Is This A Chip?

[snaphappy]

In love with the ring!! Don’t see any inclusions, but I’m a novice. My wife thinks the black speck is an inclusion, but I think it’s a chip. Neither of us can see it with the naked eye. But given that I spent $7600 on this ring I’m scared a chip will detract not only from value, but my daughter’s ability to sell the ring, if she wants to, after I pass.

Overall, I love it. But if it’s chipped I can be patient and keep searching for something else.

I have lots of questions. But I’ll wait to pester you guys until you guys tell me if it’s chipped or not haha!! Thank you! I would be lost without you guys and Neil literally picked this ring, even though I said no yellow gold, and even though I was scared of TRR and Neil was right. All of you were right. This is exactly what I was dreaming of!! But is it chipped??

Good video of the chip, not sure about audio, so you might want to mute:

Warning, loud dogs barking at some point. My neighbor is not kind to his dogs And at the end when my wife shows her ring we get a UPS delivery and my dogs get really excited! Ha!

 

[lulu_ma]

Looks like a black inclusion. When you run your fingernail over the surface, does it feel like chip?

Also, I think you need a loupe! Here's a cheap one...

Amazon.com

 

[snaphappy]

Looks like a black inclusion. When you run your fingernail over the surface, does it feel like chip?

Also, I think you need a loupe! Here's a cheap one...

Amazon.com

If that's consensus I'm keeping it forever!!

 

[snaphappy]

New video after I cleaned my wife's diamond!! So neat!

 

[LightBright]

I agree with LuluMA that I think also the black speck is an inclusion; it looks like it’s on the interior of the stone. A loupe will allow you to look at it more magnified. Maybe your jeweler can look at it, too.

Your rings are both really awesome, special unique and intact antique settings and diamonds I think!

Your’s is what I’d consider a Transitional also. Maybe someone else can weigh in on cut.

Your wife’s stone is really unique because it has a high crown and small table like a OEC but it’s also got splintery facets like a modern brilliant. I’ve never seen a diamond cut like her’s before and her setting is mind blowing from the side. Your setting is also so wonderful, it’s Art Deco, and i would love to know where it was made. Your diamond has blocky facets which throw big blocks of rainbow fire.

Spectacular finds, yay for you both!!

 

[snaphappy]

Just a few questions.

Sizing: will a high end jewelry store size it front of me? Or while I wait? Do I need to bring my loupe and make sure they didn’t swap my diamond? Or is that silly?

Appraisal: I was thinking of using the EGL because I liked the report that came with my wife’s ring. Anyone else you recommend?

Authenticity: there’s zero chance this is a lab created stone place in an antique setting?

Thanks!!

 

[LightBright]

Just a few questions.

Sizing: will a high end jewelry store size it front of me? Or while I wait? Do I need to bring my loupe and make sure they didn’t swap my diamond? Or is that silly?

Appraisal: I was thinking of using the EGL because I liked the report that came with my wife’s ring. Anyone else you recommend?

Authenticity: there’s zero chance this is a lab created stone place in an antique setting?

Thanks!!

I think an excellent jeweler might do it while you wait, but maybe not let you watch. It’s got to be a laser weld, which involves eye protection. I don’t know if they remove the diamond or not.

But - If you pick a qualified jeweler, they’d likely need to do it on their own schedule and I wouldn’t rush them. You could hand deliver and pick up to avoid shipping though.

What do you need the appraisal for (not a rhetorical question)? EGL inflates their reports, especially color. That might not be bad if you want to insure it. GIA is the lab that most people use for accuracy, especially for antique diamonds. I think that GIA requires unmounting, so imo, I wouldn’t do it. I think lab reports are not necessary, unless you want to sell your diamond. Others should weigh in, this is my opinion.

I’m guessing that this is an authentic antique diamond in its original setting. You can look at how the diamond is set into the setting. Does it look like the prongs were ever tampered with? Does the diamond fit perfectly into the setting? It’s not easy to replace a diamond in a setting that was made for it.

