper English grammar. Have them read the great classics of Spanish literature in high school along with those of English.
It''s about time Americans woke up and realized that we need to teach foreign languages agressively and early, and this is the perfect opportunity. I started French at 13 and I will always be far, far from someone who started at 6.
That said:
1) In my opinion we need to drastically increase the number of "brainpower" educational visas in this country. What we have right now is people from, for example, India to get degrees at our best universities. Afterwards they cannot find a job and take that education and skillset home. If they were to stay, contribute, and become citizens, this would benefit us all greatly instead of the "braindrain" we have right now.
2)If you want to stop illegal immegration you have to go after the employers. You think big agriculture companies, construction companies, and places like WallMart don''t turn a blind eye? As long as they can hire illegals with impunity NOTHING is going to change. You have to eliminate the market. And to do that, you have to be willing to pay the higher costs for someone to deliver your pizza, clean your house, and mow your lawn. Which Americans seem unwilling to do.
3) The language issue. I feel quite strongly about this. Much of what I feel is racism in the illegal immigrant debate is tied up in language. The Southwestern states are ALREADY bi-lingual. I lived there for a long time, I know. My brother went to school there, so I am quite aware of the problems.
It''s happened, can''t shut the barn door after the horse is gone. And here''s my radical statement---I think we should start capitalizing on this as a STRENGTH instead of battling for an "English only" environment. If you teach children EARLY they will learn English. What we are seeing right now is the first generations not speaking it well, just like every other generation of immigrants. What has changed is the willingness of gov''t institutions to accomadate it more than in the past. I would tend to rather see us pour money into adult English literacy classes than bi-lingual flyers at the DMV, but on the whole it doesn''t fuss me overmuch.
So instead of talking about banning Spanish, as some small communities now are, what if we drew strength from its presence in our school systems? After living abroad for a year I have heard more than my fair share of jokes about Americans and our monolinguistic ways ("what do you call someone who can only speak one language?? An American!). Instead of only teaching Spanish-speaking children English, teach English-speaking children Spanish and let them teach each other at a young age. Teach proper Spanish grammar AND proper English grammar. Have them read the great classics of Spanish literature in high school along with those of English.
It''s about time Americans woke up and realized that we need to teach foreign languages agressively and early, and this is the perfect opportunity. I started French at 13 and I will always be far, far from someone who started at 6.
luckystar112
Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2007
- Messages
- 3,962
Totally agree about going after the employers. Living in TX, I have seen first hand how employers take advantage of the illegal immigrants. I used to be an assistant manager of a restaurant, and part of my job was to obtain identification from employees and enter them into the system. Of course, it was my boss who did the hiring, and I would have to turn a blind eye to the fake documents that I would recieve. If the social security card or green card looked too fake, my boss would send them away until they got better ones. A lot of times employees would go back to their home country for a few months and come back and we''d rehire them with their new name and identification.
The minimum wage down here is $5.35. I remember a few years ago when there was a big debate whether or not to raise the minimum wage to $7. The owner of the restaurant was freaking out---he was sure that if it happened it would mean that he''d be out of business.
As for the language issue, I''m a big believer that you should try to learn the language of any place that you go. I went to Italy, and tried my hardest to speak to them in their language. People appreciate it when you at least try. At my old job, I worked with illegal immigrants as well as immigrants that had been in the U.S. for close to 20 years...it was amazing to me that they wouldn''t even TRY. The one worker who had been in the U.S. for twenty years still pretended he didn''t understand english.
With that being said, in the six years I worked there...a couple of people did learn the language (the ones that were here legally and hoping to stay) and one of them took english classes at night. I should also mention that this company probably only had 30 employees at a time, so I''m not trying to speak for the majority.
It has been very hard for me to find a job that doesn''t require you to be bilingual in Spanish. I took all of my foreign language classes in French, since I grew up in Maine and pretty much all of us up there have french ancestry. (And french channels on tv!
