Is It Really True? GIA/AGS Compared To EGL

[mseh3737]

Just so everybody knows I am NOT contesting that EGL is as good or grades as the same level as GIA or AGS, I am simple looking for actual unbiased or opinioned proof. I do not want an apples to apples comparison, I want a golden delicious apple to golden delicious apple comparison.

I can show you a golden delicious example(unless you consider the labs biased) here of a diamond with 2 different certificates. I don't own this diamond...I am just showing you an example. I'm not insinuating that there is a right or wrong here...it is just a fact of this industry. This is not unique. You are naive if you think differently. Now, you can say that the 2 diamonds are not the same, but I think that we all know that they are. The measurements are often off a bit when a diamond is certed by more than 1 lab. A few things come to mind here: bottom line is that at some point you are going to need to trust the seller of the diamond, don't always buy the paper...you are buying a tangible product which you can have your own opinion on AND... Buyer ALWAYS beware.

 

[oldminer]

When a consumer wants to buy a diamond they are compelled to either believe the paperwork supplied with the stone or If they don't feel compelled, they probably will not buy that particular stone because they are being cautious. When experts in the diamond trade virtually all say and agree that the grading between GIA-AGS and other labs is somewhat off, you should realize that that it may well be one of the very few things most experts do basically agree on. The only logical reason is that dealers and experts simply know what's up. Many of us are sick about it, but what can individuals do? We live with it and expose it to help consumers be protected.

 

[denverappraiser]

This is the proof you keep asking for/ignoring.

Just so everybody knows I am NOT contesting that EGL is as good or grades as the same level as GIA or AGS, I am simple looking for actual unbiased or opinioned proof. I do not want an apples to apples comparison, I want a golden delicious apple to golden delicious apple comparison.

I'm still waiting for permission from clients to post examples and it is likely to take a few days but bear in mind that examples like you're asking for is still proof of nothing. You're still not comparing your apples to apples, golden delicious or otherwise. What you are needing is a sample set of a few hundred 'random' stones that are sent to each participating lab in a controlled experiment. Given that the labs charge fees for their work and this would need to be a blind study to be of any merit whatever, I can't imagine why anyone would be interested in doing this. Can you? Assume you've got, say, 5 labs that you would like to compare and 200 stones in the study. That's actually sort of a small sample set but it's a decent start. Including shipping and some sort of control system and you're looking at an investment of well over $100,000 to 'prove' something that isn't being disputed, even by the labs themselves. As far as I know, no one has done this. Importantly, who would do it and what would be the point?

 

[DanMgy]

There we go, that is a great start and what I am looking for, the only thing that I have to question is the age of the two reports. I know that since the EGL report was issued even the GIA has changed their measuring method.

Is there any way to see those larger?? I am not 100% familiar with all the features and functions on the forum.

 

[WinkHPD]

So, you aren't going to find many examples of what you seek.

That right there is the SOLE purpose of my post. I have not seen ANY, ZERO, NONE, ZILCH examples, nor has anybody been able to produce any.

Also, I think it's a little unfair to be questioning John Pollard's post since he probably sees many more diamonds in one day than you and I will see in a year's time, and he would have no reason to exaggerate what he saw.

Please do not misinterupt what I am asking for or saying, the experts on here are experts, I am not doubting that or questioning that. I am simple asking for the hard line proof. I think it would fair to say that one persons evaluation could varify from another.

If all the vendors (online retailers) that swear and state that EGL is so much worse and there is true value in purchasing a diamond that has GIA or AGS certification, why have none of them spent the $100 (give or take) to actually show the actual proof? I do not mean their opinions, or independent appraisals, I mean the same diamond with EGL and GIA or AGS certificate?

I took one in in trade once, I forget the exact grades etc, but when I sent it to GIA it came in one clarity and two colors less than the EGL. I sold it with the GIA paper long ago and threw the trash report out. So no, I do not have the hard line proof you are looking for, but I did once, it was NOT worth saving...