A jeweler would need to be able to find a cheaper diamond with perfect dimensions and exact inclusion to replace your’s in the setting. They’d have to be able to set the new diamond perfectly. And they’d have to be able to sell your original diamond easily. Your diamond is a lower color with a tiny inclusion (not bad but not as easy to sell). I’m pretty sure the labor involved and the risk of being caught is not worth it to a good jeweler (who likely deals with diamonds worth far more every day).

The cut of this diamond is not typical of the OECs being cut from lab diamonds. To me, the diamond looks like a real antique, and it looks original to the setting.

 

[K9]

As someone that has had stones swapped/lost/damaged/etc when having my jewelry repaired - do yourself a favor and get yourself an independent appraisal on the piece before you have it serviced/sized. Especially if you do not have an existing relationship with a bench. An independent appraisal will note the unique characteristics of the stone and any damage they observe. If you have an appraisal, you have something to compare to when the ring is returned to you after sizing.

ETA: this will also address your concerns re: chip vs inclusion / lab vs mined to ease any doubts.

I'm not talking EGL or GIA on the stone alone - that isn't necessary unless you specifically desire a cert.

Just my 2 cents as I have been following your journey buying this piece.

 

[athenaworth]

In my opinion, one of the great things about inclusions in diamonds is that they can be a type of fingerprint to your stone. That carbon will always help you know that your stone is yours even after sizing.

 

[snaphappy]

As someone that has had stones swapped/lost/damaged/etc when having my jewelry repaired - do yourself a favor and get yourself an independent appraisal on the piece before you have it serviced/sized. Especially if you do not have an existing relationship with a bench. An independent appraisal will note the unique characteristics of the stone and any damage they observe. If you have an appraisal, you have something to compare to when the ring is returned to you after sizing.

ETA: this will also address your concerns re: chip vs inclusion / lab vs mined to ease any doubts.

I'm not talking EGL or GIA on the stone alone - that isn't necessary unless you specifically desire a cert.

Just my 2 cents as I have been following your journey buying this piece.

This is the kind of stuff I need to hear. So send off somewhere, or find someone local? I do not live in a safe area and I’m more frightened of local jewelers than sending it off. Not sure what to do

 

[snaphappy]

In my opinion, one of the great things about inclusions in diamonds is that they can be a type of fingerprint to your stone. That carbon will always help you know that your stone is yours even after sizing.

Great point!! Ty!! I can’t even imagine what I’d do if I inspected it and realized it was a diamond swap

 

[Dreamer_D]

Your diamond is an old European cut, as you suspected. It’s a later old European cut. I would guess cut in the earliest decades of the 1900s. Your wife’s stone is a later make, likely from the late 20s or early 1930s. They have the same number of facets ( I noticed you said in one of your videos that hers was sparkly because it had more facets that’s not the case). The facets just have a different shape. In particular, your wife’s stone has very long, lower girdle facets. That creates a more splintery appearance. Your diamond has shorter lower girdle facets. These are the big facets on the pavilion of the stone that create arrows in a modern round brilliant.

I think that black mark is an inclusion. It doesn’t look like a chip, which would typically have a white sort of frosted appearance on the wound. It also seems to be internal to the diamond to me.

I don’t personally worry about jewelers switching out my diamonds. It’s a pretty high risk activity for them and you cannot replicate the diamond that you have. That inclusion is very unique as is the cut. i’ve never seen a lab diamond that colour or with that cut. It’s impossible to replicate. I have had a jeweler damage a gemstone while it was being set though, so insuring before any work is done is a good idea.

Suspect the colour is in the MN range. I do notice when you turn the ring upside down that the metal on the inner portion of the bezel has darkened. This is quite common in antique rings. I think it’s oxidization combined with gunk. The trouble is that the darkness reflects in the stone (old cuts are leaky and show colors underneath them, unlike modern rounds). If you clean that properly and get some of the darkness out, I think the diamond will lighten up. A skilled jewler can do this for you. At home you can clean your ring by soaking it in a concoction of six tbs hot boiling water and one tbs household ammonia. Wear gloves. It won’t damage your ring as it’s made of fine metals and diamond but it smells horrific and can hurt your skin. Let it soak for about five minutes or so, then brush it with a baby toothbrush. That will probably help lighten it up.

