Is fire better in super ideal diamonds?

[Texas Leaguer]

@bestcoder ,
Thank you for being a Whiteflash customer. I am sorry you are not seeing what you consider ample fire in A CUT ABOVE diamonds.
A couple things to keep in mind. First, the measure of fire is really a measure potential for fire. The lighting conditions have to be conducive to seeing this effect. Just as you need the right set of atmospherics to see a rainbow after a rain shower.

The dispersive capacity of a diamond (the potential for fire) can be measured and is determined by the angle at which light rays are exiting the crown. The AGSL ray tracer calculates over 30,000 light rays entering and exiting the crown, and fire is one of those measures.

A CUT ABOVE diamonds have always come with a full AGSL report and have to be Triple Zero as a baseline. This means that they have come through the ray tracer with zero deductions for brightness, contrast, leakage, or dispersion (fire). Now that GIA has acquired the AGSL technology, GIA is offerring an AGS Ideal report with any diamond they grade that qualifies. And there have been no changes to the light performance grading since GIA took over. A CUT ABOVE diamonds today have the same requirements as before, only now they come with GIA Triple Ex grading report and an AGS Ideal addendum report.

Another thing to remember is that as narrow as the AGS Ideal grade is, there is still a small range of proportion sets that give customers an ability to fine tune the proportion set they think best suits their goals. Within the range you could, for instance, look for a slightly larger crown height that could potentially give you slightly more fire, or choose a slightly lower crown angle to get a little more spread. But when you choose an A CUT ABOVE you are getting a diamond with high potential for fire.

The other thing to keep in mind is that if there is an appreciable transparency deficit due to light scattering inclusions, the diamond will suffer in light performance no matter how well cut it is. A CUT ABOVE are specifically analyzed for this issue so that should not be your case! Also, keeping the stone clean is key to getting optimal performance out of any diamond.

If you will contact us, we can adress your concerns with the specific diamond or diamonds in question.

 

[Serg]

Hi, everyone.

I was wondering whether fire (my favorite diamond property by faaaaaar) is better in super ideal diamonds than in regular GIA 3ex diamonds
or
super ideal diamonds are mostly about brilliance and regular GIA 3ex diamonds are better when it comes to fire.

I heard somewhere that fancy cut diamomds have more fire than round diamonds
but please let's limit our discussion within round diamonds.

I'm asking because
in my personal experiences
the best diamond fire I have ever witnessed came from Tiffany diamonds, which were not super ideal diamonds.
It was four years ago and I wonder if Tiffany now cuts their diamonds in super ideal ways.
I hope they don't cos it seems to me that super ideal diamonds are mostly about brilliance.
I mean, one of the best known super ideal diamond companies' name is """WHITE""" flash, ha ha.

The following is how Brian Gavin diamonds describes their diamonds in one of their blog posts.
"Just imagine being able to see all those broad-spectrum flashes of light reflecting off the facets of your Black by Brian Gavin diamond and seeing them fly off into the room where they will reflect off of every other surface they can find."
It sounds like they focus on fire more than Whiteflash does, but the BGD diamonds I bought are still less impressive than the aforementioned Tiffany diamonds when it comes to fire.

What do you guys think?
Please share your opinions.
Thank you in advance.

I unfortunately do not know the proportions of the Tiffany RBC, but slight increases in crown or pavilion angles relative to the classic P 40.8 Cr34.5 lead to an increase in the frequency of colored flashes and their contrast, especially under the table.

On this forum, many do not like the proportions P41.2 Cr34.5, believing that the increase in the pavilion is done by cutters to yield heavier diamonds, and such an increase creates light leakage. However, based on my theoretical and practical observations, these proportions are better for creating fire in RBC for two reasons.

 

[molecule]

@bestcoder do you still have the Tiffany diamond? Finding out those diamond's proportions may help.

 

[V_sh]

Hi, everyone.

I was wondering whether fire (my favorite diamond property by faaaaaar) is better in super ideal diamonds than in regular GIA 3ex diamonds
or
super ideal diamonds are mostly about brilliance and regular GIA 3ex diamonds are better when it comes to fire.

