Is this a nice diamond? 60% table

[loverock]

Karl,

My current ring is a D 1.26 ct, EX sym, EX polish, no cutting grade.

The 2 ct doesn''t seems to be as full of light as my current one, but then i think it is because it is a "F", and also because it is bigger, it will look a little different...

Loverock

 

[Rockdiamond]

Loverock- I large part of how I buy diamonds is based on the visual aspects.
The last statement you just made concerns me as you seem to feel that the larger diamond pales by comparison to one you already own.

That makes me say that maybe more shopping is in order.....

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 7/31/2009 3:29:41 PM
Author: loverock
Lorelei

Here is the full information of this diamond:

2ct
F
VS1
8.07-8.11x4.93mm
table 60%
depth 60.9%
pavilion angle 40.8
crown angle 35.5
crown height 14.5%
pavilion depth 43%
girdle medium to slightly thick (3.6%)
Culet none

fluorescence none
VG polish
EX symmetry
EX cut

what's star and lower girdle facet percentages? I have a 45% on the copy and lower portion 80% - not sure if that's it

Thanks!

Can you just check that figure please? Thanks for the info!

This page explains about star and LGF's

http://www.goodoldgold.com/Articles/MinorFacets/

 

[loverock]

David,

I read a thread you created back in May''09: Is 60/60 a bad proportion for a round diamond- can we trust a GIA EX cut grade? - I didn''t finish the whole thread yet

do we have a short answer for this? Yes? No?

Thanks.

loverock

 

[risingsun]

I am a consumer, like yourself. I can tell you the steps that I followed when I bought my last diamond. This diamond was an upgrade for my engagement ring. The stone in the ring was a beautiful branded diamond from a respected online vendor. I traded it in on larger branded stone from a B&M jeweler whom I have done business with for years. I asked him to provide me the the following information: [in addition to clarity, color, and carat size] I requested the table%, depth%, crown angle, pavillion angle, girdle width, star length, crown height, and lower girdle %. I ran the first four numbers through the HCA, which I used a rejection tool. The diamond was less than 2, so I asked for the diamond to be brought in. When I saw the diamond, it looked stunning under the jewelry store lighting. My jeweler and I took outside, in his office, and into as many different lighting environments as possible. We looked at it under the hearts and arrows viewer. I had my IS with me. The stone performed as I had hoped. We put it under the microscope to identify the inclusions. We looked at the color from the side, against a piece of white paper. I went out to lunch and then came back and viewed the diamond as a whole, rather in its components. My eyes were able to make a distinction between brilliance, dispersion and sparkle, the longer I viewed the stone. This may seem like a lot, but this was necessary to me in making such an important and expensive purchase. I bought this diamond and have had no regrets. When I bought my first stone online, the information was already on the vendor's site. I did have it sent to an appraiser before accepting the stone and used the return period for my own anaylsis of the diamond. I hope this may be of some use to you

ETA: I also posted my specs on line and spoke with Lorelei and Miss Ellen!!

 

[loverock]

Date: 7/31/2009 4:11:56 PM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 7/31/2009 3:29:41 PM

Author: loverock

Lorelei


Here is the full information of this diamond:


2ct

F

VS1

8.07-8.11x4.93mm

table 60%

depth 60.9%

pavilion angle 40.8

crown angle 35.5

crown height 14.5%

pavilion depth 43%

girdle medium to slightly thick (3.6%)

Culet none


fluorescence none

VG polish

EX symmetry

EX cut


what''s star and lower girdle facet percentages? I have a 45% on the copy and lower portion 80% - not sure if that''s it


Thanks!

Can you just check that figure please? Thanks for the info!

Lorelei, this 45% is shown on the copy of the GIA report on the left next to the table %, seems to be the measurement of the little slop from the table.

 

[loverock]