I think an EGL report would be interesting and useful for insurance.

 

[K9]

This is the kind of stuff I need to hear. So send off somewhere, or find someone local? I do not live in a safe area and I’m more frightened of local jewelers than sending it off. Not sure what to do

I don't know where you live but there are both Independent Appraisers and Retail Appraisers. I found my guy through NAJA and use him because he is not affiliated with any retail jeweler. https://najaappraisers.com/appraisers/

If you want it certed with GIA or EGL, then I wouldn't bother with an appraisal as it's an unnecessary expense. Depends on what you wish to achieve with your paperwork.

If you wanna skip that altogether and send it off - there are many highly reputable jewelers here that PSers have used that you can send it off to for sizing/certing/etc and you don't need to worry about any swaps. That happened to me locally and so I send a lot of my stuff away for that very reason.

David Klass and Ivy & Rose have both done really great repairs for me recently.

 

[snaphappy]

Your diamond is an old European cut, as you suspected. It’s a later old European cut. I would guess cut in the earliest decades of the 1900s. Your wife’s stone is a later make, likely from the late 20s or early 1930s. They have the same number of facets ( I noticed you said in one of your videos that hers was sparkly because it had more facets that’s not the case). The facets just have a different shape. In particular, your wife’s stone has very long, lower girdle facets. That creates a more splintery appearance. Your diamond has shorter lower girdle facets. These are the big facets on the pavilion of the stone that create arrows in a modern round brilliant.

I think that black mark is an inclusion. It doesn’t look like a chip, which would typically have a white sort of frosted appearance on the wound. It also seems to be internal to the diamond to me.

I don’t personally worry about jewelers switching out my diamonds. It’s a pretty high risk activity for them and you cannot replicate the diamond that you have. That inclusion is very unique as is the cut. i’ve never seen a lab diamond that colour or with that cut. It’s impossible to replicate. I have had a jeweler damage a gemstone while it was being set though, so insuring before any work is done is a good idea.

Suspect the colour is in the MN range. I do notice when you turn the ring upside down that the metal on the inner portion of the bezel has darkened. This is quite common in antique rings. I think it’s oxidization combined with gunk. The trouble is that the darkness reflects in the stone (old cuts are leaky and show colors underneath them, unlike modern rounds). If you clean that properly and get some of the darkness out, I think the diamond will lighten up. A skilled jewler can do this for you. At home you can clean your ring by soaking it in a concoction of six tbs hot boiling water and one tbs household ammonia. Wear gloves. It won’t damage your ring as it’s made of fine metals and diamond but it smells horrific and can hurt your skin. Let it soak for about five minutes or so, then brush it with a baby toothbrush. That will probably help lighten it up.

I think an EGL report would be interesting and useful for insurance.

Thank you so much! Insure it first. Soak in ammonia. EGL. Got it. Is there an EGL type company that would size it too?

Edit: Is it in si1? At M or N, was $7600 a fair price?

 

[LightBright]

More thoughts, if you live in a crime filled area, I’d worry about theft and shipping more than a reputable jeweler stealing the stone.

However I’ve had a reputable jeweler chip my stone.

I’d insure both rings asap. I wonder if you can get an appraisal in person so you don’t have to ship. I’ve also heard of appraisers like Neil Beatty or Old Miner appraise then send for you to a reputable jeweler. I don’t know how insurance works with that scenario.

Once insured you could ship to David Klass or drive it to Ivy and Rose for sizing.

Athenaworth is right, the inclusion identifies the stone and if you have an appraiser put it down in writing it becomes a document or proof for your insurance.

