Is it EVER OK to lie?

[Skippy123]

Date: 2/2/2008 2:11:45 PM
Author: somethingshiny
I don't lie (often) and I despise being lied to. I think lying (besides being a sin) is like saying 'I think you're dumb enough to believe this.' Or, 'I'm so much smarter than you, you'll never figure this out.' So it comes off very disrespectful and self-centered to me.


I think if a person plans a lie, it's malicious. But, if a person lies to spare feelings, etc, it has no ill intent. But, I believe all lies will come back to bite you in the butt.

I agree w/this. I have had people tell me the dumbest stuff and I think, do you think I am that stupid, seriously and lots of times I just roll my eyes?!?! Not too long ago this guy for some reason told me that he had his degree in finance; he was getting the same degree as me (a second concentration) at the time so this was in class when this conversation happened. I think he was trying to impress me because I admire people who are disciplined to save and spend their money wisely, etc. Well, when we finished school he got a job and I got a job at a different place, same field. He ended up not liking his job and really wanted to get into where I worked so he forwarded me his resume. Low and behold he did not have a finance degree even though in the past he worked at a brokerage firm which made me feel like, what else does this guy lie about?? I really think it messes up your credibility and it does catch up w/you like that guy.

 

[Independent Gal]

I was looking at one of the articles that Haven pointed out in Scientific American. Apparently, in some experiment where students were taped talking to a stranger, something like 60% of them viewing the tape after admitted they had lied at least once, with the average being 2-3 lies.

But what was interesting was that men lied, like Skippy suggests above, to increase their personal status by claiming accomplishments they didn't have, while women lied to make the other person feel good. At first my thought was "Go GIRLS!" and then I realized that it's actually kind of the same thing, because stereotypically, men's status derives from their achievements whereas women are valued and liked for their capacity to give comfort and build others' up. So, same thing. Different angle.

The other interesting thing was that apparently, some other primates that live in very complex social hierarchies like baboons and chimps can also be accomplished liers.

Social complexity -> bigger brains -> more social complexity -> lying

Interesting. Although we should never confused an "IS" with an "OUGHT" In the ought dept, I'm inclined to agree with Haven.

Anyway, I'm going to the gym. Afterward, I intend to tell FI that I burned twice as many calories as I actually did, so that he gives me a bigger portion of dinner.

Kidding.

 

[diamondfan]

I sometimes feel backed into a corner and tell a fib so things are not a bigger problem later. Here is an example.

I have a good friend with three fairly tough kids. She is nice as a friend but expects a lot from her household help. She does not pay the competitive salaries but wants someone who can watch all the kids and clean impeccably and be fast and perfect for the most part. It seems about once a month she fires someone and starts asking around. I have for the most part been very lucky and have people stay with me for many years. I like her to go to lunch and stuff, but I know 100% she would be impossible to work for and to live with. Whenever she asks me if I know of anyone, I always say no. I would not want to put someone in her home, because I know she is totally unreasonable in her expectations and no one person could please her. I would not put someone through that. So I just lie, even if I do happen to know of someone who might be looking, because I just do not want to get involved. She does not view herself as unreasonable, nor does she think it odd she has had 10 nannies in around 18 months. I know I could not reason with her and therefore, rather than risk problems by trying to help (since no good deed goes unpunished!) I chose to just say, No, I do not know, but if I hear of anyone I will let you know. Just makes it easier all around.

 

[cara]

There was a study recently that showed that the majority of people lie regularly about things big and small.

Many many lies, with many different motivations of good and evil, and some times lies for no reason at all! But even people that described themselves as honest and truthful told lies. Usually to aid in social interactions - ie:

"How are you?" "Fine" - even though you are horrible, you lie to keep your composure. Are you really required to say "not fine" - which only invites an inquiry? - to a standard greeting from the, oh, salesperson, you just encountered?

There are lies of convenience, lies of omission, or partial omission, or misrepresentations, lies to spare feelings, lies that preserve marriages, lies that enable people to get in the door to their first job, lies that enable people to cross borders to improve their lives (everything from the Haitian political refugee mentioned above to the Mexican immigrant fleeing poverty to the privileged American with TB that flew to his wedding in Greece and lied, lied his way across borders)...

I think lying is a part of life; that just cause someone asks you a question doesn''t mean the only acceptable answers are a totally honest answer or a direct evasion (which is often socially awkward or reveals information in its own way.) There are situations in which a soft evasion, or not 100% truthful answer is acceptable or even preferable to keep society functioning... ie. If the Boss asks, "Why are you late?" are you really required to say, "Oh, hubby and I had some make-up sex this morning and I chose to be late" or is it OK to say, "Oh, sorry I overslept"?