Date: 7/31/2009 4:15:06 PM
Author: risingsun
I am a consumer, like yourself. I can tell you the steps that I followed when I bought my last diamond. This diamond was an upgrade for my engagement ring. The stone in the ring was a beautiful branded diamond from a respected online vendor. I traded it in on larger branded stone from a B&M jeweler whom I have done business with for years. I asked him to provide me the the following information: [in addition to clarity, color, and carat size] I requested the table%, depth%, crown angle, pavillion angle, girdle width, star length, crown height, and lower girdle %. I ran the first four numbers through the HCA, which I used a rejection tool. The diamond was less than 2, so I asked for the diamond to be brought in. When I saw the diamond, it looked stunning under the jewelry store lighting. My jeweler and I took outside, in his office, and into as many different lighting environments as possible. We looked at it under the hearts and arrows viewer. I had my IS with me. The stone performed as I had hoped. We put it under the microscope to identify the inclusions. We looked at the color from the side, against a piece of white paper. I went out to lunch and then came back and viewed the diamond as a whole, rather in its components. My eyes were able to make a distinction between brilliance, dispersion and sparkle, the longer I viewed the stone. This may seem like a lot, but this was necessary to me in making such an important and expensive purchase. I bought this diamond and have had no regrets. When I bought my first stone online, the information was already on the vendor''s site. I did have it sent to an appraiser before accepting the stone and used the return period for my own anaylsis of the diamond. I hope this may be of some use to you

how do you run the numbers under HCA? do you have to go to the jeweler to do so? or this is something you could do on the web?

Thanks.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 7/31/2009 4:22:05 PM
Author: loverock

Date: 7/31/2009 4:15:06 PM
Author: risingsun
I am a consumer, like yourself. I can tell you the steps that I followed when I bought my last diamond. This diamond was an upgrade for my engagement ring. The stone in the ring was a beautiful branded diamond from a respected online vendor. I traded it in on larger branded stone from a B&M jeweler whom I have done business with for years. I asked him to provide me the the following information: [in addition to clarity, color, and carat size] I requested the table%, depth%, crown angle, pavillion angle, girdle width, star length, crown height, and lower girdle %. I ran the first four numbers through the HCA, which I used a rejection tool. The diamond was less than 2, so I asked for the diamond to be brought in. When I saw the diamond, it looked stunning under the jewelry store lighting. My jeweler and I took outside, in his office, and into as many different lighting environments as possible. We looked at it under the hearts and arrows viewer. I had my IS with me. The stone performed as I had hoped. We put it under the microscope to identify the inclusions. We looked at the color from the side, against a piece of white paper. I went out to lunch and then came back and viewed the diamond as a whole, rather in its components. My eyes were able to make a distinction between brilliance, dispersion and sparkle, the longer I viewed the stone. This may seem like a lot, but this was necessary to me in making such an important and expensive purchase. I bought this diamond and have had no regrets. When I bought my first stone online, the information was already on the vendor's site. I did have it sent to an appraiser before accepting the stone and used the return period for my own anaylsis of the diamond. I hope this may be of some use to you

how do you run the numbers under HCA? do you have to go to the jeweler to do so? or this is something you could do on the web?

Thanks.

You can do it right here!

http://www.pricescope.com/cutadviser.asp

Marian gave you a brilliant writeup on how to evaluate a diamond, if you follow her method that should really help you.

 

[glitterata]

Date: 7/31/2009 3:50:26 PM
Author: loverock
Karl,


My current ring is a D 1.26 ct, EX sym, EX polish, no cutting grade.


The 2 ct doesn''t seems to be as full of light as my current one, but then i think it is because it is a ''F'', and also because it is bigger, it will look a little different...


Loverock

It is very unlikely that the difference you''re seeing has anything to do with the color. D and F color should look the same from the top, and most people wouldn''t be able to detect the difference even from the side. Even if you can detect the color difference, F color would not make the stone look less "full of light." What would make that difference would be the cut.

It sounds as if you don''t like the cut of the new stone as much as the old one (it''s less "full of light"), so I would go on looking until you find one you love.

 

[risingsun]

Date: 7/31/2009 4:22:05 PM
Author: loverock

Date: 7/31/2009 4:15:06 PM
Author: risingsun
I am a consumer, like yourself. I can tell you the steps that I followed when I bought my last diamond. This diamond was an upgrade for my engagement ring. The stone in the ring was a beautiful branded diamond from a respected online vendor. I traded it in on larger branded stone from a B&M jeweler whom I have done business with for years. I asked him to provide me the the following information: [in addition to clarity, color, and carat size] I requested the table%, depth%, crown angle, pavillion angle, girdle width, star length, crown height, and lower girdle %. I ran the first four numbers through the HCA, which I used a rejection tool. The diamond was less than 2, so I asked for the diamond to be brought in. When I saw the diamond, it looked stunning under the jewelry store lighting. My jeweler and I took outside, in his office, and into as many different lighting environments as possible. We looked at it under the hearts and arrows viewer. I had my IS with me. The stone performed as I had hoped. We put it under the microscope to identify the inclusions. We looked at the color from the side, against a piece of white paper. I went out to lunch and then came back and viewed the diamond as a whole, rather in its components. My eyes were able to make a distinction between brilliance, dispersion and sparkle, the longer I viewed the stone. This may seem like a lot, but this was necessary to me in making such an important and expensive purchase. I bought this diamond and have had no regrets. When I bought my first stone online, the information was already on the vendor''s site. I did have it sent to an appraiser before accepting the stone and used the return period for my own anaylsis of the diamond. I hope this may be of some use to you

how do you run the numbers under HCA? do you have to go to the jeweler to do so? or this is something you could do on the web?

