Is the premium price for precision stones worth it to you?

[brandy_z28]

Re: Is the premium price for precision stones worth it to yo

I like how Lady Disdain described the stones themselves.

I can be a little bit of a cut whore (ahem) BUT I will only pay so much of a premium. I love Barry's cuts, and I'm always willing to pay his premium--I never feel like he's taking advantage of the customer, and I think he goes to great pains to price things fairly. I'd buy from Dan Stair, Peter Torraca, John Burleyson, Gene, etc...

The premiums I find to be too much? Richard Homer and Jeff White. I won't buy from them.

Agree 100%, right down to the specific names. I'm also a precision cut nut. Now that I've discovered them, I hardly wear my old non-precision cut stuff anymore. I've bought from all of the people Freke mentioned in the first paragraph. But there are premiums and then there are PREMIUMS. I'm OK with paying a little bit more for precision, but there's a limit.

x3 for the most part.

I'm not hung up on a stone having to be precision cut but I prefer it over non-precision cut stones. My problem seems to be the finding the stones with the great color from the precision facetors before they're already scooped up. The majority of my recent stone purchases have been non-precision cuts because I've fallen for the color and just couldn't let the stone go for the price. Give and take...

 

[PrecisionGem]

Re: Is the premium price for precision stones worth it to yo

About the cuts.... and I'm not going to get started on this, but years ago I sold pretty much exclusively to the trade. At that time, it was the more exotic cuts that the jewelers wanted. They didn't want rounds or supernova type ovals, they could get those anywhere, what they wanted were the unique cuts. These were then crafted into a one of a kind piece. The economy tanked, and jeweler are not buying as much as they are working through their existing inventory. Now my business has changed to mostly consumers, and they want simple rounds, ovals, cushions, and don't get too fancy with the designs Mr. Gene!

Gene, thank you for talking about this because I had wondered for a while why precision cutters don't do the fancy designs so much. I'm actually rather surprised that consumers are not lining up for those. I had always assumed that cutters did the simple rounds and ovals because they were easy, and I'm glad to be wrong.

I think the answer is one word "LOGR". Before everyone started buying these settings I was selling and cutting much more fancy shapes. I think the truth is, that many special shapes will still fit into standard settings. When I lived in Buffalo I had a jeweler I did a lot of work for, and he would buy findings from Stellar etc, and always fit custom stone into them.

I do think a lot of the stones you see the cutters doing that are round are because they are fast to cut. I know I've gotten my self caught up in the round and square cushion thing lately. From a business standpoint they make sense; they cut fast, sell fast. From an artistic standpoint they make no sense.

 

[VapidLapid]

Re: Is the premium price for precision stones worth it to yo

I like great cuts and I like great color and I see no reason to sacrifice one for the other. When I Was just starting out I was more tolerant of lesser cutting ( not to be confused with "native" which can be quite fine imo). Now that I have or have had most of the types of stones I would like, I am less likely to consider an average, mediocre cut with good color. I prefer to hold out longer, save a little more to be able to spend more to get what I really want.

 

[Kismet]

Re: Is the premium price for precision stones worth it to yo

I think part of the premium some of the lapidaries charge is for their name. It's like buying from Tiffany's... you're going to pay more just because it's from Tiffany's not necessarily because it's inherently better. That being said, I have a Richard Homer stone and I would love to get a John Dyer stone one day too. I also have some pieces from Tiffany's.

 

[PrecisionGem]

Re: Is the premium price for precision stones worth it to yo

I'm not sure there is any premium charged by most of the lapidaries for stones. I had a look at the advice of one of the prominent posters here at the famous Thai guy who many currently are buying from, thinking to buy stones to recut. Well his prices were the same that I would have charged for the stone, so there is no way I could buy them to recut. Some of the fantasy type cuts, of course you need to pay a premium of a standard cut. Most commercial cutting houses, each cutter is involved with around 20 to 30 stones per day. Compare this to a stone that may take 12 hours to cut. The commercial cutting housed often work like an assembly line. One guy only preforms, one dops, one cuts the pavilion, hand the stone off to anther who cuts and polishes in one operation etc. So in effect each guy may do 30 stones. These people are paid very little, and yet the finished stones are being sold at prices comparable to many custom cutters. I think there is actually a premium being paid for this type of product.