Wink

 

[Rockdiamond]

Here's how it was offered to me....



Hard to predict exactly how a stone of this color will grade by GIA.....but we knew it wasn't no I color- buying this type of stone requires one to be very confident in what they are buying- regardless of the report
Below is the results of this experiment.
Not too close to an I color.
In fairness- the I color was issued by a foreign EGL, different than EGL USA

 

[stone-cold11]

Interesting, totally different pavilion facet layout.

 

[denverappraiser]

If all the vendors (online retailers) that swear and state that EGL is so much worse and there is true value in purchasing a diamond that has GIA or AGS certification, why have none of them spent the $100 (give or take) to actually show the actual proof? I do not mean their opinions, or independent appraisals, I mean the same diamond with EGL and GIA or AGS certificate?

EGL stones are not 'worse'. They are what they are. EGL does not use the same grading scales as GIA, nor do they claim to. This is not bad, it's not worse, and it's not evidence that these other labs are better. They're different. The stone is whatever it is regardless of what the lab says and it's not the lab that makes beautiful stones beautiful. Many people find documents from other labs to be more useful as shopping tools but it's a criticism of the document, not of the stone. The most important criticism of EGL, in my opinion, is that they are inconsistent in their grading between the various labs and sometimes even within the same lab, not that they don't exactly match their competitors grading scales. To test this you would need examples a stone that was sent to the same lab several times over a long period with different results. They're clever enough to undermine this by using Sarin and other data to automatically recognize stones that have been sent to them before and that haven't changed. I'm confident I could design a double blind experiment to work through this and give them a good idea of their consistency but it would not be free and, again, who would benefit by commissioning such an audit? GIA or people who are hoping to sell stones with GIA paperwork? They're doing just fine. GIA is one of the strongest brand names in the industry. How would this help? People who are hoping to sell stones with EGL paperwork? Maybe, but only if they believed the results would be to their benefit. EGL or EGL-USA themselves? Even better. They have the incentive and they have the money, but as with the above, it would only make sense if they thought the results would help their reputations rather than make it worse. I'm confident they've considered it and maybe even done it. Apparently they've opted against or at least against publicly publishing the results.

 

[Dreamer_D]

This is the proof you keep asking for/ignoring.

Just so everybody knows I am NOT contesting that EGL is as good or grades as the same level as GIA or AGS, I am simple looking for actual unbiased or opinioned proof. I do not want an apples to apples comparison, I want a golden delicious apple to golden delicious apple comparison.

I'm still waiting for permission from clients to post examples and it is likely to take a few days but bear in mind that examples like you're asking for is still proof of nothing. You're still not comparing your apples to apples, golden delicious or otherwise. What you are needing is a sample set of a few hundred 'random' stones that are sent to each participating lab in a controlled experiment. Given that the labs charge fees for their work and this would need to be a blind study to be of any merit whatever, I can't imagine why anyone would be interested in doing this. Can you? Assume you've got, say, 5 labs that you would like to compare and 200 stones in the study. That's actually sort of a small sample set but it's a decent start. Including shipping and some sort of control system and you're looking at an investment of well over $100,000 to 'prove' something that isn't being disputed, even by the labs themselves. As far as I know, no one has done this. Importantly, who would do it and what would be the point?

Exactly, the samples you seek, like the two posted here, are no more proof than are the "fish stories" you mentioned

The best proof was that provided by Jon illustrating the pricing difference between the two labs. Informed individuals who can judge diamond color and clarity very well with their own eyes (i.e., diamond vendors) choose where to send stones to maximize their value on the market. If they choose to send to EGL, given their almost 50% valuation on the market relative to GIA, then there is a reason. And that reason is what has been proposed -- that EGL is softer in their grading.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Interesting, totally different pavilion facet layout.

Good catch Stone!

GIA has the correct plot diagram. Big surprise?

