ISIS attack in Phili using stolen police firearm.

[redwood66]

Oh for pete's sake you just want to argue about everything. I was teasing kenny. Just like he does to me and everyone else. I don't take him seriously.

Edit - you want to argue with people who don't think like you.

 

[AGBF]

Oh for pete's sake you just want to argue about everything.

I am editing out my angry response.

 

[redwood66]

Oh for pete's sake you just want to argue about everything.

Why on earth would I want to argue with a peach like you? You are never at all abrasive yourself, are you?

Sure I am. Like lots of others here. But I am also nice too. Just like you.

 

[AGBF]

Oh for pete's sake you just want to argue about everything.

Why on earth would I want to argue with a peach like you? You are never at all abrasive yourself, are you?

Sure I am. Like lots of others here. But I am also nice too. Just like you.

I apologize.

 

[redwood66]

Oh for pete's sake you just want to argue about everything.

Why on earth would I want to argue with a peach like you? You are never at all abrasive yourself, are you?

Sure I am. Like lots of others here. But I am also nice too. Just like you.

I apologize.

I wholeheartedly accept and apologize as well. This is a subject that not all agree on but we do have personal views that we defend vigorously. Sometimes the internet makes us sound terrible when that is not the intent at all.

 

[AprilBaby]

Ah! I get the meat joke!

 

[missy]

http://www.cfr.org/society-and-culture/us-gun-policy-global-comparisons/p29735

http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-leads-world-in-mass-shootings-1443905359

http://www.humanosphere.org/science/2015/10/visualizing-gun-deaths-comparing-u-s-rest-world/

 

[AGBF]

http://www.cfr.org/society-and-culture/us-gun-policy-global-comparisons/p29735

http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-leads-world-in-mass-shootings-1443905359

http://www.humanosphere.org/science/2015/10/visualizing-gun-deaths-comparing-u-s-rest-world/

Thank you for posting these links, missy. I have checked them out but not, yet, read the articles fully. They look good to me. I appreciate your efforts to shed light, not heat.

Deb

 

[AGBF]

Oh for pete's sake you just want to argue about everything.

Why on earth would I want to argue with a peach like you? You are never at all abrasive yourself, are you?

Sure I am. Like lots of others here. But I am also nice too. Just like you.

I apologize.

I wholeheartedly accept and apologize as well. This is a subject that not all agree on but we do have personal views that we defend vigorously. Sometimes the internet makes us sound terrible when that is not the intent at all.

I went to bed before seeing your response to me, redwood. I find you to be a generally helpful poster, really. You seem (to me) to be someone who will put up information in a thread just to be of assistance, not always to put forward an agenda. I actually find you to be a very pleasant woman. I regret being nasty and think you were very gracious in response.

Thank you.

Deb

 

[VRBeauty]

I'm not an Islamophobe and I'm not an alarmist, but - if we're starting to see the emergence of home-grown* ISIL supporters who are willing to act on those beliefs, we're talking about a problem that's larger than gun ownership and gun control.

 

[redwood66]

I went to bed before seeing your response to me, redwood. I find you to be a generally helpful poster, really. You seem (to me) to be someone who will put up information in a thread just to be of assistance, not always to put forward an agenda. I actually find you to be a very pleasant woman. I regret being nasty and think you were very gracious in response.

Thank you.

Deb

This was quite sweet of you and is very much appreciated.

I really don't have an agenda other than to enjoy life and be the best person I can be. But that is hard some days.

 

[momhappy]

Philadelphia Police Captain James Clark said the suspect, identified as Edward Archer, "stated that he pledges his allegiance to Islamic State, he follows Allah and that is the reason he was called upon to do this."
....
The suspect used a stolen police firearm and fired shots at close-range at Officer Jesse Hartnett while he was in his police vehicle Thursday night, police said. The weapon was stolen in 2013, police said.

https://gma.yahoo.com/man-accused-shooting-philly-cop-pledged-allegiance-isis-184753565--abc-news-topstories.html

And yet didn't the mayor of Philly say that this has nothing to do with being Muslim I thought I read that the suspect actually claimed that he did it in the name of Islam.
This is all part of the problem IMO - this denial that the problem even exists. People are afraid to call it what it is even when it's all spelled out for them. I agree with the member who said that this problem is bigger than a gun ownership/gun control problem...

 

[packrat]

There's a problem w/people's hearts.