I think there are a lot of acceptable lies out there that don''t rise to the level of lies made to save lives-in-immediate-danger.

 

[diamondfan]

That is true! Sometimes the whole unvarnished truth is just TMI!

 

[lumpkin]

Date: 2/3/2008 9:47:20 PM
Author: diamondfan
I sometimes feel backed into a corner and tell a fib so things are not a bigger problem later. Here is an example.

I have a good friend with three fairly tough kids. She is nice as a friend but expects a lot from her household help. She does not pay the competitive salaries but wants someone who can watch all the kids and clean impeccably and be fast and perfect for the most part. It seems about once a month she fires someone and starts asking around. I have for the most part been very lucky and have people stay with me for many years. I like her to go to lunch and stuff, but I know 100% she would be impossible to work for and to live with. Whenever she asks me if I know of anyone, I always say no. I would not want to put someone in her home, because I know she is totally unreasonable in her expectations and no one person could please her. I would not put someone through that. So I just lie, even if I do happen to know of someone who might be looking, because I just do not want to get involved. She does not view herself as unreasonable, nor does she think it odd she has had 10 nannies in around 18 months. I know I could not reason with her and therefore, rather than risk problems by trying to help (since no good deed goes unpunished!) I chose to just say, No, I do not know, but if I hear of anyone I will let you know. Just makes it easier all around.

I''m going to play devil''s advocate that you aren''t lying at all in this situation. You really don''t know anyone suited to working for her because no one would do the work to her satisfaction, so when she asks if you do, are you really lying?

I don''t think you are doing anything wrong, deceitful, sinful or dishonest in any way when you tell her you don''t know anyone looking for work in her household.

I think certain types of lies are just the lubricant that greases the wheels of casual social interaction. When a cashier asks, "How are you today?" she doesn''t really want to hear any answer except for, "Fine, thanks. How are you?" Although sometimes they tell you their feet are killing them, they''ve been working for the last 8 hours and will be a whole lot better when their shift is over, and I don''t always want to hear all that because I have my own problems that I didn''t burden the cashier with, and I really wish she would have taken her cue from me and also replied, "Fine, thanks." Unless I know her, and then I''ll offer loads of sympathy. I also have a dear friend who talks for a long time anytime I call her, even if it''s just to firm up a play date for our kids. EVEN IF I say I can''t talk long. So I have been known, when I''ve got other plans than to spend an hour on the phone, to fib and tell her I have to leave the house or I''ve got another call coming in, or something like that. So, yes, I lie, because the only other thing I can do is be rude, and I think a tiny fib is kinder and doesn''t do any harm in that case.

 

[diamondfan]

Isn't it a bit funny, in terms of social rhetoric, that we automatically say Fine, when asked how we are, for the most part? Because someone is trying to be socially polite, does it really mean that they want to hear about your mother in law, your gall bladder surgery, your dog vomitting on your rug...NO would be my guess. It is really just a nicety to show civility.

Lumpkin, what if you made and confirmed plans via email? I have a couple pals I do not seem to be able to have quick chats with, so I say, Oh, I am much better via email for little quick back and forths...

the reason I feel a bit guilty about my friend is I think she is totally and completely out of her mind and not fair, as do all of her friends. But SHE does not see it. Therefore, trying to help would only be a mess, mean to the person I am placing, and causing my friend to be upset with me for sending her another incompetent person. (not fast enough, too fast and does a sloppy job, lazy, has a bad attitude, good with the kids and poor with housework, great with the housework but sucks with the kids, slow on the learning curve, doesn't catch on to how she wants things...the list goes on. And she NEVER thinks it could be her, after all this time! And it ain't my job to tell her!)

I think lying to appear more important or successful, while not a shock, does stink. Think of a guy showing up to his high school reunion, a guy who was not cool or successful and he gets a hot girl to accompany him, rents a hot car, and tells stories about how he is such a hot shot now.

A woman lying or bending the truth to help someone else, is a bit different to me. If one is being black and white a lie is a lie, but I do not see it quite that way. Motive is quite important. Lying to help someone else, without hurting them, is not the end of the world to me. If no one gets hurt and in fact you spare someone, without causing them harm later, so be it. Though once I decided to be nice and tell someone that I adored something when I really did not, because they were so excited by it! I then got one for my birthday, and she told me, It was because you admired mine so much! I had to smile sweetly and give it away.