DanMgy, in my opinion, one of the big values of a forum like this one is that it allows professionals with a lot of experience to share that experience with consumers.
Over time, if a vendor is not being truthful or accurate in their statements, it will all come out in the wash.

With regards to this discussion, I personally have spent many hours reinforcing the realities of the business. That being-diamonds graded by EGL are generally considered to be not accurately graded, and trade for a lot less than diamonds of the same grade graded by GIA.
This is just a fact of life in the diamond business, and is so for very good reason. There have been a number of discussions lately questioning why the status quo is what it is. Or, more accurately, people trying to get over by buying EGL graded diamonds, thinking they're going to get a bargain. The problem is, consumers are not as savvy in diamond grading as the people selling the diamonds.
Therefore, if you try to play this game, the chances of you actually winning are between slim and none.
Furthermore, it's very important that we continue to educate consumers about this problem, so that they do not get taken in by sellers offering EGL reports at parity with GIA reports

 

[DanMgy]

Interesting, totally different pavilion facet layout.

I was just noticing that as well and that raises another question I would like to pose. I understand with a round brilliant cut you should have 57 facets, but with fancy cuts there are variations. The one in perticular that I am conerned with is the cushion cut. I get the color and clarity will be off, but will the diagram showing the cut facets be off as well?

Can anybody weigh in on this point? Will all GIA, AGS, EGL and so one all be different in how the display the facets?

One of the stones I am going to be getting is a cushion cut and the facet stucture is important.

 

[DanMgy]

I'm confident they've considered it and maybe even done it. Apparently they've opted against or at least against publicly publishing the results.

You make very very valid points and I think that in part to my original question is something that has been lingering as a thought. The ultimate fact is that all of the grading companies exist to make money, if they are non-profit they represent a controlled market with very little oversight. For good or for bad it is the system that is put in place, but a little assurance knowing that my investment will grow over time is nice.

To address your previous post about needing

What you are needing is a sample set of a few hundred 'random' stones that are sent to each participating lab in a controlled experiment.

Yes and no on this, it would truly depend on your sample set and data points. The one thing I do know is statistics, if you are familiar with a process called six sigma I am certified as a black belt. So I have done many MANY many research projects and understand better than most. The study could be done with 10 stones or 10,000, what it really depends on is how good your data is, how many data points you get back and how relevant the data is. You set the delta you need to see and once you start seeing a that delta in a pareto chart you technically have sufficient results.

So what does this all mean and what are the results that I would noticed?

1. There is no set standard, it is all opinion based.
2. Buy what you like and pay what you think it is worth.
3. GIA, AGS, EGL and so on, all have their own focus and server their own purpose (just have to decide on the right one for you).
4. Every diamond is hand cut, so there will ALWAYS be a variation in the truth.
5. Ultimately I love her and I am doing this to make her happy... all she cares about is how "shiny" it will be

I again want thank you and that I hope and did not mean offended anybody (if I did by chance) and I truly do appreciate all of the feedback and posts from every person that was kind enough to take the time and share their knowledge and thoughts on the matter.

I will have to try and post a picture of her mother's ring, it is mind-blowing... the center stone is pear shape 8.87 cts, EX, EX, IF, E, None (oh and it's GIA Cert). You want to talk about competition

 

[AnneinGA]

Dan,
I'm curious about the reason why you're asking for actual proof. Is it because you want to be convinced with cold hard evidence that an EGL you may be considering isn't a bad choice for the price? Is it you think that it looks fine to you so why not buy it? Could it REALLY be that much different?

My first post on this board, almost a year ago, was similar to yours about EGS vs. GIA. And now since i"m here more I see about every 3 to 4 weeks (if that long) someone comes on here with similar topic headings, because there MUST be a good deal in diamonds and EGL must be a better deal since they offer the same diamonds for less.