 

[Maria D]

Philadelphia Police Captain James Clark said the suspect, identified as Edward Archer, "stated that he pledges his allegiance to Islamic State, he follows Allah and that is the reason he was called upon to do this."
....
The suspect used a stolen police firearm and fired shots at close-range at Officer Jesse Hartnett while he was in his police vehicle Thursday night, police said. The weapon was stolen in 2013, police said.

https://gma.yahoo.com/man-accused-shooting-philly-cop-pledged-allegiance-isis-184753565--abc-news-topstories.html

And yet didn't the mayor of Philly say that this has nothing to do with being Muslim I thought I read that the suspect actually claimed that he did it in the name of Islam.
This is all part of the problem IMO - this denial that the problem even exists. People are afraid to call it what it is even when it's all spelled out for them. I agree with the member who said that this problem is bigger than a gun ownership/gun control problem...

Robert Lewis Dear is a fundamentalist Christian who, according to those who knew him, read the bible from cover to cover. Without any confusion at all, I can say that being Christian had nothing to do with his deadly rampage at Planned Parenthood. I say this as an atheist who has no use whatsoever for christianity or any other religion. I say this, again without confusion, because the vast majority of Christians (almost all in fact) would never do this, even if they believe wholeheartedly that abortion is evil. I personally know so many Christians who are decent, caring people so it's impossible for me to think that Robert Lewis Dear's christianity is the problem.

I also personally know many Muslims who are decent, caring people. Of course, that's an infinitesimally small fraction of the number of Muslims in the world. However, only a little unbiased research is needed to be convinced that the vast majority of Muslims do NOT support ISIS.

I'm not confused at all. Edward Archer and Robert Lewis Dear are both dangerous nut jobs with guns. Their professed religion had nothing to do with their crimes.

 

[momhappy]

His religion had nothing to do with his crime? How so?
And by the way, this isn't an attack on Muslims, so there's no need to clarify that some of them are decent human beings. That's part of the problem. Admitting that Islamic extremism exists does not mean that one thinks that all Muslims are bad. It's the same thing with gun owners (not all of them are bad) - some gun owners are decent, law-abiding human beings (others are not), but we don't categorize an entire group based on the actions of a few.
If you are saying that you commit X, Y, or Z in the name of your religion (like Edward Archer) , your religion most certainly has something to do with your crime...

 

[Maria D]

Attack is too strong a word, but your words certainly denigrate Muslims. You wrote: "And yet didn't the mayor of Philly say that this has nothing to do with being Muslim "

You did not write that the mayor said this has nothing to do with being a fundamentalist Islamic terrorist. You're the one who purports to be confused. I'm saying that I'm not in the least confused, and I already fully explained why. Perhaps you really are confused, or maybe you are one of the many (not necessarily on PS but in the US) that feels the need to spread divisiveness. I feel the need to call that divisive behavior out, sorry.

 

[redwood66]

I think part of the fear people have is that Christians are not actively recruiting via the internet people to commit jihad on infidels. ISIS and other Muslim groups are doing this and it seems, according to the FBI, they are doing a good job. IMHO this issue does not allow a direct comparison of these two terrorists. I don't believe Dear pronounced doing his crime in the name of Christianity and any Christian I know denounces any such act vehemently. My experience with the Muslim religion is very limited so I cannot speak to it's tenets or the majority of it's followers. Having only spent "time" (pun intended) with "maximum security" muslim inmates, I observed their complete disrespect of women personally to the point that it interfered with my job duties and felt unsafe. Please understand that I do not pigeonhole an entire religion for the acts of the depraved in their numbers, but the percentages of those depraved within the religion are much higher than in others.

 

[packrat]

How about...his "perception" of his chosen religion, rather than his religion itself? Catholics have committed atrocities, Christians.

 

[redwood66]

How about...his "perception" of his chosen religion, rather than his religion itself? Catholics have committed atrocities, Christians.

This is true and I am in no way excusing his acts. He is a terrorist. Like McVeigh and others.

 

[AGBF]

I think part of the fear people have is that Christians are not actively recruiting via the internet people to commit jihad on infidels. ISIS and other Muslim groups are doing this and it seems, according to the FBI, they are doing a good job.


IMHO this issue does not allow a direct comparison of these two terrorists.

I don't believe Dear pronounced doing his crime in the name of Christianity and any Christian I know denounces any such act vehemently.