 

[MakingTheGrade]

Re: Is the premium price for precision stones worth it to yo

I get custom setting for almost all my gems anyways, so I keep an eye out for quirky cuts.
Most of them still fall in the round/oval/cushion family though.

 

[T L]

Re: Is the premium price for precision stones worth it to yo

I'm not sure there is any premium charged by most of the lapidaries for stones. I had a look at the advice of one of the prominent posters here at the famous Thai guy who many currently are buying from, thinking to buy stones to recut. Well his prices were the same that I would have charged for the stone, so there is no way I could buy them to recut. Some of the fantasy type cuts, of course you need to pay a premium of a standard cut. Most commercial cutting houses, each cutter is involved with around 20 to 30 stones per day. Compare this to a stone that may take 12 hours to cut. The commercial cutting housed often work like an assembly line. One guy only preforms, one dops, one cuts the pavilion, hand the stone off to anther who cuts and polishes in one operation etc. So in effect each guy may do 30 stones. These people are paid very little, and yet the finished stones are being sold at prices comparable to many custom cutters. I think there is actually a premium being paid for this type of product.

The "famous Thai guy" has prices that have gone up A LOT lately. In the beginning, I was buying more, as they were less expensive, but I can concur his prices on some material are as much as a lapidary such as yourself. You do have good pricing for a precision lapidary though. He sometimes has some good bargains, but I have noticed they are few and far between lately. I still think his prices are way lower than some other precision lapidaries that charge through the roof for their cutting, or some vendors that sell colored gems (native or precision cut). You're not one of those very expensive lapidaries.

 

[deorwine]

Re: Is the premium price for precision stones worth it to yo

I think the answer is one word "LOGR". Before everyone started buying these settings I was selling and cutting much more fancy shapes. I think the truth is, that many special shapes will still fit into standard settings. When I lived in Buffalo I had a jeweler I did a lot of work for, and he would buy findings from Stellar etc, and always fit custom stone into them.

Hee. This may explain why I seem to be a bit of an outlier... I don't do those settings either, though I know they're big favorites on this board. But I could see how a non-round interesting shape would maybe not do so well in a round halo.

 

[lavatea]

Re: Is the premium price for precision stones worth it to yo

I see Jeff White's name now and then listed as one of the expensive lapidaries, so I just wanted to throw out my own (albeit limited) experience with him (not trying to be a fanboy - just trying to provide another perspective). I feel that I paid about as much for my stone from him as I would have from a number of our preferred vendors - and he was willing to do custom for me, which I've found a few of the guys unwilling (or maybe it was just unable) to do.

In my own experience, I've felt that Lisa Elser and Doug at Bespoke charged a much higher premium on stones I bought from them than the stone I bought from Jeff. But I've enjoyed my dealings with both of them as well, so I probably will buy from them in the future anyway (depending on project and stone availabilities).

Anyway - yes, for me it's worth it. But I don't buy often, so maybe my opinion would change if I did. Doubt it, though.

As for the fancy cuts, though some of them are cool looking, I just don't know how I would set/wear them. So I don't really lust after them the way I do rounds, ovals, cushions, pears, etc. Man, I really want a nice cushion...

 

[faegrace]

Re: Is the premium price for precision stones worth it to yo

My experience with Jeff too, Lavatea. Jeff charged no more than the other lapidaries for the same material, and I have a completely custom gem I love. I think to make a blanket statement that he always charges a high premium isn't true, as with most blanket statements.... For someone to say they don't want to pay "his prices" is, of course, their choice.

I love my spess from Doug but I do wish I would've shopped around even more. I think I could've gotten a comparable gem for substantially less.

I will buy a Dyer gem someday. It won't be a fantasy cut (oops, that's another thread!) but I love his TM cuts, like the Regal Radiant on a square gem. Gorgeous.

~ faegrace

 

[TristanC]

Re: Is the premium price for precision stones worth it to yo

Is there a reason why none of the gem cutters work with diamonds? There are few if any fancy coloured diamond cutters with a name that I can find...

Would be interesting to know if anyone does that kind of stuff. Or is the market too small? Or the rough too difficult to obtain?

 

[Roger Dery]

Re: Is the premium price for precision stones worth it to yo

Is there a reason why none of the gem cutters work with diamonds? There are few if any fancy coloured diamond cutters with a name that I can find...