In terms of value I have no idea. But a 2 plus carat O-P antique diamond in a 14k yellow gold setting that is 4 grams plus, seems like $7600 is a good deal to me. I think it’s not an I1, it’s imo a nice SI2 or higher.

EGL is nice to have but I’m thinking insurance will need an appraisal, someone else can answer. To me it’s not worth the risk of sending to EGL if you already are appraising it, but an appraiser OR jeweler like the ones above can send it to EGL for you.

Ps I’d try dawn or other dish soap and hot water and an ultra soft toothbrush in a bowl not over a drain before using ammonia (eg clean gently first) due to antique yellow gold and patina might be reactive to ammonia. Not sure though I might be wrong.

 

[snaphappy]

My wife’s came with an EGL cert and Jeweler’s Mutual was happy with their cert. EGL provides an appraisal with their certs. I don’t know of anyone else who will cert and appraise antique rings?

I did reach out to Ivy & Rose to see if they can size, appraise, and cert. Let’s see what they say.

Off topic a little. My wife’s is a J according to EGL. Might be true. Might be K or L since EGL isn’t exactly accurate. Could even be worse I guess

To our novice eyes, our diamonds are very similar color. So just in my opinion, if my wife’s is JKL range then I bet mine is too. But I’ve been wrong so many times and you guys always seem to be right!

Mostly, this had just been really fun and I love hearing from you guys!

 

[LightBright]

My wife’s came with an EGL cert and Jeweler’s Mutual was happy with their cert. EGL provides an appraisal with their certs. I don’t know of anyone else who will cert and appraise antique rings?

I did reach out to Ivy & Rose to see if they can size, appraise, and cert. Let’s see what they say.

Off topic a little. My wife’s is a J according to EGL. Might be true. Might be K or L since EGL isn’t exactly accurate. Could even be worse I guess

To our novice eyes, our diamonds are very similar color. So just in my opinion, if my wife’s is JKL range then I bet mine is too. But I’ve been wrong so many times and you guys always seem to be right!

Mostly, this had just been really fun and I love hearing from you guys!

I think EGL is known for inflating color (there’s many threads on PS on this subject but sometimes they are same as GIA and could have recently changed, you never know). Very cool you can get an appraisal from EGL at the same time. I think that’s a good plan.

What’s interesting is you see a similar body color in the two diamonds. Maybe the gold enclosure in a darker metal is even distorting color of the stone. If you do go to Ivy and Rose I wonder if they have a way to lighten just inside the diamond enclosure (maybe with rhodium I have no idea). Might be a bad idea hope others can discuss w you.

One thing to think about is whether you want to NOT POLISH (or polish) your setting when you size it. To me the setting looks patinated from age, which is difficult to restore if that’s polished off.

So I’d discuss the limits of what they would do so you aren’t surprised by a super polished/shiny gold ring when you pick it up. Or if you want that, do it. Most antique setting dealers will not polish before selling, for the reason that it can change what the ring looks like. But I’ve had settings automatically polished after sizing so do discuss with them beforehand.

 

[Dreamer_D]

I agree with LightBright on all points above. The point about ammonia and patina is a good one and something I didn't think of. In my experience the darkening of metal that seems to happen inside the baskets of antique stones won't come off with just soap. I assume it is a patina of sorts. I have noticed it in all of my antique/old rings. Probably something about moisture from the hand reacting withe metals over a 100 years lol.

EGL provides price evaluations. All appraisals are grossly inflated compared to what you pay online. Honestly, any local well-respected jeweler can offer appraisals that are sufficient for insurance. Sounds like you are near New York. There are literally millions of options there! Ivy and Rose sounds like a good place to start. But I would not ship it anywhere. Not necessary and adds stress.

As to value I think its a good price for carat and a nice setting for a price bought via a second-hand website. Folks on here wouldn't have recommended it otherwise. Can't say much more given that we don't exactly what it is lol. I'd be happy to pay that price for the look and overall quality. If you are really keen to know if you got a deal and how much of a deal you would need to send your diamond to GIA for a lab report, which I don't recommend because there is always a risk unsetting the stone.