) I have a friend who just became a teacher....she has many spanish speaking children in her classroom, and since she doesn''t know a word of the language she says it is very hard for her to communicate with them. She worries about them! If they can''t understand her, and she can''t understand them, are they learning anything? She teaches 3rd grade...I''m sure it''s not too late for them to learn a new language, but it''s alarming that these children have made it that far in school without knowing any English yet. She''s not trained to teach someone a new language, and it takes away from her study plan. But what do you do? Not put the kids in school?
I also think that it''s so easy to say, "Well American''s just don''t want these jobs." I think that''s BS. Maine has the least amount of immigrants in the country, and gutters are cleaned, landscaping is done, trash is picked up...all of those "dirty jobs" that people are so quick to believe only illegals will do...get done. And the economy is booming up there, so people don''t mind paying more because THEY are getting paid more. I think when it comes down to it...it''s really about greed, on both ends. I think that both ends give and take the same amount.
I don''t think it''s racism to talk about immigrants. It''s so easy to call it racism because you are talking about people of color who speak a different language. If the same thing was going on, except all the immigrants were english speaking brittains, I don''t think it would be a racism issue. In my case I was talking a lot about people from Mexico and Central America because that''s what we have most of here in TX. (I have no idea about other states.) But I can say that in Maine we have a pretty large cambodian population, and there have never been any extreme language barriers--even with the first generation immigrants.
The minimum wage down here is $5.35. I remember a few years ago when there was a big debate whether or not to raise the minimum wage to $7. The owner of the restaurant was freaking out---he was sure that if it happened it would mean that he''d be out of business.
As for the language issue, I''m a big believer that you should try to learn the language of any place that you go. I went to Italy, and tried my hardest to speak to them in their language. People appreciate it when you at least try. At my old job, I worked with illegal immigrants as well as immigrants that had been in the U.S. for close to 20 years...it was amazing to me that they wouldn''t even TRY. The one worker who had been in the U.S. for twenty years still pretended he didn''t understand english.
With that being said, in the six years I worked there...a couple of people did learn the language (the ones that were here legally and hoping to stay) and one of them took english classes at night. I should also mention that this company probably only had 30 employees at a time, so I''m not trying to speak for the majority.
It has been very hard for me to find a job that doesn''t require you to be bilingual in Spanish. I took all of my foreign language classes in French, since I grew up in Maine and pretty much all of us up there have french ancestry. (And french channels on tv!
I also think that it''s so easy to say, "Well American''s just don''t want these jobs." I think that''s BS. Maine has the least amount of immigrants in the country, and gutters are cleaned, landscaping is done, trash is picked up...all of those "dirty jobs" that people are so quick to believe only illegals will do...get done. And the economy is booming up there, so people don''t mind paying more because THEY are getting paid more. I think when it comes down to it...it''s really about greed, on both ends. I think that both ends give and take the same amount.
I don''t think it''s racism to talk about immigrants. It''s so easy to call it racism because you are talking about people of color who speak a different language. If the same thing was going on, except all the immigrants were english speaking brittains, I don''t think it would be a racism issue. In my case I was talking a lot about people from Mexico and Central America because that''s what we have most of here in TX. (I have no idea about other states.) But I can say that in Maine we have a pretty large cambodian population, and there have never been any extreme language barriers--even with the first generation immigrants.
WorkingHardforSmallRewards
Brilliant_Rock
- Joined
- Jun 5, 2007
- Messages
- 1,236
well, first of all, don't forget that we still haven't seen the whole story, we just got the gist of it, and I can't help but think that the greatest fault in regards to the stolen ID, if that was in fact what happened-- I have a hard time believing that exactly how she managed to pull it off, lay with the airport.
Also remember when you read the following that I have a Japanese girlfriend who almost had an opportunity to begin working in America, but right at that moment the
Illegal hispanic immigrants began rioting and protesting for "rights." The company we were talking with told us they were sorry, but now that there was so much bruuhaha with the illegal immigrants it had gotten more difficult to bring in internationals for work, and so they retracted there interest in her employment. Very upsetting for us.