 

[Kaleigh]

To me, it''s not something I am comfortable with. I see the use of a white lie, have done that. But much prefer to infuse the truth in a manner that isn''t hurtful. Case in point. My best friend from high school, my godson''s Mom has memory loss due to her suicide attempt. It''s been a long road to recovery. And part of what is missing is her short term memory. I noticed it from day one. I kept praying it was temporary. One day, she asks me point blank, do I have brain damage. I said yes, it''s possible, your brain was deprived of oxygen. What you are experiencing could be temporary or at worst it could be long term. I said only the neurologist can answer this, maybe not now, but down the road. So I gave the truth, but infused hope along with it. She knew she could count on me for being honest, and we decided we would face whatever lies ahead together. I joked that I remember too much and can tell her all the things she forgets, so no biggie.

 

[lumpkin]

Date: 2/4/2008 1:19:39 AM
Author: diamondfan
Isn''t it a bit funny, in terms of social rhetoric, that we automatically say Fine, when asked how we are, for the most part? Because someone is trying to be socially polite, does it really mean that they want to hear about your mother in law, your gall bladder surgery, your dog vomitting on your rug...NO would be my guess. It is really just a nicety to show civility.

Lumpkin, what if you made and confirmed plans via email? I have a couple pals I do not seem to be able to have quick chats with, so I say, Oh, I am much better via email for little quick back and forths...

the reason I feel a bit guilty about my friend is I think she is totally and completely out of her mind and not fair, as do all of her friends. But SHE does not see it. Therefore, trying to help would only be a mess, mean to the person I am placing, and causing my friend to be upset with me for sending her another incompetent person. (not fast enough, too fast and does a sloppy job, lazy, has a bad attitude, good with the kids and poor with housework, great with the housework but sucks with the kids, slow on the learning curve, doesn''t catch on to how she wants things...the list goes on. And she NEVER thinks it could be her, after all this time! And it ain''t my job to tell her!)

I think lying to appear more important or successful, while not a shock, does stink. Think of a guy showing up to his high school reunion, a guy who was not cool or successful and he gets a hot girl to accompany him, rents a hot car, and tells stories about how he is such a hot shot now.

A woman lying or bending the truth to help someone else, is a bit different to me. If one is being black and white a lie is a lie, but I do not see it quite that way. Motive is quite important. Lying to help someone else, without hurting them, is not the end of the world to me. If no one gets hurt and in fact you spare someone, without causing them harm later, so be it. Though once I decided to be nice and tell someone that I adored something when I really did not, because they were so excited by it! I then got one for my birthday, and she told me, It was because you admired mine so much! I had to smile sweetly and give it away.

She''s not really an email kinda gal, LOL! I could send her an email, but I''d have to CALL her to tell her I sent it, or she might not look at her email in time, then she''d call me anyway. I really don''t see what I''m doing as wrong, so I''ll continue to do it.

Of course, others are free to disagree.

 

[lumpkin]

Date: 2/4/2008 1:43:29 AM
Author: Kaleigh
To me, it''s not something I am comfortable with. I see the use of a white lie, have done that. But much prefer to infuse the truth in a manner that isn''t hurtful. Case in point. My best friend from high school, my godson''s Mom has memory loss due to her suicide attempt. It''s been a long road to recovery. And part of what is missing is her short term memory. I noticed it from day one. I kept praying it was temporary. One day, she asks me point blank, do I have brain damage. I said yes, it''s possible, your brain was deprived of oxygen. What you are experiencing could be temporary or at worst it could be long term. I said only the neurologist can answer this, maybe not now, but down the road. So I gave the truth, but infused hope along with it. She knew she could count on me for being honest, and we decided we would face whatever lies ahead together. I joked that I remember too much and can tell her all the things she forgets, so no biggie.

I would do the same, and in this case it''s about a serious issue rather than about something of no real consequence. I suppose that''s where I draw the line. I hope your friend''s memory loss is temporary, or at least that her short term memory comes back so that she can at least remember the history everyone tells her.

 

[Odilia]

Date: 2/2/2008 3:48:05 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006
I generally agree with DKS, but I think there is a place for tact. We might not love someone''s ring, but we can say, ''Oh, what a pretty diamond!'' I do think there is a time for holding back on our true feelings when it would hurt someone else.

I can think of another example, too. There was a time in the past where someone was harrassing one of my children before caller id. If I answered the phone, I might say my child was not there. A lie? Probably. But in order to protect your children, you may sometimes have to do that.

