Immigration experience at SFO

[VRBeauty]

Date: 9/2/2008 6:41:59 PM
Author: Independent Gal
Delster, that just reminded me of this horrible trip I (tried to) take to Vienna once where I had to cross through Czech territory and the freaking Czech border guards THREW ME OFF THE TRAIN!!!! in the middle of nowhere. I mean, like, nowhere. No town. Just a train hut. It was a loooooong day.

And as for why, it''s a looooong story.

But yeah, I was not a happy camper with the crazy Czech border guards.

I agree that yelling is never called for and is, in fact, not helpful for their task.

As for Canadian customs/immigration agents, I''ve had them seriously rake me over the coals a few times.

But they were, uh, pleasant enough while doing so. Definitely gave me the sense that if I stepped out of line, trouble would ensue.

Eek! I guess it turned out ok though!

I once came across a customs agent/ag inspector in DFW who was incenced that I tried to bring in an apple and gave me a 5-minute lecture about the dangers of bringing in foreign produce. For the record, I boarded the plane in Mexico but was given the apple in-flight (onn a U.S. carrier) and was saving it for later. I assumed it was a red, white, and blue apple! Anyhow, the agent was so enthralled with his lecture that he forgot to check my proof of U.S. residency -- after I had gone to great pains to get a notarized copy of my naturalization papers!

Anyhow, and I don''t mean in any way to diminish anyone''s bad experiences with immigration officials, but i''d rather deal with customs anyday than to be stopped by armed gendarms on some little road in Mexico, and questioned for no apparent reason... which has happened to me more than once.

 

[Irishgrrrl]

Date: 9/2/2008 7:25:20 PM
Author: lisaC
I think Delster summed it up best that it could have been done politely. Wow Delster you had a truly horrendous experience!
For those who have shared their horror stories thanks for the empathy!
For the rest I wonder what you''ve said to yourself when someone has been an utter jerk when there was no need and please don''t tell me it''s okay cause it''s his job.

Lisa, we''re not talking about just "someone" being an utter jerk. We''re talking about a customs official, and it IS his job. If the guy at the donut shop had been a jerk to you, I can promise that you would have my complete and utter sympathy.

This country was horrendously attacked by terrorists on September 11, 2001, if you will recall. Each and every one of those attackers came through a customs checkpoint in order to enter this country at some point. You''ll have to excuse me if I, as an American citizen, can''t and won''t find fault with the vital work that our customs agents do. I think that they can and should question anyone that they feel needs questioning. And they aren''t there to make friends with you. They''re there to protect this country. Part of that job involves rattling people who might be lying, and they don''t know if the person in front of them is a bad guy or not. It''s their job to figure that out. If being a jerk helps them do that job more accurately and efficiently, then more power to them. Our national security is far more important than your personal convenience.

 

[Anna0499]

Date: 9/2/2008 2:12:43 PM
Author: lisaC

Date: 9/2/2008 12:03:34 PM
Author: IndyGirl22
I hear you about the customs frustrations Lisa! My family and I were headed back from a vacation to Niagara Falls CANADA (let alone overseas) and we had our U.S. passports, were in a family-sized SUV, and we were forced to get out of our car while our bags were searched for no probable cause. We had to stand on the side of the road while they went through our things for half an hour to get back INTO OUR OWN COUNTRY and then we had to go inside and were questioned by OUR OWN COUNTRY as to our employment in the United States. We filed a complaint because it was ridiculous...the guy checking our information was clearly racist...he asked my sister three times where she worked (she''s in college and doesn''t work) and asked why she didn''t have her university ID (why would you bring that on vacation?!). He also asked my parents what they did for a living and demanded their work IDs (my mom also didn''t bring hers on VACATION!) and my dad showed him a business card. He finished off the questioning with, ''Well, we get a lot of Asians trying to smuggle people into the U.S. to work in nail shops so I just wanted to make sure.''

My assumption was that smugglers wouldn''t have six U.S. passports but I guess I was wrong...

I know they have a job to do and, as minorities, we have been stopped at airports several times without issue or complaint. This time, however, was too much.