Thanks.

You go to the top of the page and find "Tools." Click on tools and you will see "cut adviser." Click on this and the HCA will come up on your page. Enter the numbers for depth%, table%, crown angle, and pavillion angle. Click and you will get results. These results are for rejection purposes only. If the number is less than 2, that diamond is worth consideration. This cut adviser is for round brilliant diamonds only. It was developed by Garry Holloway, who posts on this forum. I think if a diamond is in the low "twos," that may also be acceptable. If you have any questions, give a shout out to Strm or Garry.

 

[risingsun]

Date: 7/31/2009 4:24:45 PM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 7/31/2009 4:22:05 PM
Author: loverock

Date: 7/31/2009 4:15:06 PM
Author: risingsun
I am a consumer, like yourself. I can tell you the steps that I followed when I bought my last diamond. This diamond was an upgrade for my engagement ring. The stone in the ring was a beautiful branded diamond from a respected online vendor. I traded it in on larger branded stone from a B&M jeweler whom I have done business with for years. I asked him to provide me the the following information: [in addition to clarity, color, and carat size] I requested the table%, depth%, crown angle, pavillion angle, girdle width, star length, crown height, and lower girdle %. I ran the first four numbers through the HCA, which I used a rejection tool. The diamond was less than 2, so I asked for the diamond to be brought in. When I saw the diamond, it looked stunning under the jewelry store lighting. My jeweler and I took outside, in his office, and into as many different lighting environments as possible. We looked at it under the hearts and arrows viewer. I had my IS with me. The stone performed as I had hoped. We put it under the microscope to identify the inclusions. We looked at the color from the side, against a piece of white paper. I went out to lunch and then came back and viewed the diamond as a whole, rather in its components. My eyes were able to make a distinction between brilliance, dispersion and sparkle, the longer I viewed the stone. This may seem like a lot, but this was necessary to me in making such an important and expensive purchase. I bought this diamond and have had no regrets. When I bought my first stone online, the information was already on the vendor''s site. I did have it sent to an appraiser before accepting the stone and used the return period for my own anaylsis of the diamond. I hope this may be of some use to you

how do you run the numbers under HCA? do you have to go to the jeweler to do so? or this is something you could do on the web?

Thanks.

You can do it right here!

http://www.pricescope.com/cutadviser.asp

Marian gave you a brilliant writeup on how to evaluate a diamond, if you follow her method that should really help you.

Thanks, Miss Lorelei

 

[Ellen]

Date: 7/31/2009 1:07:14 PM
Author: Ellen

Date: 7/31/2009 12:57:39 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
HI Ellen,
In my experience neither 53 or 57% table would look ''small'' to the naked eye.... especially someone not trained to calculate table size.
However if you looked with a loupe the difference would be easy for many people to see.

ETA- Iwanna- your diamond looks AMAZING!!
I''ll bet I''d have my socks knocked off if I saw it in person!

Then David, why did you feel the need to say earlier, ''personally I''ve always felt that 57% can be lovely...but IMO makes a table look small''? We are almost always speaking to consumers about looking at stones with the naked eye. No need to answer.

Date: 7/31/2009 2:14:41 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
HI Ellen,
I mentioned it because the OP had the impression there was something lesser about a diamond simply because it had a 60% table.

Yes the differences are subtle- however if someone had been shown both, and wanted to learn how to see the difference it would be fairly easy to show them.

Just so we don''t lose track of who said what when.

Hmm, that''s not what I got out of that. It seemed you were just making a random comment that was a contradiction of what you said earlier. If that''s not the case, maybe try and word it better next time, someone might get confused!

 

[loverock]

Thanks Marian & Lorelei!

I will go do my HCA right now and let you know the result.

Loverock

 

[Ellen]

Date: 7/31/2009 4:25:50 PM
Author: glitterata


It is very unlikely that the difference you''re seeing has anything to do with the color. D and F color should look the same from the top, and most people wouldn''t be able to detect the difference even from the side. Even if you can detect the color difference, F color would not make the stone look less ''full of light.'' What would make that difference would be the cut.