My experience with the Muslim religion is very limited so I cannot speak to it's tenets or the majority of it's followers. Having only spent "time" (pun intended) with "maximum security" muslim inmates, I observed their complete disrespect of women personally to the point that it interfered with my job duties and felt unsafe. Please understand that I do not pigeonhole an entire religion for the acts of the depraved in their numbers, but the percentages of those depraved within the religion are much higher than in others.

I think you made excellent points here, redwood, and I only wish that other Americans were as intelligent and open minded. Christianity did a lot of recruiting to fight the infidels before there was an Internet, back when the Crusades were launched and when the Inquisitions were held. In 1492 Ferdinand and Isabella expelled the Muslims and the Jews from Spain and the Ottoman Empire (which was Muslim) took them in where they, and Christians as well, lived in peace and tolerance for centuries, until World War I and the rise of nationalism.

One cannot judge the three great monotheistic religions based on the actions of a few individuals in a few years of time. One has to look at the long haul.

Deb/AGBF

 

[Maria D]

I think part of the fear people have is that Christians are not actively recruiting via the internet people to commit jihad on infidels. ISIS and other Muslim groups are doing this and it seems, according to the FBI, they are doing a good job. IMHO this issue does not allow a direct comparison of these two terrorists. I don't believe Dear pronounced doing his crime in the name of Christianity and any Christian I know denounces any such act vehemently. My experience with the Muslim religion is very limited so I cannot speak to it's tenets or the majority of it's followers. Having only spent "time" (pun intended) with "maximum security" muslim inmates, I observed their complete disrespect of women personally to the point that it interfered with my job duties and felt unsafe. Please understand that I do not pigeonhole an entire religion for the acts of the depraved in their numbers, but the percentages of those depraved within the religion are much higher than in others.

I, on the other hand, spend time with many Muslim teens (as their teacher) and less often, with their parents and extended families. I've never encountered a situation where someone I know has supported one of these extremist groups; instead they denounce them. This the view of the majority of Muslims worldwide http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/...s-society-overview/#extremism-widely-rejected.

I feel that language is important and saying that a crime took place because someone is Muslim is very different from talking about the problem of religious extremist terrorists. President George W. Bush understood this very well.

 

[redwood66]

I think part of the fear people have is that Christians are not actively recruiting via the internet people to commit jihad on infidels. ISIS and other Muslim groups are doing this and it seems, according to the FBI, they are doing a good job.


IMHO this issue does not allow a direct comparison of these two terrorists.

I don't believe Dear pronounced doing his crime in the name of Christianity and any Christian I know denounces any such act vehemently.

My experience with the Muslim religion is very limited so I cannot speak to it's tenets or the majority of it's followers. Having only spent "time" (pun intended) with "maximum security" muslim inmates, I observed their complete disrespect of women personally to the point that it interfered with my job duties and felt unsafe. Please understand that I do not pigeonhole an entire religion for the acts of the depraved in their numbers, but the percentages of those depraved within the religion are much higher than in others.

I think you made excellent points here, redwood, and I only wish that other Americans were as intelligent and open minded. Christianity did a lot of recruiting to fight the infidels before there was an Internet, back when the Crusades were launched and when the Inquisitions were held. In 1492 Ferdinand and Isabella expelled the Muslims and the Jews from Spain and the Ottoman Empire (which was Muslim) took them in where they, and Christians as well, lived in peace and tolerance for centuries, until World War I and the rise of nationalism.

One cannot judge the three great monotheistic religions based on the actions of a few individuals in a few years of time. One has to look at the long haul.

Deb/AGBF

Granted. But at some point we have to deal with the terrorism that is happening today. You state "a few years time" but the killing in the name of religion in the middle east has been going on for much, much longer and still continues today. And when it propagates to affect our national security we have to take action.

 

[redwood66]

I've never encountered a situation where someone I know has supported one of these extremist groups; instead they denounce them.

I feel that language is important and saying that a crime took place because someone is Muslim is very different from talking about the problem of religious extremist terrorists. President George W. Bush understood this very well.

I am very glad to hear this.

Yes, President Bush did understand the necessity to not malign an entire section of the world's population.


http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/...s-society-overview/#extremism-widely-rejected

This portion of the article concerns me as it cannot happen in the US even for their population.