IndyGirl I see you got My point.
I am sorry that your experience was so much more horrendous.

Yes, I did get your point. I''m all for security of our country, but if someone wants to tell me that someone who comments about NAIL SHOPS when checking our UNITED STATES passports isn''t at least a little bit racist then they are obviously in denial. He wouldn''t have said that to a family of white people.

Anyway, you are 100% entitled to feel insulted by whatever you please...don''t let anyone tell you different. Others may not share in your feelings, but PS is a place to vent & share your personal feelings & experiences...whether or not someone else thinks you should feel a certain way. People shouldn''t be telling you that your feelings are invalid. How many people have complained about rudeness by someone in a position of authority? Cops are supposed to serve and protect us too, does that mean they can be a jerk to anyone they want? No. I agree that there is no need to be a jerk to get the job done...I''d like to see a study where being a jerk correlates to better security

I think humans owe each other a certain amount of respect in their interactions regardless of their station in life.

 

[WishfulThinking]

Date: 9/3/2008 9:21:33 PM
Author: IndyGirl22

Date: 9/2/2008 2:12:43 PM

Author: lisaC

Date: 9/2/2008 12:03:34 PM

Author: IndyGirl22

I hear you about the customs frustrations Lisa! My family and I were headed back from a vacation to Niagara Falls CANADA (let alone overseas) and we had our U.S. passports, were in a family-sized SUV, and we were forced to get out of our car while our bags were searched for no probable cause. We had to stand on the side of the road while they went through our things for half an hour to get back INTO OUR OWN COUNTRY and then we had to go inside and were questioned by OUR OWN COUNTRY as to our employment in the United States. We filed a complaint because it was ridiculous...the guy checking our information was clearly racist...he asked my sister three times where she worked (she''s in college and doesn''t work) and asked why she didn''t have her university ID (why would you bring that on vacation?!). He also asked my parents what they did for a living and demanded their work IDs (my mom also didn''t bring hers on VACATION!) and my dad showed him a business card. He finished off the questioning with, ''Well, we get a lot of Asians trying to smuggle people into the U.S. to work in nail shops so I just wanted to make sure.''

My assumption was that smugglers wouldn''t have six U.S. passports but I guess I was wrong...

I know they have a job to do and, as minorities, we have been stopped at airports several times without issue or complaint. This time, however, was too much.

IndyGirl I see you got My point.

I am sorry that your experience was so much more horrendous.

Yes, I did get your point. I''m all for security of our country, but if someone wants to tell me that someone who comments about NAIL SHOPS when checking our UNITED STATES passports isn''t at least a little bit racist then they are obviously in denial. He wouldn''t have said that to a family of white people.

Anyway, you are 100% entitled to feel insulted by whatever you please...don''t let anyone tell you different. Others may not share in your feelings, but PS is a place to vent & share your personal feelings & experiences...whether or not someone else thinks you should feel a certain way. People shouldn''t be telling you that your feelings are invalid. How many people have complained about rudeness by someone in a position of authority? Cops are supposed to serve and protect us too, does that mean they can be a jerk to anyone they want? No. I agree that there is no need to be a jerk to get the job done...I''d like to see a study where being a jerk correlates to better security

I think humans owe each other a certain amount of respect in their interactions regardless of their station in life.

I agree with you 110% IndyGirl. Your story specifically really outrages me. NAIL SALONS?! Are you kidding me? That is absolutely racism, and not very subtle, either. I''m so sorry you were put through that.

I have absolutely no idea why someone would think that anyone in a position of authority has the right to be disrespectful or mean to someone in a manner that is not directly related to their ability to do their job.

Obviously national security is an issue: even the most liberal among us [haha, me] can probably agree with that, but I think we might also be able to agree that a lot of the things the security personnel do in the name of national security is ineffective and rude at best and discriminatory at worst. Just because we [rightfully] want to limit the comings and goings of shady or potentially dangerous people doesn''t seem to explain away or justify many of the things that occur in customs and border control.