And before you go criticizing my father for having illegal immigrants working for him recognize that the qualities that I attribute to American employees at our buisness is from NUMEROUS experiences. Also the illegal immigrants working for us provided us with SS. Cards initially. then after sending them off to be verified we were sent back a letter telling us that they were false, but that it is illegal to fire them just because there SS cards are invalid. I don't know all the details myself, but...anyway, that was the case at the time of hiring.
I can't say much about Maine or gutters getting cleaned. But my father owns a rock masonry buisness down in South Carolina. We end up paying our illegal immigrants much much more than our legal immigrants generally get, and when they do make as much or more they act as I will describe in a moment. There are some jobs, like cutting the grass and cleaning gutters, that many a happy intelligent person will take on, some of them younger some of them older. But then there are other jobs. Jobs that are truly slave-type labor, hard back breaking work that involves long hours in the sun and on roofs where your fingers turn into stone themselves after only a few days...labor that, when I work there during the summer, makes me bow down in respect to those men that live that life on a daily basis--and they do it happily! We even sing while we work! (though thankfully I wasn't singing with them this summer
What ends up being the case, in our situation though perhaps other states or counties have managed to avoid this phenomenon (though I suspect if you head out to the actual construction sites you might find that those states with low illegal immigrant numbers have there main concentration there) and those of the numerous other such employers I have spoken with while working, is that most hard working American's are given enough opportunities throughout there life that, if they take the opportunities, they can at he very least, get a job better than those hardest most strenuous slave type labor jobs. That is part of that "American dream" everybody is always talking about. The vast majority of American's are simply given the opportunity if they choose to take it and are able to do it.
Don't get me wrong, that is not the case 100% of the time. There are a number of Americans who do those jobs that are intelligent hard-working Americans, like my father, who I am certainly not putting down (note though that he choose not to do it in his youth but had an attitude change later). But the vast majority of the time the American employees of our business are either lazy--hence they did poorly in school and our now working with us--or they are...lacking in intelligence. When a person can't figure out that they should bring the wheel-barrow to the pile of rocks on the other side of the yard rather than the pile of rocks to the wheel-barrow (because there is a car in the way that they could just wheel it around) it can be a very expensive and time-consuming obstacle.
To make matters worse, the very few hard working Americans that we have had, and that I have spoken with on the job-sites, often take on the attitude that as they get a raise they will work less hours because then they can make the same money with less work--so why keep working, just for extra money? because they are needed at work? No way. What this usual translates into is just not showing up, not calling, and leaving sites in the middle of a job because they already made X amount of dollars in that day or week.
However, think about what it takes for an Illegal immigrant to get here? They have to have the intelligenceto seek out a means to get here, discipline enough to save up enough money to pay guides to lead them across the desert or however they choose to cross the border, pay for fake ids, etc. They have to have a real desire to grow and improve themselves, a desire to learn and a desire to work hard for their lives, futures and families. You can argue all day long that they are doing it the wrong way, and even an immoral way, thats fine and probably true in most cases.
But the fact is the reason they don't have easier lives is not because they aren't smart enough or dedicated enough, its because they didn't have the opportunities. Thus they are putting there intelligence and hard work into finding a way to make those opportunities for themselves, following the moral guidelines indoctrinated into them when they grew up--which is of course often going to be a direct reflection of the economic stability of that region.
What it comes down to as an employer is, regardless of any cons or pros, they have the attitude that nothing will stand in the way of them taking care of there families lives and getting as much money as they are able to in order to provide for them. That is a very desirable trait to have in an employee that you are telling to carry 2 -5 tons of rock up to the roof of a house by hand two buckets at a time, mix mortar by hand and lay it all on on the chimney.