I heard somewhere that fancy cut diamomds have more fire than round diamonds
but please let's limit our discussion within round diamonds.

I'm asking because
in my personal experiences
the best diamond fire I have ever witnessed came from Tiffany diamonds, which were not super ideal diamonds.
It was four years ago and I wonder if Tiffany now cuts their diamonds in super ideal ways.
I hope they don't cos it seems to me that super ideal diamonds are mostly about brilliance.
I mean, one of the best known super ideal diamond companies' name is """WHITE""" flash, ha ha.

The following is how Brian Gavin diamonds describes their diamonds in one of their blog posts.
"Just imagine being able to see all those broad-spectrum flashes of light reflecting off the facets of your Black by Brian Gavin diamond and seeing them fly off into the room where they will reflect off of every other surface they can find."
It sounds like they focus on fire more than Whiteflash does, but the BGD diamonds I bought are still less impressive than the aforementioned Tiffany diamonds when it comes to fire.

What do you guys think?
Please share your opinions.
Thank you in advance.

Hi after all my investigation I saw small changes in Azimuth, Proportions, and symmetrical cutting that can cause a significant change in the light performance of a diamond.

If you are not going to see the diamond in person and buy that after you are fascinated with it, and you like to be deeply specific about a special kind of light performance.


then I highly advise you to check the https://cutwise.com/

and then investigate this filtered search:

Cutwise

cutwise.com

I also recommend you study "Nanocut Plasma-etched Diamonds"
you may start with this article:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/260342594_Cutting_Diffraction_Gratings_to_Improve_Dispersion_Fire_in_Diamonds/figures?lo=1&utm_source=google&utm_medium=organic

and then take a look at this website:

Homepage - Facets of Fire Diamonds

7x More Beautiful. 7x Brighter. Facets of Fire diamonds are cut to shine brighter with more sparkle, more fire and more brilliance.

facetsoffire.com

P.S. Do you know there are many other gems that have WAY MORE fire than diamonds???

 

[1955FL]

I stopped by Tiffanys over the weekend and all their engagement ring brilliant rounds looked to have easily visible arrows behind the case - arm's length view. I believe due to the distance; the arrow patterns were light in contrast. Their selection was very nice. I did notice a 5 carat with a slight pavilion twist. This was at the south coast plaza store. The lighting was way brighter at the back of the store with the expensive stuff.

Take your diamond to a Tiffany's store. They told me to bring mine to compare.

 

[Shiyui]

Hi after all my investigation I saw small changes in Azimuth, Proportions, and symmetrical cutting that can cause a significant change in the light performance of a diamond.

If you are not going to see the diamond in person and buy that after you are fascinated with it, and you like to be deeply specific about a special kind of light performance.


then I highly advise you to check the https://cutwise.com/

and then investigate this filtered search:

Cutwise

cutwise.com

I also recommend you study "Nanocut Plasma-etched Diamonds"
you may start with this article:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/260342594_Cutting_Diffraction_Gratings_to_Improve_Dispersion_Fire_in_Diamonds/figures?lo=1&utm_source=google&utm_medium=organic

and then take a look at this website:

Homepage - Facets of Fire Diamonds

7x More Beautiful. 7x Brighter. Facets of Fire diamonds are cut to shine brighter with more sparkle, more fire and more brilliance.

facetsoffire.com

P.S. Do you know there are many other gems that have WAY MORE fire than diamonds???

As someone who is interested in modified diamond, whether those modifications be with the cut or polish, thank you for sharing additional reading I hadn't yet come across!

As far as I can tell, the "nanocut plasma-etched diamonds" are the same thing as the fire polished diamonds shown in Good Old Gold's old videos and uses the same technology behind the Leo First Light diamonds. I wanted to see the effect of those pavilion etchings myself, but I had quite a hard time finding any fire polished diamonds. Jared and Kay Jewelers both carry the Leo First Light Diamonds since they're both Signet companies, but the person at Jared said they hadn't received any for at least five years. Kay had a few set in rings and they looked like just dots of light green and pink. No matter how much I moved those diamonds, I couldn't make the arrows light up. Those diamonds looked far more like opals than diamonds to me.