Would be interesting to know if anyone does that kind of stuff. Or is the market too small? Or the rough too difficult to obtain?

Hi TristanC,
The types of machines that are produced for processing coloured gemstones, and not built to work on diamonds. As far as the process is concerned, there are many similarities, but the equipment is different.

In addition, diamond rough must go through the Kimberley Process to be available for cutting. I do not know of any, nor have I ever heard of any coloured stone cutters who are KP approved.

It is my understanding though, there are still several small shops in mid-town Manhattan that can produce smalls in various colours. But I don't follow the diamond trade anymore except what I see in the trade mags.

 

[Aoife]

Re: Is the premium price for precision stones worth it to yo

My experience with Jeff too, Lavatea. Jeff charged no more than the other lapidaries for the same material, and I have a completely custom gem I love. I think to make a blanket statement that he always charges a high premium isn't true, as with most blanket statements.... For someone to say they don't want to pay "his prices" is, of course, their choice.

I love my spess from Doug but I do wish I would've shopped around even more. I think I could've gotten a comparable gem for substantially less.

I will buy a Dyer gem someday. It won't be a fantasy cut (oops, that's another thread!) but I love his TM cuts, like the Regal Radiant on a square gem. Gorgeous.

~ faegrace

I'm with Lavatea and Faegrace on this. I really have not found Jeff's prices to be significantly higher than other precision cutters, but I've also only had a couple of stones cut by him, so I suppose I could end up changing my opinion on that as I have him do more work for me.

In general, if there is a higher price from precision cutters, it's definitely worth it for me.

 

[mastercutgems]

Re: Is the premium price for precision stones worth it to yo

All of us cutters love it when you buy from us and are pleased with your purchase

It makes us feel good that we were able to make you smile with our "labors of love " but seriously one must sit and ponder what is valuable to them in this life. If you love sparkle with your color I would say it is worth your money to buy a precision or well cut colored gem. If you just like color alone then you will be able to get away with buying a less precision or thought out cut in a colored gem.

I for one will not say I or any precision cutter is better than any third world cutter; it is just that maybe we have more surplus cash to buy the 4000 dollar machine ( and that is a cheap outfit) the books on angles, cleavages, optical properties, gemcad, ray tracing programs, etc. as we are all Blessed to have these at our disposal where many do not and I will not fault their cutting as they may be doing much better than any of us with the tools they have to work with...

To me it is an optical thing; if I love the return of light, symmetry or the stone, hiding inclusions to where they are less noticeable, and of course cost per carat considering the time it took to execute the design, etc...

Now do not get me wrong; it is going to be very hard for a precision cutter to take a 10 dollar piece of natural Amethyst and get 300 a carat for a super time consuming complicated cut; that does not work in my world as I guess I am not the artist some are and my work does not demand those prices.

I will however take that same amount of time to cut a Burmese spinel, Afghanistan neon tourmaline or Imperial garnet, etc. as I do think that gem mineral warrants the time and dedication to the exactness of a competition cut.

I have done the competitions and got the pampas title; but I do not think my cutting is more valuable than others for the same material and cut...

But if I had to choose; I would pay "modistly" more for a precision brilliant cut in the same material than a somewhat windowed, poorly polished roval/askew gem that just had color and a flash if you hold it just the right way... I will and do buy another cutters work; I have many and I like to collect other cutters work as I do appreciate quality craftmanship; all of you that know me; know I am full of a lot but not full of myself

Just one cutters opinion though

Most Respectfully;

Dana

 

[MontageCreations]

Re: Is the premium price for precision stones worth it to yo

Is there a reason why none of the gem cutters work with diamonds? There are few if any fancy coloured diamond cutters with a name that I can find...

Would be interesting to know if anyone does that kind of stuff. Or is the market too small? Or the rough too difficult to obtain?

Years ago, when I had my B&M stores, I had 6 faceting machines, one of them was a Swiss made diamond cutter. They are about 5 times the cost of a precision CS faceter, most of the techniques used are the same but whereas the CS cutter has many different laps to work with, because some stones work better with a certain lap and others don't, the diamond cutter just works on a single lap which has different zones with differing diamond grit (since only diamond will cut or polish diamond).