Also remember when you read the following that I have a Japanese girlfriend who almost had an opportunity to begin working in America, but right at that moment the
Illegal hispanic immigrants began rioting and protesting for "rights." The company we were talking with told us they were sorry, but now that there was so much bruuhaha with the illegal immigrants it had gotten more difficult to bring in internationals for work, and so they retracted there interest in her employment. Very upsetting for us.
And before you go criticizing my father for having illegal immigrants working for him recognize that the qualities that I attribute to American employees at our buisness is from NUMEROUS experiences. Also the illegal immigrants working for us provided us with SS. Cards initially. then after sending them off to be verified we were sent back a letter telling us that they were false, but that it is illegal to fire them just because there SS cards are invalid. I don't know all the details myself, but...anyway, that was the case at the time of hiring.
I can't say much about Maine or gutters getting cleaned. But my father owns a rock masonry buisness down in South Carolina. We end up paying our illegal immigrants much much more than our legal immigrants generally get, and when they do make as much or more they act as I will describe in a moment. There are some jobs, like cutting the grass and cleaning gutters, that many a happy intelligent person will take on, some of them younger some of them older. But then there are other jobs. Jobs that are truly slave-type labor, hard back breaking work that involves long hours in the sun and on roofs where your fingers turn into stone themselves after only a few days...labor that, when I work there during the summer, makes me bow down in respect to those men that live that life on a daily basis--and they do it happily! We even sing while we work! (though thankfully I wasn't singing with them this summer
What ends up being the case, in our situation though perhaps other states or counties have managed to avoid this phenomenon (though I suspect if you head out to the actual construction sites you might find that those states with low illegal immigrant numbers have there main concentration there) and those of the numerous other such employers I have spoken with while working, is that most hard working American's are given enough opportunities throughout there life that, if they take the opportunities, they can at he very least, get a job better than those hardest most strenuous slave type labor jobs. That is part of that "American dream" everybody is always talking about. The vast majority of American's are simply given the opportunity if they choose to take it and are able to do it.
Don't get me wrong, that is not the case 100% of the time. There are a number of Americans who do those jobs that are intelligent hard-working Americans, like my father, who I am certainly not putting down (note though that he choose not to do it in his youth but had an attitude change later). But the vast majority of the time the American employees of our business are either lazy--hence they did poorly in school and our now working with us--or they are...lacking in intelligence. When a person can't figure out that they should bring the wheel-barrow to the pile of rocks on the other side of the yard rather than the pile of rocks to the wheel-barrow (because there is a car in the way that they could just wheel it around) it can be a very expensive and time-consuming obstacle.
To make matters worse, the very few hard working Americans that we have had, and that I have spoken with on the job-sites, often take on the attitude that as they get a raise they will work less hours because then they can make the same money with less work--so why keep working, just for extra money? because they are needed at work? No way. What this usual translates into is just not showing up, not calling, and leaving sites in the middle of a job because they already made X amount of dollars in that day or week.
However, think about what it takes for an Illegal immigrant to get here? They have to have the intelligenceto seek out a means to get here, discipline enough to save up enough money to pay guides to lead them across the desert or however they choose to cross the border, pay for fake ids, etc. They have to have a real desire to grow and improve themselves, a desire to learn and a desire to work hard for their lives, futures and families. You can argue all day long that they are doing it the wrong way, and even an immoral way, thats fine and probably true in most cases.
But the fact is the reason they don't have easier lives is not because they aren't smart enough or dedicated enough, its because they didn't have the opportunities. Thus they are putting there intelligence and hard work into finding a way to make those opportunities for themselves, following the moral guidelines indoctrinated into them when they grew up--which is of course often going to be a direct reflection of the economic stability of that region.
What it comes down to as an employer is, regardless of any cons or pros, they have the attitude that nothing will stand in the way of them taking care of there families lives and getting as much money as they are able to in order to provide for them. That is a very desirable trait to have in an employee that you are telling to carry 2 -5 tons of rock up to the roof of a house by hand two buckets at a time, mix mortar by hand and lay it all on on the chimney.
luckystar112
Ideal_Rock
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I agree with you WHFSR...