Furthermore, while it is likely a good idea to ask people questions about where they have gone and what they were doing there, etc, prying a bit further to see if someone slips up on what could be a cover story, some of the questions that are asked are irrelevant, rude, or harsh to the extreme, such as yelling needlessly. Stuff like that doesn''t make me feel safe AT ALL, and realistically speaking it is not actually *making* us safer either. It does, however, make me feel intimidated and lose respect for the security personnel [which can''t be good for their job, no?], and probably isn''t going to be catching any terrorists any time soon.

 

[Anna0499]

Date: 9/3/2008 10:21:03 PM
Author: WishfulThinking

I agree with you 110% IndyGirl. Your story specifically really outrages me. NAIL SALONS?! Are you kidding me? That is absolutely racism, and not very subtle, either. I''m so sorry you were put through that.

I have absolutely no idea why someone would think that anyone in a position of authority has the right to be disrespectful or mean to someone in a manner that is not directly related to their ability to do their job.

Obviously national security is an issue: even the most liberal among us [haha, me] can probably agree with that, but I think we might also be able to agree that a lot of the things the security personnel do in the name of national security is ineffective and rude at best and discriminatory at worst. Just because we [rightfully] want to limit the comings and goings of shady or potentially dangerous people doesn''t seem to explain away or justify many of the things that occur in customs and border control.

Furthermore, while it is likely a good idea to ask people questions about where they have gone and what they were doing there, etc, prying a bit further to see if someone slips up on what could be a cover story, some of the questions that are asked are irrelevant, rude, or harsh to the extreme, such as yelling needlessly. Stuff like that doesn''t make me feel safe AT ALL, and realistically speaking it is not actually *making* us safer either. It does, however, make me feel intimidated and lose respect for the security personnel [which can''t be good for their job, no?], and probably isn''t going to be catching any terrorists any time soon.

Yeah, I am usually slow to pull the race card, but in that case it was so blatant I couldn''t believe it. My parents have experienced obvious racism in the past, but I hadn''t really until that day and it made me both angry and sad. I know he was definitely in the minority in the grand scheme of things, but it still left a bad taste in my mouth. The OP came here for support and, I think, just to vent about her feelings and to find some commonality with PSers. I think everyone can relate to her story. I''m glad you agree with me that respect for your fellow (wo)man doesn''t need to be tossed to the wayside OR excused in the name of "security". Like I said, I''ve gone through several security checks in airports, been pulled aside, etc., etc. and have never had a problem doing so because the people have been professional and efficient. I understood that these are dangerous times and they need to check people out very closely. However, there ARE times when security personnel step out of line and need to be reprimanded. That badge/work pass doesn''t give them the authority to treat innocent people like criminals.

 

[diamondfan]

Doing ones job and doing it seriously and well is tough when security is involved. They are trying to suss out things by watching you speak, checking out your body language... there are things they look for, red flags, and most times it take a couple of sweaty minutes and that is it. They are in a uniform and use some of that intimidation to size you up. Not saying I agree but I always figure I have nothing to hide so let them ask. Rude and nasty and making stupid remarks (why do you travel so much) is wrong imho. I wish they could show their authority and assess people without being personally offensive. I do worry that you could have your name in the system because it is similar to someone else''s, that is scary stuff!

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 9/3/2008 9:21:33 PM
Author: IndyGirl22
Yes, I did get your point. I''m all for security of our country, but if someone wants to tell me that someone who comments about NAIL SHOPS when checking our UNITED STATES passports isn''t at least a little bit racist then they are obviously in denial. He wouldn''t have said that to a family of white people.

Anyway, you are 100% entitled to feel insulted by whatever you please...don''t let anyone tell you different. Others may not share in your feelings, but PS is a place to vent & share your personal feelings & experiences...whether or not someone else thinks you should feel a certain way. People shouldn''t be telling you that your feelings are invalid. How many people have complained about rudeness by someone in a position of authority? Cops are supposed to serve and protect us too, does that mean they can be a jerk to anyone they want? No. I agree that there is no need to be a jerk to get the job done...I''d like to see a study where being a jerk correlates to better security

I think humans owe each other a certain amount of respect in their interactions regardless of their station in life.