I agree with DKS & DS. I never lie, contrary to those who say there is no one who doesn''t lie. But like DS said, there is a place for tact, so I can usually find something to compliment in something like, "what a pretty diamond" if I didn''t like the setting, or "I love the color of your dress" even if that''s the ONLY thing you like about it. If they ask a question outright, like, "do you like it?" I would have to say something like, "it wouldn''t be my style, but it looks good on you" if I can honestly say that, and then there are times when I just have to say flat out "well, I''m not crazy about it." Although I guess I am somewhat noted for my gentleness in being honest. For example, I have more than a few times in the past been thanked by guys who were asking me out (when I was single of course!) for my very gentle but honest "dear John" letdown. (They would often thank me because they hated it when girls just put them off, making excuses etc.. instead of just saying "NO". ) Even when planning a surprise party, I always find a way to surprise the guest of honor without lying to them.

Lastly, to address DS''s example, above, for the phone call, I was surpised some years back to find out that moral theologians don''t consider it lying if, for example, someone calls on the phone and you say a person is not there. I think it''s called "mental reservation" or something, and as long as what you mean is, "they''re not available to talk to you" - oh well, I can''t explain it very well; I would have always thought that was a lie, but apparently it''s allowed under the right circumstances or whatever... If this doesn''t make sense, don''t hammer me; you''d have to look it up to get it explained better than I''ve done here.

 

[Independent Gal]

Interesting examples, ladies. You''re giving me lots to think about it.

 

[TravelingGal]

Sure it''s OK to lie. I lie all the time. Even on PS. Heck, I''m neither married nor pregnant. I''m not even Korean. I''m just a bored man trolling for fun.

Just kidding. Or not.

But I wonder...does anonymity on the net make you more honest...or less so? Hm....

Oh, and for the record, I rarely outright lie. But I do sometimes avoid telling people exactly how I feel (in the case of "I love these shoes, do you?" kind of stuff.)

 

[Skippy123]

Date: 2/4/2008 3:48:31 PM
Author: TravelingGal
Sure it's OK to lie. I lie all the time. Even on PS. Heck, I'm neither married nor pregnant. I'm not even Korean. I'm just a bored man trolling for fun.

Just kidding. Or not.

But I wonder...does anonymity on the net make you more honest...or less so? Hm....

Oh, and for the record, I rarely outright lie. But I do sometimes avoid telling people exactly how I feel (in the case of 'I love these shoes, do you?' kind of stuff.)

Love that. lol!

I wonder too. . . hmmmm

 

[Independent Gal]

C''mon T''Gal. Did you really think you fooled us?

 

[diamondfan]

I KNEW something was funky with you!!!

 

[Independent Gal]

Re whether people are more honest online, I have occasionally exaggerated how much I liked a ring I saw on here, but I don't think I've told any other fibs. I would guess that, while it depends on the forum, on a space like pricescope, people are MORE honest. I am 100% sure there have been some 'lies by ommission' during my wedding planning, and then I come to pricescope and vent about it. E.g., I will not tell no. 67 or Birdie how pissed I really was at their bad behaviour. And I can guarantee that I have never said what I "really think" to Crazy Aunt F.

Come to think of it, there have been some LIW posters where I have not said the extent of what I think. But there have been some where I said more than I ever would have in person, and hopefully didn't hurt any feelings. I think I once said that I thought what an LIW was planning to do was "crazy". I wouldn't have used that word in person with a stranger. Almost certainly.

 

[TravelingGal]

Yes, ya got me...your hunch was right...something''s not quite right with TGal....

IG, I don''t think I''ve ever lied on pricescope. Like you, I might have said "nice ring" when I didn''t particularly adore it. But for the most part if I comment, I do like the ring. If I don''t like it, I won''t say anything (although this doesn''t always apply because I don''t go over to SMTR as much as I should...which is strange for a PSers, I know.)

In the same vein, I normally take what people say on PS at face value, but I wonder if I always should!

 

[somethingshiny]

Okay, I''ve just read through all the posts. Interesting how the course of conversation has changed.

Now, I have been wondering about this for a couple days. Do people who don''t lie trust others more than people who lie? For example, I''m likely to trust everyone. If they screw me, then I''m done, but I''ll always give them the chance. I know people who have to have their trust earned by every person. So, is that to say that they are more prone to lying and that''s why their guard''s up (in self-protection), because they expect everyone to be untrustworthy (as they view themselves)?