It sounds as if you don''t like the cut of the new stone as much as the old one (it''s less ''full of light''), so I would go on looking until you find one you love.

Ditto. My thoughts exactly.

 

[loverock]

OK, I just ran the HCA on this diamond, the result come back at 3.3

it seems that it falls under the GIA EX, but way off the AGS Ideal

 

[Ellen]

Date: 7/31/2009 5:35:36 PM
Author: loverock
OK, I just ran the HCA on this diamond, the result come back at 3.3

it seems that it falls under the GIA EX, but way off the AGS Ideal

I knew that, but didn''t want to tell you and possibly sway what you might be thinking about the diamond. However, what you''ve seen and described, means more to me than the HCA score. You have noticed it''s not as bright, that could very well be the cut, it''s not the color or size, as glitter pointed out. A diamond should be bright, no matter how big.

And, you might notice a decrease in fire, going from the smaller to larger table.

Unfortunately, just because a stone has a GIA EX cut, it doesn''t automatically mean a great stone. Their EX range is very broad, and includes some not so great combinations. However, I''ve seen some not so hot AGS stones too. So it''s really a case by case basis.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 7/31/2009 4:25:50 PM
Author: glitterata

Date: 7/31/2009 3:50:26 PM

Author: loverock

Karl,



My current ring is a D 1.26 ct, EX sym, EX polish, no cutting grade.



The 2 ct doesn''t seems to be as full of light as my current one, but then i think it is because it is a ''F'', and also because it is bigger, it will look a little different...



Loverock

It is very unlikely that the difference you''re seeing has anything to do with the color. D and F color should look the same from the top, and most people wouldn''t be able to detect the difference even from the side. Even if you can detect the color difference, F color would not make the stone look less ''full of light.'' What would make that difference would be the cut.


It sounds as if you don''t like the cut of the new stone as much as the old one (it''s less ''full of light''), so I would go on looking until you find one you love.

It is the cut
ditto to the rest

 

[Big daddy 48]

Let me put it to you like this in very simple words: You are not going to notice a .3 difference. A 60% is actually a perfect way to buy if your at the right store. The prices change as your going up from 57% to 60% and they are in your favor. It will capture the light perfectly. When I recently purchased my bride to be''s stone it took me days and many stores. I finally had a 3 hour sit down where I closed a deal and they really furnished me with an education that I feel should have been paid for!

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 7/31/2009 5:50:59 PM
Author: Ellen

Date: 7/31/2009 5:35:36 PM
Author: loverock
OK, I just ran the HCA on this diamond, the result come back at 3.3

it seems that it falls under the GIA EX, but way off the AGS Ideal

I knew that, but didn''t want to tell you and possibly sway what you might be thinking about the diamond. However, what you''ve seen and described, means more to me than the HCA score. You have noticed it''s not as bright, that could very well be the cut, it''s not the color or size, as glitter pointed out. A diamond should be bright, no matter how big.

And, you might notice a decrease in fire, going from the smaller to larger table.

Unfortunately, just because a stone has a GIA EX cut, it doesn''t automatically mean a great stone. Their EX range is very broad, and includes some not so great combinations. However, I''ve seen some not so hot AGS stones too. So it''s really a case by case basis.

Ditto, you might notice a difference in personality perhaps with a bigger stone but not in overall brightness and beauty if well cut.

 

[loverock]

So does anybody know why it only scroe 3.3 on the HCA? table too big? crown too high? I thought H&A pattern would always make a great stone.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 8/1/2009 8:14:45 AM
Author: loverock
So does anybody know why it only scroe 3.3 on the HCA? table too big? crown too high? I thought H&A pattern would always make a great stone.

The crown and pavilion angles mainly account for the score, they aren't the best fit for each other. If the pavilion angle was shallower, say around 40.6 that would be a better fit for that crown angle, or conversely a shallower crown would be a better fit for that pavilion angle, around 34.5 as an example. And because a diamond shows a h&a pattern means the optical symmetry is good, not necessarily that the diamond will be a great performer.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 8/1/2009 8:40:16 AM
Author: Lorelei

The crown and pavilion angles mainly account for the score, they aren''t the best fit for each other. If the pavilion angle was shallower, say around 40.6 that would be a better fit for that crown angle, or conversely a shallower crown would be a better fit for that pavilion angle, around 34.5 as an example. And because a diamond shows a h&a pattern means the optical symmetry is good, not necessarily that the diamond will be a great performer.