Giving you apples to apples is almost impossible for the reasons that have been listed, and two vendors have already done just that. I too started out thinking that maybe I could really do a 'good deal' with an EGL and had a potential local internet vendor chosen and some stones I could see. I researched and researched, and was pretty certain I could find what I wanted at a better price. Then I got educated with this site, and compared lots of stones against one another, and realized that there really is a premium difference, and go figure, I ended up with a five-stone AGS 000 ring, and have never looked back - and probably will never buy EGL.

Bottom line - get educated, and you will get what you pay for.

 

[kenny]

I think is is unnecessary and even absurd to insist on courtroom-proof proof regarding this matter.

Industry pro after industry pro with decades of experience, and nothing to gain by lying, have posted similar experience over and over here during the six years I have been reading PS.
Consistently the verdict is: EGL grades softer and less consistently than GIA/AGS and the "proof" is in the pricing.
That's good enough for me.

Furthermore, since nobody can produce positive DNA-match, blood type-match, eye-witnesses, security video footage and crime scene fingerprints, there is an annoying and ridiculous implication that EGL does NOT grade softly.
"You can't prove it so it is not true", doesn't cut it with lots of stuff.

Plus, generalizations based on vast experience are not disproven by the occasional exception.

I find the type of faulty thinking that this thread is based on to be annoying, and this thread has done nothing to elevate my impression of EGL.
Frankly it makes me wonder whether this thread is from someone with a vested interest in EGL.
I'm not accusing the OP of being a sockie for EGL - I'm just saying AFAIC this thread just drives the nails further into EGL's coffin.

 

[DanMgy]

Dan,
I'm curious about the reason why you're asking for actual proof. Is it because you want to be convinced with cold hard evidence that an EGL you may be considering isn't a bad choice for the price? Is it you think that it looks fine to you so why not buy it? Could it REALLY be that much different?

Good and valid question, the main purpose was to truly understand the spread between the grading companies. I have studied engineering and mathematics for awhile, and two things I studied were theory statistics and analysis of variances. Which in short means two things, a theory about stats is neither right nor wrong, second is, if the results of your sample pool variance grows as the numbers sample size grow you have what is called a "random-effect". What does that all mean, in the short time I have been able to study and research the grading of diamonds my results would state that there is no constant. You can have an excellent cut from GIA but it would not be a 0 Ideal cut from AGS. There are no standards, it is all pure variance. Example: Tolkowsky’s gave specific dimensions of what would be called a "perfect/ideal" cut diamond. It has been slightly updated since then but you can check it and do the math, numbers never lie. But since it is too difficult to hit those exact numbers every time, the "industry" would never acknowledge OR allow it to be called and recognized as the perfect or ideal cut. It is kind of like the highlander... there can only be 1.

Second reason: If I paid $15,000 for an EGL diamond, what would I get with a GIA or AGS diamond? I know that it will be lower quality but based on that lower quality how much would it cost me to purchase the lower quality if it were graded by GIA or AGS? Make sense? Put another way:

Diamond A - GIA Certified
Round Brilliant
1.7 cts
Color: I
Clarity VS2
Cut: VG
Polish: VG
Symmetry: G
Cost $10,000

Diamond B - EGL Certified
Round Brilliant
1.7 cts
Color: G
Clarity VVS1
Cut: EX
Polish: EX
Symmetry: EX
Cost $8,500

If the theory of what everybody says about EGL, that you loose 1 to 3 points because they grade soft two diamonds would essentially match up, but you would have a lower cost of $1,500 because it was EGL certified. I wanted to know if I got a higher quality EGL would that price match up with a comparable GIA or AGS diamond. Asking the question outright would affect the sample pool and responses of people. I am sure that many have done the numbers, but I needed to do them myself. Make sense?

 

[DanMgy]

Consistently the verdict is: EGL grades softer and less consistently than GIA/AGS and the "proof" is in the pricing.

Yes, I agree and will not deny that. Now the question becomes what is the variance between the pricing. I think part of the problem is that everybody is focused on comparing "price per carat" and what should be looking at is "price per actual quality per carat". I am looking at it as a 1ct GIA/AGS xxx is $10k verse a 1ct EGL yyy is $7k, the actual not the reported, what the true delta between them is.