My brother is a cop. Love cops. But I gotta say by the time you really have a run in with one, it''s most likely because you''ve already DONE something wrong. (Speeding ticket, DUI, public disturbance, whatever). They don''t have to beat it out of you. Customs officials have to find the bad guys.

 

[Irishgrrrl]

Ditto DFan and TGal. And I agree that remarks about nail salons and questioning why you travel so much is totally out of line. However, I take issue with the fact that the OP immediately assumed that the customs official was racist. All he did was question her recent trip and the origin of her passport, both of which are questions that he can and should ask. He did not make any racist remarks to her whatsoever.

 

[Anna0499]

Date: 9/4/2008 6:21:46 AM
Author: Irishgrrrl
Ditto DFan and TGal. And I agree that remarks about nail salons and questioning why you travel so much is totally out of line. However, I take issue with the fact that the OP immediately assumed that the customs official was racist. All he did was question her recent trip and the origin of her passport, both of which are questions that he can and should ask. He did not make any racist remarks to her whatsoever.

The OP posted what she was thinking internally when she was going through the situation. The truth of the matter is, when you are a minority (be it white, black, asian, or otherwise) and you see (what you perceive) to be disparate treatment then sometimes you can''t help but feel like the person you are dealing with wouldn''t be treating you that way if you were a member of the majority. Whether that is true or not, that''s how you feel and those feelings are valid. I have no idea whether I would classify the guy in OP''s story as racist, but racism doesn''t always come across through a person''s words, so we''ll never know. I just offered her support instead of cutting down her feelings. While the security person may not have actually been racist, racial profiling at ports does occur and singles out people solely on their appearance, which some would consider discriminatory.

P.S. TGal - I know many great cops too, I was just comparing the two professions because they both are in a position of authority and can stop/detain/question people with anything they think is probable cause. I think it can be done respectfully or disrespectfully and those who do it the latter way are the minority, but it does happen.

 

[meresal]

Date: 9/2/2008 3:03:34 PM
Author: Independent Gal
I guess, as a foreigner who has had her share of wrangling with the local authorities, that I'm also not sure why you would get upset with someone for doing what is literally his / her job. They are not being difficult. The job of an immigration and customs agent is to ask you LOTS of tricky questions and try to trip you up. That is their job. That is what they are trained to do. An agent who does NOT do that is not doing his or her job. They are not being 'nice' they are being incompetent.

Seriously, coming back from Panama, a place notorious for drugs and organized crime, why wouldn't they ask you some tough questions?

And if something looks at all funny or unusual, they OUGHT to press you a bit.

The best thing with customs and immigration officials is to simply and plainly answer each of their questions. Each one is asked for a purpose. Not to be difficult, but to catch out people who are lying.

And yes, LOTS of people lie. How many of you have never, ever lied to a customs official? Said you brought back less stuff than you did? Or?

So please, don't get angry with someone for doing his job, even if his job requires him or her to be a little abrasive.

It is much more worrying to arrive in a place where the customs officials couldn't care less, like once when I arrived in Copenhagen, the agent was so busy chatting with his friend that he literally didn't look at me or my passport, just stamped it with his head turned away and handed it back. More worrying still is countries that hassle only SOME people. For instance, going into Switzerland on the train, I have often had the experience of agents making a bee-line for anyone with dark skin. I'm not a Swiss citizen, but they aren't interested in my passport. Plenty of dark skinned SWISS, however, get a hassle.

This said by a non-citizen who has often been on the painful end of that abrasiveness in the US. But on the whole, it is one of the more professional and rigorous customs and immigration services of the many countries I have been to. BECAUSE it's abrasive.

Just my 2 cts.

IG: Case and point... Tijuana, Mexico. (or any other place along the border for that matter, just not as bad at most of the crosses)

-To get into Tj, you walk thru a revolving gate (ie, asmusement park like) where there is NO security... to get back you follow the spray painted walls that read USA, and stand in line for 30 minutes at customs. I would much rather stand in the line when getting back into my own country.