And just for the record I want to say that I think it is great that America is able to offer so much opportunity to people who need it. I''ve never been to Mexico or seen that conditions that many people live in, but I know that their government is pretty much corrupt and that there is a lot more to it than what we see on a postcard of cancun. We are so lucky to live in America, and I really hope that in the future we make it easier for those who have good intentions to make a life for themselves so that they don''t have to resort to breaking the law.
And just for the record I want to say that I think it is great that America is able to offer so much opportunity to people who need it. I''ve never been to Mexico or seen that conditions that many people live in, but I know that their government is pretty much corrupt and that there is a lot more to it than what we see on a postcard of cancun. We are so lucky to live in America, and I really hope that in the future we make it easier for those who have good intentions to make a life for themselves so that they don''t have to resort to breaking the law.
Richard Sherwood
Ideal_Rock
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In 20 years the Hispanic race will no longer be a minority in the United States.
I saw it happen in El Paso (where I was raised), and now it is happening here in Florida and throughout the United States.
It''s a continuation of the saga of so many races coming to the United States for refuge and the chance at a new and better life. That''s what America is all about. Freedom.
Me? I''m taking Spanish lessons...
I saw it happen in El Paso (where I was raised), and now it is happening here in Florida and throughout the United States.
It''s a continuation of the saga of so many races coming to the United States for refuge and the chance at a new and better life. That''s what America is all about. Freedom.
Me? I''m taking Spanish lessons...
nytemist
Brilliant_Rock
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- 962
I stayed out of this since I have really stong views on kicking out people who got here illegally, but I just saw this-
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20284646/
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20284646/
TravelingGal
Super_Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2004
- Messages
- 17,193
"How dare they arrest this woman?" Give me a break. The law is the law.
Another longer latimes article. http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-elvira20aug20,0,978382.story?coll=la-home-center
I have no problem with any minority becoming the majority, as long as they do it legally.
And yes, America is about immigrants and a chance for a better life. I fully support that. America is about freedom. Yes, true. America is also about LAWS as well, whether they are needing improvement or not. I mean, if I were to say, c''mon...America is about freedom, so that means I should be able to do whatever the hell I want, does that really fly? I don''t think so.
America offers freedom to law-abiding citizens/residents. There are consequences for those that do not, including taking AWAY their freedom. This lady did not follow the law. She says she loves this country and wants to be here but has no respect for the rules that govern it, nor does she have any respect for the people who are waiting patiently to get in the legal way. Why are her wants and needs more important than theirs?
In America, we know how to queue. Get in line, lady.
Another longer latimes article. http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-elvira20aug20,0,978382.story?coll=la-home-center
I have no problem with any minority becoming the majority, as long as they do it legally.
And yes, America is about immigrants and a chance for a better life. I fully support that. America is about freedom. Yes, true. America is also about LAWS as well, whether they are needing improvement or not. I mean, if I were to say, c''mon...America is about freedom, so that means I should be able to do whatever the hell I want, does that really fly? I don''t think so.
America offers freedom to law-abiding citizens/residents. There are consequences for those that do not, including taking AWAY their freedom. This lady did not follow the law. She says she loves this country and wants to be here but has no respect for the rules that govern it, nor does she have any respect for the people who are waiting patiently to get in the legal way. Why are her wants and needs more important than theirs?
In America, we know how to queue. Get in line, lady.
Mara
Super_Ideal_Rock
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- 31,003
There was an article in NYT or WSJ recently about how the 'minority' races are not going to be minority in as little as possibly another 10 years...and also because of all the 'cross-breeding' (aka people marrying people of other races and having children with them) going on as the racial lines become more and more blurred in America that eventually there won't be one dominant 'race' at all because almost everyone will be mixed two or more races.
As somone who is mixed myself and married someone who is mixed as well...I am really excited to see what the future of all these different types of peope looks like. Imagine in another 30-40 years everyone is mixed race...that will just be amazing.