Frankly it makes me wonder whether this thread is from someone with a vested interest in EGL.

That is something you will never know .... [insert evil menicing laugh here]

You know I visit a few message boards and use the same handle/screen name and I honestly have that SAME exact thought A LOT, well not about me but about people posting. I mean, even on this site, this is a for profit site, so people are paying for advertising so there has to be some type of return for them, right?

Right now I personally think AGS is stricter then GIA and am looking to get a diamond that has a cert from them... for round cut. The cushion and pear ones I am going to get I am still up in the air about.

I'm not accusing the OP of being a sockie for EGL

Not really sure what a "sockie" is but I am in this game for me, me alone and if anybody wants to listen to what I say or think, that is his or her choice.

 

[minmin001]

Dan,
I'm curious about the reason why you're asking for actual proof. Is it because you want to be convinced with cold hard evidence that an EGL you may be considering isn't a bad choice for the price? Is it you think that it looks fine to you so why not buy it? Could it REALLY be that much different?

Good and valid question, the main purpose was to truly understand the spread between the grading companies. I have studied engineering and mathematics for awhile, and two things I studied were theory statistics and analysis of variances. Which in short means two things, a theory about stats is neither right nor wrong, second is, if the results of your sample pool variance grows as the numbers sample size grow you have what is called a "random-effect". What does that all mean, in the short time I have been able to study and research the grading of diamonds my results would state that there is no constant. You can have an excellent cut from GIA but it would not be a 0 Ideal cut from AGS. There are no standards, it is all pure variance. Example: Tolkowsky’s gave specific dimensions of what would be called a "perfect/ideal" cut diamond. It has been slightly updated since then but you can check it and do the math, numbers never lie. But since it is too difficult to hit those exact numbers every time, the "industry" would never acknowledge OR allow it to be called and recognized as the perfect or ideal cut. It is kind of like the highlander... there can only be 1.

Second reason: If I paid $15,000 for an EGL diamond, what would I get with a GIA or AGS diamond? I know that it will be lower quality but based on that lower quality how much would it cost me to purchase the lower quality if it were graded by GIA or AGS? Make sense? Put another way:

Diamond A - GIA Certified
Round Brilliant
1.7 cts
Color: I
Clarity VS2
Cut: VG
Polish: VG
Symmetry: G
Cost $10,000

Diamond B - EGL Certified
Round Brilliant
1.7 cts
Color: G
Clarity VVS1
Cut: EX
Polish: EX
Symmetry: EX
Cost $8,500

If the theory of what everybody says about EGL, that you loose 1 to 3 points because they grade soft two diamonds would essentially match up, but you would have a lower cost of $1,500 because it was EGL certified. I wanted to know if I got a higher quality EGL would that price match up with a comparable GIA or AGS diamond. Asking the question outright would affect the sample pool and responses of people. I am sure that many have done the numbers, but I needed to do them myself. Make sense?

If you pay $15000, you get a $15000 worth of diamond, simple as that.
Do you think a seller will lower cost of $1,500 because it's EGL certified when they can spend alot less to get the same diamond GIA certified?

 

[Rockdiamond]

If you pay $15000, you get a $15000 worth of diamond, simple as that.
Do you think a seller will lower cost of $1,500 because it's EGL certified when they can spend alot less to get the same diamond GIA certified?

Actually, it's not even that simple. There are different aspects of diamond ownership that are important to people. At the level of enjoyment, if we put aside everything else for a moment, ostensibly an EGL graded diamond that is very well cut, might be just as good as the GIA diamond in many cases.
But now let's not put aside those other issues and consider them. Such as: value retention. We can all agree that diamonds do not make a sound financial investment for consumers, taken in that manner.
however, if we compare diamonds to other durable goods that people buy, some diamonds actually retain value much better than just about anything, other than real estate, that people buy. Sad to say, in some cases, these desirable diamonds are better than real estate nowadays.
The point is, if you have invested $15,000 in the diamond at some point in time, and now is the time to sell it, having that GIA report is going to make a huge difference.