Overwhelming percentages of Muslims in many countries want Islamic law (sharia) to be the official law of the land, according to a worldwide survey by the Pew Research Center. But many supporters of sharia say it should apply only to their country’s Muslim population.


And the other 19% concern me in this quote:

American Muslims are even more likely than Muslims in other countries to firmly reject violence in the name of Islam. In the U.S., about eight-in-ten Muslims (81%) say that suicide bombing and similar acts targeting civilians are never justified. Across the globe, a median of roughly seven-in-ten Muslims (72%) agrees.

 

[momhappy]

Attack is too strong a word, but your words certainly denigrate Muslims. You wrote: "And yet didn't the mayor of Philly say that this has nothing to do with being Muslim "

You did not write that the mayor said this has nothing to do with being a fundamentalist Islamic terrorist. You're the one who purports to be confused. I'm saying that I'm not in the least confused, and I already fully explained why. Perhaps you really are confused, or maybe you are one of the many (not necessarily on PS but in the US) that feels the need to spread divisiveness. I feel the need to call that divisive behavior out, sorry.

I find it interesting that you can point fingers at me and call me divisive based on the small bits of information posted here, but you are entitled to your opinions. Islamic terrorism is, by definition, terrorist acts committed by Muslim groups or individuals who profess Islamist motivation. Since you said that you have already explained yourself, the I suppose our dialogue is complete and there's not further discussion between us that is required

 

[redwood66]

I think part of the fear people have is that Christians are not actively recruiting via the internet people to commit jihad on infidels. ISIS and other Muslim groups are doing this and it seems, according to the FBI, they are doing a good job. IMHO this issue does not allow a direct comparison of these two terrorists. I don't believe Dear pronounced doing his crime in the name of Christianity and any Christian I know denounces any such act vehemently. My experience with the Muslim religion is very limited so I cannot speak to it's tenets or the majority of it's followers. Having only spent "time" (pun intended) with "maximum security" muslim inmates, I observed their complete disrespect of women personally to the point that it interfered with my job duties and felt unsafe. Please understand that I do not pigeonhole an entire religion for the acts of the depraved in their numbers, but the percentages of those depraved within the religion are much higher than in others.

I, on the other hand, spend time with many Muslim teens (as their teacher) and less often, with their parents and extended families. I've never encountered a situation where someone I know has supported one of these extremist groups; instead they denounce them. This the view of the majority of Muslims worldwide http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/...s-society-overview/#extremism-widely-rejected.

I feel that language is important and saying that a crime took place because someone is Muslim is very different from talking about the problem of religious extremist terrorists. President George W. Bush understood this very well.

This article does not sway me into thinking that Islam is a peaceful religion. I won't paste everything but here are a few things that stand out. Thank you for posting it Maria_D.

I don't even know what to say about the bolded parts.

In South Asia, support for applying religious law to family and property disputes is coupled with strong backing for severe criminal punishments, such as cutting off the hands of thieves (median of 81%) and the death penalty for Muslims who renounce their faith (76%). In the Middle East-North Africa region, medians of more than half favor strict criminal penalties (57%) and the execution of those who convert from Islam to another faith (56%).

By contrast, fewer Muslims back severe criminal punishments in Southeast Asia (median of 46%), Central Asia (38%), and Southern and Eastern Europe (36%). Even smaller medians in these same regions (between 13% and 27%) say apostates should face the death penalty for leaving Islam to join another religion.

Edited to add: I do realize we are teetering on thin ice here with the posting rules.

 

[kenny]

There are good and bad people in all religions, also among agnostics and atheists.

It's as yucky to pin extremist terrorism on all of Islam as it is to pin the child molestation crimes on all of Catholicism.

 

[AGBF]

I think part of the fear people have is that Christians are not actively recruiting via the internet people to commit jihad on infidels. ISIS and other Muslim groups are doing this and it seems, according to the FBI, they are doing a good job.


IMHO this issue does not allow a direct comparison of these two terrorists.

I don't believe Dear pronounced doing his crime in the name of Christianity and any Christian I know denounces any such act vehemently.

My experience with the Muslim religion is very limited so I cannot speak to it's tenets or the majority of it's followers. Having only spent "time" (pun intended) with "maximum security" muslim inmates, I observed their complete disrespect of women personally to the point that it interfered with my job duties and felt unsafe. Please understand that I do not pigeonhole an entire religion for the acts of the depraved in their numbers, but the percentages of those depraved within the religion are much higher than in others.