I understand you can't comment on competitors as a member of the trade, but I hope you are able to answer if the diffraction gratings have the optical effect of interfering with a traditional round's arrow patterning.

Also, thank you for sharing the Cutwise website. It's always interesting for me as a customer to put a name to what equipment my jeweler uses and understand what it does. I wonder if the DiBox 2.0 is what GCAL uses too. The fire rotational videos look very similar.

 

[bestcoder]

P.S. Do you know there are many other gems that have WAY MORE fire than diamonds???

Yes, I've heard.
Moissanites and even CZ according to what I've read.
If there are more, please tell me.

I've been refraining from moissanites
partly because they don't make me feel like a royalty (ha ha)
but mostly because to me
"cheap stone + expensive metal" just didn't sound right.
In my opinion, cheap stones like moissanites and CZ should go with stainless steel, not with gold, 14K or 18K.
But I knew of no jeweler who at times made stainless steel rings.
So I just gave up having a moissanite ring made even though I'd heard that moissanites have more fire than diamonds.

But recently I got to know this Chinese shopping website called Aliexpress, which is known for selling extremely cheap products (albeit of dubious quality sometimes) and I found that they sell moissanite rings set in stainless steel, and I ordered two of them.





They haven't arrived and I'm on the edge of my seat
I don't know how beautiful they'll be but one thing is for sure - cost-effectiveness is just mind-boggling.
The first one is about 8 dollars and the second one is about 75 dollars.

 

[TXwidow]

well cut white (clear) zircon set in Sterling Silver.

 

[bestcoder]

well cut white (clear) zircon set in Sterling Silver.

Did you mean to upload a picture of a well cut white (clear) zircon set in Sterling Silver?
If you did, please share your picture.
I'm very much interested

 

[lovedogs]

Moissanite indeed has much more fire than diamond.

 

[TXwidow]

Did you mean to upload a picture of a well cut white (clear) zircon set in Sterling Silver?
If you did, please share your picture.
I'm very much interested

I need to clean it and take a current photo! I rarely wear it at this point in my life.

 

[OboeGal]

I actually adore a well-cut CZ or moissanite.

 

[bestcoder]

One of the two moissanite rings I ordered from Aliexpress arrived
and I've got my fire back!
After trying 25 diamonds after the Tiffany diamond I talked about in my first post in this thread
I've got my fire back from an 8 dollar Chinese moissanite ring

 

[V_sh]

As someone who is interested in modified diamond, whether those modifications be with the cut or polish, thank you for sharing additional reading I hadn't yet come across!

As far as I can tell, the "nanocut plasma-etched diamonds" are the same thing as the fire polished diamonds shown in Good Old Gold's old videos and uses the same technology behind the Leo First Light diamonds. I wanted to see the effect of those pavilion etchings myself, but I had quite a hard time finding any fire polished diamonds. Jared and Kay Jewelers both carry the Leo First Light Diamonds since they're both Signet companies, but the person at Jared said they hadn't received any for at least five years. Kay had a few set in rings and they looked like just dots of light green and pink. No matter how much I moved those diamonds, I couldn't make the arrows light up. Those diamonds looked far more like opals than diamonds to me.

I understand you can't comment on competitors as a member of the trade, but I hope you are able to answer if the diffraction gratings have the optical effect of interfering with a traditional round's arrow patterning.

Also, thank you for sharing the Cutwise website. It's always interesting for me as a customer to put a name to what equipment my jeweler uses and understand what it does. I wonder if the DiBox 2.0 is what GCAL uses too. The fire rotational videos look very similar.

You are most welcome

The nano etching of the two lower girdles junction (which is the most effective part to etch) won't affect the arrows pattern.


Also about arrows beeing dark or bright, it's mainly about interaction of main pavillion and main crown angles and degrees of head shadow matters.

So for furthur investigation you may read more about head shadow and take more care about MP & MC angles of stones you may buy.