With regard to trying to calibrate the difference between GIA EGL: the point is, the difference is not consistent. There are times that EGL grades identically to GIA. However, there are plenty of times when that is not the case, and EGL is far more lenient. Therefore, by its very nature, it makes no sense trying to calibrate the difference between the two. If you're going to buy an EGL graded diamond, you better know how to grade that diamond yourself.

Speaking from experience, the diamonds that I see on the market, which are graded by EGL, usually have a big excuse.
in some cases it's because the diamond is an off white color, like the pear-shaped diamond I posted above.

However, if were talking about more "traditional" diamonds, such as colorless stones, and round ones at that, a fair percentage of the diamonds that I see which of been submitted EGL, usually have deficiencies in cut or other areas that the dealer or cutter submitting them is trying to hide.
In general, the nicest stones get sent the GIA.
If there's nothing wrong with the diamond, the cutter/ dealer knows that they need to use GIA to get top dollar

 

[denverappraiser]

I’m just a lowly appraiser and accountant. I wouldn’t claim to be a black belt in either Six Sigma or sstatistics but yes, I’m familiar with them both.

Unfortunately, in addition to the internal consistency problem on the subject lab, we’ve got a moving target at GIA. They enjoy the position of being the veritable definition of a ‘correct’ grade, but they aren’t 100% internally consistent either.

At GIA they have a program where, if you are unhappy with the results you can have a stone re-inspected for a fee to see if you can get a better grade. If they upgrade it then the re-exam is free except for time, if they downgrade it costs money. I know people who do this quite a bit and with fairly good success but the vast majority of customers never do. If GIA calls it a particular grade, that’s what it is. If that’s too generous, they get a bonus and if that’s too harsh they either scrap the document and send the stone elsewhere or just suck it up and sell it as it is. Maybe they don’t know and maybe they just don’t want to fight but it doesn’t really matter. On average, this means that GIA reports in the marketplace are slightly more generous than the results from the lab and those who just take their lumps are suffering from a competitive disadvantage because their GIA is harsher than their competitors’. It’s something of a sacrilige to say ths in light of the scandal a few years ago (google ‘certifigate’) but unfortunately, this means that it DOES matter who submits the stone for grading, even if it’s 100% blind internally.

It’s MUCH more severe at other labs where people are on notice about the game. EGL-USA offers a ‘pregrade’ service where they’ll tell you what a stone will grade out as for a substantially discounted fee. The client then has the opportunity to demand a regrade, accept the results and pay for a ‘full’ report, or spike the deal and go somewhere else. Obviously I don’t have internal data from EGL but I would venture to guess that this is the route for MOST of the stones they examine. This decision is being made by clients, most of whom are gemologists in their own right and who are making it based on a financial, not a gemological basis. This is why John’s statistics above are so telling. Few people care what grade it is, the question is what pedigree will result in the higest sales price the fastest. The vote has come in the form of how they set their prices in a competitive marketplace and what prices their customers are willing ot pay. Again, this is a much a financial quesiton as it is a gemological one.

You’re looking for a ‘correct’ answer where you can then choose an outlier as evidence of a bargain. Unfortunately price is one of the variables, not the conclusion and, as you point out, these other variables are far from well defined. Stones were not created with a pedigree, someone CHOSE the lab, and usually that someone was an expert in their own right. They paid good money to get it papered and the choice was made with the objective of maximizing sales price and/or sell through speed. Period. If a bargain slipped through, it was a mistake. If they showed it to several labs and chose one, you will never see the other reports or even know that they exist. Even if the reason is because GIA is the one that was ‘wrong’, you have no way to know this. If they sold it to another dealer, and that dealer thinks they screwed it up somehow leaving a few bucks on the table, they have the opportunity to do it all over again and again, the trail becomes invisible.