The next major factor is the rough, The Kimberley Process wasn't invoked back when I was doing that but even then it was rigorous to be vetted to buy rough, and as a single cutter I couldn't ever get a 'buy' in to getting the real thing, I had to buy another cutting house's surplus. Even then the expense was another factor entirely, with most of my rough costing upwards of $1000/ct for 4-5 ct sizes. Then there is the time involved in cutting, I can cut almost any 2 ct CS SRB in 1-2 hours, maybe 4 hours on a stone with 'issues'. A 1 ct SRB diamond usually took about 15 days, and there are always issues. With economies of scale, and my being the lowest part of the food chain, it was impossible for me to be competitive with the large cutting houses, so the diamond cutter was relegated to diamond repairs and re-cuts of chipped stones, and even that market quickly hardened and eventually I sold the machine. So it's nice to have the experience in my resume, and I can certainly empathize with the plight of the diamond cutting industry in today's market, I have absolutely no desire to ever cut diamonds again, ...ever. Oh, did I mention that of all the mind-numbingly boring things to do, diamond cutting is the worst of them.

CS cutting FTW

 

[Arkteia]

Re: Is the premium price for precision stones worth it to yo

I see Jeff White's name now and then listed as one of the expensive lapidaries, so I just wanted to throw out my own (albeit limited) experience with him (not trying to be a fanboy - just trying to provide another perspective). I feel that I paid about as much for my stone from him as I would have from a number of our preferred vendors - and he was willing to do custom for me, which I've found a few of the guys unwilling (or maybe it was just unable) to do.

In my own experience, I've felt that Lisa Elser and Doug at Bespoke charged a much higher premium on stones I bought from them than the stone I bought from Jeff. But I've enjoyed my dealings with both of them as well, so I probably will buy from them in the future anyway (depending on project and stone availabilities).

..

I never worked with Doug but I worked with both Jeff and Lisa.
The question of "overpaying" means either: 1) I paid a premium for a cut that was not worthy of a premium, or,
2) the material was not too good and even precision cut could not "save" it.

From this standpoint, I consider Lisa's prices not expensive because she had access to excellent material. Her prices reflect the quality of the material and she does not charge much for less-than-perfect stones. So I do not consider her expensive. You pay not only for precision cut, you pay for excellent material.

Re. Jeff. I ordered a 3+ct unheated sapphire for him and think the price was not high. I am not always happy with the stone's performance in certain lights but it is typical for many sapphires. In other lights, it is stunning. I think that the price is way lower than at any other place I have seen.

I bought another stone from his website and I think the stone was overpriced. The cut is excellent, but the material is so-so. But it was in the midst of chrysoberyl craze, and I think it sort of drove prices up. Also, Jeff's return policy is very good so it is not risky to buy from him.

I decided that another stone that he offered to cut for me would be too expensive but when I looked at other websites I realized that in fact, it was cheap compared to what other vendors were selling.

So I do not consider him "expensive" in the way other vendors may be. Also, he never touts himself as the best cutter, despite his recent award (and at least one vendor I bought from - once - advertises himself to the extreme), nor does he state his material is the best, he simply offers photos.

Re. "the Thai vendor". I think his prices have gone up immensely, and the last pair of pink spinels I needed for a project I ended up buying from Gemfix. His price was, maybe $ 80.00 less, but considering the risk of returning stones to Thailand, the waiting time, the shipping from Thailand... it amounted to the same.

He has two things that are still in his favor. His return policy is very good, and, most of all, his photos and videos are true to life. If other vendors took the time to invest more into their pictures and had videos on their websites, it would serve to their advantage. I do not imply that Bob Kast should do it for his tourmalines, nor should Barry for his 100 + stones, and Gene's stones are still inexpensive... But for more expensive stones, it would be fair to advertise them as well as our Thai vendor does.

 

[athenaworth]

Re: Is the premium price for precision stones worth it to yo

I can now attest that cut makes all the difference. My jeweler showed me similarly colored sapphires today that looked like fish eyes and they did nothing that made my heart go pitter patter. So I am 100% happy with my sapphire and it’s being set now. Yay! That journey is complete.

 

[faegrace]

Re: Is the premium price for precision stones worth it to yo

Yea! I'm so glad to hear that, Athena.

This thread definitely had me examining my small treasure trove of precision cut gems. I guess I'm a color snob too because I've said "no" to more gems based on color than anything.., except maybe price.