You may later tell me the MP & MC angles of the chosen stone so I can check in diamond designing softwares and we will know about the head shadow effects on arrows.

 

[V_sh]

Yes, I've heard.
Moissanites and even CZ according to what I've read.
If there are more, please tell me.

I've been refraining from moissanites
partly because they don't make me feel like a royalty (ha ha)
but mostly because to me
"cheap stone + expensive metal" just didn't sound right.
In my opinion, cheap stones like moissanites and CZ should go with stainless steel, not with gold, 14K or 18K.
But I knew of no jeweler who at times made stainless steel rings.
So I just gave up having a moissanite ring made even though I'd heard that moissanites have more fire than diamonds.

But recently I got to know this Chinese shopping website called Aliexpress, which is known for selling extremely cheap products (albeit of dubious quality sometimes) and I found that they sell moissanite rings set in stainless steel, and I ordered two of them.





They haven't arrived and I'm on the edge of my seat
I don't know how beautiful they'll be but one thing is for sure - cost-effectiveness is just mind-boggling.
The first one is about 8 dollars and the second one is about 75 dollars.

It matters if you are looking for colorless gems or not.

But overall you may check for Rutile facet, pale color Demantoid or Topazolite, pale color titanite, well-cut white Zircon

Some of them are expensive and rare enough to feel like a royalty, LOL

 

[bestcoder]

The other moissanite ring I'd ordered came and it is also very rainbow-like.



This is about $75, which is way pricier than the above $8 one.
And yet the $8 one seems to have better fire.
This one is from Anujewel on Aliexpress and I've read someone complaining that Anujewel's moissanites have inferior cuts.
Possibly because of that, it looks more like the following.



Which I don't find very attractive cos what I think of when I hear "diamond fire" is something like the following.



One second, a big blue flash, next second, a big green flash, etc.
Not teeny tiny colored dots.

However, cost-effective is still mind-blowing
and in my opinion, either of the two moissanites I've recently ordered is wwwaaayyy better than any of my super ideal diamonds (7 from Whiteflash, 5 from Brian Gavin Diamonds, and 1 from Victor Canera).
As far as fire is concerned, all my so-called super ideal diamonds are duds.

I read somewhere that you can't see much fire if the lighting is very bright cos the diamond will be busy sending the bright white light back to you. But when you take the stone to a dimly-lit restaurant or something, you start to see fire.
Well, be that as it may, my very first diamond (a round brilliant Tiffany diamond, a non-super ideal diamond) showed tons of fire under bright lighting too (whether that was because the stone wasn't superiorly cut) and so do my moissies.
A diamond being able to show lots of fire (only) under dim lighting means zilch to me.

As I said in my previous post,
After trying 25 diamonds (some owned, some returned, others exchanged),
I've got my beloved fire back from moissanites.
Looking back, it was a journey filled with disappointment and confusion.
I assumed super ideal diamonds were all very firey and rainbow-like
and it was my eyes' fault that I couldn't see them properly.
I thought maybe the laser treatment I'd had on my retina changed something in my eyes or something.
Resigned to it, I kept buying super ideal diamonds hoping someday my eyes would be back to what they used to be.
But then I read a Whiteflash blog post

Screech of tire.
Wait. What????????!!!!!!!!!!!!
White brilliance enhanced by just the right amount of fire???!!!
Is that what Whiteflash (and other super ideal diamond companies) is aiming at???!!!!
It isn't just my eyes' fault????!!!!
Oh dear God, that is why the company's name is WHITE flash!!!!!!
And when I went to a local jewelry store and said to a lady there
"I'm interested in moissanites. I heard they are more rainbow-like than diamonds,"
the lady said "Diamonds are rainbow-like?"
She works in a jewelry store selling diamonds and doesn't even think diamonds are rainbow-like.
I was very confused; are diamonds supposed to be just white, or mostly white? Then what was it that I saw from my very first diamond???!!!!!
And then I kept running into posts that said Whiteflash diamonds are not that great when it comes to fire.