I think you made excellent points here, redwood, and I only wish that other Americans were as intelligent and open minded. Christianity did a lot of recruiting to fight the infidels before there was an Internet, back when the Crusades were launched and when the Inquisitions were held. In 1492 Ferdinand and Isabella expelled the Muslims and the Jews from Spain and the Ottoman Empire (which was Muslim) took them in where they, and Christians as well, lived in peace and tolerance for centuries, until World War I and the rise of nationalism.

One cannot judge the three great monotheistic religions based on the actions of a few individuals in a few years of time. One has to look at the long haul.

Granted. But at some point we have to deal with the terrorism that is happening today. You state "a few years time" but the killing in the name of religion in the middle east has been going on for much, much longer and still continues today. And when it propagates to affect our national security we have to take action.

I believe you are mixing up two things, redwood: the notion of whether Islam is inherently a more violent religion than Christianity and whether Islam is currently of more danger to the world.

My take on this has been that in the long haul Islam, as interpreted by the Ottoman Turks (as opposed to-say-by the Wahabi sect in Saudi Arabia) has, historically, shown itself to be quite peaceful compared to Christianity.

That does not mean that right now there are not violent, militant factions of the Islamic world that are not endangering our country and that I feel should be neutralized.

 

[redwood66]

I think part of the fear people have is that Christians are not actively recruiting via the internet people to commit jihad on infidels. ISIS and other Muslim groups are doing this and it seems, according to the FBI, they are doing a good job.


IMHO this issue does not allow a direct comparison of these two terrorists.

I don't believe Dear pronounced doing his crime in the name of Christianity and any Christian I know denounces any such act vehemently.

My experience with the Muslim religion is very limited so I cannot speak to it's tenets or the majority of it's followers. Having only spent "time" (pun intended) with "maximum security" muslim inmates, I observed their complete disrespect of women personally to the point that it interfered with my job duties and felt unsafe. Please understand that I do not pigeonhole an entire religion for the acts of the depraved in their numbers, but the percentages of those depraved within the religion are much higher than in others.

I think you made excellent points here, redwood, and I only wish that other Americans were as intelligent and open minded. Christianity did a lot of recruiting to fight the infidels before there was an Internet, back when the Crusades were launched and when the Inquisitions were held. In 1492 Ferdinand and Isabella expelled the Muslims and the Jews from Spain and the Ottoman Empire (which was Muslim) took them in where they, and Christians as well, lived in peace and tolerance for centuries, until World War I and the rise of nationalism.

One cannot judge the three great monotheistic religions based on the actions of a few individuals in a few years of time. One has to look at the long haul.

Granted. But at some point we have to deal with the terrorism that is happening today. You state "a few years time" but the killing in the name of religion in the middle east has been going on for much, much longer and still continues today. And when it propagates to affect our national security we have to take action.

I believe you are mixing up two things, redwood: the notion of whether Islam is inherently a more violent religion than Christianity and whether Islam is currently of more danger to the world.

My take on this has been that in the long haul Islam, as interpreted by the Ottoman Turks (as opposed to-say-by the Wahabi sect in Saudi Arabia) has, historically, shown itself to be quite peaceful compared to Christianity.

That does not mean that right now there are not violent, militant factions of the Islamic world that are not endangering our country and that I feel should be neutralized.

After reading Maria_D's article I am inclined to believe both of your comments rather than mixing them up. It is disturbing to me that so many would believe this way. I do not wish for the history of Christianity nor the current violence perpetrated by those in the name of Islam.

 

[lulu]

There are good and bad people in all religions, also among agnostics and atheists.

It's as yucky to pin extremist terrorism on all of Islam as it is to pin the child molestation crimes on all of Catholicism.

Those damn gun wielding suicide bombing agnostics. We have to stop them!

 

[missy]

There are good and bad people in all religions, also among agnostics and atheists.

It's as yucky to pin extremist terrorism on all of Islam as it is to pin the child molestation crimes on all of Catholicism.

Those damn gun wielding suicide bombing agnostics. We have to stop them!

LOL and touché. Let's face it. A lot of bad and evil acts have been perpetrated against many in the name of religion. Whatever that religion may be.
http://www.thetoptens.com/atrocities-committed-name-religion/


Religion (not interpreted in the extreme that is) of course is not to blame but just used as the excuse. Upsetting nonetheless.