 

[Haven]

I certainly did not mean to say that I believe people on Pricescope lie--I was just using that as an example of how I''ve seen PSers bending the truth, so to speak.

somethingshiny--You bring up an interesting question about trusting others and how it relates to how much one lies. I have to say that I think that depends entirely on the person. Let me illustrate by sharing a little story:

My father is the kindest man in the world. He is almost too nice, as in people have sometimes taken advantage of his kindness. Now, a part of being too nice also means that he wants to please everyone. This means that he is also a bit of a fibber, because he would lie about things to try to make everyone happy. Example: He used to lie about silly things when I was in high school--"Yes, I switched your laundry from the washer, it''s all dry now" and then I''d come home and it would still be sitting in the washer, heavy and wet. Now, I don''t think his lies were malicious AT ALL, in fact, I think he actually believed that he *was going to* switch the laundry (in this case) and therefore just said what he said because he believed that it would be the truth in the near future. NOW, as an adult who was raised by someone who told these so-called "little white lies" to try to make everyone happy, am I perhaps a wee bit less likely to simply trust someone just because? Absolutely. I''ve almost been trained to question people''s sincerity. (I want to add that my parents are the most wonderful people in the world, and I think they did an outstanding job raising their children. This story just seemed to be a good way to answer somethingshiny''s question as it pertains to me, personally.)

I''ll also say that these little lies did end up becoming larger issues at times, and as a result I think I''m also less-prone to lie about things. I''m also very conscious of whether I feel like I''m being lied to, and I''ll admit that I''m a bit sensitive to it.

I said it earlier, though, I will lie to spare someone''s feelings, as in "Oh, how kind of you to ask about our wedding. The truth is that we''re only having a very small wedding with our closest friends and family members" if someone who isn''t invited asks if they should expect an invitation. (This only happened with one coworker, and it did feel awkward, yes, but I believe it was better than saying "Oh, no, we aren''t inviting you, you didn''t make the cut. But we are inviting 200 other people, consider yourself number 201."

 

[diamondfan]

I would think one might be wary of traits in others that they themselves have. They might be on the lookout for that stuff since they do it to others.

I do not lie here, or in real life, for the most part. I really do not consider those little fibs to be major. I would not lie about a health issue or someone''s safety if the lie puts anyone in jeopardy. I WOULD lie to help or save someone. But do I tell telemarketers that I am the babysitter and the Mrs. and Mr. are not home? Heck yeah. Gladly and repeatedly.

There are times here I opt not to post, rather than say something I do not mean. I do not HAVE to respond to things, therefore if I really cannot find something nice to say most times I skip it. I have been gently honest on certain threads when something seems odd or the thread takes a certain direction. And while I hope and like to think all people here are coming from an honest place, I could not say for sure...if my gut tells me something I just avoid those threads.

 

[phoenixgirl]

Tact is a whole different question, IMO.

My dad got alopaecia (sp?) a couple of years ago and his hair fell out to a large degree and turned white. A couple of months in he asked if his hair was getting better in the back, and I told the truth, no, not really. From the disappointed look on my dad''s face, I realized he would have much rather heard a lie!

Luckily, it grew back in thick and gray in the end.

When I answered this question, it was in terms of when I would actually make something important up. Not, yes, your hair looks good or I love your engagement ring, but a situation where we''re not tactfully complimenting/reassuring people about their appearance. That''s just part of being polite, just like saying, "Fine." I don''t think anyone would appreciate it if I blurted out, "Well, things could be better. I''m suffering from unexplain fatigue and my dad was just diagnosed with prostate cancer!" if they said, "Hi, how are you?" in the hall. That expression is a greeting/acknowledgement, not an actual question.

Other than the abused student, I can''t remember the last time I outright lied. With my pathological coworker, I just try to avoid her, but sometimes that''s not possible. I would lie in an instant if I thought she was fishing to entrap me.

 

[perry]

Two quotes come to mind; and I do not know the authors...

"There are lies, Lies, and Dam Lies..."

"Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip...."

So, yes I lie; and I have not yet achieved the ultimate level of tact either...



Perry

 

[Harriet]

No.

 

[movie zombie]

oddly enough i am known for being brutally honest.....even when i think i''ve tried to soften it. when someone asks me how i am i don''t suck it up and say ''fine'' because i know my face and body language betray me. yes, i know people are only being polite....but if you don''t want the answer, don''t ask the question as you may actually hear me say i''ve been better or things are a bit of mess right now. but i gotta tell you, i do and will lie when it is the moral thing to do. think about the family hiding the frank family and other people from the nazi''s during WWII. i will lie about knowing my friend is gay if he''s not out and isn''t willing to deal with being questioned by someone else. i don''t lie when something looks bad on someone. again, don''t ask the question if you don''t want the answer. but like the example re the dad and asking about hair, some times some people do want the lie. life is not black and white but many shades of gray. i think i prefer it that way.

movie zombie