Like I said,
it was a journey riddled with disappointment and confusion.
And now, I'll be at peace with my moissies.
Charles and Colvard, just wait.
I'll be your No.1 customer.

 

[OboeGal]

The other moissanite ring I'd ordered came and it is also very rainbow-like.



This is about $75, which is way pricier than the above $8 one.
And yet the $8 one seems to have better fire.
This one is from Anujewel on Aliexpress and I've read someone complaining that Anujewel's moissanites have inferior cuts.
Possibly because of that, it looks more like the following.



Which I don't find very attractive cos what I think of when I hear "diamond fire" is something like the following.



One second, a big blue flash, next second, a big green flash, etc.
Not teeny tiny colored dots.

However, cost-effective is still mind-blowing
and in my opinion, either of the two moissanites I've recently ordered is wwwaaayyy better than any of my super ideal diamonds (7 from Whiteflash, 5 from Brian Gavin Diamonds, and 1 from Victor Canera).
As far as fire is concerned, all my so-called super ideal diamonds are duds.

I read somewhere that you can't see much fire if the lighting is very bright cos the diamond will be busy sending the bright white light back to you. But when you take the stone to a dimly-lit restaurant or something, you start to see fire.
Well, be that as it may, my very first diamond (a round brilliant Tiffany diamond, a non-super ideal diamond) showed tons of fire under bright lighting too (whether that was because the stone wasn't superiorly cut) and so do my moissies.
A diamond being able to show lots of fire (only) under dim lighting means zilch to me.

As I said in my previous post,
After trying 25 diamonds (some owned, some returned, others exchanged),
I've got my beloved fire back from moissanites.
Looking back, it was a journey filled with disappointment and confusion.
I assumed super ideal diamonds were all very firey and rainbow-like
and it was my eyes' fault that I couldn't see them properly.
I thought maybe the laser treatment I'd had on my retina changed something in my eyes or something.
Resigned to it, I kept buying super ideal diamonds hoping someday my eyes would be back to what they used to be.
But then I read a Whiteflash blog post

Screech of tire.
Wait. What????????!!!!!!!!!!!!
White brilliance enhanced by just the right amount of fire???!!!
Is that what Whiteflash (and other super ideal diamond companies) is aiming at???!!!!
It isn't just my eyes' fault????!!!!
Oh dear God, that is why the company's name is WHITE flash!!!!!!
And when I went to a local jewelry store and said to a lady there
"I'm interested in moissanites. I heard they are more rainbow-like than diamonds,"
the lady said "Diamonds are rainbow-like?"
She works in a jewelry store selling diamonds and doesn't even think diamonds are rainbow-like.
I was very confused; are diamonds supposed to be just white, or mostly white? Then what was it that I saw from my very first diamond???!!!!!
And then I kept running into posts that said Whiteflash diamonds are not that great when it comes to fire.





Like I said,
it was a journey riddled with disappointment and confusion.
And now, I'll be at peace with my moissies.
Charles and Colvard, just wait.
I'll be your No.1 customer.

My experience has been the same as yours. In sizes bigger than 0.4-0.5ct, even the best-cut diamonds show less dispersion than moissanite, especially in direct sunlight, and to a lesser extent under spotlighting (although the super-ideal diamonds come darn close under spotlighting). However, the counterpoint is that in indirect daylight and shade, and to a lesser extent in spotlighting, all my diamonds have a crispness and depth to the faceting that just isn't there in the moissy in that lighting. I also notice that, in all lighting, the rate of scintillation in moissy is slower than in diamonds - light moves through it more "lazily."

In the end, I think it really comes down to personal taste (unless one is motivated by perceived "status"). For you, the intensity of fire and dispersion is paramount, and you've found a great solution in moissanite. Others prefer the crispness and more "subdued" fire of diamonds. And then still others, like me, are unfortunate enough to love both equally, and CZ too, so I need to spend for multiple rings to wear and switch them out all the time depending on what lighting I'm going to be in. It gets pricey and hard to make decisions about which to choose for an item!