Fiery- I HATE MIA CUSTOMS!!! I'll just say one of the strangest/yuckky places in the USA.

Heathrow was also pretty bad... however I went thru there in August/Sept of 2006, when just a week earlier there had been a bomb threat on a few planes there. The nationals(??) were walking around the HUGE guns.

 

[Irishgrrrl]

Date: 9/4/2008 9:00:26 AM
Author: IndyGirl22

Date: 9/4/2008 6:21:46 AM
Author: Irishgrrrl
Ditto DFan and TGal. And I agree that remarks about nail salons and questioning why you travel so much is totally out of line. However, I take issue with the fact that the OP immediately assumed that the customs official was racist. All he did was question her recent trip and the origin of her passport, both of which are questions that he can and should ask. He did not make any racist remarks to her whatsoever.

The OP posted what she was thinking internally when she was going through the situation. The truth of the matter is, when you are a minority (be it white, black, asian, or otherwise) and you see (what you perceive) to be disparate treatment then sometimes you can''t help but feel like the person you are dealing with wouldn''t be treating you that way if you were a member of the majority. Whether that is true or not, that''s how you feel and those feelings are valid. I have no idea whether I would classify the guy in OP''s story as racist, but racism doesn''t always come across through a person''s words, so we''ll never know. I just offered her support instead of cutting down her feelings. While the security person may not have actually been racist, racial profiling at ports does occur and singles out people solely on their appearance, which some would consider discriminatory.

P.S. TGal - I know many great cops too, I was just comparing the two professions because they both are in a position of authority and can stop/detain/question people with anything they think is probable cause. I think it can be done respectfully or disrespectfully and those who do it the latter way are the minority, but it does happen.

OK, so the OP''s feelings are valid, even though she appears to be perceiving racism where none exists? You''ve just lost me.

 

[cara]

Well, if 9 out of the last 10 times you were treated this way, it turned out to be because of your race or sex or whatever, and you notice signs of being treated similarly again in a new circumstance, even if they haven't made a smoking gun comment yet (like the nail salon or something), you can't help but feel it is more discrimination because your past experience would support that inference. Even if there is no concrete proof it is discrimination.

Lets make an example. You are black, and you and your similarly colored family members have been pulled over multiple times for minor traffic violations (that most people are not pulled over for) or no reason at all and, on some of those instances, comments by the police support that racism was their motivation. Now yet again you have been pulled over, you were not speeding and don't know why you have been pulled over. The cop has not yet done or said anything to lead you to believe that they are racist, but yet your feeling that this is another Driving-While-Black stop is understandable. Even if it turns out that the cop was pulling you over because you had a light out or something. Does that make it more clear, Irish?

Part of being a customs official is being a jerk. They are supposed to be gruff, to ask repeated questions with minor variations to see if the answer changes, to be aggressive in questioning you. But they can also be over the line, go off on power trips and be gruff and jerks in ways that are not going to make anyone safer and make the whole experience less pleasant for everyone. I too have been bossed around in waiting lines unnecessarily, told to wait in one line for hours only to be moved to a different line later and yelled at for questioning why the change/misinformation. This is all prior to the actual questioning and passport inspection. To say, "Oh, well 9/11 justifies it, they have to be jerks" is not acceptable. Sorry. Listen to the details of the story and decide whether the rude treatment was part of a line of questioning or standard processing designed to produce stress that might reasonably improve safety or if it was inefficient, rude bureaucracy run amok with their power. While I support some amount of racial/national profiling on border crossings or airport inspections, there is also an acceptable line there and nail salon comments are over it.

 

[hibiscus]

irishgrrl are you saying you''ve never been stopped before for extra questionioning? Or you never really made any travels? Pardon me but you''re not the custom officers so you can''t really speak for them. Yes, I understand and most of us do, they are doing their job but sometime, we''re not stupid to see they are crossing the line.