I'd guess SI2 at worst, maybe SI1. Can't judge color accurately but it looks more tinted than KL to my eyes. I own a number of GIA graded KL old cuts and they look more colorless than either of your stones look in the various videos you have posted. But who knows! Can't judge color by pictures and video anyway as ambient lighting has such a huge effect. I wish I could say an appraisal will help with this but in my experience, they are usually way off lol.

 

[snaphappy]

Here’s some interesting pics inside. I think I got it clean. I think those are solder marks?

Guys I get why gia takes it out of the setting. I’m not gonna take it out. So don’t worry. But in a yellow gold setting, the whole diamond flashes gold at me while I’m examining it. It could be an H-I and we’d never know in this setting!! Not that it is, but yeah now I get why the victorians wanted yellow gold and I get why the edwardians did not.



Oh and look at the bezel here, in sunlight, is it white gold? Usually it looks yellow but not in this light. Is bezel the right word? Ha!

 

[LightBright]

Here’s some interesting pics inside. I think I got it clean. I think those are solder marks?

Guys I get why gia takes it out of the setting. I’m not gonna take it out. So don’t worry. But in a yellow gold setting, the whole diamond flashes gold at me while I’m examining it. It could be an H-I and we’d never know in this setting!! Not that it is, but yeah now I get why the victorians wanted yellow gold and I get why the edwardians did not.



Oh and look at the bezel here, in sunlight, is it white gold? Usually it looks yellow but not in this light. Is bezel the right word? Ha!

I’m guessing the bezel is platinum. A jeweler or pawn shop with an XRF could tell you. So the diamond is in a white frame - this was typically done maybe to not tint it further? (I have no idea what that frame is called). I’m noticing even in places that used white gold for settings (like France) they put the diamond in matching but platinum prongs. I’m hoping people will tell us why. Maybe because platinum is whiter than white gold?

This is a great ring! How do you like it clean? Is it lively? More photos and videos would be awesome in various light. Try it out in filtered light under a tree or next to shutters.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Yes that looks very clean.

Yellow gold definitely adds tint, no question about that. The actual color of this diamond shall remain a mystery. But even if it is an OP SI2 the price is likely fair. So that is why I would not be too concerned about it other than just natural curiosity.

The frame could be platinum, that’s most likely.

 

[snaphappy]

As requested, in different locations and different light. These videos always look much better on my phone and not as good on youtube, but I tried.

I'm telling myself the setting doesn't do this diamond justice. I like the setting so so much!! I think it's really neat. But the diamond is a little darker and has less fire than I want. I'm also telling myself, that essentially, there's no way to get my wife's diamond in a man's ring. Because that's what I want! Her diamond gave me diamond fever. But a man's setting is just bulkier, even in white gold, and the bulkiness makes the diamond look darker. A man's setting is never going to let as much light in as open window filigree.

I'm a novice, but here's what I'm seeing - the chunky facets on my diamond shoot white light into my eyes - I guess that's brilliance? The flashes are bright! Like whoa! But they're not rainbow flashes aka fire. And I really got addicted to fire because of my wife's ring.

 

[Dreamer_D]

As requested, in different locations and different light. These videos always look much better on my phone and not as good on youtube, but I tried.

I'm telling myself the setting doesn't do this diamond justice. I like the setting so so much!! I think it's really neat. But the diamond is a little darker and has less fire than I want. I'm also telling myself, that essentially, there's no way to get my wife's diamond in a man's ring. Because that's what I want! Her diamond gave me diamond fever. But a man's setting is just bulkier, even in white gold, and the bulkiness makes the diamond look darker. A man's setting is never going to let as much light in as open window filigree.

I'm a novice, but here's what I'm seeing - the chunky facets on my diamond shoot white light into my eyes - I guess that's brilliance? The flashes are bright! Like whoa! But they're not rainbow flashes aka fire. And I really got addicted to fire because of my wife's ring.