Ditto. If you play with the HCA, and just change the table to 54, it gets slightly better at 2.5. If you just change the pavilion angle to 40.6 it gets a 2. But if you change the pavilion angle to 40.6 and the table to 54, it jumps down to 1.2. Or, change just the crown to 34 and it gets a 1.8. Much better. Everything has to work together, it''s a balancing act.


And here''s some info on H&A.

http://diamonds.pricescope.com/hna.asp

Diamonds with H&A patterns are frequently among those with top performance. However there is no proof yet that the absence of H&A optical symmetry (or any other type of pattern) means that a diamond will have lesser performance, as it’s the overall geometry of a diamond that determines its light performance. It is possible to produce H&A diamonds with inferior performance

 

[elle_chris]

Date: 7/31/2009 3:50:26 PM
Author: loverock
Karl,

My current ring is a D 1.26 ct, EX sym, EX polish, no cutting grade.

The 2 ct doesn''t seems to be as full of light as my current one, but then i think it is because it is a ''F'', and also because it is bigger, it will look a little different...

Loverock

Like others have said, it''s not the color but rather the cut.

Honestly, I think this is as perfect example of why you can''t always trust your eyes. I think you''re lucky you had your e-ring to compare the new stone to, so you were able to see the differences in performance. Most people don''t have that luxury and wind up buying a less than stellar stone.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 8/1/2009 9:16:00 AM
Author: elle_chris

Honestly, I think this is as perfect example of why you can''t always trust your eyes. I think you''re lucky you had your e-ring to compare the new stone to, so you were able to see the differences in performance. Most people don''t have that luxury and wind up buying a less than stellar stone.

Excellent point elle.

 

[loverock]

Agree.

In fact, I am going to go to the store and take another look at this diamond. As I mentioned, I didn''t feel it was as full of light as my current one, but it did out-performed 3 other diamonds were shown to me. one was a D GIA VG cut, one was an E GIA VG cut and another was also an F GIA EX cut.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 8/1/2009 9:37:19 AM
Author: loverock

Agree.

In fact, I am going to go to the store and take another look at this diamond. As I mentioned, I didn't feel it was as full of light as my current one, but it did out-performed 3 other diamonds were shown to me. one was a D GIA VG cut, one was an E GIA VG cut and another was also an F GIA EX cut.

The only problem with that is, we don't know exactly how well cut they are (as illustrated, the grade doesn't tell the whole story). If they are poorly cut, yours will naturally look better.

Not that they are a given either, but does the jeweler carry any AGS0 stones, to compare this potential stone to?

 

[risingsun]

Date: 8/1/2009 9:16:00 AM
Author: elle_chris

Date: 7/31/2009 3:50:26 PM
Author: loverock
Karl,

My current ring is a D 1.26 ct, EX sym, EX polish, no cutting grade.

The 2 ct doesn't seems to be as full of light as my current one, but then i think it is because it is a 'F', and also because it is bigger, it will look a little different...

Loverock

Like others have said, it's not the color but rather the cut.

Honestly, I think this is as perfect example of why you can't always trust your eyes. I think you're lucky you had your e-ring to compare the new stone to, so you were able to see the differences in performance. Most people don't have that luxury and wind up buying a less than stellar stone.

I agree with Elle on tihs point. This is why I put a diamond through my own personal checklist, which includes both objective and subjective evaluation. Regardless of the size and color, a well cut diamond will be full of light and fire and sparkle. You shouldn't have to settle for less. It just may take some more looking at well cut stones.

 

[elle_chris]

RisingSun- I think we agree on most points! there was only one I remember that we disagreed on!

(and that one''s still up in the air for me (runs and hides) )

 

[risingsun]

Date: 8/1/2009 12:55:08 PM
Author: elle_chris
RisingSun- I think we agree on most points! there was only one I remember that we disagreed on!

(and that one's still up in the air for me (runs and hides) )

I also think we agree on most points

I thought we reached a meeting of the minds on that one other topic

No matter, you're one of my PS friends

 

[loverock]

Thanks for everybody''s input and help here!

I went to the store yesterday and took another look at this stone. This time, I went with my hubby, my kids and one of my friends.

we did a blind pick comparison of this stone over a D color 58% table, EX/EX/EX. Surprisingly, everyone including the salesman blindly picked this stone.

So I decided to go for it. I felt the price was fair.

I am so excited. I took a few pictures to share with you. Coming up soon!