On the whole immigration/woman in the church thing...I have a very conservative viewpoint on things like that. Even though my family immigrated over many years ago (I am 5th generation American), where do you draw the lines on people coming here? If my family had never come over from Mexico, if Greg's family had never come over from Ukraine, we both wouldn't be here and America itself was founded on immigrants coming from elsewhere...but on the other hand things are SO messed up right now from years and years of the wrong type of immigrations that this is a whole different world now than 10 or 20 or 100 years ago.
For me, not knowing too many details, what sticks out to me like red flags is this woman stole someone's identity, not once but twice, and then had a child and hid in a Church for a year. Sure I can understand desperation...but to say that she 'deserves' to be here now? Please...what has she done to deserve it?? Broken the law, not once but twice? Birthed a child that most likely welfare will have to take care of? Does she pay taxes, or is she just going to be using MY taxes to live her deserved life in America?
I feel very badly for the child who is caught up in all of this, is this child really going to have a 'better life' if they are allowed to stay here? What does that actually entail.
TravelingGal
Super_Ideal_Rock
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- 17,193
Ha, Mara...I have to say, the mixed race thing is interesting. When I was younger, there weren''t many half asian, half other kids that I knew, but now so many of my friends are giving birth to mixed kids. And of course, I am having one of my own, so I think it''s kind of cool. You and Greg are going to have adorable children!
As rigid as I do sound, I do have sympathy for this woman and illegal immigrants when it comes down to a human level. I mean, how could I not? I''ve been to Mexico on volunteer missions where the most luxurious house in the village was 4 garage doors nailed up in a box with a roof over it. No running water, and just the sweetest people ever. I couldn''t even begin to really understand the living conditions of these people.
When we had our store in Lynwood (home to the famous Paris Hilton slammer) for 12 years, I worked there every summer (we lived in the store) and often on weekends. Obviously not everyone was illegal who came into the store and the vast majority really did work hard. I learned Spanish better than I ever could in school (I started learning in school when I was 11), and had the best homemade Mexican food ever.
We live next door to a country tremendously poorer than our own. We vacation in their loveliest areas while they work there for next to nothing. They see the pie and want a piece of it. I get that. But the law says they can''t come in without being processed, and that to me is the bottom line.
As rigid as I do sound, I do have sympathy for this woman and illegal immigrants when it comes down to a human level. I mean, how could I not? I''ve been to Mexico on volunteer missions where the most luxurious house in the village was 4 garage doors nailed up in a box with a roof over it. No running water, and just the sweetest people ever. I couldn''t even begin to really understand the living conditions of these people.
When we had our store in Lynwood (home to the famous Paris Hilton slammer) for 12 years, I worked there every summer (we lived in the store) and often on weekends. Obviously not everyone was illegal who came into the store and the vast majority really did work hard. I learned Spanish better than I ever could in school (I started learning in school when I was 11), and had the best homemade Mexican food ever.
We live next door to a country tremendously poorer than our own. We vacation in their loveliest areas while they work there for next to nothing. They see the pie and want a piece of it. I get that. But the law says they can''t come in without being processed, and that to me is the bottom line.
UCLABelle
Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- May 15, 2005
- Messages
- 2,360
This is a super heated topic. The problem has however been decades in the making. As a previous grad from UCLA in Political Science International Relations, I am very tired of talking about it...
However, a close friend had their and like Strmdr mentioned, it can ruin the lives of LEGAL citizens (yet the same could be said for the young American Citizen whose Mom is deported). Yet, if you make exceptions for them, you find that the term "Anchor Baby" will be used...often.
Sad situation either way you look
However, a close friend had their and like Strmdr mentioned, it can ruin the lives of LEGAL citizens (yet the same could be said for the young American Citizen whose Mom is deported). Yet, if you make exceptions for them, you find that the term "Anchor Baby" will be used...often.
Sad situation either way you look
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