Cannot wait to see your sapphire all set in its new home!

 

[bright ice]

Re: Is the premium price for precision stones worth it to yo

I can now attest that cut makes all the difference. My jeweler showed me similarly colored sapphires today that looked like fish eyes and they did nothing that made my heart go pitter patter. So I am 100% happy with my sapphire and it’s being set now. Yay! That journey is complete.

I am so glad to hear this Athenaworth! I think cutting is as much a factor as color.

 

[natsplat]

Re: Is the premium price for precision stones worth it to yo

My jeweler showed me similarly colored sapphires today that looked like fish eyes...

Hahaha! Yey for you! x

 

[Arkteia]

Re: Is the premium price for precision stones worth it to yo

Very happy for you.

Reminds me of one of my jewelers who was very angry with me and complained to an appraiser who we both knew (on the phone, in my presence), "she is now buying from precision cutters, and she has allied herself with Pricescope...". I think it is hard for traditional jewelers to keep up with the I-net sales hence the anger and offers to source out something much better.

 

[bright ice]

Re: Is the premium price for precision stones worth it to yo

Could someone say who the "Thia" vendor is please or are we not allowed to?

 

[athenaworth]

Re: Is the premium price for precision stones worth it to yo

Could someone say who the "Thia" vendor is please or are we not allowed to?

http://myworld.ebay.com/gemburionline/
http://stores.ebay.com/OdysseyGem
http://myworld.ebay.com/vvs1gem
(we're probably not allowed to say, but here ya go)

 

[bright ice]

Re: Is the premium price for precision stones worth it to yo

Could someone say who the "Thia" vendor is please or are we not allowed to?

http://myworld.ebay.com/gemburionline/
http://stores.ebay.com/OdysseyGem
http://myworld.ebay.com/vvs1gem
(we're probably not allowed to say, but here ya go)

I thought so but just wanted to make sure I was not missing a good source. Have you bought from him Athenaworth?

 

[Arcadian]

Re: Is the premium price for precision stones worth it to yo

I don't think we can't say who Tan is unless something has changed. Lord knows we talk about other ebay sellers with no issue.

-A

 

[athenaworth]

Re: Is the premium price for precision stones worth it to yo

Could someone say who the "Thia" vendor is please or are we not allowed to?

http://myworld.ebay.com/gemburionline/
http://stores.ebay.com/OdysseyGem
http://myworld.ebay.com/vvs1gem
(we're probably not allowed to say, but here ya go)

I thought so but just wanted to make sure I was not missing a good source. Have you bought from him Athenaworth?

I haven't, but I know lots who have. Now that I know I'm a cut snob, I probably won't now.

 

[TristanC]

Re: Is the premium price for precision stones worth it to yo

Years ago, when I had my B&M stores, I had 6 faceting machines, one of them was a Swiss made diamond cutter. They are about 5 times the cost of a precision CS faceter, most of the techniques used are the same but whereas the CS cutter has many different laps to work with, because some stones work better with a certain lap and others don't, the diamond cutter just works on a single lap which has different zones with differing diamond grit (since only diamond will cut or polish diamond).

The next major factor is the rough, The Kimberley Process wasn't invoked back when I was doing that but even then it was rigorous to be vetted to buy rough, and as a single cutter I couldn't ever get a 'buy' in to getting the real thing, I had to buy another cutting house's surplus. Even then the expense was another factor entirely, with most of my rough costing upwards of $1000/ct for 4-5 ct sizes. Then there is the time involved in cutting, I can cut almost any 2 ct CS SRB in 1-2 hours, maybe 4 hours on a stone with 'issues'. A 1 ct SRB diamond usually took about 15 days, and there are always issues. With economies of scale, and my being the lowest part of the food chain, it was impossible for me to be competitive with the large cutting houses, so the diamond cutter was relegated to diamond repairs and re-cuts of chipped stones, and even that market quickly hardened and eventually I sold the machine. So it's nice to have the experience in my resume, and I can certainly empathize with the plight of the diamond cutting industry in today's market, I have absolutely no desire to ever cut diamonds again, ...ever. Oh, did I mention that of all the mind-numbingly boring things to do, diamond cutting is the worst of them.