Just my two cents. Been stopped for further questioning over a stroller eventhough my husband is a high ranking marines.

 

[hibiscus]

irishggrl excuse my words on whether you never travel before or been stopped, i just read the entire post on this topic but i still believe they do cross over the line sometime.

 

[Anna0499]

Date: 9/4/2008 2:36:30 PM
Author: Irishgrrrl

Date: 9/4/2008 9:00:26 AM
Author: IndyGirl22

Date: 9/4/2008 6:21:46 AM
Author: Irishgrrrl
Ditto DFan and TGal. And I agree that remarks about nail salons and questioning why you travel so much is totally out of line. However, I take issue with the fact that the OP immediately assumed that the customs official was racist. All he did was question her recent trip and the origin of her passport, both of which are questions that he can and should ask. He did not make any racist remarks to her whatsoever.

The OP posted what she was thinking internally when she was going through the situation. The truth of the matter is, when you are a minority (be it white, black, asian, or otherwise) and you see (what you perceive) to be disparate treatment then sometimes you can't help but feel like the person you are dealing with wouldn't be treating you that way if you were a member of the majority. Whether that is true or not, that's how you feel and those feelings are valid. I have no idea whether I would classify the guy in OP's story as racist, but racism doesn't always come across through a person's words, so we'll never know. I just offered her support instead of cutting down her feelings. While the security person may not have actually been racist, racial profiling at ports does occur and singles out people solely on their appearance, which some would consider discriminatory.

P.S. TGal - I know many great cops too, I was just comparing the two professions because they both are in a position of authority and can stop/detain/question people with anything they think is probable cause. I think it can be done respectfully or disrespectfully and those who do it the latter way are the minority, but it does happen.

OK, so the OP's feelings are valid, even though she appears to be perceiving racism where none exists? You've just lost me.

I don't get the confusion...we weren't there, the OP was. She perceived something as racism, so she's entitled to be upset by it. You can't tell someone how to feel in a given situation you yourself are not in. She wasn't calling for any kind of radical movement against border patrol or security, she was venting her frustrations about a situation like so many PSers do. She didn't come here so that people can tell her she has no right to be upset and actually applaud those who upset her. And most times you don't know if it's true because no one is going to say, "Yes, I am a racist. Nice to meet you."

 

[Irishgrrrl]

Cara, Hibiscus & IndyGirl~

While customs officials have a job to do and being gruff is often a necessary part of that job, I do agree that they sometimes do cross the line. I don''t think that the majority of them are guilty of this, but some definitely are. For example, the remark about nail salons that was made to IndyGirl and her family ~ that was WAY out of line and inexcusable, IMO.

So, I''m not trying to say that all customs officials are perfect ~ they''re obviously not. I''m just basing my opinion on what the OP has told us about the situation. Assuming that she hasn''t withheld any information and that she has told us the whole story, I don''t think her judgment that the customs official is racist was appropriate under the circumstances. Did she make that judgment just because the customs official was white? What if the customs official had asked the same exact questions in the same exact way, but he was of some other race (not white, but still not the same race as the OP) ~ would the OP have made the same judgment regarding racism in that scenario? There may be things we don''t know about the situation. I''m basing my opinion solely on the statements that the OP has made. I just think that there''s enough real racism in the world that we don''t need to be looking for it where it doesn''t exist.

Obviously, this is a hot button issue for me. I''ve said all I have to say, so I''m now ending my involvement in this thread.

 

[cara]

Irish, I agree that the OP could have been more articulate about her experience in terms of explaining exactly how and why she felt this was over the line treatment and not just annoying questions... I think TGal on the first page was in line with my initial read.

I wrote partly because you brought up 9/11 and the idea that, "our national security is far more important than your personal convenience." I might agree with you, but I think far, far too many things have been done to cause personal inconvenience and reduction in freedoms in this country without actually improving our national security. And sometimes those things give us a false sense that "something is being done" that might actually be dangerous to us. Detailed, devious questioning by customs agents is not one of those things, but I guess the question concerns the line here. obviously this is a topic for a different thread so I should sign off too