 

[Dreamer_D]

This whole thread is very strange to me. There is a fire thread in Show Me the Bling with a million pictures of people showing fire from there ideal cut round diamonds. Which is only evident in certain lighting when diamonds are very very clean. I still maintain that these factors -- lighting and cleanliness -- are the main factors determining fire in diamonds, after cut. Obviously well cut diamonds create fire in the right lighting conditions.

I don't see how CZ or moissanite are relevant to this question and certainly pictures of those materials don't belong in this forum.

 

[OboeGal]

This whole thread is very strange to me. There is a fire thread in Show Me the Bling with a million pictures of people showing fire from there ideal cut round diamonds. Which is only evident in certain lighting when diamonds are very very clean. I still maintain that these factors -- lighting and cleanliness -- are the main factors determining fire in diamonds, after cut. Obviously well cut diamonds create fire in the right lighting conditions.

I don't see how CZ or moissanite are relevant to this question and certainly pictures of those materials don't belong in this forum.

If you read the whole thread, you would see that OP has multiple branded super-ideal diamonds and was still not seeing the kind of fire from them that they had seen in their prior Tiffany diamond. This was a source of frustration, and they were looking to understand why that was the case and why they found what they were looking for in moissanite instead. Since moissanite and CZ both have higher dispersion than diamonds - moissanite appreciably so - and OP was interested in why there was that difference, it became relevant to discuss how we get different performance between them vs. diamonds.

Along the way, the pictures of the moissy were posted not as a random Show Me the Bling type of thing, but as an illustrative example of what kind of fire they were looking for and not finding in all of those super-ideal diamonds. I believe the argument could be made that the pictures and discussion were relevant, and I also believe that OP is quite new to the forum and isn't aware of all the intricacies of the rules about what is OK to post where.

I really hope that things don't become so rigid and legalistic here that people are not even allowed to mention the existence of simulants or post a picture of one outside the Fabulous Fashion sub when they are doing so with the intent of it being directly informative around a discussion of diamond qualities or they are trying to understand diamond characteristics better. I would also hope we not be so hard on new posters that we immediately drive them away just after arriving because they feel unwelcome. OP has already stated in another thread that they are probably not coming back due to how people have treated them, likely in this thread.

 

[WindyRain]

I sold diamonds years ago and would often compare diamond angles to what visually you see. Some people see the subtle difference in scintillation and fire, some do not. At a certain point, some color grades don't even attract me at all (for example, I love E's, but I can tell and do not like a GIA graded F or D no matter what). All of this plays into what you see when you look inside a diamond, its quite fascinating. Many years ago (after seeing thousands, and thousands of diamonds at my job) I found a diamond that did not look like the rest ever had. It had far different scintillation. I bought that diamond, and when I looked for an upgrade, specifically looked for the exact angles that diamond had. Surprise! I found a bigger version. The craftsmanship of a diamond, as I always believed, is what is truly a remarkable and rarity, rather than the material itself.

What I'm trying to say is, all diamonds are not created equal, there is no 'best', only best for you. And select people, such as myself, are highly sensitive to slight angle variations in diamonds enough for it to be a deal-breaker.

 

[jjca]

This whole thread is very strange to me. There is a fire thread in Show Me the Bling with a million pictures of people showing fire from there ideal cut round diamonds. Which is only evident in certain lighting when diamonds are very very clean. I still maintain that these factors -- lighting and cleanliness -- are the main factors determining fire in diamonds, after cut. Obviously well cut diamonds create fire in the right lighting conditions.

I don't see how CZ or moissanite are relevant to this question and certainly pictures of those materials don't belong in this forum.

I was a little confused about the post because my RBs are insanely fiery. Several times I've tried to take pictures of my ring and there are massive colored streaks across the picture. I have a moissanite travel ring that isn't nearly as fiery as my super ideals. I went from a beautiful, bright 60/60 (that I loved so very much) to a super ideal and it took me a few days to get used to the colors. Now I'm obsessed with seeing it in different lights and watching those colored flashes. I will have to go over and check out that thread on fire - it's my favorite thing about my stones.