CS cutting FTW

This is such a shame. I guess economies of scale really drive these things. Personally I'm a huge huge fan of cut, even above everything else for gems. So when I ask these questions, I am applying it to mainly fancy diamonds. For the regular colourless rough, there are already many precision houses, with cuts like hearts on fire, a cut above, solasfera, asscher octavia, eightstar etc etc. I believe they craft a product that really elevates diamonds.

However, with fancy coloured diamonds, I rarely ever see a single one that would score AGS ideal or a GIA excellent excellent for symmetry and polish, and with gorgeous stats for a round. I know some of the economic drivers for this kind of thinking, but being such an expensive raw material, and such a rare gemstone, I would have thought all FCDs would deserve to be in the skilled hands of people with similar abilities to the master cutters in this thread.

Would diamond houses be able to recut/repolish a fancy?

 

[MontageCreations]

Re: Is the premium price for precision stones worth it to yo

This is such a shame. I guess economies of scale really drive these things. Personally I'm a huge huge fan of cut, even above everything else for gems. So when I ask these questions, I am applying it to mainly fancy diamonds. For the regular colourless rough, there are already many precision houses, with cuts like hearts on fire, a cut above, solasfera, asscher octavia, eightstar etc etc. I believe they craft a product that really elevates diamonds.

However, with fancy coloured diamonds, I rarely ever see a single one that would score AGS ideal or a GIA excellent excellent for symmetry and polish, and with gorgeous stats for a round. I know some of the economic drivers for this kind of thinking, but being such an expensive raw material, and such a rare gemstone, I would have thought all FCDs would deserve to be in the skilled hands of people with similar abilities to the master cutters in this thread.

Would diamond houses be able to recut/repolish a fancy?

Diamond cutting and FCD's in particular are an entirely different world. There are major economic considerations, in their entire processing, that make them distinctly different from the rest of the trade.

The diamond houses cut FCD's all the time, so yes they can recut, but you are throwing your money away. Cutting is the only variable of the 4C's that is directly influenced or altered by man, (with the exception of HPHT, Lasers, Radiation, etc), the color and the clarity are inherent in the stone and of fixed value. By manipulating a stones cut you will directly influence the trade value of that stone. So if you buy a natural vivid FCD for X amount of money, all other factors being equal, and pay a cutting house to recut it to your satisfaction, it will lose value not gain value. And because the values are usually quite high on even small FCD's most cutting houses will probably balk at the request for fear of legal repercussions and diminishing their reputation.

The cost of natural FCD rough is far above the norm, and to ask a cutting house to risk anything other than maximum return on their investment would not meet with warm regards. And there are other considerations as well, I have held in my hand one of the largest and most valuable non-royal diamonds in the world, it's a 112 ct. flat emerald cut that is so badly windowed it makes for a better lens than jewelry, but it's value would still be diminished in recutting it.

I can appreciate what you mean, when you say you want it to be well cut, but unless you can afford the larger FCD's have a huge amount of cash to play with, you aren't likely to find what you're looking for, because in the FCD world cutting is secondary to ALL of the other C's

 

[chrono]

Re: Is the premium price for precision stones worth it to yo

It could well be that your jeweller showed you a horribly cut "native" sapphire of like colour. Have you seen a well cut "native" stone and compared that to a precision cut stone?

 

[iLander]

Re: Is the premium price for precision stones worth it to yo

For me, this is not a question because the answer is "yes".

Over in the diamond sections of this forum, they are going on endlessly about the cut; the hearts and arrows and all that. They certainly pay a premium for cut over there.

In colored stones, I think a great cut is extremely important, sometimes more important than in a diamond. In a diamond, the refractive index and dispersion are so high, that even an average cut still produces a fairly sparkly diamond. Not great, but sparkly. In some colored stones, you need a great cut to get anything out of them. A poorly cut aquamarine is just boring, while a fabulous cut can make it a whole different animal.

I'm not a quantity buyer. I have about 7-8 stones, and I want them to be the best they can be. I only have so many fingers!

I bought a Richard Homer citrine despite the stone itself, I purchased it because of the cut and no other reason. I love it and wear it a lot.

If you go to a gem show, you'll see tons of mediocre stones there. Bowls full of cut amethysts, topaz, citrines, etc. Cases full of tourmaline, sapphires, spinels, aquamarines, etc. It makes you pretty jaded to stones. For me, a stone has to be extraordinary, and a great cut is part of what makes it so.