Maybe you don’t want an antique diamond. Your wife’s diamond faceting is much closer to a modern round brilliant.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Go outside and look at it under a tree in dappled shade.

 

[snaphappy]

Maybe you don’t want an antique diamond. Your wife’s diamond faceting is much closer to a modern round brilliant.

Ok I get it now. It's not really my setting, it's the OEC. We just played with our rings next to candles and in all kinds of different lighting. Hers has more skinny flashes, mine has fewer, but thicker flashes. Mine can actually hurt my eyes if it's flashing and I stare at it too long ha! But ok I finally get it. And AI told me OEC are universally darker than RBC but the payoff is the chunky flashes. I was slow to figure this out but I get it now. It is kind of interesting that this OEC is a relic of history too! I'm coming around to it.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Ok I get it now. It's not really my setting, it's the OEC. We just played with our rings next to candles and in all kinds of different lighting. Hers has more skinny flashes, mine has fewer, but thicker flashes. Mine can actually hurt my eyes if it's flashing and I stare at it too long ha! But ok I finally get it. And AI told me OEC are universally darker than RBC but the payoff is the chunky flashes. I was slow to figure this out but I get it now. It is kind of interesting that this OEC is a relic of history too! I'm coming around to it.

They are different cuts and handle light differently. Don’t believe the AI, it is wrong.

Look at your OEC in shade and diffuse light or in dim light coming from the side. You will see lots of dispersion.

 

[Mrsz1ppy]

I’m guessing the bezel is platinum. A jeweler or pawn shop with an XRF could tell you. So the diamond is in a white frame - this was typically done maybe to not tint it further? (I have no idea what that frame is called). I’m noticing even in places that used white gold for settings (like France) they put the diamond in matching but platinum prongs. I’m hoping people will tell us why. Maybe because platinum is whiter than white gold?

This is a great ring! How do you like it clean? Is it lively? More photos and videos would be awesome in various light. Try it out in filtered light under a tree or next to shutters.

Platinum is stronger than gold. That is why it is preferred for prongs.

 

[LightBright]

Ok I get it now. It's not really my setting, it's the OEC. We just played with our rings next to candles and in all kinds of different lighting. Hers has more skinny flashes, mine has fewer, but thicker flashes. Mine can actually hurt my eyes if it's flashing and I stare at it too long ha! But ok I finally get it. And AI told me OEC are universally darker than RBC but the payoff is the chunky flashes. I was slow to figure this out but I get it now. It is kind of interesting that this OEC is a relic of history too! I'm coming around to it.

Yes the payoff is the chunky flashes. To me, your diamond also has really nice fire. It’s just different. I’ve compared different old cuts in different light and if I compare, I see that each unique old cut has an ideal light situation. To me, the fire of your stone is in larger flashes and that’s great! The blinding white flashes? That’s typical of flatter crowned cuts (they look whiter because they reflect white light more I don’t know why but there are threads on this). Or maybe your diamond is some sort of Jedi stone with electrical powers. Haha.

 

[Ibrakeforpossums]

Where are you? I know a woman at Jewelers Workshop in Madison, WI who does killer work with old settings. It's her specialty.

 

[snaphappy]

Where are you? I know a woman at Jewelers Workshop in Madison, WI who does killer work with old settings. It's her specialty.

I’m in the deep south. I’d probably be open to sending it to your jeweler. Might be able to find someone in New Orleans or Atlanta. I have Mednikov here. Spelling. They thoroughly document the diamond, then send it off for resizing, but they said it would take two weeks.

Ivy & Rose said they wouldn’t work with me because I didn’t buy from them. They said they won’t repair or resize, nothing.

Here’s what my plan is, maybe

1) Add to my Jeweler’s Mutual Policy probably for $15k
2) Send to EGL or similar to get a “ballpark” assessment of the diamond and an appraisal. EGL does both. (Assuming I don’t need to fear EGL stealing my diamond.)
3) Get it resized somewhere

A lab that could cert, size, appraise would be ideal.